 So, as it becomes more and more likely that Joe Biden will be the Democratic Party's nominee, it's not over yet, but it's not looking good. You know, we're all kind of asking ourselves going forward, what are we going to do? And I'm so upset that we even have to have this conversation again, because we never stopped really having this conversation. And I don't want to talk about this again, but here we are. So, the question is, what do Bernie Sanders supporters do? Do they fall in line and support the Democratic Party nominee? Or do they refuse them that vote, refuse them power because they continue to take Bernie Sanders and his movement and younger voters, you know, more broadly speaking, for granted? What do you do? So, there's a lot of people with varying opinions. And I saw a really interesting conversation on TYT when they were covering the election. Cenk Uyer was talking to Crystal Ball of the Hill Rising, and they had a disagreement about this. Crystal Ball was very much on the side of, look, Vote Blue, no matter who is a con, whereas Cenk Uyer was talking about the necessity of harm reduction. And her comments here kind of blew up online, and she got a little bit of hate. And this is really frustrating, because I'm a new fan of Crystal Ball. I heard of her before when she was on MSNBC, but I really started to get to know and love her watching Rising, and I also, I picked up her book, haven't got a chance to read it yet. No, but in all seriousness, I really respect her opinion here, and I think that she makes a nuanced point. And I want to play what she said, and then I'll tell you a little bit of the response from the usual suspects who wants Bernie Sanders supporters to fall in line, and then I will tell you where I fall. But if Joe Biden is the nominee, I think we've also got to realize that this whole Vote Blue, no matter who thing, is a complete con. Because what do we see? Biden's already on TV with Lawrence O'Donnell saying he vetoed Medicare for all. I mean, they spit in the faces of this movement of young people and working class people who believe in these principles. They call them brown shirts. They say they're toxic Bernie bros. And then demand that they just all turn around and pledge to vote for Joe no matter what. Well, I don't think that we should be so easy in giving up our votes like that. Look, these young people have organized around the Green New Deal, were organized around Medicare for all. The moment that they say, you know what, Joe? It's fine. You can spit in our faces. You can promise to veto Medicare for all, but we're still gonna turn out and vote for you is the moment that you lose any kind of power in this situation. And look, it is a grim situation of Joe Biden as the nominee, but the least that this movement can do is hold on to some modicum of power to say no. You don't just get our vote. You have to at least try to earn it, and I think that's a really important message moving forward. But Chris, I gotta ask, what's our alternative? I mean, I don't think it's tenable for progressives to threaten to vote for Trump. I think that's nuts. I would never do that. I would never vote for Donald Trump either, but you can leave it blank. As of today, I'm an undecided voter because here's the thing, Jake, Donald Trump is awful the next Republican will be awful. And if they always can say, look, you've got to vote for us no matter what you've got no other choice, then they're always going to treat us like this because you have no power in that situation. If you're just going to show up and vote for them anyway. So I know people aren't going to want to hear that, but I think that is the reality of the situation that we face right now. So regardless if you agree or disagree with her, the point that she's making is absolutely valid. If you continue to fall in line and vote for Democrats, every single election, they will continue to take you for granted. It's like if you're in this relationship with an abusive spouse and you let him or her know that you're never going to leave, they're going to continue to abuse you and cheat on you and hit you like it's just this never ending cycle. So at some point you have to be strong enough to draw a line in the sand and say enough is enough, I'm leaving. That's the point that Crystal Ball is making. Now again, you don't have to agree with what she's saying, but the point that she's making is absolutely valid. Now some people on Twitter freaked out about what she said, and I just want to show you one response that stood out to me. This is from Bakari Sellers who responded to someone who called her a hack. And he states, this is a sad commentary by Crystal Ball. It comes from a place of privilege that one can afford to leave it blank. Okay, so I mean that's his opinion and that's fine. But what I expect is consistency. So knowing that that's his view, I'm assuming that he took issue with this Biden delegate saying she would never vote for Bernie Sanders. Linda, you said in an interview last month because of the experiences you've had online in particular with some Bernie supporters, you said that if he were to become the Democratic nominee, you said you would not vote for him. Absolutely not. So that means you would be, what, voting Trump, sitting at home? I'm going to vote blue all the way down except for President. So you're okay with a second Trump term? I'm absolutely not okay with it, but I'm also almost probably equally terrified and traumatized by the prospect of a Sanders presidency right now. To the point where you would be okay with a Trump second term? I'm not okay with it. Well, by definition, you would be if you didn't. I'm fighting like hell to make sure that Biden is a nominee, so we won't have to deal with him. I accept that. I'm asking the hypothetical, which I will also ask Linda. If it is Bernie Sanders' nominee, you will not vote for him. No, not going to. Even if it means a Trump second term. I wonder what McCarrie Sellers had to say about that. Oh, that's right. He said nothing about that. Because this standard of, you know, fall in line, vote blue no matter who, it's only applied to the left. It's never applied to centrists. They're never held to that same standard. Like how often do you hear on MSNBC the Puma Movement back in 2008 where Hillary Clinton supporters vowed to support John McCain over Barack Obama? Like that's worse than people voting green, you know, in their view, supposedly, right? But I mean, they vowed to support John McCain and more Hillary Clinton voters voted for John McCain in 2008 than Bernie Sanders supporters voted green in 2016. That's just the fact, but nobody ever brings that up because it's always the left. This is a standard that's only applied to the left. And the reason why this standard is only applied to the left is because if we start to wake up and realize the amount of power that we have with our votes, the amount of leverage we actually have, then that's really bad news for the Democratic Party. In fact, Lawrence O'Donnell of CNN once said this very same thing. If you want to pull the party, the major party that is closest to the way you're thinking, to what you're thinking, you must, you must show them that you're capable of not voting for them. If you don't show them you're capable of not voting for them, they don't have to listen to you. I promise you that. I worked within the Democratic Party. I didn't listen or have to listen to anything on the left while I was working in the Democratic Party because the left had nowhere to go. The left had nowhere to go. Now ask yourself this. When Bernie Sanders landslided in Nevada and it looked like he was going to emerge as the presumptive nominee after Super Tuesday at that point in the race, were we hearing the pundits on CNN and MSNBC talk about the importance of falling in line and supporting Bernie Sanders and voting blue no matter who? No. In fact, if you tuned into MSNBC, I did segments on this. You saw them having a complete meltdown with James Carville saying, Putin got what he wanted. This is great. Advocating that they're probably not going to fall in line to support Bernie Sanders. So why is it that whenever the centrist is winning, that's when we have to talk about vote blue no matter who, but when a progressive is winning, not that big of a deal. Do you remember in 2018 when Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, she won the nomination, she won the Democratic Party primary against Joe Crowley and then he was still on the ballot for the Working Families Party and he refused to take himself off the ballot? Like where was this talk of unity then? In fact, everyone scolded AOC for calling out Joe Crowley's refusal to remove himself from the ballot. So you have to understand that this only goes one way. Vote blue no matter who, party unity is something that only applies to the left, nobody else. So that's why when it comes to me and where I stand, I am in total agreement with Crystal Ball. Vote blue no matter who is a scam. It's one big con to bully the left into compliance and I refuse to fall for it. I didn't fall for it in 2016 and I won't fall for it in 2020. As someone who was not vote blue no matter who, if you disagree with me, that's fine but I want you to at least understand my position and where I'm coming from. You can disagree with that but at least try to understand it. So for me, I had nieces and nephews who were voting for the first time in 2016 and the same is true again. I've got a lot of nieces and nephews and they were very demoralized after Bernie Sanders had lost and the same is going to be true this time. I haven't talked to them yet but getting them to vote in and of itself was a really huge obstacle. It was very difficult for me to do but the way that I convinced some of them to get out and vote was by telling them about Jill Stein as an option because they liked Jill Stein's policies and I voted for Jill Stein knowing that she didn't have a chance but this is why it's really important to not discourage people who come out to vote even if they're not voting for the person who you like because when I voted for Jill Stein I still voted Democrat down the ticket as did my nieces who came out and voted, right? I convinced my mom to still vote after she wanted to stay home and that helped Democrats down the ballot. Now look, I know that Jill Stein wasn't going to win but I was voting because I wanted the Green Party's agenda to be adopted by the Democratic Party and in ways I think that what I did possibly made an impact. I mean we're talking about student loan debt cancellation and a Green New Deal and I think that's largely because Jill Stein is the individual who introduced those policies. So I mean that is what I was thinking, right? I voted for Jill Stein because I wanted to help shape the agenda for progressives going forward and I came out to vote because I still wanted to make sure that Democrats were able to win in-house in Senate races and when voter apathy is such a huge issue, a huge issue, you can't yell at people for not voting who you want them to vote for like I think that if they're voting for Donald Trump then you can genuinely you know tell them that they're causing harm to themselves and the planet but if they're not supporting the Democratic Party nominee and they're on the left but they're still voting for Green just the fact that they're voting in and of itself is really really important because you can't have a democracy if people don't participate and with widespread voter apathy and people just staying home the fact that they're coming out to vote helps Democrats. The fact that Jill Stein was an option for people that helped down-ticket Democrats because if you know there was no option it was just Hillary or Trump like a lot of people a lot more people I think would have just stayed home and not helped Democrats down the ballot so I mean you've got to understand that we have to overcome a lot of obstacles voter apathy is one of them and I'll add a caveat that I am in a safe state I am in the deep blue state of Oregon most of us reside in either safe blue states or safe red states so in 2016 even though I voted for Jill Stein 100% of my state's electoral votes went to Hillary Clinton in 2020 100% of my state's electoral votes will again go to the Democratic Party's nominee so my vote is a message that I'm sending to the Democratic Party that they have to win me back if you want my vote fight for it fight for me and you'll win me back but I also take into account the importance of harm reduction right because if I were in a swing state if I were in the state of Florida me personally I would vote for Joe Biden I would have voted for Hillary Clinton because it's like we're fighting two different battles right between Democrats and Republicans both are extremely evil but Democrats they're poisoning us Republicans have a gun to our heads so the poison is gonna take a little bit of time to kick in but there is a really present and immediate danger with Republicans and a Trump presidency there is a Supreme Court seat that will likely be vacant within the next four years so I would vote for Joe Biden if I were in a swing state because even though he's a terrible candidate I do believe that we should do everything in our power to reduce harm but this is my decision every single person who's making this vote who's a lefty this is their decision to make and I think it's really important that you acknowledge the necessity of showing the Democratic Party that you have leverage and not just supporting every single shitty neoliberal corporatists every time and also weighing you know the need to reduce harm is Joe Biden better than Donald Trump yes of course that's the case right so rather than us hemorrhaging maybe we stopped the bleeding a little bit but that doesn't mean that the Democratic Party is good it's still we have to acknowledge that even if we're opting for this strategy of voting for the lesser two evils for purposes of harm reduction we are still giving up leverage as lefties we're telling the Democratic Party that they can use us and abuse us and we'll be there for them every single time like good little soldiers so what I want people to know is that this really is a lose-lose situation either way I mean it sucks right because if we're able to defeat Donald Trump then we get Joe Biden still get no progress when it comes to climate change he said he'd rejoin the Paris Climate Accord and that's it he just said on MSNBC in an interview with Lawrence O'Donnell that he'd veto Medicare for all so even in the situation you know where we defeat Donald Trump and hopefully kind of put the lid on fascism that's still a really bad predicament and having Joe Biden as the president will create even more desperation and more radicalization probably on the left and the right as people's lives don't improve and the next Donald Trump comes along so you know people are weighing the odds here and it's important that we all understand that this election people are making a big decision right it's not just about the next four years this is about the future of our country and it's a very tough decision like I told you my view and I'm sure that you have your own opinion like I am not vote blue no matter who my opinion on that would change if I lived in a swing state but even if I sucked it up and voted for Biden in a swing state I acknowledge that that's still harmful even if we beat Donald Trump because you know I'm relinquishing my power in a way to the Democratic Party and I am giving them permission essentially to use and abuse me so the situation is basically the worst-case scenario like it's not even as if we're getting someone who is marginally better than Joe Biden like Kamala Harris like at least she paid lip service to the idea of Medicare for all nobody believed her but just in terms of like moving the overton window that would have been a little bit better she would have been the first female president I mean Democrats just they picked the worst they picked the worst the only person who's worse is Bloomberg right and in that instance I mean you're really having a real conversation about who is worse Mike Bloomberg or Donald Trump that's how bad the situation is and in giving Democrats permission to keep nominating these harmful individuals who aren't going to do anything we're going to get to a point where we get a nominee like Bloomberg if not Bloomberg himself where you are genuinely asking yourself who's worse Mike Bloomberg or Donald Trump so the situation itself is scary and I just regardless of how you feel about vote blue no matter who this is your decision and I respect everybody's decision if you're voting for Donald Trump I don't respect that because that's causing direct harm but if you're voting for you know either Joe Biden or Green Party or you're staying home but you are choosing to support Democrats down the ticket so that way we can reign in the Republicans control I mean you've got to understand that there's so much at stake and this really is a terrible predicament that we find ourselves in for the second election in a row and it's not the fault of voters like you can you can voter shame people all you want that's not going to change anything and what I wish people on Twitter would realize and on YouTube would realize is that everything that happens here this is just this is I don't want to say it occurs in a vacuum but voters aren't paying attention to what's happening on on on YouTube and Twitter so by and large if we all got together and said we are not voting for Joe Biden no matter what's on Twitter and on YouTube that wouldn't really make that big of a difference in the grand scheme of things because at the end of the day the individuals who are ultimately going to decide the selection are the voters who stood home in 2016 the voters who flipped from Obama to Trump in 2016 they're going to be the deciders not us ultimately so this is a very personal decision and it's just there's no right answer it's it's it's awful we're stuck in a predicament where we have another Democratic Party nominee that's terrible but this time Joe Biden is worse than Hillary Clinton in a number of ways I think that ideologically he may be better but he's less competent than Hillary Clinton he has less charisma than Hillary Clinton there's no no exciting aspect we're not making history by electing the first female president there's nothing about Joe Biden so I really worry that in November even less people will be excited for Joe Biden than they were for Hillary Clinton and that means we get another four years of Donald Trump which is devastating absolutely devastating so if it truly is between Joe Biden and Donald Trump no matter who wins we all lose in a number of ways if Donald Trump wins then we try again in four years but put up with four years of immense damage with an emboldened Trump if Biden wins that's great we defeated Donald Trump hopefully this fascist threat will go away for a little bit but then we can't really put forward another progressive challenger until eight years down the line and Joe Biden does nothing and people get more radicalized and the Democratic Party doesn't change anything they don't have to be introspective because they were electorally successful so it sucks either way the situation sucks but I told you where I stand I agree with crystal ball I am not no matter who but I respect the position that Cenk has that you know this is about harm reduction so I not to both sides it I see where both people are coming from and I kind of like I see the value in both strategies but either way we all objectively have to realize that this vote blew no matter who strategy even if you're using this strategy at the ballot box it is giving Democrats permission to fuck you over so we're damned if we do damned if we don't regardless if we support Joe Biden we will still be blamed for his loss and not rewarded or given credit if he wins so um we just we have to be nuanced in making our decision and I told you where I stand and we'll just uh we'll go forward we'll keep fighting because we don't have a choice