 by an advocate who is a trained mediator and his insights on the topic of pre-institution mediation under the commercial law has been already been well received. Those who are from Karnataka have already watched his videos, though once the platform is virtual and once the sessions are uploaded on the YouTube, I would say it's not restricted to one particular part just like we are from Chandigarh and he's from Karnataka. We are all connected on the virtual platform. Same way, but normally it so happens that whenever the video comes, it's more viral in the area where it belongs to and taking in view that the beyond law CLC has grown beyond one particular place and we have students and lawyers coming from all areas. We requested Mr. Vashant Chandra Essen who is also writing a book on the Commercial Courts Act to give his insights as to what are they way forward, as to how the supplement would be arrived at, what is the way it is written, how it has the stamp of the court and what is the new era in that rather I would not say new because now it's around six years since the act came into being without taking much time I would request Mr. Vashant Chandra to give his insights and welcome to all those participants who are watching us live on the Facebook, YouTube and on this platform. Over to you Mr. Chandra. Namaste, thank you Mr. Vikas Chhatras. At the outset I thank the organizers for having given this opportunity to me. An organization which has already conducted 300 plus webinars it should really be congratulated because it is not easy even though it is online, it is not easy to pick subjects and pick speakers and do it every day. So I deem it my privilege to be part of this organization as a speaker where today the subject which is given to me is pre-institution mediation in commercial laws. I would like to say one thing before I proceed with the subject. I think for the advocates who are practicing on criminal side or service side or exclusively appellate side or the high court side this is the time they have to look at this new law though it's six years on paper to focus and concentrate on commercial laws here after. This is a huge area where it requires a lot of expertise, a lot of new things which concepts which are coming. These have to be examined by the advocates and probably the cream of the litigation is now shifting slowly to commercial. When I say commercial law I would also like to say that this is a boon which has come to the commercial stakeholders. The commercial stakeholders who all these days all these years were only wanting to see that the judiciary is made simple free access to justice made simple probably they have got it as a dream now. This is a dream I would say dream concept which has been now prevalent and it has picked up its space thanks to the online concept online court system or online mediation which is going to be my subject. So to start with I will straight away start with an illustration instead of giving some other example and see how this illustration and how it works in a pre-institution mediation in a commercial case and what would be otherwise if they have to go to the civil court. For the purpose of today's understanding I'll start with an illustration. A reputed tire company this is only for our purpose of understanding a reputed tire company situated in Andhra Pradesh always looks for rubber being purchased for their tires. So it has a regular agency from Madhya Pradesh who supplies the rubber to them and the tires are being manufactured by this A so the tire company is A the supplier of rubber is B for the purpose of our understanding. So A places orders regularly purchase orders in huge quantity because they have a quantity which is probably required for the whole of a market of southern India and B supplies them as per the purchase orders and payments are made from time to time. The quality of the tire or the product is depending on the kilometers it runs that's how usually it is. One particular batch of huge quantity of tires which were supplied by B to A A found it to be of defective supply defective material low quality it resulted in the tires being manufactured and it going to the customers customers complaining etc resulting to A paying only part of the amount to B which was prior to the supply and the remaining amount which ought to have been paid was not paid to B. Naturally B started asking for the money they said no I will not give you because this particular consignment which you sent it has been of so many quantities it has defective tires your rubber was of quality which is lesser required for the material therefore I won't be paying you the balance amount and the balance amount is about six crores we'll just take it as six crores huge quantity as usual when the both parties are not able to have eye to eye contact or phone to phone conversation and they find that the going is tough they contact an advocate A contacts an advocate A files a or issues a legal notice demanding for damages from B and some substantial amount as recovery because for this we had to lose so much of money from our side B in turn justifies the quality of the material supplied and also says A is liable to pay me six crores less interest etc so they also ask for that so for all purpose the dispute has been raised now in the normal circumstances prior to 2015 if such a dispute has been raised if a dispute has emerged I would say between A and B the normal platform is a court that is the civil court or if it is places like Kolkata, Delhi, Bombay and Chennai where presidency courts are there it is probably the original jurisdiction in the high court otherwise it will be to the civil court in other states but 2015 we have an amendment which Mr. Vikas Chaturth just now referred to it is called as commercial courts act where all such disputes have to be now before a commercial court this also being a dispute between two parties who are into commercial transaction this dispute also has to be lodged in commercial court of the jurisdiction 2018 there was another amendment which was made into the said commercial court act which is called as pre-institution mediation it is included in the commercial courts act which means if the dispute is subsequent to 2018 that is to say whether if it is in 2018, 19, 20 and 21 the party wanting to approach the court cannot directly go to the court namely the commercial court unless he has reasons to ask for emergent reliefs against the party B namely the defendant if not then he is bound to go through the commercial court process namely pre-institution mediation in short pre-institution means it's an institution we call it as a court pre-institution means before going to the court the filing of the approach of the party is to only towards the mediation the both parties have to go to mediation file I mean a party A has to go to mediation or party B also can go because both of are having counterclaim against each other and that counterclaim and the claim has to be first resolved before a mediation which is being done by the district legal services authority of the jurisdiction the limitation the pecuniary limit for such a dispute is anything above three lakhs this is also an amendment which has come into effect from 2018 which means any dispute having more than three lakhs and where the urgent eminent orders are not necessary from the court in the form of order 38 39 or 40 of CPC then the parties are compulsorily driven to a mechanism called as pre-institution mediation what is this pre-institution mediation we'll take this as three tire for our understanding first tire is pre-institution mediation second tire is the court namely the commercial court third is the execution or enforcement of the order in normal circumstances prior to 2015 in respect of commercial dispute you had to go directly to the second tire namely going to the court now it is tire one that is to say pre-institution mediation where the party has to file a form one application it's a very simple form a form which will be filed by him giving his details four numbers the person who is representing the authority of the person who is representing is a general manager gpa holder managing director whoever it is and also the similar details of the party b and some basic information as to what is the nature of dispute what is the quantum of the dispute etc etc and requesting the pre-institution mediation forum to initiate the process of mediation who is this pre-institution mediation forum it is a respective district legal service authority of that area that is to say the jurisdiction district legal service authority or legal service authority if it is a taluk level what is that it is required to be done by the the party i will just try to share the screen so that you'll understand them in the through the form of a ppt the process in p am i have put it here an application form has to be filed it is called as form number one a fee of thousand rupees has to be sent to the district legal service authority it has to be by way of a dd to the district legal service authority once that is done with the form one fund being filed by the party a the office of the district legal service authority will process the application and the notices will be sent to the other party so what is the process which is followed in that office is this once the notice is sent it goes to the opposite party asking him whether he is willing to join the process of mediation if so the process will be different if the notice is sent to the opposite party for some reason if it is not served or it is served but the opposite party refuses to participate it is served but it did not the opposite party does not consent to he participates but he says he has no consent for mediation than that pre-institution mediation which is called in short as p am is treated as closed and it will be called as a non-starter and similarly a certificate will be issued by the office of the legal service authority to say that it's a non-starter and the commercial part court cases can be filed thereafter in other words party a has to compulsory go through this process if party b does not cooperate or does not get served or refuses to participate in mediation or does not consent then the office will issue a non-starter certificate or a report which he has to attach along with his suit which is he is to go into file for asking for relief whatever he is asking for before the commercial court now if the party b acknowledges the notice issued by the DLSA and agrees to participate the mediation starts the mediation will be before a party who will be before a third party neutral mediator who will be none other than the mediator appointed by the district legal service authority the parties appear there the mediator takes over the dispute resolution both parties submit their claims case and etc and both parties also have to deposit a certain fee as the mediation fee depending on the claim amount involved the minimum being 15,000 for a dispute of 3 lakh and above the maximum being 75,000 which has to be shared by both the parties that is to say if it is 75,000 in the case where here it is 7 crore and etc it is 37 and a half thousand by each party once that is done the mediator takes over the mediation process goes ahead and the parties will be participating in the mediation and they try to evolve a solution through the mediation if the mediation is not effective or the parties do not get the desired result in the mediation the mediation gets closed and the parties are free to go to the court that is the commercial court of their jurisdiction if the parties participate in mediation they get a desired result then the matter ends with the mediator and the two parties executing a settlement deed in the mediation where the settlement will be recorded as to the recording the nature of settlement which is arrived between the parties and once such a settlement is signed by both the parties and if there are advocates who are supporting the parties their signature is also taken and the mediator mediator also signs along with the parties and it becomes their executable settlement under the commercial court act and that is given to the district legal service authority who will record it and keep it in their file in the event of the matter being further proceeded and if one of the party who is supposed to do certain things certain obligations under the agreement they are not performed they can go to the court of the jurisdiction and straight away file for execution of the decree in other words the settlement which is signed by the parties in the presence of the mediator and recorded by the office of the DLSA which has the sanctity of a decree being granted by the court so please note at the beginning I had said there are three tires tire one is the mediation pre-institution mediation tire two is the commercial court the process in the commercial court tire three is the execution if the parties have arrived approached pre-institution mediation and if there is a settlement they straight away have the liberty and go jump tire two and straight away go to tire three if there is no settlement they have to go to tire two and of course after tire two it's a matter of litigation in the court it is subject to appeal in the commercial court there is only limited appeals it can be only one appeal which is to the higher court namely it is a district level in some cases if it is under the presidency system it is to the division bench of the high court that is called as a appellate division of the commercial court so to in short what I'm saying is the concept which has come now by way of pre-institution mediation is a new concept wherein parties particularly the commercial parties have the advantage of trying to resolve their dispute amicably out of court in a neutral platform before a neutral person namely the mediator the neutral person in the neutral platform he will facilitate the parties and tries to help the parties to focus towards the solution and that solution being arrived the parties have the advantage of completing the entire process in the mediation itself resulting to a settlement being recorded and that settlement has the advantage of being called as a decree that is to say a court which otherwise would have passed a judgment and which would have become final it has the same binding effect on it and much more and the parties can straight away execute the decree and enforce the decree against the airing party this is the new law which has come I'm trying to make it very simple because I know there will be some questions which can be asked I would like to answer in the form of that answer to those questions at that time now what are the advantages what are the advantages of this firstly please note the pre-institution mediation is not a court it's only a facilitative body number two the parties are not going to file a plaint or a written statement in the pre-institution mediation whatever transpires in the mediation is totally confidential the person namely the mediator is a neutral and a third party the venue is a third party venue it's a neutral venue it is not the place of A it is not the place of B the parties are free to walk out of mediation and say I don't want the mediation yes I have paid for mediation I have consented for mediation I have participated but I today I think at the end of the day that this is not for me they can very well say please mediator permit me to walk out which means the mediation stops and the parties are free to go to the court the parties have all the advantages of a commercial negotiation there where the facilitator mediator helps the parties to negotiate try to as I have a solution we'll just take this very example for to see what could be the possible settlement in this as I said it's a tire manufacturer party A and the supplier is a rubber supplier who is party B the dispute which is now between the parties regarding the quality of this rubber supplied the quantum the counterclaim where he says I'm I've suffered because of this I have lost my business so there is a counterclaim and there could be any other many other claims saying that you know my image has been spoiled by tire I mean by the big company B so there is a possibility of the both the parties going to the court either independently or together either way of playing in two separate places or being filed in one court with other party filing a counterclaim now by coming to mediation please see the variety in a court it is either dismissed or decreed that is to say the party who approaches the court either will get a decree or his case will be dismissed that's to say if he has filed for recovery he'll get the entire amount or it will be dismissed and he will not get any amount and it is subject to appeal and it has to go to the next level if he approaches mediation and in the mediation if they participate and the mediator facilitates a good negotiation between the parties there are a variety of solutions possible here please note both are commercial parties both want each other except for this transaction where there is a defective material supplied as alleged by a all these years they had had a wonderful relationship maybe maybe communication gap or ego of two individuals between the two companies has resulted in a situation where they are into now dispute now it could be also we'll take it this way that a has got a requirement of rubber which is supplied by b if he stops supply b stops supply in view of this dispute a probably has to look up for such supply being made by another competent competent competitive person from a place which could be outside India because this is the only place where he gets rubber and therefore he's able to get good name for his tires similarly for b a could be a big customer who gives a very big order and if a stops and a doesn't cooperate and because of the litigation they're constrained to cut their relationship and probably b has to look elsewhere for finding new customers so both are looking for commercial interest in this keeping this in mind what could be the possibility in this one party a can say okay i have asked for seven crores you give me x crores i will withdraw the claim or i will settle for that claim maybe one crore two crore whatever it is this is one settlement there is a counter claim by b against a for remaining amount that also can be similarly adjusted between the two parties it could be also via media where b says okay i will supply you some other product or a rubber which is different so that that complaint which is made so far will not repeat again this could be as against a claim where it could be an understanding where they have an adjustment this is possibility of there this is third possibility there are many other possibilities they may also look upon this as a event bad event and they may say okay instead of this claim and counter claim you supply me this particular material at this rate maybe a concession rate and for the next one year the order is placed by me you should supply without any interruption and that is adjusted towards this liability or the disputed liability i mean there are various things which are possible secondly there are other advantages i'm saying why means the heading of today's discussion is commercial law the pre-institution mediation in commercial law this has as i said it's a boon which has come in the favor for commercial parties where the pre-institution mediation is made online they need not have to go to the place physically for mediation obviously because DLASA is a district legal service authority which probably the parties can approach either in Andhra Pradesh or Madhya Pradesh because both courts have jurisdiction both offices have jurisdiction under CPC now if A goes to Andhra Pradesh because it is his jurisdiction B is compelled to come to A that is to say Andhra Pradesh but thanks to the innovation thanks to the pandemic and the innovation now the entire mediation process is made online that is to say sitting at their own offices at the comfort of their own house or at a switch button arm distance they can expect justice like we are having webinar from all over India and joining in just in few seconds and sharing our thoughts this also can be done by mediation can be done online where the mediator will be probably in Andhra Pradesh the party may be in some remote place in Andhra Pradesh party B is in Madhya Pradesh they need not have to move out they can sit in their drawing room or the board room and have mediation going on this is number two these are the some advantages there are many more such advantages which can be seen because in a litigation a relationship is permanently strained whereas in a mediation the relationship is further strengthened as I said the parties will be looking not on their egos probably this is also the reason why the parliament of India has enacted this only for commercial purposes we have seen some disputes matrimonial disputes disputes between family members named lately partition suits some trust matters which are also go for mediation but there the mediation cannot have a headway after a certain time or a certain process because the parties are sticking to their own egos so therefore in a family matter or a matter which related to two individuals there could be some additional factors which come in the way of the parties settling the matter amicably and freely or it could be influence of third parties who will be controlling the mediation in remote control and they will be controlling the parties to say don't agree only agree for this that may be the reason but here the ego takes a back seat the commercial interest takes the front seat and obviously the parties will see the commercial interest try to suppress their ego or the differences and try to see how they can benefit from this because if they do not arrive at a solution they are the only losers because they have to probably stop the supply or stop the manufacturing of tires so this is a beautiful concept which has come which has come very recently and thanks to the law which has been amended therefore the law enables the parties to do ease of doing business this is the motto of the act the objective of commercial court act and particularly the pre-institution mediation concept is parties namely the commercial parties the commercial stakeholders are able to have ease of doing their business they need not have to be spending time in their offices of the lawyers or in the court from one place running all the way to the other place namely from one jurisdiction to another jurisdiction in this case where I say Madhya Pradesh and Andhra Pradesh they have to keep moving from this place to that place and there could be number of litigations filed by the two parties all that is avoided because the pre-institution is a platform which is provided to all of them equally and the mediator facilitates between the two parties so this is a game changer which has probably changed the mindset of the advocates I would say the mediators I would say as also the litigant friendly litigant people it's a litigant friendly process where the parliament are the act is saying you wanted it we are given it now try to see that you get your own results don't depend on the court for everything don't rush to the court for everything I've given you tire one tire two tire three you choose if you want tire one you go to tire one though it is mandatory you can still opt out of it you go to tire one try to achieve tire three or don't even achieve tire three tire one be satisfied withdraw the case settle happily but if you want to go to the court it's up to you because you first attempt mediation it may possible that in the in the mediation there is a settlement there is also possible where parties agree to agree fully or agree to disagree fully even in a disagreement there is a mediation in a mediation even in a disagreement there is an agreement the both parties will be agreeing to disagree so they know what exactly is the area of difference between the two of them they can always go to the commercial court focus on what is required to be pleaded and what is required to be fought instead of groping in the dark filing a lengthy voluminous petition running 200 pages this is very common in commercial courts in arbitration where we see volume of documents being produced that can the other beauty is parties can agree to agree or agree to disagree as I said and partly agree and partly disagree I'll just give an example maybe party a says give me three crores for the remaining four crores for some other reason I will fight in the court if b party agrees three crores is settled the second part is not settled therefore they go to the court or it could be I agree to take your tires from a new rubber product which you give me but this invoice I will give you only 10 percent that's also agreeing to agree and agreeing to disagree so they can agree on that if they disagree they can defer it and go to the court only on the disagreed portion of their agreement this is also possible so these are the advantages there's one another advantage is in the event the parties are in the mediation the duration of the mediation is three months that is starting from day one when the form one is filed by one of the party before one of the officers of the DLSA the matter has to end within three months that is to say the mediation has to conclude within three months by consent of both the parties the parties can extend the mediation by another two months so minimum three months maximum five months it is not that once it goes to mediation forever or eternally it will be in mediation there is a time limit we'll assume it is a situation where the parties are going at the last minute that is to say the limitation is there and during the time of limitation they go to the court in the process the original limitation period of three years expires but the parties are in mediation the duration of the time when the matter was in mediation is excluded for the purpose of limitation and the parties can still go to the court afterwards i'll just give an example two years ten months the parties have kept quiet at the end of two years ten months form one is filed by the party the matter is in the mediation pre-institution mediation for the next five months two years ten months plus two months is three years and the limitation has expired but the parties are already in the process of mediation if the mediation doesn't materialize or the parties do not get their the required results now parties have to come back to the court what happens to the limitation the limitation for the period of five months which they were undergoing in the limitation is added to them which means that gets excluded that is to say the three months bonus they get and that three months they can use it for the purpose of filing the case coming to the commercial court i would say this is a twin concept that is to say pre-institution on one side mediation on the other side both are new concepts where i would only one in one sentence i would say this is a golden opportunity which has come the way to the commercial parties and the advocates as i said it is time for the advocates to shift their practice or add along their own practice to see that they get a newer dimension where they get variety of practices area of practice and commercial court is the area i can go on and i see already vikas chitra giving an indication so i would probably spend the next few minutes which is given to me in the form of question and answer if you have any so that we can spend on that for some time and i may be able to cover all your doubts over to you mr vikas any questions please yeah mr chandra you can do away with the ppt yeah yes we have few questions ashima says does the mandatory pre pre-institution mediation apply to partition of property matters also what all matters are covered under that if you can discuss it please the act namely commercial court act has defined certain things which are called as commercial disputes they are defined under section two one c of the act i'll only read few of them there are about 22 of them bank disputes ordinary transactions of merchants bankers financiers they are all commercial disputes export and import mercantile services it's a dispute which is commercial dispute issues relating to admiralty and maritime law that is commercial dispute transactions relating to aircraft aircraft engines aircraft equipment helicopters etc carriage of goods construction and infrastructure contracts including tenders huge of this is reconstruction can be anything road construction house construction all this comes in here agreements relating to immobile property exclusively used in trade and commerce trade and commerce is one thing which has come here franchising agreements distribution agreements licensing agreements joint venture agreements shareholder agreements etc etc there are quite a few IPR disputes they are also there to the specific question which is asked a partition suit per se between the two individuals is not a commercial dispute as defined under the act therefore it cannot be a commercial dispute yes sir any other questions yeah i'm just checking there's one question asked by ashima whether she's asking how can i become a mediator i think there's also one more question there she would have posted at the first instance yes the process is not defined into the act as to how it has to be made but the state high court will notify probably the state high court will have to be contacted what they're doing is there are mediations under section 89 cpc they are being drawn into this mediation section 89 is a different concept in so far as appointment of the mediator is concerned but those mediators are being drawn here so probably the high court has to make a separate rule as to how to appoint the mediators it depends on the state high court does this mandatory pre-institution mediation apply to non-commercial cases to primary partition suits it's only commercial cases not for any other cases matrimonial suits partition suits they are not commercial therefore it is not applicable in some cases they are doing like in our cases we do like what we discussed yesterday pre litigation mediation where they say that you pay 10 000 rupees plus 500 500 rupees per that could be i i i had a discussion with chatharath yesterday that could be under a state law but that is in respect the slight difference is that is a pre litigation mediation this is pre institution here the probably the word institution is the court their litigation means it could be even if the court is not there they may approach the court may not approach the court but that is different that probably is applicable to the matrimonial disputes also in some states it is not so in all these states as i remember it is not so in my state that is karnataka that that is not available this is by bharat pande whether section 12a of pim is applicable to transferred arbitration related court proceedings say section 34 proceedings section 34 is if the dispute under the arbitration agreement is a commercial dispute as defined under section 2 once the award is passed by the tribunal then the challenge to section 34 becomes a dispute under commercial courts i hope i made myself clear the first level is before the arbitrator award of the arbitrator if it is in respect of a commercial dispute then the application under section 34 is before a commercial court not the regular court under section 34 it will be now onwards under section 34 before the commercial court section 10 of the commercial court act defines as to these disputes which come under section 34 this is where mutur raja can set proceedings apply under section 138 of the negocivil instrument acts under for mediation if that 138 is the check issuance is in respect of a commercial dispute as defined in section 21c yes definitely commercial court pre-institution applies there's one more news which i would like to share Mr chetrat there is a move to make the entire 138 proceedings decriminalized wherein moment there is a check which is bounced now before it goes to the court either before the magistrate court or the civil court the supreme court has passed a judgment in one of the courts to try and see the same pre-constitution pre-institution mediation concept there of course this is not a law it's only a suggestion of the supreme court but as of today a check issued in towards a commercial transaction namely a dispute under section 21c of the commercial court act yes pre-institution mediation applies in fact i just received a message also in the morning that consolation has found place in the budget all contractual obligations to go through consolation mechanism hence it may be consolation mediation and arbitration setup yes i would always say no in today's budget that's what i've received the message i've not read it yeah i've also not read it i just saw it just now yeah in other words the budget is also giving prominence to adr yeah and mediation and consolation i would always say they are direct sisters arbitration may be cousin brother but mediation and consolation go together so they are directly related to each other we do have consolation where we adopt mediation you're also mediator you know how we can do that there are so many other mechanisms where we use it in rara also we use consolation where it is actually mediation and some ombudsman are constituted they also do mediation and consolation even under the legal services section 22 it contemplates that you have to correct have a one consideration proceeding in fact in the idea actually even in the long that concept actually is borrowed from the industrial districts 1948 correct yeah last age when he says can mediation settlement be enforced by law yes definitely enforced by law i only recall repeated tire one tire two tire three i said you can by enforcement is tire one i'm sorry settlement is tire one enforcement is tire three without going to tire two you can straight away jump to tire three yes you can enforce yeah this is bharat pande says section 89 of the cpc puts a filter not only those matters will be referred to adr whose terms of settlement exists but section 12 a of the commercial score tag 2015 does not put such filter why will it not amount to time wastage for six months in referring the mandatory mediation those matters where in no term settlement exists at all and matters involve allegations of fraud and deception i have not understood can you revise the question mr vikas because he says that uh referring a matter sometimes uh it does not according to him and whether words he's wanting to say it's sometimes a toothless tiger because you cannot force the parties because you also know that mediation is a settlement where both the parties get a feeling of win-win situation as a commonly used to say that there's a dispute between two people of the oranges of marmalade's one will say i will have the juice otherwise i will have the pills and he can make the pickle and other can have the juice of the order himself no in answer to that i may be i'm little more positive when a party in a pre-institution pays the money for the mediation and participates definitely looks for settlement otherwise you would not participate at all section 89 what happens is it is a free process plaintiff probably who has paid court fee will be looking for some settlement defendant comes like a you know just free bird he's free to either accept not to accept and walk away from mediation and in normal cases in one or two meetings you can gather it exactly exactly as a mediator you can study the pulse of the party the parties also have some pulse that he's buying time or he is really trying to have a settlement here what happens is he comes with payment where he makes the payment he will be definitely looking for solution therefore this is a concept which is different from that concept and this is definitely not a wasteful exercise and my experience as a mediator is it is excellent there are quite a few cases where we have seen settlements happening in few settings four or five sitting this is by multidimensional uh an education loan availed and a default will it come under this act or not sir this is a good question for this reason it's always open for debate we don't know when the supreme court it such matters will go because the word used in the section 21 c is ordinary transactions of merchants bankers financiers and traders such as those relating to mercantile documents including enforcement if you go by that whether it is education loan or agriculture only is immaterial it's a bank transaction if it is a bank transaction if there is a default then they have to go under the they can go under only a commercial court act so according to me education loan has is a misnomer when it comes to section 21 it's a commercial transaction because it's a bank's transaction of course bank may or may not use this because they have that surface e drt etc if it is less than 20 lakhs more than 3 lakhs the banks can come to commercial court so i hope i answered the question yeah and i was just checking it out even on the facebook we don't have any questions okay one is aashima do we aashima last question we will be taking do we need a specific knowledge on the topic of mediation example maritime law etc or anyone who is skilled mediator can take up the mediation without any knowledge i don't think that it is required to know the law as long as you know the procedures of mediation fundamentals of mediation nothing like that the clients will teach you the law clients will teach you the facts you be open to it be a good mediator that's enough and you will also uh you also have to see that it is not against the public policy of course and there's no fraud ultimately yeah you are right you as a lawyer your background of a lawyer practice is very much important for being a mediator just becoming a mediator without the background of law or even i would say sometimes even we after so many years of practice we may make mistakes but we should know the fundamentals of law very well as i said public policy opposed to public policy such agreements we should not be a party to it if pre-mediation of uh pre-institution mediation fails then too the parties will have to pay the fees yes yes unfortunately yes and fortunately yes because there is no rebate here there is no concession here there is no transfer of uh fund from here to there that's the investment which you are making for your settlement if not just like it's just like a code fees what you apply in a yes even if it is dismissed for a suit for recovery you're not asked that that's fees at least you have to refer correct so uh thank you mr chandra and to all those participants we can tell that we had the last minute to ask mr chandra late in the night but he was kind enough to see to our request and it was a wonderful session and to understand the nuance of pre-institution is the concept which i think a lot of people would actually cherish it and tomorrow friends uh in our pursuit to the webinars would be understanding the nuances of law of trademarks by Dr. Nidhi Bhuj who is an assistant professor in Gujarat national law university gnnu so do stay connected with us tomorrow at 4 30 p.m stay safe stay blessed and for all those participants who have been watching us live on this platform youtube and facebook thank you to mr shan chandra it was a fascinating session thank you everyone thank you