 Bible says all who trust in Him will not be disappointed. And that can give you hope today. Welcome to the program called Hope Today. I'm Tom, I'm here with Angela and Anna. We've got a great program for you. We're gonna be talking a lot about hope hoping a specific area. Anna, tell us about our guests. Yeah, we're gonna be talking about hope for pastors of small town church communities. So if you are a pastor of a small church, if you attend a small church, if you attend church, today's conversation is for you because pastors face very unique challenges and our guest today, his name is Ronnie Martin, pastor Ronnie, and he is a pastor of a small church and he has written a book that is called Pastoring Small Towns, Help and Hope for those ministering in smaller places. And so I just love the opportunity to be able to support our pastors because they're dealing with sheep, right? And sheep can be ordinary and hard to get along with but they have such care and compassion for them. And so it's an important conversation. Yeah, it sure is. You know, I spent a lot of time in New England, lived there for five years and every town in New England has a little white church right in the center of town. You can tell it was the first building other than the houses, the first gathering type building that was built. And it's right in the center of town and now a lot of them are empty or not being used or not preaching the gospel or just some. Angel, there's a challenge with the church to stay vibrant, especially in a small town area where people may have moved away and cultures changed. Yeah, I think there are different and unique opportunities within small towns and I love that today we're gonna talk to this pastor who is really in the thick and throats of it. I think we look at social media. We look at the culture that is in American culture and it's a lot of these mega churches or we think that ministry is not successful unless it's massive. And I think that he's gonna shed some light on how success within a small community actually looks and how we're all a part of that. Yeah, absolutely. I have to say I grew up in a small church, a Lyons church in Homer City, Pennsylvania. And I know you there. Oh, the city, that sounds like a country church right there, doesn't it? Yes, it's a country church. And I know some of the Homer City crowd is watching today and I just have to like shout out to that church community that is still active, the pastors there. It was a wonderful place for me to grow up. Yeah, praise God for small churches. Well, that's gonna be a great conversation and I think it would minister to a lot of us that just need to hear about the good things God is doing. Well, right now we're gonna hear something else that we call Stump the Host. Okay, so we have not seen these questions. We have three questions. We've heard the first two are easy and the last one is hard. You'll have to decide for yourself but play along with us here and see how well you know your Bible. So here's our first question. In what city did Mary, Martha, and Lazarus live? You know, it's always been crazy when the producers like, this is an easy question that I see and I'm like, uh. Wait a second. I think it was Bethany. Does that sound right to you? Oh, sounds right to me. That does sound right. All right, let's go with Bethany. Our second question. Who asked Jesus if they could be permitted to call down fire from heaven upon the Samaritans? I think it was me. I felt like that plenty of times. I know. Yeah, I'm going with the Sons of Thunder, James and John. I think we gotta go with James and John. Okay. I love what Jesus says. You don't really know what spirit you're on. Didn't really come to do that. Didn't really come to call down fire. Came for another reason. I feel like we've all had those moments where we wanted to call fire down. Absolutely. I mean, it's really good that that's not one of the gifts of the spirit. Oh, there's Tom. He's the call down fire guy. You know, several places burned up. No, I'm glad God doesn't give us that one. All right, here's the last one. What did Samuel call the name of the stone that he set between Mizpah and Shen? Wow. Just a second. We need to call the pastor Ronnie. This is the hard one here. Any ideas over there? I know, I did. Name of the stone. No, I'm drawing a blank on this one. Pastor Ronnie, are you there? You know this one? Any help? Any help for us here, brother? Oh man. The pressure. You really put me on the spot on that one. I don't know. I know, I'm sorry. Yeah, we don't know. No, okay, that's pretty obscure anyway. Thanks, but we'll be talking to you about something else in a second. No, I'm sorry, we don't have an answer. I don't know. Ebenezer. Okay. Did you say that? I don't know. Yeah. There's an old hymn that says, I'll call thee now my Ebenezer. I don't even know. Ebenezer Scrooge. I'm running. That's what's coming to my brain right now. Sorry. All right, well, moving right along. Our conversation today will be full of health and hope for pastors of small town churches. Barnary Search says that as of March, 2022, 42% of pastors have considered quitting full-time ministry in the aftermath of the pandemic. Our guest today, Pastor Ronnie Martin, is the lead pastor of a small town church and co-author of Pastoring Small Towns. His passion is to equip and empower pastors and ministry leaders to effectively take on the challenges of pastoring a small town community. So Ronnie, welcome to Hope Today. Thanks so much for having me. I obviously need to brush up on my Old Testament theology. Oh my goodness. Well, we're thankful that you're with us to encourage pastors and leaders so we know you're a pastor of a small town church. Tell us a little bit about where you pastor and about your congregation. Yeah, so I pastor in a town called Ashland, Ohio, which is a midway point between Cleveland and Columbus, town of about 20, 25,000 people. So not a tiny, tiny town, but definitely a small community, a community that has been around for the last couple of centuries and is very what I call generationally sort of stacked. So a lot of families and I'm a very tight knit community. So coming in from the outside, like I did, I'm a Southern California transplant, definitely some unique challenges coming into a smaller town community. And but also just seeing the doors that God was opening for us to enter into this place from the outside and then seeing the unique opportunities that they've been provided for us to do gospel ministry. And again, in a place that a lot of people don't, you know, would kind of shy away from because of, you know, it's not something that has a lot of influence. And so, yeah, we felt called about 13 years ago to relocate and experience all the culture shock, but then also experience just some of the amazing things that comes with being in a small town. One of those things being just that sense of really tight knit community. And so how many years have you, did you say you've been there? So it's 13 years this year, yeah. Wonderful. Okay, so then in your book, you really do go right into some of the challenges. And there's a quote that is written in there. You said, it can help just to acknowledge that we are living and leading in a particularly dark time, many have quit. For those of us who remain mental and emotional exhaustion seem to have become part of the job. Was there a time where you felt that way and can you just kind of unpack that reality for so many pastors? Yeah, I think, you know, one of the unique aspects of pastoring is just this sense of aloneness and there can be this sense of isolation. And I think again, that can be whether you're in a big, an urban area, a small town. I think that's just unique to the role. And I think the pandemic just exacerbated that, right? Because we had to pull back in some unique ways that we were not, we really had not been trained to understand or to know how to experience. And so I think the last three years have just sort of have shown us that, you know, the Lord brings challenges, unique challenges to pastors in any given particular season. And to be able to navigate those with a sense of grace, but also with the understanding that the Lord tests us, he refines us, he allows us to go through things for our sanctification, for our spiritual maturity. I mean, we really experienced that in the last few years. And I think the sense of isolation in it all was just palpable. And so a lot of my friends who were pastors, that was one of the main topics of conversation was how do we get through this in a way where we're not just like, you know, kind of typing out another resignation letter, you know, on Tuesday, but we can actually endure through this and see it as something that the Lord is walking us through and he's producing some level of increased endurance in us, just incredibly difficult times that we're still kind of just processing, I think, even, you know, a year out of the pandemic. And you speak so much in your book about leading with love to look at how Jesus led with love and follow that example. Yeah, I think one of the great things about us, you know, a small town scenario is that it's a slower pace. And so this idea of the way we see, you know, a lot of churches operate, which is to do things very fast and very quickly and looking for results-oriented programming. You know, in a small town, you don't really have the availability to do that. And if you do attempt to do that, you can be met with a lot of suspicion, right? Because people are holding a little more dearly and deeply to tradition. And so, you know, one of the unique benefits of doing what we're doing is to say, hey, you know, the Lord would probably have us, you know, a pastor at a rate that is healthy for us and good for our flourishing. Again, regardless of what kind of a town you're pastoring in, a small town really kind of brings that home. And it allows you to say, all right, Lord, what do you have for me? What are my limitations? How can I lean into that so that I can lead out of that in a way that's healthy for me and for people in pastoring, you know? Ron, I love that word flourishing. And I want to ask you about that. In the Pittsburgh area where we are, Pittsburgh, the city is kind of recovered from the rust belt identity that it had, but a lot of the small towns up and down the river are still hurting. People have moved away, the businesses has closed down. How can a church that lives in a rural area that exists in a rural area that has seen a decrease in its attendance, that sort of thing? And in fact, in the whole town is smaller. How's, I think the economics of it would be one of the hardest things. How do you work through that? Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. It's incredibly difficult. I think some of the difficulties is that you're probably gonna have a smaller congregation. And the expectation is that you may have a congregation that peaks at 50 or 60 people and there's no expectation that that's just going to keep growing. That might be what you have for the duration of your time in that town, in that church. I think some of the upsides of it are that economically it's much cheaper to live in a town like that. So as a pastor, you're not faced with high mortgages and high costs of living. But I also think that you have to, like any sort of area that you commit to in terms of pastor, you gotta find, you gotta have a love for the community and a love for the people. And so you gotta commit to the place where God has placed you because there's just unique challenges no matter where you are. And the Lord, there's equity in how the Lord sees all the different areas. We tend to place a higher, we put a higher emphasis on say, like planting a church in a city or maybe in a suburban area, but the Lord sees people. And I think as long as we see people, we can endure through the challenges, whether they're economic or otherwise because we're relationally driven, we're gospel driven people. And I think pastors need to be encouraged in that. And I think people need to be encouraged to encourage their pastor, knowing that these are some of the challenges that they're facing for not only themselves, but for their family and everything that goes along with that. And so pastor Ronnie, for a pastor who's watching today that is just feeling really exhausted and they maybe had an excitement and a love for their congregation at one point, but they feel like it's slipping away. How would you encourage them to guard their heart and their mind, to be able to revive their love and passion for their calling and for their people? Yeah, I think that is a really important question. And I think for a lot of guys, they need to allow themselves to learn how to rest and to pull back a little bit and to make sure that they are incorporating a weekly Sabbath into their rhythm. And just not be people that are constantly working within the productivity of their hands, but they're focusing on the productivity of their hearts, as I like to say it, and just making sure they're having that really good intimate alone time with the Lord. They pay a lot of attention to their spiritual disciplines and just spending that time away from the ministry. And again, we're not machines. We're not even pastors first, we're persons, we're people. And I think for pastors to understand that, that God created them as a person, not a pastor, it'll take some of the weight off of their shoulders and allow things like rest to be incorporated in a way that's not filled with guilt or that, hey, I should just be working seven days a week when in fact, the Lord gives his beloved rest. And so that would be my encouragement is to step back a little, look at your schedule, look at your rhythms, and know that the Lord looks down on you with favor and with joy and with delight when you step away from the calling for regular intervals. Well, Ronnie, I love the slower down pace of that, of the sense of that. I really do because so much is go, go, go in our society, but let me ask you, you mentioned the pandemic, let me ask you about that coming out of that. I know it was a no-win situation for almost every pastor because you could do this and people would criticize you, you could do that and people would criticize it. So coming out of that now, and what can the local congregation do to really encourage you? What encourages you, and what have you seen as far as people returning to the church? Have you been able to see most of your congregation come back? I just wonder how we're navigating this new culture we're in. Yeah, that's really a good question. I think it's changed the culture in a lot of ways. We do have a lot of our members that came back. We also lost quite a few members for various reasons. And I think that is the story across the board for almost every church, so that's not unique. I think if the pandemic showed us anything, it showed us that we are very preference and comfort driven when it comes to how we view church. And I think for church members and pastors alike, it's to remember that at the end of the day, the Lord is calling us to be a community that is growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ. Are we getting about the things that are doing that? Are we going after the main and the plain things? Are we not letting politics create dividing lines for us? So are we staying very clear on the gospel? Are we able to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, soul and mind? Are we loving our neighbors or self? Just getting back to those biblical essentials and saying we cannot let those other things be what defines us. Because scripture has some things to say about that. And scripture has some things to say about the fact that those other things should not be defining us. And so I think we've come into a place where we have opportunities now to be gospel people and to be very clear on what that looks like moving forward so that moving into the future were people that is wholly devoted as a community to the message of the gospel. And I think we have an opportunity to do that. It's gonna take time. And we are still coming out of this processing and understanding what it all meant and what became of it all. But I think the Lord is good to preserve us and to teach us and to grow us through it. And so Pastor Ronnie, I know you speak at a lot of conferences where the pastors are coming for training and for support. What do you hear on the hearts? What is like the primary need of pastors that you are around today? Yeah, I think it's just encouragement. One of the cliches for pastors is that nobody ever says anything to me. I know, I like to phrase it like this. A lot of times pastors know that their people care about them but they're not so sure that their people care for them. And so I think as a church member just even some words of encouragement to your pastor on occasion, remembering that they're just people, they're just like you, they have all the same struggles. And just being intentional in how you can encourage in a variety of different ways, it means the world for pastors who are just in that daily slog of ministry. So yeah, encourage your pastor for sure. In the last 30 seconds that we have with you, could you just pray for the pastors out there? Yeah, absolutely, be happy to. Lord, just thank you for this opportunity to speak to pastors in any context. We thank you that you've raised people up to serve your people. We pray for encouragement right now. Nobody understands better than you the challenges that are being faced. And there is nobody like you that can help pastors meet those challenges. So Lord, we pray for endurance and resilience right now in this time. We thank you that you don't do anything carelessly or arbitrarily, Lord, but you are testing us, you are refining us and you're doing it to redeem and restore us. So we thank you that you're doing a good work. It's a hard work, but I pray that your blessing will go out on all those that have committed to serving your people that you would encourage them today, that you are in control and that you are over all things and that we are just under shepherds to the church, that you are the lead pastor and shepherd over. So Lord, thank you for that truth. I pray that it helps us today and we ask that in Christ's name, amen. Amen. Well, Pastor Ronnie, thank you so much. Again, your book is Passing Small Towns, Help and Hope for Those Ministering in Smaller Places. Thank you for your heart and for everything that you shared today. Thanks so much, thanks for having me, I loved it. All right, well, we need to take a quick break, but don't go anywhere because when we come back, we have encouragement and hope from God's word. We'll be right back. Remember your childhood joy and excitement when being invited to a party? You felt valued, included, wanted and ready to have a good time. Best-selling author, Bob Goff, believes that every day of life can be lived with the same childlike enthusiasm and sense of humor. Inside Love Does, you'll learn that love is a verb, not just a feeling. His insights and joyful reflections will help you discover what it means to live fully alive, even as you serve others. Prepare to encounter remarkable stories from Bob Goff's life as he shares how living and loving to the fullest is the best way to make Jesus known in this world. Request your copy of Love Does when you give your best gift this month. Your gift today will help Cornerstone Television show the life-changing love of Jesus through Christ-centered TV programs. Call us at 888-665-4483 or give at ctvn.org slash donate. Today's encouragement comes to you from Psalms 116, 5 through 9. How kind the Lord is, how good he is, so merciful this God of ours. The Lord protects those of childlike faith. I was facing death and he saved me. Let my soul be at rest again, for the Lord has been good to me. He has saved me from death, my eyes from tears, my feet from stumbling, and so I walk in the Lord's presence as I live here on earth. This scripture from Psalms 116 is so powerful and I think all of us who find our faith in Jesus can declare this. The Lord has been good to me. He has saved my feet from stumbling again and again. And maybe even today you're saying, Lord, give my soul rest again. We trust God, even as we heard in our interview, that as we continue to journey with the Lord, he will provide you rest and that you must take time to find rest yourself in encouragement. Hey, that sounds good. I like the idea that childlike faith is the thing that kicks this off because when you're a kid, when dad's around, you're not scared. You can be scared of something, maybe somebody down the street or maybe it's nighttime and you heard something, but when dad's there, you're not scared. At least I know not everybody had the greatest experience with their dads but I know that for protection, my dad was like, hey, I hear dad's voice. I'm good, I'm good. And that's the childlike faith. It's not, sometimes can get a little too high and mighty theological maybe about things. Hey, it's like I trust in Jesus. I trust in the Lord God and I'm just gonna take a step. I'm just gonna walk. I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know where I'm supposed to go the next step but the Lord showed me one step so I'm gonna take that when we trust in the Lord that way. We begin to see that he meets us with all the protection that we need. Yeah, he absolutely does. I was sitting with this scripture this morning while I was having my morning cup of coffee and it really ministered to me because let's just face it, sometimes adulting is hard and exhausting and we are, maybe we're not pastors of congregations but we have people in our lives that we are shepherding, we are caring for, we are speaking and then sometimes they drain the life out of us and it can be so hard and it's important. We see in the word and the Psalms how again and again we look away from the natural realm and we look to Jesus because we are a child of God. So although we have all these adult responsibilities and we're trying to go through life and honor the Lord and do the things that are right, we can get away with God and rest. We can let our soul rest, we can let our mind rest while God breathes his life back into us when he breathes wisdom for how to deal with the situations. Well, he breathes encouragement and he confuses us with strength and so I love this scripture because it is that reminder again and again to declare the goodness of God and who he is and how much he loves us as his children and that he will pick us up again. Absolutely, final thoughts there, Angela. I love that you brought out the childlike faith. Rest in your father, trust that he is good and that just like he saved David, he can save you out of anything. You know, we don't have to be anything beyond what we are, you know. I love that the pastor Ronnie was like, we're human beings first, you know, before we're pastors, before we're ministers, before we host a TV show, before we go to work. We're human beings, you know, that need connection, that need love and the ultimate connection we need is that connection to the father through Jesus Christ. Do you have that connection today? I hope you do. If you don't reach out to him, say, God, I need you in my life and open the door, he will rush in, he will meet you, forgive your sins and he will make you his child. So do that today and you'll begin to experience hope. On tomorrow's Hope Today, no matter where you dwell, you can always feel at home with God. Author Sandra Bird invites you to experience God's love and comfort through her 90-day devotional that will draw you closer to Jesus like never before. That's tomorrow on Hope Today. Cornerstone Television wishes to thank all our faithful viewers, whose consistent prayers and financial support have made this program possible.