 Just run through our front yard It's okay. For some reason I don't know if I'm crazy for a backyard. Okay, please come. No, I don't know. Nobody told me. No, no. And I'm stupid. It's this volume. I got it. It's a breeze. It's a breeze right there. I think mine's ready. Yeah, okay. So I would like to call to order the South Burlington City Council meeting of Monday, April 15th, 2019. Well, so the first order of business is the Pledge of Allegiance. Pledge of Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which stands one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Instructions on exiting the building in case of emergency. Would you like to wave those tonight through the crowd? Yeah. We go out that door. You and Tom are going to check. We meet out around back. You've been listening. Yeah, okay. Item three is the agenda review. Are there any additional solutions or corrections or changes in the order of business? Yes. For me. Okay. The item on here for the paving bid, item 14. We're not ready for that yet. Okay. So we should take that off. We can defer that until the next meeting. Okay. But it's not ready yet. Okay. That can be deleted from this agenda. Defer to May 1st, right? Not the 22nd. Not the 22nd. Yeah, okay. All right. May 6th, actually. May 6th. Oh, okay. Thank you. Sorry. All righty. Item four is a possible executive sessions to discuss pending litigation to which the city is a party and the negotiation and securing of real estate regarding the south Burlington community center. I move that the council make a specific finding that premature general public knowledge of confidential attorney client communications made for the purpose of providing professional legal services regarding pending litigation to which the city is a party would clearly place the council and the city at a substantial disadvantage. Second. All in favor? Having so found the city council. I now move that the council enter into executive session for the purpose of considering confidential attorney client communications made for the purpose of providing professional legal services pending litigation to which the city is a party and the negotiation or securing of real estate options in connection with the south Burlington community center. Inviting to attend Tom Hubbard and Amanda Lafferty. Second. All in favor? I. Okay. We'll be back. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it was in a funny setup this time, but or different. It had the alcohol. It had all the separate and stuff. Okay. I recall back into session the south Burlington city council meeting of Monday, April 15th, 2019. And at this point, are there any comments and questions from the public not related to the agenda? Donna, please come forward. Having read the other paper this past week, I got, you know, back from vacation. I just wanted to, I just wanted to make a comment about storm water control, storm water issues related to the City Hall school district issue. And I didn't, I don't know if this is something that had been considered yet, but I brought some literature for you to look at about green roofs. Penn State University did some pretty thorough testing and found that by using a thin green roof, and you can read about it, I'm not going to explain it, but it basically is creating a water absorbing structure on the roof. And it doesn't add, it doesn't really add to the structural elements of the building. It just allows the water to evaporate off the roof about 55%, it's like a 55% reduction in storm water runoff when you use a green roof. And they have been done around here, but not extensively I think because you don't get into this situation around here as often as many cities do, like Chicago uses them all the time now to reduce the amount of storm water runoff. And so instead of increasing your runoff by having a solid, you know, a normal roof, they add green structure to the roof. And it allows the water to stay there a little bit longer, it gets absorbed, it makes the roof cooler. And so you have less cooling load in the summertime. And it reduces the amount of storm water by about 55%, according to Penn State. So I'll just pass these around. Thank you. You know, I think it's certainly not something that we run into very often, but I did consider that in the new development area where you already have storm water issues there, that this may be a very cost-effective solution rather than trying to find more land area to accommodate the runoff that you can use your roof. Great. Next thing is to go to the state legislature and so it can be in the state law. Well, it's going to be sort of situation by situation. You know, in this case it seems like it is a situation where it can be a very cost-effective way of doing it. The situation that you read in the paper has to do with state law. The requirements. But I think that the amount goes down off calculation. But the resolution might, this might impact a resolution. The state would include this in reducing it from the state law. Thank you. Justin might have a couple comments. Thank you, Donna. Yes, thank you. Thanks, Tom. Hi, Justin. Having set in on hundreds of hours of design meetings for the City Hall Library, we looked at, as you can imagine, particularly in light of where we are with property rights, there's a lot of use. There's a lot of tear space on the second floor, leaving the third floor to house the majority of the mechanicals, because we didn't have the interior space to chew up usable building square footage for the mechanicals. So by the time all that stuff goes up on the roof, and we certainly evaluated green roofs, blue roofs, planters, there's really that much of it. And a lot of the volume is really driven by the school side of the equation. It's coming off of their property. So certainly while to some level a green roof can reduce your runoff, it doesn't, in the eyes of the state, reduce the amount that you're required to treat. So you get a yes, you have less runoff, but you don't get a treatment credit. So in Vermont you have to do two things one, hold it back, let it settle, then you have to treat it. So there's two different types of volumes that you're kind of competing against and designing against. So we certainly looked at it, but with everything else that was desired, the public spaces in terms of the roof terraces on the second floor and on the third floor as I mentioned, there's just frankly there's not much room on the actual roof for anything other than building components. How about the north balcony? The green roof? So we did leave some space and have some building loading for while not a formal green roof like you have at the airport which certainly I think we've all read on the issues they've had there, planters. And so green roof has a lot of different concepts. One is an actual built-in, it looks just like a yard. The other is putting up like planter boxes like you would at your own property to have some of the volume. So we've reserved kind of the latter part of that as a possibility. But so again as you can imagine, we tried to thread the stormwater needle in an infinite amount of ways. And if there was a silver bullet and if the silver bullet was the green roof or the blue roof, it would have been presented to you. Lots of blue roof. Is that the public swimming pool? Yeah, it's kind of like a green roof just without you're just holding the landscaping component of it. So you're just holding and attenuating your flow. It's a basic holding tank on top of the building. So we looked under every stone and apparently we still have some more to overturn. Plus the solar on the third roof, on the top of the third. I would be curious to know if the school building could be turned into a green roof. Not to get too ahead of the manager, but there is a movement at the state DEC to how to and if I get too far off topic, just cut me off, as to how to deal with stormwater issues on school properties statewide. Because again they tend to be large property owners, they tend to have a lot of impervious surface and the age of a lot of remote school systems are coming to the point where they're considering rebuilding, renovating. So a lot of those discussions in the states actually trying to target certain school districts and facilities in impaired watersheds where these improvements might be made and they're in the process of making some grants available and I believe South Toronto is a community that is frankly on their list through the school district and if we get to that point, that would be a great discussion to have. Because when we make our commitment to the Paris climate change agreement green roofs really also not only the temperature of the building but also the temperature of the city goes down. There's a lot of great benefits yeah, so it would be just want to add a little bit of behind the door background. Appreciate that. Any other comments from the public? Alrighty you know can we do mine skipping down to number 10 since we have a public hearing at 7.30 which will only take a moment. Oh okay. So we should skip down to number 9 anyway because we need to continue the public hearing on the Donald and Lois Kerwin subdivision. So you need to come into the public hearing on this matter by motion. I move to open the public hearing on the matter of item number 9. All in favor? Aye. Now you can go to so a motion to continue the hearing until May 6th at 7.30pm. So moved. Second. All in favor? Aye. Okay great. All in favor? Aye. All right thank you. So do you want to flip down to Tom's really anxious to have his dog pick? This is my year I mean Obie's year. If there's no concern we're all dog owners here. I know I know but I who are you going to choose to pick? Yeah. All right so let's go down to item 10. The top dog in first feline drawing. When people ask me what I like about being on city council I always say pulling the top dog in first year is the best part of being on council. Donna Kinville city clerk thank you for allowing me to come tonight about six years ago we were noticing declining dog enrollment throughout the state and really around the country and so I sat with a couple of clerks and tried to brainstorm ways to get registrations up and so we've done a lot of different things and we have now done top dog which just kind of came out of top dog in first feline so our top dog last year was Odie and our cat was Isis and so their reign will be ending tonight so we'll get some nice new pictures in there because of this program each reports you that we're up a little bit this year we're up 86 from last year so each year we're continuing to grow and we are we're not the norm we are the exception to that rules in fact we're growing everybody else is still declining we had 236 new dogs to the city from January to April 1 which was a lot I'd hate to I can't go on with this without recognizing our sponsors without the sponsorships of the prizes that we're giving this contest wouldn't exist pet food warehouse has been with us since the beginning guys Farmer and Yard brings us in a bag of goodies for both a cat and a dog price shoppers chipped in they give us a gift card so we can kind of go in and kind of fill in the prizes as we need to Green Mountain Animal Hospital's been there a number of years and we got a couple of new ones I reached out to Perina with their big company and they gave me gift cards to go out and buy big things of food for both the cat and the dog pet coat came out with a gift card target gave us a $50 gift card so it came by a really nice bed and a swinging thing for the cat Walmart supplied nice little bowls and a couple of treats and toys for the dog and the cat each and Christmas it is a nice little packet and then one last thing is going to be kind of interesting we have a new resident Kim Provost and she came in to register her four or five dogs competition Tom but what she does is she takes a photo of these animals and she creates artwork with it she does fantastic job pastel work she's offered to do that with the winners for both the cat and the dog so that's going to be an additional prize that's going to be and so we'll have those hanging up in our city hall once we get those photos done so I'm really excited about this it's a great program it's a lot of fun well we thank you for thinking about ways to increase this because and it's fine as I was buying we did that the sign out front I was at Lowe's and I was talking to the clerk to a young girl and a young guy and they started talking about this fur dog sign and they're like oh dogs, yeah do you have a dog yes do you register them why do you need to register so people really have no idea why this is done and you know it is state law that every dog every dog should be registered and as you know South Burlington added cats in the late 80's I believe but it's truly a safety for the community people say oh you're just trying to make more money for the city it's not it's truly a safety thing Justin will say he just had to buy whales tails by collecting this data I can then sort it we forgot the name the breed, the size everything you want to know about the pet so I don't know if that helped I was able to download that database send it to Justin he can go digging through trying to find a pick on a black lab black lab that lives around that area and try and find out if they can locate that dog to find out so that person doesn't have to go through the rabies shots so there is a reason why we do this and I don't want to lose that in all the fun of what we do with this if anybody is watching out there and you have a dog, you have a cat and you haven't registered it yet please come in and do so I'll get my soapbox now so this is the cats I don't know you want to draw there's a lot of pressure I tell you and word on the street they're the most beautiful dog and cat of all of self-belief I guess gifts aside and I brought my glasses I can make sure I get the right I'm Madeline Clark and the winning one is 59 oh an early one so this is the cat I was early this year so 59 oh pair more word on boots so black and white domestic short hair cat I was early with the dog you don't have a cat we got one more congratulations to boots yes I have been shaking these things for three days so there are so mixed up it's not even funny it's 42 wow early numbers this time and in the dogs 42 belongs to Carol Henry on four sisters road Teddy a box Boston Terrier so boots and Terry no Terry Terry or Teddy so we will contact them and let them know of their prizes and well thank you very much for your time tonight Ray of sunshine okay thanks so let's move on to announcements and the city manager's reports any announcements Megan yeah like the two of you I went to the visioning meeting for the schools middle school and high school renovation and new building projects and I have to say the third time you start to really it starts to really sink in yeah and I don't know that I have anything more to report other than I did you know take a little trip with my family by bike to City Center Park this weekend Saturday morning which was beautiful and it's gorgeous it's absolutely gorgeous my daughter who hadn't been there for opening day and I hadn't taken her she just her eyes lit up and she's this is an eight year old girl so she was going through those tunnels and she you know imagined we're reading Laura Ingalls Wilder's series of Little House and the Prairie and she imagined you know that she was out there on the prairie and she just oh cool it was very cool it's a magical place and I just I really want to put it out there I think it's a real pleasure for South Brillington and I really encourage everyone to really see City Center taking place I know that change is difficult I know that for families of central school that it's shocking to see the change that that goes on but I think that we are all committed to replanting trees and we are all committed to making this a really beautiful place it's it's already visible how beautiful it's going to be so I just I really I really want to make an appeal to people out there to really you know make it make it yours but also have the patients to see it through and I think that's that's really what we need is the patients and the commitment to see this through because it's it was really breathtaking for me I really got a sense of what City Center was going to be when I went to that park this weekend so I just hope everyone can get out there and get that sense great Tom three things I went to the park and wrecks bingo night in this room a week and a half ago I've never seen so many people having fun in this room it was really a great event 150 every night this was really fun I mean there were prizes there was bingos being screamed I didn't win anything but that's okay so that was great and it really tells me more bingo so a lot of community members want more bingo I also we had our second Sexton's meeting here and one thing that came up is we're not sure if we're the Cemetery Commission or the Sextons if we're one in the same and we're also right now we're violating open meeting locks I'm talking about Cemetery Commission meetings and there's a quorum of us so I won't say anything about what we discussed so one concern we have is there's only three members it's hard for us to feel good about talking about things so we send an email to Kevin and we're going to look into it and see if the council wants to reconsider the Cemetery Commission of yesteryear that function until 1997 but you'll hear more about that the last thing I want to say is tomorrow is the GMT public hearing down in Berlin and we'll be considering changes to next gen I had a great meeting you were also at Megan Councilor Emery and I'm really glad you were there really voiced a lot of important perspective on route 12 and interlining with the college street shuttle so I don't think we're going to be making any decisions on the fair tomorrow but tomorrow at GMT we will be voting to move forward or not or considering some of these very large scale changes to bus service in the region okay I too went to the school visioning meeting I found it it was my first time because I only heard it when I joined at the last steering committee and I just by phone so I didn't see the pictures and stuff and it's pretty complicated with eight different choices and a challenge to follow so I probably should need to go to a few more to get a better sense but I certainly was impressed with how the school board and whomever else is helping them with the vision I guess the architects and so forth are really trying to take into account education in the 21st century and what that needs to look like or what they're already doing and the limitations of the current space so that was comforting to see that it was more than just we have too many kids or you know stuff is crumbling so we'll see what happens with that but it's important for the public to know that our high school is too small for yes the current population I think that high school is too small the middle school is has some room but it's the wrong shape so and then another thing I went to as serving on the channel 17 board we had a I think I've mentioned this in the past there's some real challenges with the FCC and funding changes that have been made in terms of well the reality of more people or excuse me less people using Comcasts or that kind of television programming and doing live streaming so the revenue the way the federal government set this up through the FCC is that all the public or the private television stations or not stations but what do you call trend the ones who transmit it you know like Comcasts and stuff cable providers cable providers yeah were obligated to support public access television in return the municipalities allow them to use the poles the telephone poles or if they're underground the underground corridors for free and that's a municipal we own that and we give them permission so it was kind of this quid pro quo and the FCC is changing that rule or potentially changing that rule so we had a wonderful roundtable with congressman Peter Welch and so it was a wonderful opportunity for him to hear from all the channels around public access channels and to share their stories and what they actually do for the public I also spoke because I from the perspective of the three of us and often five of us how important it is for us to have public access so the voters in our community the public here's our debate our conversation gets more of the potential nuance or understanding of the complexity of some of the issues that we deal with verses and I think the other paper does a wonderful job but that's a translation that someone sitting here hearing us and then translating that into words for an article and I while I think they do a very good job it still is not the real sort of democratic conversation that we have and then we vote so it was really important I think for congressman Welch to understand that and he appreciated that perspective so that was I think helpful and important meeting he certainly appreciates our issue and will do he's on the right committee so maybe something will happen but it certainly is very concerning to me not just because I'm on channel 17 but we're involved in local democracy and to me public access is sort of you hear it from the horse's mouth it's not translated it's the real deal it's what we've really talked about or heard from people testifying yeah so so it's really fundamental to our democracy and I think the national media both print and TV and radio is becoming more and more difficult or having more difficulty in translating some of the issues that are going on in a open and uncritical way I guess unfiltered unfiltered yeah and I think that's really very very important and we are so I want to make sure we preserve that in Vermont so that's my spiel city manager's report got a few things for you South Burlington resident member of the Economic Development Committee John Burton and I participated in a press conference at Champlain some time back about the partnership with consensus and consensus being a pilot project of a of a blockchain technology first piloted by our own Donna Kinville city clerk with another company Propey but this would be the second blockchain company that's wanted to work with the city of South Burlington this technology is involves surveying polling and having the ability to have ongoing polling on certain subjects and so we're hopeful that this product gets rolled out to the public in early June we'll be putting poorly working on a communications plan we'll be putting out a lot of information to the public about doing this and it's a app-based program that allows you to weigh in on various issues of importance to the community so the governance side of the community and so it's pretty exciting that the council and staff will be able to get some real-time data on how how the members of the public are thinking about any given issue at any given time and then have it have it continue on and a view may change over time so we'll have more on that they could are they part of the conversation or have not yet but certainly the question with the visioning for their schools they would want to have their ear close to the ground it city and the municipal government and the school district could take advantage of this again and we hope we'll have a better briefing on that at one of your meetings in May a more detailed briefing by the way I at your last meeting you had two residents who appeared to talk about traffic calming on Midland Avenue I think I've sent you the staff's recommendation on that Justin and Paul got together to talk about that and they want to do the beginning of that are some traffic counts I've got copies of the staff proposal back on the table for any members of the public who wanted to see that tonight there's nothing wrong with that. If you want to comment back based upon the draft let me know and we'll take it to Justin and Paul. We're hosting a committee leadership meeting on the 30th of May this is an annual meeting of the leadership of the various many committees just to give some training to talk about among themselves about how they manage their committees and so on and then in September at a date yet to be set an all committee summit so every member of every committee would be invited to come in and talk about the work that they're doing and learn from the other community committees that hasn't been set yet that's it will be in September also last thing on committees ads will be in the paper in the other paper next week advertising the position openings for the various committees in the hopes that we can start that process in June with interviews this year can we get the attendance of the members for that just because you know I've heard some feedback on a particular committee and I would just like the stats there on attendance members of the committee members if they if they have it should be in the minutes but if right it would take a while to aggregate all that well maybe the future we should have some process where that gets aggregated as it goes along just because I think in our apply to be reappointed should we have that be part of it I think I would think so if they aren't attending or have a less than stellar attendance I can talk to Celine about because the committee's a lot of meat we used to get those stats on the on the applications and then I don't know what happened and always filled out by the by the applicant themselves as to how many did she yeah I think she did yeah we do okay let me look into that we should probably collate them as the meetings occur versus having to go back through through the minutes um I will I'll look into that with Celine get what we can do another scheduling matter common roots would like to host a dinner for the council on May 20th hoping that's beyond UVM stuff at 5 p.m. on the at the Wheeler house now that will that that's for you but it has to be an open and worn meeting so I hope Carol it's got a few more plates so anyway Carol wants to host Carol and common roots want to host a dinner for you but and this is before your meeting May 20th meeting also and this might be subject to change we're looking to host a lunch for Justin's team at DPW the council wants to host a luncheon for the team at on June 3rd at noon at Wheeler but we've now found out that the week of May 20th 20 to 24 public works national appreciation so maybe if all the stars come into alignment we can do it during that week and the council can participate in that and we have that so right about this is sort of a thank you for the horrendously challenging winter seems to be ongoing tomorrow Helen and I are going down to the Ways and Means Committee to testify this will be the second or third session where South Burlington has been represented on the H545 which is the Charter Amendment and it will be before the Ways and Means Committee and they'll probably be at a point where they're going to probably try to make a decision on this reminder about the steering committee on 522 next or on 422 April 22 at 630 in this room and then a shout out I guess is the term to Justin and Jake I'm going to have to say it probably is it Jake who's changing out the lights? Scott Jacobs changing out the lights on Dorset Street putting the LEDs in place it's going to not only save a lot of money a great initiative save a lot of money and thank to Lou Brzee our energy manager for pushing this along but also much needed improvement in the lighting in Dorset Street as well as those old Cobra heads have gotten and we have a lighting expert in our midst here but as those old Cobra heads in the bulbs have worn out the illumination has really suffered so all good stuff so thank you and are they out the lights already or not all they're in progress right they're not all up any council committee reports gosh maybe we're open space yes one less yeah yes I did yes we have been testing our kind of scoring sheet and we just started doing that at the last meeting which was two weeks ago Tuesday looking at various you know parcels over four acres and seeing how they score and we're going to continue doing that at Wednesday's meeting this week we're just kind of testing it and then seeing if any tweaks need to be made and then we would make it public and hope to have lots of comment right well maybe we can use this survey tool yeah tool should be available in June okay moving on to the consent agenda so do I have a motion to approve ABCD and E as presented so moved second with the question one has been waiting for two years is there a reason for that or two have been waiting actually for a couple for this existing storm order permits yeah are you talking about any can Justin weigh in on that you certainly may these are the private ones that were taken over right a couple of reasons it took the state a long time to realize that they weren't going to develop a process for this so if you remember back in last October we updated a couple parts of our store more ordinance and including the the SUFA SUFA that you approved that basically created the legislative means for these takeovers to happen for years we all were waiting for the state to come up with this process they punted frankly to municipalities so while there's been a variety of completed projects there wasn't a mechanism for this turnover to occur and the state had to approve subsequent to your October approval the state had to approve our process so as you can imagine that takes time and here we are today with some older projects that we can finally put under the umbrella of our MS for which is better for you as a commercial store owner because stormwater is not what you do and it's better for us and that it ensures a higher level of quality inspection maintenance on the systems of an equitable cost-sharing that's why and they've been made aware of the wait and the reason yes I think it is important just to note before we vote on this that this be is really approving our agreement to support the purchase of the so called Ewing parcel that's in South Burlington that really complements a lot of the other area conserved land around Shelburne pond as well as I know I think applying for a grant for the electric charging stations on Market Street will this kind of a nice thing I'm glad we're moving forward with that so if there are no other questions I'd entertain a motion to approve the consent even moved and okay all in favor hi hi okay now we move down to 11 justin's still here this is a justin night update update on the status of installation of adaptive signal control systems on Dorset Street and Williston Road Yahoo I hope it's a good update so just real quickly like Donna had mentioned with the dog licensing program and it's robustness as health officer tis the season for dog bites we've already had three in the past week so it's a very useful tool for both the control officers out of the police department and myself when we have to when we have incomplete information about the offending dog and or its owner it's really great for us to kind of go back to this tool and because as Donna mentioned this is really about public safety and as you can imagine if you were bit in the hand by a pit bull as have occurred last week in both hands as a matter of fact and you didn't know the vaccination status of the dog it's probably unsettling to you so that's a good point. So adaptive signal control as I had described I think last time I was here on this topic as soon as and we have good news on this front right now this would be one of my projects in addition to the three other multi-million dollar capital projects that are ongoing that I'm managing and then the countless other ones of smaller and the day-to-day fairs of it and stuff so the message always was once one of these large projects falls off the books that opens capacity to slide another one in with adaptive being the next one. We have some good news down on the Hadley sewer project our contractor had another project that's slow to get out the gate this season so they're kind of sending another a second crew down there so we're literally weeks away and you all might want to consider some sort of we can probably improvise some sort of a turning of the switch or shutting off of the valve in a ceremonial manner to represent whatever the opposite of ribbon cutting for that. So I have a meeting that's been scheduled with the RPC for a few weeks so it's actually a kind of a timely request to talk about this knowing that the end of the Hadley project is imminent I had scheduled a meeting with the RPC to reignite the adaptive project so that's this Friday at 10.30 if you remember last year we were essentially forbade from accessing our funds and we had lobby with the legislature to get the funds put back into the transportation bill so we literally legally weren't allowed to do any work on this project until July 1 of last year by which time all of these other projects were well under way including and Councilor Emery had mentioned the city center park at that time so there just wasn't the capacity within the department and I'm the only one in department that does transportation based projects so we have other folks that do our utility projects but from a transportation background perspective those fall to me so the message was always as soon as capacity opened up and capacity is opening up here in the real short term and we've already engaged the RPC to kind of dust off our work I can provide the manager an update after that Friday meeting with some sort of a timeline and what we think implementation would look like so probably not the update you wanted to hear you probably wanted to hear a ribbon cutting you know in July but that's just not the reality from a resource standpoint but the good well it's starting though right excuse me it's going to start it is starting yes yes but the good news is you know these other recent projects we've been fortunate enough to have voter approval and the ability to I mean city center park voted completed for really kind of written this interesting time where these not too many communities are under projects of this size over a long period of time nonetheless a condensed period of time so we're really fortunate as a community to have all these all this support for these projects so this is the next one to pop on the radar for us will there be a vote when you say the support you're talking about public support support for past publicly funded projects the adaptive signal project is still using the proceeds from a 2005 federal earmark so it requires no additional bonding authority from the public at this point and didn't require any to begin with again it was a federal grant back in the heyday of earmarks out of DC are we lucky they let us keep it that long well they've you know they've done the whole clawback thread a few times yeah but we've the intimate steps we've taken and the positive state put on us last year it's frankly worked in our favor so did you get the note regarding the crosswalk across from San Remo Drive on Dorset Street will there be how will that process go determining how long the crosswalks will be I don't know I guess I'm not I don't know what you're referring to but if the question is how long do we give pedestrians across the street that is dictated by I won't bore you with the acronym but there's another federal governing document that stipulates the feet per second that you are to allow a pedestrian of crossing time and when we have exclusive all stops intersections for pedestrians that's the amount of time in accordance with those federal standards that people are given all right so I believe it's four feet one second for every four feet of crossing time so if you have a 60 foot crossing you would have 15 seconds so it's not related to who lives on the other side for instance people who need a little bit more time well conversely if it was next to a place where they were theoretically you know like a school or a theoretically able body you know it's the feds take a look at our population in general they don't there certainly isn't an average time four feet per second is actually a very gradual slow pace frankly so they set that standard based on demographics it's not a per state or per city or per location we could probably we could certainly lengthen it we can't shorten it but we could lengthen it at the expense of you know green lights for traffic but yeah we can always lengthen we can't shorten that at what step of the process would that lengthening occur it really isn't related to adaptive signal control it's any of those requests can be standalone if we have a demonstrated need where we have pedestrians that just can't whatever the impediment is whether it's the amount of crossing time but the absence of crossing whatever it is we can deal with those on a case by case basis and then sometimes we don't have the right little placards in place to let folks actually know some people get halfway across the street and then the blinking hand starts some people are incorrectly interpreting that as a stop or that what that actually means is that this point you are not to enter the intersections pedestrian but through a variety of circumstances whether it's age or accidents our signs might not be as complete as maybe they need or they're not up to date as a standard so there's probably some clarity we can lend to some of these locations as well to give Peds a little bit more of an advantage yeah I have to say I love the new one on Heinsberg Road and Hayes Avenue and whatever that other road is that goes up Eldridge I use it often because that's where I walk with my friend works great although people go through it I mean you have to the blinking lights yeah oh just for the crosswalks yeah that works really well but here we're talking about traffic signals right yes and yes I know you're both referring to there's a lot that you're talking about so I'm just trying to keep track okay so that's that the winter season recap and schedule slash priority for paving recap winter having lived it it's a little bit traumatic it's not quite over yet yeah we insulted last week but I believe in the three quarter year budget narrative we included some statistics about the amount of snowfall the number of days we responded as well because going back as far as 2013 I believe our salt use per ton by year and this year stands out as as the leader in the clubhouse in terms of the amount of salt use but I think what you oftentimes you can have a really snowy winter or a winter that's kind of wet and pothole rough we had both and not just we this is certainly not going to survive anywhere in the area you'll know it's not a South Burlington only issue because we had to apply so much salt salt keeps walk salt keeps the snow in a liquid state at a lower temperature 15 to 17 degrees it can still be liquid with the presence of salt which is great from a vehicular safety standpoint but the compounding negative effect is you now have more liquid on the roadway that is seeping into whether they're the existing voids that on a decent because a pavement is just rock and a liquid aggregate so by definition there's going to be some voids in between the rock and the liquid or on an older section where we have cracks that water seeping into the pavement and then as it freezes it's expanding and popping then a car drives over it and the force of that car breaks it up and wash rinse repeat so when we're applying salt at the level we are when we have the amount of free cycle that we did there was a decent stretch of time where we would you know freeze overnight warm up during the day freeze overnight so we were you know sisyphisy pushing the rock up the hill running out every morning from 7 to 9 salting the same roads every day only to have the sun come out do the job for us and then they would freeze overnight again and so that does two things one we're just we're using a lot of salt for public safety but two we're never escaping their repetitive freeze cycle and the presence of our salt is frankly contributing to the continued deterioration of the roadway so and certainly the interstate over by state michael's call exit 15 the state was always on that bridge after 9 a.m. you know closing down lanes fixing potholes other communities and you know I think we saw and we had our own problems I think I alluded to in the budget narrative of aura was what I sent to corally I've written a lot of things lately certainly sections of doorset sections of spear airport parkway and by no means am I trying to exclude the dozens of other locations that were kind of repetitive but in the winter there are only certain materials available to us the hot mix asphalt plants shut down so we use a cold material that's really good because it's pliable and it can kind of be installed really easily off the back of a truck and because it's pliable it doesn't really it doesn't need a roller or standard compaction because frankly it's not going to take to it but the next time that hole gets wet and cars drive over it it's going to you know we're doing the same thing at the same hole you know half a dozen times in a month what I think I'm hearing you say which I really hope the other paper reports on is it was a really rough winter and that's why there's so many potholes it was a relief it was a really rough winter it was a unique winter in terms of as I've described and I believe it was self-evident throughout at least northwest Vermont that I'm aware of that it was a real epidemic to local and state government to conditions of the roadways and it was certainly if you looked at the budget it was for it wasn't for a lack of spending money and I got not to get into the budget narrative but any of these winter widgets the units that we purchase including the pavement those things are already well over budget and sand just doesn't work sand gives you traction on dirt roads you really don't want to be throwing well sand can work at lower temperatures and salt because salt at lower temperature salt just going to freeze and not break up as much sand obviously different composition it can work at lower temperatures but we also have liquid that we can add to our salt so it has a really low effective temperature so we don't really have the need for sand unless outside of these really terrible days but also if you're throwing sand all over your roads you're really turning them into a disaster once everything dries out there's kind of mud everywhere and from a stormwater standpoint it's the opposite of the best management practice oh okay so I'm not aware of communities that apply sand other than on dirt roads it's what you put use on dirt roads a sand salt mixture but we have a very limited stretch of dirt roads in South Burlington so we don't even really maintain a sand inventory for winter purposes the priority plowing schedule that was also something that we wanted to have you kind of enlighten us on Helen and I both wanted to have feedback with regard to Williston Road and the use of the sidewalks for people in wheelchairs or for me the bus located in the middle of a block and what I took away from that GMT meeting was that they have kind of these priority stops that they also serve this right is that did I understand that correctly I wasn't so on that point two things one the standard policy for Green Mountain Transit is when there's snow banks they just pull up to the driveway closest to the the bus stop and then the second thing is I think they've identified a few senior homes where GMT does their best to help clear a path but it's not they do have a roving staff and pickups and shovels frankly that you see out the county shoveling out access to GMT but it's been a rough winter so priority for road plowing it's obviously the main roads and school routes so unless it's a real snow a big storm in which we would call everybody in if it's a overnight or a smaller event we're out focusing on the main roads which are self-evident as well as the school bus routes and a lot of school bus routes aren't main roads because obviously people are living in neighborhoods so our primary street plow routes coincide with school bus routes which we have and the main roads sidewalks are never going to win on a Williston Road from a land use perspective there's so many commercial properties that align Williston Road that are almost entirely impervious and so what do we do when we get home from our day at work we have to build our driveways well our driveways are 15 feet wide and 30 feet deep and sometimes you don't have a sidewalk on our side of the road on Williston Road you have sidewalks on both sides of the street you have impervious everywhere so we have to deal with private property shoving snow everywhere and frankly back in our way but also you have the road plow you know these four lane roads you're taking two lanes of snow and you're trying to store it in a very narrow green belt and just think about the physics of at what point does that mound of snow in the green belt at what point can it not sustain itself before it just does this well in winters like this that happens quite frequently so you have two lanes of road snow 20 feet of road snow 24 feet in some areas 2, 3, 4 feet of green belt you have the sidewalk snow which is 5 feet wide that's you're trying to just store frankly wherever you can put it and then you have private properties pushing their snow every which way it takes us days after it stops snowing once the road once the road plows have stopped coming by and keep continuously re-encumbering the sidewalks with the road snow once that has finally stopped that's when sidewalks can be made clear we have three sidewalk plows it takes almost eight hours to turn a route once so it's a math problem per route you're saying each route how many routes? we have three sidewalk routes in the city and that's a function of material or equipment and people so if it takes we had some events where it was snowing 1, 2 inches an hour so if I go by your house in the morning and then I'm not coming back until 6 at night there could be 9 new inches of snow just waiting for me so all and our road routes were able to turn anywhere from 3 to 5 hours depending upon what the route is and how the severity of the snowfall but with sidewalks from a resource standpoint I mean it's one of these things where everything's a priority to a lot of folks you have schools all the crosswalks on Dorch Street all the schools everywhere the folks down off Feral Street that rely frankly on pedestrian transportation to get to Shaw's and to get to the bus tonight had then his follow up how is that going to work with city center when we get these big snowfalls we've long said that when it comes to maintenance in the city center there needs to be a separate discussion other areas other communities I've worked in have dedicated personnel to their village or downtown districts so it's simply going to work their department of public works it's simply going to work in whichever way you folks choose to fund it to make it work if it's just going to be another road another area that we're going to maintain no different than the next phase of cider mill or south village or spear meadows or dorset meadows or fill in the blank that comes online if we're left with the same numerator and denominators growing as is the case then are we are those eight hours are going to become nine ten hours easily this is we've had this discussion numerous times city center whether it's through an assessment like other communities do or just the dedication of X number of two or three employees that's all they do because city center isn't just five feet sidewalks if you remember the design in some areas there's 14 feet in addition to there's various street furniture and other things to kind of it's not set up nor should it be it's not set up for ease of maintenance it would kind of be a disaster if it was just set up to be plough easy and inviting location I'm not saying I want to do this but is that part of the rationale for metered parking to start to pay for some of this additional maintenance in higher density areas like city center generally your metered parking is going to pay for the enforcement that you need to enforce metered parking once you start adding two or three FTEs or you know just to walk the streets and monitor the turn over that's how you pay for it it's usually it's not a big revenue generator so those are these are all math problems from our perspective but if the community or the council were to indicate that this is priority A in these other locations Paul Connor and I and we've kicked around ideas of how do we maintain levels of service in the face of growth and it could be like other communities do either if you live in a neighborhood with two sidewalks in the street we're going to pick one and just do the one or if you live in a neighborhood that doesn't have school buses in the winter we're going to do your sidewalks after we get everything you know so we could do we could not do the bike paths a lot of communities don't plow their bike paths so people can do cross-country skiing frankly on them so there's a lot of options we can make that don't involve the allocation of additional money we can make choices and prioritize within our own city is that should we see first level maintenance and so on so it's our job to bring those ideas and concepts forward of which we have them kind of cued I think the council would like that I don't know how much time and energy that takes but to have that priority to understand yeah we have about ten different ideas along the lines of the couple that I was just spitballing that are ways to focus service in some areas or maintain levels or improve levels of service without additional expenditures of course there's corresponding tradeoffs but is that something that especially for city center Wilson Road, Dorset Street, Route 7 could that be something that the economic development committee could also take a look at well yeah there might be a way to get the services to assist or at least not make it worse I mean you know I mentioned Church Street Marketplace that's membership I think it's membership or assessment driven you know they keep that pretty cleared in winter yeah that's probably 50 feet right the question I had too is and I don't know what they do in Burlington but in Montreal they have the you know the pickup trucks so they have a snow blower blowing into pickup trucks that just drive out of the city so you don't have those piles, those mounds we do do snow removal when we get a chance to catch our breath but this wasn't one of those winters and when we've done it in the past we do it at night just because if you do it today in Wilson Road you can imagine it's the same way we have three or four sidewalk plows with the elongated length and we have outfitted pickups with sideboards and we don't drive it out of town we don't want to send it to Colchester but yeah in the past we've done it along Williston and Dorset every now and then street corners just get piled and so it's tough just to even see around a corner so yeah we've done that in the past but this winter didn't present a lot of opportunities to catch our breath so that's not a go to immediately when you plow that you immediately so if you do that yeah, story removal is always one of those we consider kind of a luxury when we have time to do it if it becomes something we're doing on the front line you're now taking that pickup out of service and that pickup is otherwise plowing a road or a city-owned facility somewhere so we could do that but that's a pickup that is doing cul-de-sacs, parking lots narrow streets of which now especially the SEQ that's more becoming the norm as opposed to Nolan Farm Road we're not building any more Nolan Farm Roads thankfully anymore just given the width of it so because we now have a more sensitive infrastructure and that's what intentionally those are harder to maintain it requires smaller more nimble vehicles but those are the same vehicles that would be catching the snow that the sidewalk clouds are blowing into it I'm not against a prioritization I would just be hesitant to commit too much time to that because I have the opinion from my five years on this body that we have great plowing services in South Burlington and this was just a really rough winter so I mean in previous years people would often remark to me about how great South Burlington Roads are relative to some of our neighbors that shall not be named so I just think this year we partly raised this because the roads were so covered in snow but I think that was just a factor of the nature of the winter but I think it's a good thing to I mean I think it's connected with the cost analysis study of growth that we're still working on trying to pull it together because that is an impact of development and growth more streets, more sidewalks how many pickup trucks do you really need how many staff members and how do you pay for it so to me it's part of that bigger issue of how we grow effectively and thoughtfully with the revenues to support the anticipated level of services that we now experience or potentially want to improve upon I just didn't want to hire a consultant for prioritizing our plowing no no but I think maybe that is a conversation for the Economic Development Committee to think about some of those issues we have the outline of this formed it's just a matter of giving each option some more substance would you like to have a working session with Justin and others maybe in June or July when we're not dealing with snow and talk about those issues in greater depth hopefully with the entire council here I think that would be helpful aren't asked to go off to do something that is takes hours and we come up with yeah it would be great if we had another $200,000 or $500,000 in the budget to pay for it that would be probably schedule an hour and one back thing just back to our salt usage I showed you just the pure salt we used what I didn't include and I should have in hindsight is we have reduced our per ton mile application of salt by almost half in general the old thinking was you would load up the truck with salt you would tip it up as high as it goes and you would dump it out as fast as it came out and you were putting down five 600 pounds a lane mile so that too much salt is unnecessary and there are numbers from the best management practice and so we're in the 225 to 250 pounds per lane mile so we're almost effectively using half the amount of salt we're introducing a little bit more liquid in the situation which helps us and we're pre-salting which also helps but what rough this winter was we're using about half the amount of salt we were a decade ago on a per mile basis and we still use the most we have in my tenure here yes so acknowledging that it was a rough winter the other questions I have for you is because all I've been hearing about are the potholes are there other factors that contribute to the degradation of our roads like studded tires or heavy trucks not bang our weight limits do we have it I had to quit signage are we enforcing are there other factors that are also contributing to the potholes that I'm hearing so much about for many people yes traffic and then certainly heavier traffic and studded tires in 2015 the senate transportation committee took up a bill S81 to consider outlawing studded tires 11 states in the country do it they're oddly enough in the midwest and in warm weather states the closest state to us to outlaw them is Maryland to give you an idea of what people in the northeast in the real winter states legislature had a lot of exemptions built in there for example they were to be allowed from November 20 to April 20 they were to be allowed on dirt roads regardless eventually they decided in the face of I talked to the legislative staff attorney at that time they decide in the face of public criticism that in Vermont why are we trying to screw around the public safety because studded tires don't hurt the roads when there's adequate snow and ice cover but obviously you're running studded tires over bare roadway that adds to the deterioration of the roadway but the state decided upon first reading of the bill and hearing initial testimony to not advance it and I don't believe well it's not our attorney could opine if anyone municipality would even have the authority to do that within their own borders so that adds to it the state has the state offers you as an overweight holler a legal way not you personally all you need to do is apply for an overweight permit in any community in Vermont and you pay $5 if you have one piece of equipment in your fleet and you pay $10 if you have between two and whatever Ireland has pieces of equipment in their fleet so you're an overweight permit and you're allowed to operate overweight on roads in Vermont however you're allowed to operate on certain like in the spring in the spring we have discussions with overweight hollers they I don't want them going down a neighborhood street unless they have to go to a house they usually don't so we work with them to determine day of week time of day and direction in which to access and frankly they're going to all the construction sites we know where they're going they're going to Cider Mill, they're going to South Village so we look at the calendar we usually like to get them there early in the morning when it's still colder and the roads are less punky and susceptible so we do work with I'm about to enter in the season where I have about five of these phone calls a day just talking to material or suppliers, concrete trucks gravel trucks so there's a manner in which we legislate it and even communities that post their roads still have to allow for you can post a road but there's a construction project going on it you can't limit the ability of that vehicle to do commerce frankly so it's how you deal with it we then work with the police department to say the following locations have been given permission within this time window because the police department is one that does enforcement of all of our roadway regulations it's actually a pretty hefty fine and they have I know they do get people I don't know what their enforcement schedule is but if you're anything but a large haul if you're a smaller, medium hauler and you get an overweight fine in any remote community it's extremely punitive so I know by the sheer volume we issue 400 or 500 overweight permits a year so we're capturing a lot of dog and cat licenses we're capturing a large majority of the vehicles but we can't restrict them we can control access I guess is the best way to answer that question so who gets the $5 per fleet or $10 it's one of my if you'll notice in the public works revenue there's a line item for overweight permits $2,000 it's set by state statute I just think that is like many have tried it must cost them more than $5 to issue the permit they come to our office or they email us a permit and they send a check and we sign it and get their insurance and get the insurance over the city hall for $5 or $10 for infinite amount of vehicles but also if you're a hauler you have to do this in every community you're working and if you're so other states have online databases reaching just kind of click but no the Vermont system is as described before we get to paving but are you allowing to talk more? the last question I had for you tonight and this affects you where you live head of residents on Van Sickland just asking do we plan to do any traffic studies on either lowering the speed I know it's a state highway but Heinsberg road route 15 116 thank you for lowering the speed limit as NATO road comes online and if so would we also be looking at Van Sickland road speed limit well thank you for sending us in advance I was able to go back and look at dating back to 2008 the various traffic studies for site and mental phase 1 and 2 there was initial traffic study in 2008 there was a lot of updates and amendments frankly in the last three or four years as you can imagine none of them I've identified an existing speeding problem certainly they're going to generate an induced traffic as any development would but there's nothing to indicate that the existing traffic patterns out there right now are inherently unsafe none of the immediately adjacent areas are listed on the are listed on the states I'm blanking on the I'm blanking on the designation but the state has oh thank you high-class locations and high-class intersections and the closest one we have is the cheese factory and 116 of which there's a mitigation project going on but that's a little bit removed from cider mill phase 2 so nothing in the traffic studies pointed to the additional volume further compounding a speed problem because frankly folks are generally going to speed limit yeah but it's 50 right there that's the speed limit I know I know and there's a bike path that's going to dump into Heinzburg road there's a there's a mechanism thinking great that's just where with a downhill slope perfect for young bicyclists other communities how you can we can petition the state state statute requires an engineering study and best practices to do a speed limit analysis in other words they do not give you the authority without legal cover to just you can do a lot of things on your roads as a legislative body but you can't just change the speed limit without conducting a full traffic analysis for Kennedy drive them to it's true for any Vermont roadway because we raise the issue at the active 50 that very issue that road dumping into Heinzburg where it's 50 miles an hour and people go faster than that because they live there sure there's yeah sure so it would be entirely appropriate for the council to send the letter to secretary Flynn indicating that you have these concerns as we continue to develop the sq and there's going to be hopefully more in different transportation uses in that in the sq and it's being served by a road that has horizontal and vertical curves in which the speed limits 50 and perhaps it's not appropriate and you can petition them to do a speed limit study that's what it's a common that's a common step for a municipality to take I would certainly advocate that and then we've had some complaints or people speaking about Kennedy drive so on any locally on road if the council is willing to allocate the the funds because right now my consulting funds are tied up in the consolidated trash hauling study so I don't have money without overexpending a line item so if folks are willing if there's any particular road depending upon the availability of existing data you could be looking at expense of in the $5,000 range however if it's a location where there's a recent traffic study and the volumes are considered viable that you can certainly reduce the cost but one of the the issues around Kennedy drive is probably I mean you drive down it and if you don't know the community doesn't look like there's a lot of people who live on that road but there's a ton and as you get farther down with the O'Brien development not the one that's going on now but the one that will occur there'll be even more houses and people and businesses and it just so I'm wondering when they get are they permit they're not permitted for their whole thing so as they get as they get into other phases is that who could fund that traffic study they might have to they did perform a traffic study for this project for all of them so that it was through the traffic study that we realized that the crosswalk that you reference across 116 A's was necessary in addition to a new traffic signal at D and a punch in the Kennedy Drive so the traffic study did reveal these existing demands that they would create for the future demands and they are funding those entirely well maybe along with that I mean I know stopping at a light slows you down but if the speed limits still 40 you can just punch it when the light goes green so you haven't really slowed everyone down the council like to pursue this well I look currently on 116 because I you know I don't want it to become one of our next highest crash site with death resulting or whatever I'm surprised Van Siklin isn't a high crash spot it just seems like that'd be a lot I don't know well if when they connected through it might become one they have a they have a there's a mechanism in which you determine the expected amount of crashes and it's I'm sorry is the bend in Dorset a high crash spot and it's how many actual versus expected and what's the what's that ratio that's what determines what a high-crash location is we have plenty long Wilson Road okay I had one more question before the paving and this is something that I've seen other communities ban and that I meant to bring up but when I heard you were coming before us I thought I'd hold off leaf blowers gas powered leaf blowers are extremely polluting is that something that we own as a city is that we own a variety of gas powered maintenance machines leaf blowers push mowers and is that something that we could know lifespan of and perhaps swap for electric powered at some point we're already in it if you will from an urban standpoint of the state considers a leaf that touches one of our roads contaminated just because of the urban nature of our traffic and the petroleum byproducts of transportation so we have to when we sweep the streets we have to test our files to determine what can we do with that accumulated and collected waste so it's called urban background soiles and you've probably heard about that on some Burlington projects and it hit us over on the Market Street project basically any part of developed Vermont is considered to have enough background urban contaminants particularly from transportation transportation that all of these materials that are underneath a roadway are considered hazardous at varying levels but certainly if you want us to evaluate our contribution to that impact we could do that as well some cities ban them for private users as well just because of the noise and the pollution I mean it's noise too although I don't know if the electric ones are quieter they're pretty darn quiet I would assume they would be well that might be something just in terms of environmentally to move away from having you know as we need to replace them replace them with the battery or electric ones and then look for the city too I mean educate people first so that people don't go out and buy a gas powered leave blower to find out next year this council has acted right so what do you do with the contaminated leaves it can be used as ground cover in certain areas it can be used as fill if it's covered permitted landfill sites can take it or permitted dump sites or waste sites so a landowner could have a permitted area too because let's say they want to add fill to their land because they want to give themselves a more buildable profile and if they have the proper permits except certain levels of materials there's a database that we can check into and contact them so what we conversely so what we're trying to, what we tell the state is you've seen us sweep the streets this week, last week, week before so we're kind of throwing us back at the state by saying wait a minute where's our stormwater credit because they don't give us any credit for removing phosphorus and other contaminates through street sweeping but we said well wait a minute you're already telling us they're contaminated we're removing massive quantities of them from our stormwater ways through the sweeping of streets and the plenty of catch basins so we force them into doing a white paper to frankly give communities credit against their stormwater permit for phosphorus for this so we've been able to use these facts to our advantage in other areas okay so we move on to paving consider and possibly approve additional funding for paving for FY 20 so Tom and Justin tag teaming here begin to look at and this isn't something that we need to make a decision on tonight but I think Justin can probably give us a better timeline as to when the bid might go out but if everybody's got their copy so the paving budget for the current fiscal year is 600,000 it's completely used we're just slightly overspent I think we went to 608 as what I saw the budget approved for FY 20 we raised it to 625 we've talked with Justin there's certainly enough potential out there to do additional roads that 275,000 would make a dent in it wouldn't cover everything that we would need but it would be a substantial lift in addition to what is budgeted so we kind of looked at some potential sources for where that might come from and then you also approved tonight the grant that Justin's applied for Dorset Street for the 180 the only question I had on that Justin how far does that take it from where it currently is so in the application that question is there so hopefully it can take us as far south by bidding a larger contract at $900,000 compared to $600,000 we're going to be paying 10 to 15% less per ton of asphalt just from a volume standpoint and hopefully we're able to go as far south to the Shelburntown line right now we've identified from Park Road to Cydermill however if this 180 is added to our budget as opposed to seen as an offset for some of these other numbers then we have additional money to spend whether it's through this project or elsewhere so some combination of that and lower unit prices that are anticipated that we've done in the past I believe hopefully to our southerly border with Shelburntown pending grant funding and final bid results and question two of the grant form so as far south as we can and what if the money doesn't come through here for the surplus or the car rental tax or yeah so let's look at some of these the general fund budget this year we paid to be fairly tight as you remember this was the year we cut almost a million dollars out of the general fund budget so I my hope is that there'll be some but I don't think there'll be a lot Megan the car rental tax Helen and Kevin will have a better feel for that tomorrow Andrew feels Andrew our attorney feels that the 125,000 below that it could be it could be more than that we're trying to get more information from the tax department on that but it's whether or not we would get it at all which is the key piece right now the city senate reserve fund we took from the 750 that's approved for this year we brought it back up to the 860 for next year we probably have a window of one more to do that so if we were to say for this one more year we want to take that 110 and we feel the biggest priority we have right now is to take care of our roads we could probably move some or all of that for the fiscal year 20 budget you have a designated reserve fund of $50,000 you could earmark that for paving if you wanted to at this point and then short of any of those things not providing the money we would need to get to the 275,000 we could just over spend the paving budget which effectively takes money off the balance sheet we could lower the 275,000 and say let's see what the end of the fiscal year gets us if it's 175 then we use that we need to give Justin at some point so he can get the price point that he needs for the additional paving and then just a final note that I'm sure as we look at the fiscal year 21 budget that we may be looking to increase it more substantially than the $25,000 per year to get caught up in some of the roughness that this winter has created so that may be increasing the line item or that you consider a separate ballot vote for additional funding for paving so those are options down the road but I think for right now these are kinds of the kinds of things that would get us to the the 275 with the worst case scenario being it would need to come off the balance sheet and the whole 275 would be significant and I wouldn't recommend that but if you if you're able to take up to the $110,000 dedicate the $50,000 from your designated reserve see what happens with the car rental tax if we get the grant that's $144,000 of unbudgeted revenue so that grant could fade into that because I saw that as an addition to so the way that the grant cycle is about five months after we set our budget so we have already we do not we never anticipate getting these grants remember in a recent budget discussion we had this large miscellaneous receivable on highway so we're always getting that money kind of after the fact just because of our budget calendar versus the grant calendar so if we get the $144,000 which is 80% of the $180 that $144 could either be in addition to any monies or in lieu of some of the things that so I might have misunderstood you on that just that's why I had asked the question and you said I think this would be this would be an addition to one even if we don't get the grant we have we put the budget together without the grant so the paving budget which sits right now at $900,000 I understand that I might have to move pending this discussion it's put together without the grant so if we get the grant that either lessens our need to get money from elsewhere or gives us more money to spend on paving so say that again this says that we approved $625 but you're saying so $625 is the budgeted number $625 is the budgeted number it's approved by the voters in March if we get this Dorset Street paving grant which we'll know very shortly that's an additional $144,000 of revenue that comes into the program that was not contemplating during the budget season so it's new and found money to paving you have said $900,000 $900,000 is the number that we're trying to build a budget of an overall oh so you can get a better price yeah so and Tom's proposing we get to $900,000 by all of these items listed under the underlined possible sources to get $275,000 what I'm saying is in addition to that the item immediately above it which is listed as $180,000 of which it's an 80% grant so it's $144,000 that's new money to this equation that can help offset the need for some of the lower stuff or in a perfect scenario from where I'm sitting more paving that would be your decision do we need to give you a number or would we be able just to give you kind of guidance don't go over or use your best judgment so we we like to have a contract that's bid out to a high degree of certainty because if you bid on my contract at $900,000 then I tell you a month later upon award it's only $600,000 you frankly reserve the legal right to now renegotiate your bid since I've dramatically changed the contract and its quantities if it goes from $900,000 to $860,000 or $840,000 we don't have that discussion so yeah we do need a number that's going to be well within the ballpark and we're prepared to bid this tomorrow at whatever number the council deems appropriate or substantive future discussions remember none of this work can happen before July 1st so it's not as if bidding it tomorrow or next Tuesday makes the paving a week earlier we have to wait until July 1st anyways we have $800,000 with the city center reserve fund and the designated reserve fund we have just short of $800,000 so you said $850,000, $860,000 in the ballpark yeah well well if we whatever number you tell me whatever number you tell Tom I heard you say $900,000 is what you think was the right number so we had talked about $900,000 to at least for planning purposes arrive at a budget in a contract price of $900,000 and then scale from there pending council approval I fully support this because the roads are in disrepair but I would love to just say $900,000 and then if the $144,000 comes in we just don't put that on top of the $900,000 the $144,000 just goes against the $900,000 that seems to fair to me let's just hope that this charter change goes through if the charter change goes through I would say put it on top if it doesn't go through I am with Tom so we so you're agreeing then to use $110,000 of the city center reserve and the $50,000 of the council designated reserve is that right I say get to $900,000 I just wanted to be clear that you were building that number so when we kind of repay I think we rebuilt a road in Laurel Hill but we don't always do that but presumably that road won't need to be rebuilt for I don't know if you consider the top surface of asphalt your roof shingles it's just kind of waterproofing so if you're just re-shingling your road with the top layer of asphalt every 12 to 15 years therefore never really letting the potholes and the water get into the base course of payment or the gravel sub-base that's kind of pavement nirvana it's these areas where you have kind of a historically underfunded system where roads kind of had especially local streets low vine streets had to kind of be neglected if you will so how many streets how many miles of that kind of street do we have we have 82 miles of street I believe there's about 15 miles of class 2 when your class 2s are dorset spear, kennedy, those types of roads airport parkway, white street, allen road then the rest the vast majority the rest of it is probably class 3 which is like a neighborhood residential we don't have any class 4 roadways in Vermont, class 4 roadways are kind of trails or old access roads in more role of Vermont bike lanes those are not part of the calculation we have about 2,000 miles of bike lanes but from a funding formula from the state they don't give us money for that and then we have roughly 5 miles of class 1 to certain sections of wilson road and then there's a state owned highway system which is sections of 116 all of route 7 and wilson road east of millham court you know so we have a mix we have about 100 miles including the interstate of road in south burlington we own about 82 of that so I'm just trying to figure out I mean we had a gentleman come in a number of times he has broken the axle on his car several times and his comment to me and I don't know what it's based on he said well you know what we really need to do is bond for 30 million bucks and just get all the roads done and so I guess my question is I don't know if 30 million dollars is the right number that's a big bond but I mean I think we do need to spend as much as we can on our roads this year because they're a mess but as you say I don't really want to have a policy if you will of we put the asphalt on top of a bed it's all the roads that we bid and select we conduct whatever treatment is necessary sometimes you can pave on top of it, sometimes you can grind the road and repave, sometimes you have to do a more substantial rebuild so we apply a variety of treatments to our roads we don't have one solution system we have a rebuild of any particular road coming up Ben Sicklin was going to get rebuilt no we repave right now the roads we're looking at our most substantial work is a mill infill which is where you kind of grind down the existing and then you place asphalt on top of it we have no rebuild scheduled for the season so does that mean we don't need any rebuilds? no, what it means is our main roads, Dorsett Street Spears Street, Airport Parkway those need more attention we certainly could so the question you're getting and asking is what level of our roads need to rebuild and we can certainly conduct that analysis I don't know the number on top of my head that's a big number on an individual per mile basis, much bigger than paving I mean it just seems like we should have a plan a paving plan it's maybe 20 years but so that we had a pretty good idea in the fall of what we're doing this spring it's entirely different now well I understand that plans are, you know, there are lots of budgets it's just the frame that you haven't changed we can take a look at what percentage of our roads need a rebuild I was going to say striping when does that start? yeah okay there's still that issue of the jog over on Wilson Road when you're going towards the interstate and I've had this suggestion from a public member to have arrows on the ground at the moment of that jog right there, follow the arrow to the right, is that something that we could do? I know you have a sign we have overhead signs when the roads are freshly painted we get complaints so the real solution is we're going to make a change the lane assignment through the intersection in conjunction with the holiday and redevelopment which we'll we're kind of getting over in time here I won't go into now but it's my view that you can put whatever you want on that roadway and it's still going to be a problem to a certain percentage of the folks we can certainly add it we have signs on the green belt I think that people think that what it's on the ground though because those signs, gosh, there's so many things on Wilson Road you just are too distracted to really see those signs but you look at the ground right we'll happily try it out thanks are you looking for us from tonight a approval of the budget increase and do we have to couple that with a funding source approval or can we just approve spend more money on the roads and figure out the funding later I think Justin needs a number that he can feel secure with I kind of like Megan's suggestion try to get there and then if we do get the grant that that would be in addition if we don't get the grant we're probably going to need the rest of it if we get the car rental text I think she was saying then that could be on top but if not because that's a pretty good piece and we'll find a way to do it do a good job tomorrow we're counting on you team we'll do that is that where the council is is it 900? yes it's not like we're setting the line item to 900 for next year I think you can probably anticipate we're going to come back this is for FY20 for FY21 the roads need it they do, okay there's fire trucks that are so heavy so do we need to vote on that should we vote? that's a pretty budget pretty big jump once you approve the paving bid we can reference it this vote and we're waiting for the auditor to find out you have the authorization to move money between funds only the council can do that by the charter let's see if we need to have an official motion that does that along with the paving bid we could write it into the paving bid approval we could write the various funding sources into it at that point because I think we should go on the record we're waiting for the bid we have to approve the bid anyways and then we'll have Tim and Dave as well I do think this that's a lot of money even to move around but that's fine thank you happy thank you thank you alright it's nine o'clock can we take just a five minute break for sue and then we only have three more items oh and then a couple other business we're not going to move we're not going to move we're not going to move yeah we're not going to move I don't know I don't know I don't know we're not going to move what's happening we don't care we've got to do a couple of minutes so you've got some money you know but we're not going to move so I don't know you just have to move I don't know I don't have money we're not going to move no additional we're not going to move we're not going to move they're getting home I was just a bit. I remember when I was a therapist, I was like, why do you have a therapist's son at this point? I don't know. I thought that, um... Well, because I was kind of going on... I was afraid I was going to, you know... I was the engineer of the neighborhood. And I know what neighborhood is. It's been a very interesting experience. It's been a lot of work on that. It's been a lot of work on that. I don't know if we need to do that in general. But I said the same work. How about understanding... How about doing a vehicle and trying to... We make a contract. What are you for? I don't know. And they put in... Well, I'm a residential grade. I'm a home-server. I'm a home-server. I'm a home-server. I'm a home-server. We'll see. We'll see what happens because I don't know... I'm not, I'm not in what I want to... But I don't want to, you know, I don't want to be a bit of a comment, or a comment, like, and become a little sub-blogger. So we're nearing the end. There's so much I'll say about it, I will find out about that. Hold on a minute. But actually, hold on. I know you're a really useful commentator, but then you say, oh, then again, I'm so worried about you. Well, I'm totally fine. I mean, I'm like, how do you do it? I don't think you do it. They won't try me to do it, even though it's social marketing. They need to come in and let me respect the way they want it. You guys are going to do another thing with this year? Yeah. You're so speedy. You're just the best commentator. Yeah. It's a graphic feature. We're actually, I think, we're in the city. Well, it depends on which year we're going to be in. Now, we're going to be in the city. Yeah, I don't know about that. Thank you. I don't know. We're going to be in the city. We're going to be in the city. We're going to be in the city. I don't know about that. I don't know. I don't know how it's going to work. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know how it's going to work. I don't know how it's going to work. I just don't know how we're going to do it. That was our biggest priority. That's why we wanted to push this forward. Because I'm not 100 percent sure how we get people into that parking lot while it's under construction. Particularly kids. Okay. So why don't we start again? I'd like to reconvene the South Burlington City Council meeting of April 15, 2019. And we're up to item 15, which is consider and possibly approve the local emergency management plan. Better known as LEMP. LEMP. Terry Francis is going to LEMP up here. Our Chief. Welcome. Good evening. Terry Francis, Chief Engineer of the Fire Department, also the Emergency Meadow Director, Bar Marshal, Chief Inspector. Excuse me. So in your packet, we're at that time of year, which is an annual event for all of us pursuant the state law to have the City Council adopt the local emergency management plan. There's a change in name and title this year compared to last year, and there's been a change in the form that you have seen in your packet. Oh, we didn't see it in our packet. Okay. It usually has the name of the contact. I know Terry sent it. Yeah, I sent it. I can vouch for that. So in a, I'm sorry that you don't have it. I had assumed. If I can pull it up and forward it to you. Are you sending it now, Ted? Yeah. So while Tom's doing that, I'll just continue to speak. So the paperwork that goes along with this, the plan itself hasn't changed substantially at all. It's derived by state statute. Has to be adopted by May 1st of every year by you folks. What they have done with this quote unquote new form and the new name of the form is the local emergency action, local emergency plan. What it does is they've actually listened to the emergency management planners and our input to the state for a few years now is that we need a base document that is usually friendly. That if you need information, it's usually found within the first five or six pages of the document and you're not going through a 44 page document to find the telephone numbers and initial action plans to implement your local emergency plan at the Emergency Operations Center. So what it does is it identifies the key players, has their phone numbers and all of that all within the first few pages. Tells you right up front where the shelter areas are, who the contacts are for the shelter areas. What are the agencies that might be needed to assist you, give you the names and phone numbers and backup names and phone numbers for those assets to help you mitigate the emergency that you're involved in. Some of you folks have taken the NIMS program. It was offered by the state a few years ago to give you kind of an overview of how this, what the national incident management plan is all, a national incident management system is all about. So anyway, so that's basically what the form does. What I did not include in your, in your packet was the names of the child care centers and alike because those are all immediately available online and end up to date. So did you find it, Tom? Did you get them? Yes, we did. So the first five pages you say are the new condenses? Yeah, you'll see it says page one and two are the initial documents and then there should be the declaration from the governor requiring this document be adopted that's sent out by the state every five years. And then the follow-on pages are the, how you intend to notify people that there's an emergency, what has a, what vulnerable populations that you have, how you're going to get in touch with them, and then talks about sheltering at all. And then there's a whole contact information sheet on page seven that has all the numbers for the emergency manager or the coordinator to be able to call at various hours of the day to get notification to you folks and to get assets in to help us in a type two incident or greater. What is type two incident? Yeah, great question. So some years ago now the national incident emergency, the incident command system or the national emergency, national incident management system decided that we needed, we the fire services and emergency managers needed to be able to talk of a common language is really what it comes down to. So it's command and control of an incident and then the number of assets needed to control that incident type is derived by how many, how many resources you need to deal with the emergency. Typically the fire department last year dealt with 3,700 type five, four, and three incidents. That means that we're able to handle it with local, with local resources, local assets, and we're not looking at a long-term operational period. When you get into the type two and type one incidences, Irene would be an example of a type one incident. You're having a local jurisdiction is being overwhelmed by the incident. They need outside assets, state assets, federal assets. And then there's a whole system that we can put into play and we actually have literally have a playbook that we can use as a pocket guide. You may remember. I have one. I still have it. Absolutely. And I have it and mine's pretty worn. So that tells you that I use it. As just kind of a quick reminder to the emergency manager, fire chief, police chief is what type of, what type of incidents there is and then how to start that ball rolling to jog their memory is like, okay, you're in over your head. Here are the agencies you need to call to start getting more help. And these are the things that you need to start thinking about. Do I need to get people sheltered in place? Do I need to get resources out to folks? Where are those resource storage sites? Those are all pre-planned into this water break and we have no water for people for a state asset national guard primarily that's activated by the state and get water buffalos out to neighborhoods to make sure that people have drinking water, that type of thing, for example. So that's what the plan is designed to do. It's all hazards mitigation, meaning that it looks at all things both natural and man-made and allows us to react to that in a timely fashion. So we're not going, oh yeah, I took that class five years ago. What do I have to do now? Yeah, but it's designed to do that. And this is honestly the first time in my career that the federal government's actually listened to the people out in the field and said, hey, how about if we come up with a much simpler form? And that's what they've come up with with this local emergency management plan. So tonight potentially there's some communities that are dealing with rising water and some flooding. So they would have pulled together their team. Yep, they should have at least contacted each other by phone. I know down south they're having some issues right now. I was actually talking to Chief Brent and Barry. They were looking at what they call an actionable warning issued by the state, by the National Weather Service and Vermont Emergency Management saying that the river is getting to a stage where you really need to start thinking about action. And in that point they pull out their plan and say, okay, we know where our flooding areas are, just like we know where they are in South Burlington and their few, thank goodness. It's like, okay, we know these are our hazard areas. If we need to move people, let's get them moved now. Let's not wait until it's any deep water and going up to your hips. Let's start getting these people moved now. Let's hear the shelter locations. Let's get those shelters open. Let's get the Red Cross involved. Get the assets over there to make sure that people can be sheltered appropriately. And they're having those conversations tonight. Actually, they started having those conversations two or three days ago. Probably, yeah. I mean, it's bad that we're having flooding, but it's a predictable event. The more challenging events are man-made, because oftentimes they come without any kind of warning. Local weather can be very challenging for us. I know a couple of years ago, we had a squall line that came through with high winds, 60, 70 mile an hour winds, three inches of rain. In my community where I live, the road I lived on was cut off. There was no getting around it. We had high water on both sides and the roads were gone. And that happened in 40 minutes. Now, the squall had been predicted, but the severity of the event was not well predicted. They couldn't. I developed over the lake as kind of its own little microsystem and came through the town like the Hammers of Hell. And we all adapted and got stuff done and got roads repaired in a very short period of time. And people went on with their lives as it should be. And that's because they used their local emergency management plan to resolve all of those issues. When I went through the training, one of the things that still stands out in my mind is the process of depending on the emergency and what is happening, the point person could be someone you wouldn't necessarily assume would be in charge because they don't really have the skills. They may be the city manager, but what does he know? Probably not. No, I'm saying one might assume. But it could be. Somebody's out of town. Might be, but there's a whole list and it sort of happens almost organically and people don't say, well, they don't feel like, well, I'm supposed to be doing that because I'm the police chief. But they really kind of organize it in a way that isn't that sort of bureaucracy junk where it's like, well, we've got to make sure that his feelings aren't heard. And it really is a team. You really put the right person in. And I think that's what helps you make it work. You played with the strength of the members. Absolutely. It was very comforting to know that. It would be almost sort of automatic that the best trained person with the right skills would assume the leadership and everyone would support that. And the idea also is to have multiple individuals available to do that in case somebody's out of play. This is really the purpose of that. In the adoption form that has to be signed off by you folks, I realized last night that I made a email error. My middle name is not Xavier. So my email is incorrect. I have a corrected document in front of me. Should you choose to adopt it? It has to be signed off. Signed off that we have the NIM system and that the city manager has your authority to adopt the plan. If you choose to adopt it tonight, it gets sent off. The state has actually already seen this. Again, this is bureaucracy actually working correctly. The state, CERC people, state emergency response people have done a great job. Max Kennedy in particular and Adriana Blank and the other person's name, Dan Albrecht, has been very proactive in making sure that the emergency managers and coordinators have the information that they need. They've already proved this, have come back with some suggestions and recommendations, and they've shown me that once you folks adopt it, it'll be adopted by the state as required. Are there any questions? Not about the plan. Did you forward the email to Chief Francis and get back to the Steve and Monique Toronto who wrote to him? Let's see. I have it here. As with regard to the F-35 crashes. Yeah, I'm sorry. I didn't hear all of that. You had a question about... Yeah, I was just checking to know if you had seen this email that was intended for you. About the F-35s and response. And the toxic fumes wondering the plan to react to that. This might be something that fits into that. It does and actually fits into the airport and VTANG's emergency plan. It's a military aircraft. The military aircraft crashes off base. The local jurisdiction is responsible for suppressing the fire initially. If Air Force assets get there, it becomes their scene for obvious reasons. There's nothing in that plane that isn't already at the airport. And I think that's something that people don't understand. There's composite materials. All of those materials are already in aircraft that lay in here every day. The F-16s had it. The aircraft does not cause me any great concern about extinguishing a fire. A fire is basically four things. It's called the fire tetrahedron. You take away one of those legs of the tetrahedron, the fire will go out. No smoke is good for you. Whether it's a house fire, cigarette smoke, or smoke from a burning F-35, none of that smoke is good for you. In fact, there's far more toxic smokes in a car fire than there is in the plane, believe it or not. Magnesium being one of the worst that's commonly found in your car. There's magnesium in your car, the wheels and the engine blocks and all of that have this material in it and a fair amount of it. That smoke is extremely toxic and you do not want to be in it. And that's why we're always yelling at people and encouraging people to stay out of smoke. It is not good for you. There are chemicals in it, known carcinogens that will cause you great harm and could be tetrogenic and mutinogenic. Tetrogenic meaning if you're a reproduction age and you get in your system, you'll pass it on to your offspring. What is the cigar okay once or twice a year? Not really. Got your answer, Tom. Yeah. Or the fire pit out back. Yeah. Yeah. It's, you know, and we've had that as a common complaint. We're coming into that season where we have people saying, you know, people burning branches out in the backyard and I can't breathe. Well, people have the right to fresh air. So stay out of smoke. And I don't mean to be glib. I'm not dismissed. I'm not being dismissive of the person's concern, but the fact of the matter is, is, you know, there's nothing in that aircraft that we can't handle. If there happens to be weapons on them, you know, you know, whether cannon shells or missiles or whatever is on that thing, that's an ordinance problem. We will be evacuating area because we don't want to be around in case it cooks off. And that would include moving all of you as well. So the answer to the person's question, should there and well, they want to know if the plant, if there's a plan that can be made public? There is a plan, absolutely. It has been made public in the past. The airport's emergency plan is well known. I don't know when the last time that Air National Guard released their emergency plan, but I know that they've had one for well over 50 years because ever since they had airplanes up here in like 1945, they've had, they've had an emergency plan and that includes off airport. So typically they'll respond within about a 15 mile radius of the airport. That historically has been the most challenging area for any type of aircraft, whether it be military, civilian, take off and landing. So usually when they run into problems. But you can't, you don't know if the Air Guards plan is public or not? I don't know. No, I reached out to Chief Bill Hartz from the Air National Guard Fire Department. He's in South Africa right now. I woke him up. And he didn't know off the top of his head either. He said he'd be checking into it. And he did extend that if anybody has any questions, you folks have any questions about it, please ask. We'd be happy to talk about it. What's the name of the gentleman who's in South Africa? Chief Bill Hartz. And he's the new chief of the fire department and for the Air National Guard. Okay, good. But the airport's emergency plan is public? It's online? It's probably on their web. I believe if it's not on their web, they certainly can get their hands on it to them very quickly. The operational people over there will share that with them. It's not my document to share. It's another different, frankly, it's a different jurisdiction just aside. Do they have to do one annually too? Yeah, I should know this but I've never been shown it. Yeah, they do. They review it every year. You know, we're very fortunate that the airport and the air guard are very diligent in watching for public safety at all. And talking about smoke, can you give us any updates on the belter farm? I can tell you that there is a person that we would like to speak with and that South Burlington Police have been given jurisdiction in the case by the Vermont State Police Fire and Arson Group. That's about as much as I can say about that. That's too good. Yeah, yeah. And incidentally, the air guard was the air guard. Fire Department was the first engine on scene. They're three minutes away as you know, they're literally over the hill. And once again with the belter farm, they saved two barns. I thought one burned to the ground. It was safe. Well, the pole barn burned to the ground but there were two others that were starting to burn when they showed up three minutes after the call. So they did exactly the right firefighting techniques that we would have used. They just happened to be three minutes closer. And that's why we use them as an asset to our citizens is because it's about getting help to the people quickly. And we have a great working relationship with them. And we utilize them a lot three to four times a week. So it's a great asset to us. It would cost us another $5 million to have what they have available to us on any given day. So the sun's over there, right? He is. So we need to approve this then. Are people And what is the what is it that you need from the council tonight? Because I have a signature page here, Terry. They need to say that they have reviewed it and that they're okay with the city manager putting a signature on it to indicate compliance with the state law. I move to authorize city manager Kevin Dorn to sign the local emergency management plan. Second. Any further discussion? All in favor signify by saying I. I. Questions? Those are my two. Great. Great. Sure. And again, we are very happy to discuss it. We understand people are quite concerned about it. We don't want them to be concerned about it. We, the fire service is very comfortable with what we need to do. And the Air Force has a great plan for that type of stuff. Regardless of whether people agree with the aircraft or not, we can keep the public safe. Okay. Thank you. Thanks. Okay. Moving on to item 16, March financials. Tom, they were quite complete. So you'll have a copy of the Terry of the narrative since we're at the end of the third quarter. So I'm not going to repeat the information that's in there, but happy to respond to any other questions you might have. Still in good shape, but I think it's going to be a tight budget here. No, I, it was very well done. Yeah. And happy to still entertain any questions that anyone might have as they go, as they go through it in more detail. I know you had a lot of reading material this week that was without the local emergency management plan. Okay. So great. Thank you. So item 17, consider convening as the self-browing to liquor control commission to prove a gazillion. And I couldn't access them all. I couldn't access them all either. Yeah. So ideally they would be in our, in our regular packet. It's the, there were three documents. I could not, one, four and five. I could not access two, three and six. I could one, four and five. Who sent that? I, you know, I opened some of them once and then I couldn't find them again. There's so many. They had to put them together as batches. I think Kevin, so there's so much data. Yeah. Yeah. And they're different files. Do you have them in your box, Kevin? I can't open my box for whatever the reason I can't get into it tonight. I get this error message. Yeah. That's exactly what I get for these. I get the error, but this is how they look that my agenda didn't come through like that. So that I can open. Do you have them Tom? It didn't open for me either. I only got two. Was this part of the weekly meeting warning list? That's weird. Was it on that? Because that's the only email I have from Celine. This was only posted a box. Yeah. Because of the size. Yes. Yeah. The size. Oh, and they, and I couldn't open all of them either. That's right. So I just thought maybe they're not, maybe I didn't need them because they had zero. That's why we didn't put the local emergency minute plan in the packet before because of the phone numbers. So right years past, you would email it separately. Yeah. But it should, that should have been put to your box and it wasn't. I can have something attached though. Every year we have this annual review of all of the licensees. And so, and they're all due by May 1st at the Department of Liquor Control. And Don is actually going to drive these down to my, well, actually you're going to my pillar, but yeah. Well, I, you know, as you recall, we pulled two out last time. And one, I couldn't open or find. And that was for Maplefields. The other was for the air base. Air base. And that just said resubmitted. So did they give you any additional information? I mean, for the air base, I think the question was, you know, they're, is it open to everybody? Yeah. Is it open to everyone? And is, are there two different bars there that? I think there's an officer's club and a non, and a, and a listed person's club. But this is just one, this was club. 35 or something like that. And which is that? So Andrew, I had Andrew look at it for the question that was asked about whether it was open to everyone. He said that is not, that is not something that the liquor control board can weigh in on. As a liquor control board, you can only approve or disapprove the permit based on what you're authorized to do. Yeah. The other one, Maplefields did have violations in the past. They've expired. So they're, they're checking the box that says they don't have any current violations was correct. And Donna's office checked on that one. Okay. That's what I assumed, and they credited your memory that you remember that, which was amazing. There is a statute of limitations that clears them. Good. And they're currently cleared. Oh, good. So they're not, haven't been speeding lately. That's great. Well, that comes with each slowing down and driving. All right. Well, what's your pleasure? We need a motion to whoever can, we have to go into it. I move that we enter the liquor control board. Second. All in favor. All right. Okay. You saw them all time. Yes, I did. But every single one carefully so I did. I didn't catch anything concerning, but if you have till May 1st, we already are expanding our meeting next Monday. I think you have to be approved by the state by May 1st. Yeah. I think Donna's literally driving these down tomorrow. I don't have any concerns, but I did not scrutinize these to a degree that I stand up in a court of law and say. We have either Ed Spooner or the chief of police signing off on the ones I see anyway. Yeah, they've all been inspected by and they bought by the by a member of the fire department and it's been signed off by the police. I'm comfortable with approving. Okay. I'll move to approve all of the liquor license presented. Second. Okay. There's no further discussion. All in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Motion to come out of I move that we come out of the liquor control board. Second. All in favor. Aye. Okay. Thank you. So now we want 18 other business, the event for the DPW and the domestic violence events for October. I'm happy to contact Carol or Tom. I know you've already had a conversation with it, but to see if she can move that lunch into that week of the appreciation week for DPW employees. That makes sense. Yeah, that would be nice. I'll check that with her and let's see if which would be the same week as the dinner for the council the week of May 20th. Okay. Okay. Great. I'll check on that. Thank you. Megan, I think you wanted me to list the other event on this is okay. Should I keep going? Sure. Should I pick up with B? Okay. Do we need to talk about the DPW at all? Do we do we have jobs to do? Yeah. What do we need to do? Yeah. So I think what she'll do is have her people through common roots. The caterers provide the meal. Nice. Yeah. And Wow. Are we going to pay for it? So that was a big question. Do we need to do some fundraising or is there a city budget for this? Well, in the past, we've all let me get a price from her and see what we'll see what we're looking at. It's about 30 people. I just think it's important. We do something. So I'm glad that if you want to run with this, let me know if you want my help and where I can do so. Thanks. I will get a I'll get a date and a quote on what it's going to cost. Okay. For all hopefully it'd be a nice weather. Caroline like the idea. I love where direction you're going in. But if we did five to seven before bikes and bites on a Thursday in July or August, and then they can just meander over there after we feed them up at Wheeler house. But whatever you're doing the week, that's great. I just want to do something. Yeah. I think we just felt that we'd get them all during the lunchtime event. And I think Corey Lee is going to work on with Holly and trying to get city employees up to the bike and bites to and have different things for that. But this will be just for those guys. And this way we'll we'll know that they'll all be a part of it. So we did pizza last fall for DPW. Yeah. Yeah. Over there. Over there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So this is great. So we'll find out what the cost is. I'll follow up with Carol give a date and a cost. And we can write a check for them. So B, the domestic violence of October. So Chief Burke sent an email to Lisa Bedinger copied me and Tom. This is when Kevin was out of town. And she's on board, but she was hoping that a subcommittee could perhaps think about, you know, how to do this. And so I said, I would bring it back to this body for help plan something. Right. And the idea was to have two separate events. One would be more educational combining it with the school. And I had a preliminary list of speakers on it. And Kevin had a friend who could talk about the perpetrators of domestic violence. I don't know. I might be hard to get that might be hard to get. Okay. Yeah, I can look into it. Okay. But I'll have to yeah, look into it. And then the second event would be more of those circles of healing that Lisa does so well with people who suffered due to domestic violence. So I'm willing to I know Tom has also worked with Lisa. So I don't mean to jump in there, but I'm willing to meet with Lisa and kind of go through the plans. I think Sean is as well. All right. Yeah. Sean Burke. Do you want another person? I'm happy to do that as well. Super. All right. Very nice. Yeah. Okay. So that's a nice subcommittee to counselors. Yeah, I think that would be it's a good number. Okay. Yeah. Any other business? All right. Well, I would entertain a motion for adjournment. All in favor. Thank you. Thank you all. And I'll see you here tomorrow at 10.