 Hello and welcome to episode 97 of the MarketMaker podcast and today we're going to talk about really two major things. We're recording this on Thursday so we've just had the release of the latest US CPI report so we will aim to deconstruct that a little bit, talk about the intraday reaction more importantly, perhaps talk about what it's going to do for Fed thinking and does it really make a great deal of difference we will discuss and then we're going to look at some single stock news and talk a little bit about Walt Disney and the reason why is we're going to use it as a bit of an example not only is it a super interesting story for that single stock but about this potential for the biggest proxy battle to take place in the US in years and what exactly does that mean so we'll look to explain. Pick things off though Pears, I know you're a man who likes his fryups, one of the things I was seeing a lot of meme activity in the twitter sphere, the fin tweet world, were eggs. Did you catch, are you feeling the pinch on your fryups these days in terms of like the cost of different English? I mean I did know yeah eggs were like top of the list weren't they in terms of food inflation, inflation just generally what was it like 50 odd percent or was it 50 percent yeah 49 percent in the past year they're kind of topping the table and I saw all these memes and yeah some pretty hilarious ones but I thought hang about what's going on with eggs here because one thing that I like is chicken and chicken has been going actually it's the other way around chicken prices have been going down, eggs are going up so there's a lot of trade opportunity here going and it all boils down to the type of the type of chickens you're talking about, egg laying hens or those who are meant for meat consumption and how they've differently reacted to basically bird flu so there you go. So hang on chicken laying eggs are more susceptible to the flu then is that right some millions of egg laying hens died last year, it was the deadliest outbreak of avian flu in US history for egg laying hens. Right, so then is that, is that a good, I mean you might not know but is that flu been global or has it kind of been limited to North America? Good question, well the rules over like this is where when it comes to chicken particularly in food as you know rules in the Eurozone compared to America are wildly different in terms of how they deal with food quality and things like that so I would have thought it's probably more broad further afield than North America but probably impacting on different degrees but yeah I just thought I'd point that out so next time you're at the Spurs game getting your full English pre- pre-match that you know you're just really enjoying that egg that you're paying for that so well I've got well it's more my you know healthy January obviously I've switched over to my Rocky Balboa diet oh yeah it's a bit of a reference for those who are a bit older anyone anyway Rockies you know Rocky 1 classic classic movie there's a new one right oh is that oh yeah Creed, Creed 3 I think it is yeah okay yeah it's just not the same is it but Rocky Balboa's diet was raw eggs of a morning that was yeah I think he had six raw eggs or something this part of his training okay but I've just got brought up the table yeah the biggest egg producer globally produces 40.1 million or sorry no has 40.1 million egg laying hens hmm wow that's insane but that's a US company called Cal Main Foods and then there's a Mexican company number two US company number three so yeah the top three are kind of North America and then you've got others like Thailand and Japanese companies coming in and yeah but it's actually out of the top 11, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 are US which I didn't know that's interesting yeah expensive things these eggs so I guess you know rather than India, China, places like that well I'm sure some of our listeners will be following the growing popular vegan, I better say this carefully, veganuary diet this is where you become vegan for the for the month of January okay yeah so perhaps egg demand is going to drop off this month which will help with that inflation. Any, any way following this excellent discussion we're having let's move on and let's talk CPI so we'll talk macro first and then we'll talk a little bit single stock and a couple of different ways I want to break this up because I think let's just kick off and talk about the data in itself and then let's talk about the way of which it impacts different types of market participants because I think for a lot of students when you're thinking about careers you know you might get absorbed into a lot of the intraday headlines but who and how are different participants reacting because it is very different so we'll have a look at that but kicking things off the overall CPI fell 0.1% from the prior month energy costs as you would imagine contributed largely to that I think oil was down about 16.6% the biggest decline since Feb 1990 for oil one of the other standouts was airfares they were down just over 3% biggest drop since August the headline measure year in year 6.5% was actually in line with expectations but does mark the lowest since October 2021 the core reading obviously getting a lot of focus recently that was up 0.3% from last month it was at 5.7% again further decline from prior it in fact the core reading the slowest pace is deck of 2021 as well so all of those things playing into the narrative as we have become somewhat accustomed to at the minute which was a cooling of inflationary conditions on a surface level at least but one of the things you often talk about on on these podcasts is about what happens under the bonnet and actually when you go on to say the BLS website and you start looking at the CPI report you realize that there's much more than these top-level figures so was there ones within there like shelter costs for example which is the biggest services component makes up a third of the overall CPI index is that the sort of thing that you look at as well as those top-level figures yeah this is it I mean it's always very hard we'll talk about how markets have behaved in the super short term like in the in the kind of three hours since the data has released and that kind of tells its own own story because we've had some wild market volatility of the back of these numbers but on the face of it as you suggested there the headline numbers are basically as they as expected so so when you're kind of certainly short-term you're kind of trying to benefit or trying to profit from market reactions this kind of stuff when the kind of all the information on a very very top level is as expected well then all right up does that mean markets won't react all right if the top lines as expected we're going to have to go down a level or another level or another level into the nitty-gritty to find stuff that that's out of line from expectation and right which of all these hundreds of different products that you know make up this inflation basket which ones are more important than others in terms of driving the inflationary trend and then right what's happened to them I I mean look can I just start on that top level yeah it's in line but I personally I think this is another significant step and another I'd say you know supporting kind of piece of evidence for those in the camp that expect inflation to continue to fall at a steady clip you know as we go through the first half of this year so six and a half percent on the headline that that is a drop from seven point one percent the prior month right so a naught point six percent decline we had a naught point six percent decline last time as well and look I what if you can look at the chart basically we've had one two three four five six months in a row of declines and the declines are accelerating right that the the the amount by which it's dropping is is increasing I don't know this is the low this is the lowest we've had since 2021 now so we've got like a two-year low well no that's not true apologies it's like a 15 month low okay on inflation so but the top's in and it's coming down and it's continuing to come down at a decent pace so I think that's good news and when you look at the when you look at the core inflation reading then it's a little bit more mixed but it's dropped off again yes the same as expected but my the significant point there is and I think I mentioned it last month the 5.7 reading or December core inflation year on year is the lowest reading again that we've had since the end of 2021 so your 15 month lows now it's importantly below the low that we had last summer okay so I think whilst it's all in line as expected generally speaking this is a real sort of positive signal for those in the camp that are expecting inflation to drop okay and I think you can see that with regards to the expectations of what the Fed reserve are going to do at their next meeting which is at the start of February because the probabilities now obviously what we've been expecting is that the Fed will continue to reduce the amount by which they're hiking so they hiked 0.75 percent four times last year and then in their final meeting in December they dropped to hiking just by 0.5 percent and now the next meeting since that December meeting which is the Fed one we're expecting now another decline to an increase of 0.25 percent the odds on that prior to today were 77 77 percent chance okay and we'll talk about more broadly markets in a minute but we've had a really good week we've had a pretty good start to the year actually stocks have been on the up and part of that our catalyst for driving them higher has been the increasing probability that the Fed will only hike by 0.25 percent in February so that's gone from 77 percent chance to an 88 percent chance after this inflation data so that that's one thing right so that that's that's plenty of evidence for those who are looking for inflation to drop okay that that it is doing so however now to entirely contradict all of that when you strip off the bonnet and look inside well then what's going on down there and I think on a month on month basis if you're looking just super short term how prices changed in December compared to November and as you're saying gasoline's the one right big big drop in petrol and gasoline prices so yeah energy and gasoline are the kind of big biggest falls we've had a pretty decent drop in used cars as well that was minus point sorry minus 2.5 percent okay month on month but if you're looking more on that year on year basis then yeah it's the shelter cost which is a really big portion of that services side of the basket which we've talked about a lot as being the final sort of piece of the inflation jigsaw that hasn't turned over yet that has stayed quite stubbornly high and so I think those that I guess this inflation reports classic you depending on your bias you're really happy and you can have opposite opinions and yet everyone's happy right I've already explained why there are those that are looking for inflation to drop why they're happy but then those that think inflation is going to stay stubbornly high they're also happy because of that shelter cost number so you've got this a bit of a mess and when you look at how markets have responded in the three hours since the data I mean if I just I mean maybe if I went to I'm just going to look at the NASDAQ chart and you would argue that the tech stocks are a little bit more most sensitive let's say to this sort of inflation related data and the initial reaction was a big sell-off and that's because of those shelter costs and because the numbers were in line and I guess your people are always maybe irrationally hoping for numbers inflation that's lower than expected but it wasn't lower than expected it was in line so you had this big sell-off and when I say big the NASDAQ dropped from it dropped from 11,530 down to 11,290 and this is a massive move and that took yeah it took about a one minute for that sell-off okay got that long then what happened it stopped the massive sell-off it turned and then it rallied all the way back to the high and set new highs for the day okay so it rallied from 11,290 all the way up to 11,580 and that's almost a 300 point reversal then it stopped going up that that rebound took about an hour no sorry 30 minutes so 30 minutes then it stopped going up do you know what it did then it sold off all the way back to the low over the course of the next one hour then it rallied back to the middle and we're still in the middle of the overall range so you've had wild swings in both directions really really huge moves because you've got different people looking at all of this the same data in very different ways and and I've only just explained it from the point of view of short-term what's going on and well on the headline it's good maybe you could argue but hang a lot about those shelter costs but you can then look at it from well who are the market participants and what's their different approach because you've got short-term what we call fast money hedge funds or you've got even more shorter term kind of you know high frequency algorithmic trading systems like on one end of the spectrum and then you got your kind of long-term value investors who are looking over a whatever three to five year horizon and I think there's a huge all of those short-termists they're all over this stuff right they're all trading trading trading but I think a lot of those more a lot of those more kind of longer term players they see the numbers yeah it's falling in line with expectation I'm sitting here you know I'm going to sit out of this carnage really short-term volatility they see that noise and it's settled bad it wouldn't surprise me if we finish today's session not far off where we were when we started despite this monster kind of roller coaster in between I think that initial knee jerk reaction so the immediate aftermath is somewhat as well exacerbated by the fact that this week overall the calendar is pretty quiet and it all capitulates in this one magic moment that drives this really frenetic price action but yeah absolutely right I guess I was on with a session with a with a group of students actually and one of the questions I posed to them was that if you were head of the Fed given what we know about their forward guidance and what the communication is at the moment which is still that there's further rate hikes to come have you changed your mind with what you've seen and that then from that market participants point of view you know ultimately once the dust settles on this intraday fast money reaction has it changed the game for fed thinking I mean you said what it's gone from 77 to 88 1% yeah so they were going to hike 25 guess what they're going to hike 25 yeah right yeah exactly um yeah I know but I'm a little bit conscious of the fact that our listeners think all we ever bang on about is inflation and I mean it is ultimately the number one game in town right and I think that is still the case I will just maybe touch on though I mentioned that it's been a good start to the year right so you know markets have had a good week and they've been kind of stepping quite a bit higher and and it's not just because of inflation so perhaps in the weeks ahead we can kind of steer our attention on to a couple of other things but one being China and China reopening I think that's really probably caught some by surprise just in terms of the speed of the reversing of this zero tolerance and it's like I think people a few weeks ago were expecting you know once it start happening once it started to happen it was like okay they're probably going to do it in phases but they haven't they just gone back let's just do the whole thing now and I think people are therefore expecting maybe that that well post lockdown you know consumption frenzy to be sooner than perhaps they were originally thinking if it happens I mean we'll see early signs are that the Chinese consumers still a little bit hesitant despite reopening to kind of properly get out there and confidently be at and about unspending but yeah so people are kind of starting to price in China coming back to grow faster and then just lower energy costs and that's one of the key things in this inflation report energy costs you know they are coming down and they're coming down a bit faster than maybe people had had expected and so I'm just looking the FT have got some great graphics actually they've got I don't know who's in charge of their graphics but they've they've upped their game here but when you're looking at energy costs like things like electricity costs for example then like in the UK I'm just trying to see so in kilowatt hours euros per kilowatt hour if you look at like the UK right so pre let's go back to like 2001 before the kind of kind of Russia Ukraine crisis kicked off and it was trading about 25 cents per kilowatt hour okay electricity and then spike to about top out about 62 cents that's in the UK right 62 cents a couple of months ago it's now back to just 40 cents so it's kind of it's it's we've dropped half of the spike so that's a big drop in the UK Italy and Germany lagging a little bit I'm in terms of that and then natural gas similarly in the UK it peaked at 25 euro cents per kilowatt hours and it's now dropped back to yeah I mean well like 17 cents or something so yeah anyway you know the energy costs are dropping and that's just going to only help and I think we like at the end of the year last year when markets kind of finished a bad year on a bad footing you know I think we've started this year with a couple of positives with China reopening faster maybe these energy costs aren't going to stay as high as we were worried about that all plays into helping with the inflation decline and maybe then the Fed are going to stop hiking sooner and it all kind of plays into that story and that's why we've had a pretty positive sentiment week in global markets your you in classic zoom fashion you've you've muted yourself or I can't hear you know I think that wasn't that the most the most commonly used phrase of covid you're on mute you're on mute there you go no I'm not momentarily perhaps but I said my my phone just buzzed while you were doing that last explanation and it popped up and it said uh Mike Wilson and I was like oh so the head US chief US equity strategist and biggest bear on the street could hear you talking the market up and he was like quick text and lock him down that's not going to happen we're not out the woods yet and I thought he's just sent me this piece and he says and this is talking about scenarios of course so not base case but he was banging in the drum this week about stocks could slump another 22 US stocks S&P from where we're at at the moment and he was talking about basically the rationale on the other side so we've talked about the inflation situation trying to reopening energy costs so on he was saying while investors are generally pessimistic about the outlook for the economic growth corporate profit estimates are still too high equity risk premium is at its lowest since the run up to 2008 so he's also talking I remember this to the podcast that he put out for Morgan Stanley this week he was talking about the idea of earning seasons just around the corner again yeah and at the beginning of the years when they start talking about this year how's this year going to pan out and that's not going to be particularly pretty for the majority yeah yeah any thoughts on that I know he's a uber bear but it's a good point on the corporate earnings I mean that really is a good point right because so basically they start pretty much well next week right and in earnest we'll get you know a steady flow of US well global you know big corporations reporting their performance for not only quarter four of 2022 but then you know completing the full year numbers for 2022 and then more interestingly yeah starting to put some starting to nail some 2023 forecasts to the mast and I think that uh human nature you would say that you know after a bad year you're going to be cautious I'm talking about like CFOs here whose job a tough job for a CFO right to put that outlook like right out there black and white to the world because the last thing you want to do is obviously you don't want to be you want to put out a big number and then spectacularly fail to get there because that's the worst case scenario right so they're going to be cautious and therefore I'd say you know they're going to be you know downplaying their prospects for 2023 which yeah might might play into the bear's hands and look multiples are still high if you think there's going to be a recession but some people don't think that that's why they think multiples aren't high so yeah different opinions yeah well we're only in what week two of the year so it's all to play for um but let's move on and let's talk a little bit about disney I'll give you the headline first and then perhaps I know you've got a couple of angles on this but the activist investor nelson pelts will try to force his way on the board of all disney after the company declined to nominate him as a director oh the joys of being being on a board it's setting the stage for one of the biggest haunted ft proxy fights in the us in the number of years but conscious of the fact that proxy fight as a term first yeah what exactly are we talking about in reference to that and then what is happening at disney because I know they've been in the news a lot the last six months or so yeah so well nelson pelts he's an investor uh a big one um he runs a kind of a big big fund and when you build up a significant stake in a company you know well then you own it right you own a big chunk of the company and you and therefore the the bigger the chunk you are in well then right the more you think you should have a say in how that company's run so this was elon not that long ago right yeah right 100 yeah with twitzer i mean he went obviously super aggressive because he can he's got the biggest checkbook in town and and because he's on so well so this well what tends to happen is if you build up a big enough ownership you want to say in how the company's run which typically comes via what we call a board seat because who did the people who run a business you know the ceo the c-suite let's say you know in a normal business well they're they're at the top calling the shots right so who do they answer to and they answer to well the shareholders but the problem is with these big public companies there's millions and millions and millions and millions of shareholders okay so you know you can't answer to millions and millions of people so the board is supposed to be representing the shareholders i.e. the owners of the company and so the board are supposed to be that body of people that are monitoring the c-suite report into so on it you normally have a board meeting once a month let's say on the c-suite or the ceo or the cfo or whoever it is depending on what's happening in the business is reporting right how have we got on you know not only backwards looking performance but right forwards looking in terms of not only forecast but strategy right and this is where the board have an influence on the future direction of the business and and they're you know they're they're keen to have their influence because they own it and they want to steer it in the direction they think is going to lead to the best growth and therefore the best return on investment okay there's a there's a really cool i think it's netflix is it uh i'm actually not sure what channel it's not disney we'll talk about busy in a minute but there's a great document well it's not doc it's a docudrama about uber it's called super pumped is the name of it i'm not sure if it's netflix but google it um i actually watched it on a flight i i kind of crammed um i binged uh most of the episodes on a flight to sydney anyway um the reason why i mention that is because this is a great uh dramatization of what i'm talking about where you have a board and you have the ceo you have a big standoff between the two if it gets to the point where they disagree on the direction of the business or they disagree maybe the board thinks actually you know what ceo and maybe in the case of uber so the ceo travis um calnick was um in the end the board thought well you're a maverick you're a bit like elon musk maybe in some ways in that you're a maverick creator and a great founder but when the company gets to a certain size and becomes a beast well then it's a whole different ballgame growing that and i think the board kind of in the end said look ceo you're a bit you're not fit for the next stage of our journey and in the end the board forced him out right so um this is a classic you know boardroom battle between the people running the company and those that are representing the owners which is the board now nelson pelts um has been building up a state in disney and by the way i don't know if you monitor disney stock particularly closely but um it's trading about 100 bucks right now it's just shy actually we've had a little bounce as global markets have gone up over the last week it's bounced off about 85 dollars which was the low it's gone up to just shy of 100 okay but the high that we had in 2021 for disney was at 190 yeah i remember that period that was when the passing streaming new subscribers and netflix was taking a bit of a hit at the time wasn't it there was a transition of power it seemed yeah there was playing out exactly so it hit 190 at its best so it's still traded even though we've had a good week still trading let's just call it rounded up half with like 50 percent of its high okay um so you're obviously getting investors coming and sniffing a bag people who hadn't been buying that stock because that that low we had last over the last sort of few weeks is the lowest the stock has traded since the summer of 2014 so we're at like an eight and a half year low on the stock um so you're getting some new big investors coming in because obviously disney has some phenomenal assets um obviously you know on the streaming side they've got the franchises of the likes of star wars and marvel for example which are their kind of super super assets and you know that's why people often in that kind of streaming battle against netflix and amazon prime and an apple tv and the rest of them they a lot of people will point to disney and say well they've got an ace card because you know they're they're kind of their star wars and marvel back catalog and and you know future spin-offs is just an engine that we'll just keep on giving yeah well i actually watched um star wars i think it's just the last the last skywalker like i'm not quite an old one but one of the new series yeah like they are squeezing that franchise dry like i watched it and my wife and kids were away so i thought it's a good time to sneak in a little star wars you know as you do and the misses is out and i watched it and i thought this is rubbish this is genuinely this is like the last in the saga the last guy i was like pumps i was like this is terrible if i paid for that in the cinema i would have been disgruntled well i watched it in the cinema i watched uh well in the last year the so the new solo it's the new hand okay yeah how was that story that would i have to say that was better than a lot of the spin-offs which as you say have been underwhelming in my my view but it was better than that but yeah you know it's it's hard to stand up against you know the originals um but look anyway they got that in the locker all right and it's a money-making machine and that's why some would argue that disney had got a bit of an advantage um but so you got these new investors you know new kids coming in buying up the stock it's 50% discounted off the 2021 highs blah blah blah nelson pelts comes in starts building up a big position okay he's famous um well for a number of sort of activist moves against other companies over the years all right perhaps the most famous was in 2020 when he built up um a big position i think like a 100 million dollar position in proctor and gamble um and became an activist investor which means they actively seek a board seat they actively seek to change the company's strategy because they believe it's heading in the wrong direction and they're buying buying stock at what they believe is a discounted value only on the basis that they can change its direction where they think then there's a lot of upside and future potential in terms of returns okay so he did this quite well successfully i'll not i don't know some i don't know some would say not that successfully with proctor and gamble but that's kind of where he's famous um so anyway yeah you've got this this activist investor coming in the reason why this is in the headlines this week is because he's he's just been refused a board seat okay um so this new activist investor Nelson pelts his request for a seat and the board's been rebuked um and so he sent a letter to the board um mapping out why he thinks the company is going in the wrong direction um and what they need to do about it um and some of the stuff that he's talking about um he's saying that a lot of that a lot of disney's problems are self-inflicted one of the key things he's not happy about is is is this guy who's come back to be CEO um Bob Iger okay so step aside from the activist story there's been a well a bit of a CEO saga at disney over the last couple of years bob Iger ran the company for a couple of decades and really brought it you know from just being that I guess what you might perceive as mickey mouse slash theme parks stock so now being this global modern player fighting in these digital streaming wars and so on he's credited with that kind of evolving the company to become you know to get it fit for purpose for the 21st century and he was seen as doing that very successfully and his strategy as he kind of got into the role after a decade or so growth strategy was all about acquisition okay and so the point about the back catalog and stuff it kind of culminated in his big deal in 2019 when he bought 20th century fox off rupert murdoch okay and part of that deal was fox television and their movie studio and with that came avatar which is obviously now so he bought that in 2019 so now you're getting the big avatar you know roll out okay they own stuff like the simpsons as well on the fox tv side but the point about that deal was they paid 71.3 billion and the point about it is they had to use 42 billion of debt because there was a bidding war comcast came in they wanted to buy it as well and it got bit up bit up bit up and they disney ended up taking on a lot more debt to get the deal done than they were hoping 42 billion now um this new activist investor nelson pelts believes that was the the end of a sort of era of misspending by iga um and now it's you know they've got too much debt but anyway iga then kind of retired he hit 70 this is like in 2020 he kind of stepped back that was his last big deal that's by 20th century fox and right that's kind of my my big job done and i'll step back and i'll let the new guys come in and he set in place a succession plan a guy called bob chapek who was one of his kind of understudies and and bob chapek stepped up to become ceo and bob iga moved into a consultancy role where chapek was supposed to be you know utilizing his experience and tapping into his experience and opinions and ideas you know as an advisor bob iga was earning two million dollars a month for that gig i always think that like in that situation or when bezos handed over to jesse you can imagine given that bezos is apparently quite psychotic he's just watching you tapping at the keyboard what happened so chapek came in and basically iga's phone stopped ringing so he stopped asking for his advice and iga's like what's going on what's going on and then chapek made a massive faux pas he kind of got involved with a political spat with de santos the florida senator and it was all about lgbq related there was something like a school's policy i can't even remember what it was about now but the quite right wing de santos has set in place this new policy for schools around how you describe bisexual people for example and they were trying to define the terminology that was acceptable and which wasn't okay and the left side kind of kicked up massive store what the hell's going on you can't control this this is you know and so they kicked up this political store right and disney said nothing and disney are quite famous from back in the 90s being quite proactive about their you know lgbq community and all the rest of it and so they and so then the disney staff were going well disney why aren't you saying you know why isn't our leadership coming out you know ante this policy and so chapek was like okay fine i'll get involved and started getting involved and then it turned into this spat on twitter with de santos and de santos just destroyed him and so chapek lost a lot of credibility and obviously from a pr point of view but disney was a disaster so bob iga said look he's not asking for my advice anymore clearly he's not up for the job bored let's get him out bring me back you know i'm bored i'm sat on the beach i've got nothing to do return of the jedi very good very good um so that's the long-winded story and iga is back so pelts is now like well hang on a minute disney's got too much debt and iga the kind of dealmaker extraordinaire is back and so pelts is going to the board don't let iga start eyeing up some new massive acquisitions don't let him go back to his old ways of just big acquisitions to drive growth we've got too much debt and we need to kind of turn things around and so he's saying that basically um the cost of the services and the products has risen by two thirds over the last couple of years that's the cost of producing these kind of star wars spinoffs and so on operating margins have been massively hit them they're actually they've halved compared to pre-covid free cash flows down 90 percent they used to be a very consistent dividend pair that's disappeared and and so pelts is going oi bored get me on get me a seat we're heading in the wrong direction iga's going to drive this thing into the ground it's time to change so we'll see it's a battle that's just begun and maybe that's so can they make a movie out of the situation yeah that's just a new one for for disney's uh catalog um dramatizing their own uh board you know v c-suite sagas um but yeah you should watch super pumped super pumped okay yeah it's really good about the uber story yeah i just i just finished watching um the monster on wall street uh yeah bernie made off did you remember that period so when you were trading when it all the wills came off was literally a month or two because obviously the trigger that exposed ponzi was the collapse in financial markets on the back of lemons right going down do you remember that too much when you were trading at that point or is it so just wrapped up with the banking situation that was he was just a part of that wrapped in i know he became like the poster of that because it personified the greed and excess of what banking was perceived as yeah he the media pinned that whole saga you know they nailed him to the state and they to the cross and like yeah made him the kind of um that that kind of flag bearer for everything that was excess and bad that led to the collapse of of the world um so yeah the media are all over it but you know then again it was a ponzi scene and you know that's not to justify made off and what he did but um but yeah i mean definitely bernie made off was a massive story wasn't it how many years did he get 150 that's right it was massive wasn't it they made a real example of him um didn't he did he die in did he die in prison or is he yeah he did yeah so one one of the things was um i didn't know was that he actually had a legitimate business and when that started it was the transition of when he embraced technology and he was taking the pink sheets so penny stocks and and putting it into a computerized format so that obviously to speed through everything and he made absolute killing so he was like he was a at the forefront of that shift and apparently they had huge market share in the market making space in a sense of capacity or the dominated that initial uh screen shift that happened at the time it's quite interesting i mean this is it i guess some bit another whilst you were explaining that like he had a legitimate business and then it grew and then it kind of got a bit out of control and he didn't know it kind of reminded me of a much more recent example of that was um elizabeth holmes um and the uh thoranos um story with her blood testing company well i mean look she i i mean so she's just been has she been convicted yet well she's been kind guilty but she hasn't been um no she's thought sentenced i think i she did how many years i i can't remember um anyway yeah i mean that's the whole thing about like probably starting out with the best intentions of creating this business and then the momentum of it just becomes something you can't control anymore and so you're out there selling and you're doing your sales pitch and in the end you you you you sell the story so many times that you start believing it right the story though is something about a product that you haven't developed yet but you're kind of speaking in a way that you have and then you're kind of raising millions and millions and millions of funding um but then of course finally it transpires that the product's not there and it's all a lie um the house of cards comes collapsing back then um yeah it's made for some uh some good documentaries absolutely all right well look we'll wrap it up there for this week i know you're hitting the road yeah soon is it tonight tomorrow tomorrow morning i've got a 4 30 am taxi okay nice looking forward to that yeah well enjoy and uh yeah have a have a great weekend everyone and we'll be back as normal next week one thing that i have been working out is potentially a new midweek series that i'll be putting out soon where i'm going to be trying to talk to a lot of the hiring and careers teams at a number of our financial institution partners to try and get top tips and advice for the application processes for all of these different banks across different roles in finance so um if you check back through some of our previous episodes you'll find there has been some we've done before with career insights from people from industry and also career hacks that we've done as well so you can always go back through the catalog to see those but that series is coming so make sure you subscribe to the channel and put on that bell icon notification you'll get an alert when those new episodes go out but with that thanks very much peers and uh safe travels and i'll see you next week yeah catch you later