 So good morning everyone. I very much appreciate your presence here on the day on the morning after the night before and The competition is very stiff. There is wonderful sun. There is beer. There is Firepong and then there's me so Thank you so much While all the lovely people are setting up Very good. Thank you so much It's the social technical evolution that we're going to talk about and why and why am I doing that? Well, I'm an associate professor at the University of Delft So this is my work But I'm also that the blacksmith a hacker and just somebody who hangs out on emf camp is having a good time So let's just dive straight into it and start thinking about this fairly weird topic of evolution and technology in society so it all started of course late 19th century and Charles Darwin, you all know him basically said well, let Live very multiply led the weakest strongest live and the weakest die and the interesting thing about this is that Darwin had absolutely no idea about genes Had no about no idea about informational nature of evolution. It was really just basically Darwin sort of running around and looking at pigeons Right and pigeons are pretty awesome. They can cover entire citizen crap. That's Better than most people can So that's that's interesting. So how does one even go from studying pigeons to thinking about the evolution of society and the evolution of These large-scale social technical systems of which we are part of So let's just kind of unpack that a little bit and have a bit of a discussion And if you have any questions, feel free to just raise hands and don't throw things at least Let me know you're throwing things are conduct So let's make it fairly interactive, okay So the first thing that I want to point out when we talk about evolution. It's really an algorithm Right, and it's another algorithmic process of replication variation and selection and it's not the answer to the How did we get here? It is the answer to the how did we get here not to the why are we here question and Some of the things that sort of the creation is the fundamentalist really get wrong is that they think well it's the reason why we here and Then they get all upset because it's supposed to be this bearded guy that makes things happen but actually it's not you know if if God was there and it was really Doing all of this this will be the way to do it because it's it's about an algorithm a program You start and then just lean back and do nothing. It's gonna watch it happen Right, so it's a process is the mechanism by which we are here not the reason why we here or the direction to which we're going so Once we understand this evolutionary this algorithm Let's just kind of unpack it a bit more to just lay the groundwork so we can talk about it now Evolution is not telelogical. It's not goal-oriented. It doesn't have a grand purpose if it had there would be the shark biroctopus Right because a shark biroctopus is absolutely awesome, and I wish I had one as a pet But it's not there and why it's not there because it's evolution is a local optimizer It's it's a process an algorithm that serves the serves a problem that an organism or species or thing is facing right now Actually it is the problem. It's solving the problem. The thing was facing your parents were facing Right, so I'm trying to survive here I tried to make more babies because that's what evolution is all about and what is the best I can do with my biological Makeup given the current conditions of temperature pressure predation whatever Right, so the other thing to realize is that every living thing Is as advanced as every other living thing right people think oh humans are the most advanced race Well spiders are pretty awesome too and so are bacteria because they've been around much longer and a far more fine-tuned And far more evolved far more algorithmed out if you wish then we are so it's all on the same frontier of this algorithm Right, so there's no better. There is just more or less suited right so when when Discovery Channel talks about the ultimate predator the white shark That's not so ultimate if you take a white shark put in the Sahara desert. It will be dead in three minutes So not so awesome. Then are you right likewise if you were the I don't know the Big lion the the ultimate predator of the African desert stick it into five kilometers water It's not very optimal is it right so it's evolution is about right here right now. What works? okay The other thing about this out this algorithm is that it is intractable any computer scientist Mathematicians in the room. There you go. So, you know about intractability right and about Non-MP completeness and that's this is the ultimate non-MP complete algorithm Why well because it's the things doing things to other things react into things that have done before and that might be Doing in the future and all of this interacting soup and that's what makes it really really difficult Let me just show you just how badly intractable it really is so here is here is us this morning at zero yeah, and The point a is now are you going to listen to this lecture or not? Maybe you're bored. Maybe you think I was too petitioned. So you decide to leave right now But let's say you decide to stay which I think is awesome. Now at this time outside the tent is the love of your life Right, but you did not going to you're not going to make to meet them because you are here So I'm sorry for that But that means that this entire tree sort of for you to the left of a is not going to happen That future isn't is not possible. You will not create the next time baby Einstein You will it will not go on to save the world. You will be in this tent stuck with me Getting baked in the sun. However the person next to you Okay, you get it right so every time something happens an infinite number of other things cannot happen And then yet another infinite number of things might happen because of the constant interactions right here right now and it is this exploding space of possibilities as Things interact with each other that makes it so difficult to think about evolution Because it's always things reacting to other things in evolving adapting and changing over time Now just to give you some numbers because numbers are fun There's this just chaps at Princeton that has done the math here and they said well Let's imagine this uber computer right that has Every electron in the universe and there's 10 to the power of 79 of those that's a lot of electrons And each of them has a computational power of today's fastest computer So that's 10 to the power of 12 instructions per second and they run for the entire age of the universe Right that's 10 to the power of 108 computations, which is that number below. Yeah, oh, sorry, and then if you imagine the evolutionary algorithm running For of hundred things interacting over 100 time steps the number of possible permutations and pathways that that evolutionary process could have Is that number below? Yeah, that took a while and there are exactly 100 and 99 zeros there So you cannot compute Predict so that's the thing with evolution You have to just go through this process and in order to understand where it's going You have to understand its past and you cannot exactly predict now in order to experience that Little bit. I would like to propose that we play a little game Oh Now we got to do stuff So what I would like you to do is to stand up and come here in front and stand in a circle Can you do that? Lovely, so just one big circle, please And if it gets too busy then then don't come because then be going to so don't trip because you will be playing a game called Attacker defender now because of the computer mess up. I don't have my slides on screen So I'm apologies. So what I want you to do now, are you good? Okay, just come on fill up here fill up here as well Don't be shy We will play this game called the attacker defender game. Yeah We'll do this slowly quietly. It's too hard to run around what you will do is you will pick out two people Please just look around and just pick two persons any two persons Not all the same cute guy or girl, but whatever. Yeah now the first person you picked is The defender like a big shield, right? So I hope you picked a big person The other one is the bad guy or girl. That's the attacker So make sense. Okay, so defender and the attacker now you are the target Yeah, so what I want you to do now and please do it safely and slowly Move around so that you keep the defender between you and the attacker Can you do that? Go easy easy easy. Don't run. Don't run Or if you're running, please make sure you are carrying scissors Okay, stop it's hammer time now Now we will change the rules The defender is now the target Okay, defender is now the target You are the defender Move so that you keep yourself between the attacker and the target Okay, the defender is now the target You are the defender Move so that you keep yourself between the attacker and the target go Okay, you're absolutely awesome. Thank you so very much applause for yourself Please go back. Thank you so very much. So what happened? What was this anyone? What was the first state we had? Yes, there was a hand in the back. Please Exactly right. So when the first set of rules makes You interact in ways that you spread out. Yeah When I change the rules Just interaction change and suddenly you're coalesced into this group and you physically cannot be inside each other So you have to kind of bump around. Yeah, now if I had the video, I would show you a simulation Which I cannot now, but just just think about it. Do you know whose attacker you were? Do you know whose defender you were? No, what happens if you move and you are somebody's defender? Then the attacker has to follow you, right? So every single motion by every one of you Instantaneously affects absolutely everybody else without you even realizing it because only thing you're doing is you're keeping track of the two People and trying to stay a line there, but every motion of everybody because we're in this big network moves all of us Right, so that's kind of the interactability of the systems is everyone move motion everyone Change affects everybody else without you realizing it and that means that these evolving systems Because of such properties and now we do not have any learning and adaptation and normally you have all of that as well Makes it impossible to predict and this is thanks to Perry Bible Fellowship it fell off the The Link to them a wonderful cartoon. This is exactly what they're trying to depict. So this brings me to No, I'm gonna skip this. I'm sorry This brings me to this notion of a coupled fitness landscape Okay, so this is a concept from evolutionary theory that says well as any Every entity acts interacts moves and changes It constantly deforms the fitness landscape of all the others. So let's say that I am a gazelle Fairly choppy hairy gazelle, but fair enough and then there's lions Yeah, and what's my goal in life is to eat grass and make baby gazelles What's your goal in life? Why is to eat the eat gazelles like me and make more lions? That's what evolution is about. So it means that if I learn how to run faster You go hungry. I don't get to have any babies, but I get to have I get to live and have babies So as my fitness increases I become more fit-adaptable your fitness decreases Now then maybe you say well as a bunch of lions Let's figure out how to cooperate and corner this really fat and hairy gazelle that can take really sharp turns and run Really hard as you learn how to cooperate my fitness goes down because now in breakfast and not making the babies your fitness goes up so we have these coupled landscapes of who's doing well who is doing poorly and Of course while the lions and gazelles are fighting the grass is doing its own thing and being more or less eaten That makes sense. Yeah, it's just kind of what happened in the game, right? So you're as you're moving you're exposing your Your target which then it's the fitness decrease. They're more vulnerable They have to adapt the change that does moving the whole system around now That's the essence of these fitness landscapes, and this is what drives the interactability evolution because you're interacting across these spaces now How does evolution work? Well because of this algorithm of transferring information across and it starts In layers it starts in what we call meat, right? So it's DNA in organisms Yeah, now the thing with DNA. It's a quaternary based digital information. So it's here TAG the four Amino acids and they form they're basically universal to all living things and There is this so, you know, it's an analog fitness function So am I fitting off to reproduce how many kids they have the more I have the more chance of them being better and the physical environment and other Things around me affect how good I'm doing and the result is digital, right? So yes, baby is no babies Now as the as we go through this evolutionary dance affecting each other Evolving slowly we find strategies how to deal with things now the human strategy For dealing with life universe and everything else is to develop an intelligence and to become generalists Right. We're not particularly good at anything like having big claws are running really far. We are however creating culture because we can tell stories to each other and then We create the system network of minds Language meaning through which information now can flow Now if I was a buffalo the only way to teach You something was to have a baby together Right, and that only works if you're female because well otherwise no babies Yeah, so that restricts the amount of information Boss that can be transferred and it's vertical it goes across time However in culture because we have this shared space and we all know who this chap is and I don't even have to explain it to you Right, we can have a horizontal information transfer within a very limited amount of time between the same sexes with that There's no need for sexual reproduction. We could just talk to each other And you know like we could have a conversation about Michael Jackson. I assume nobody met Michael Jackson, right? I've never met anybody. No, you will never meet him again, right? Unfortunately, yet we could spend there today talking about it. That's kind of weird, right? How come that we can have this access to this shared information space without actual physical experience? That's what cultures are all about about enabling us to do stuff together Now what makes it even more interesting is that what is fit what is adjusted? What is what is good in culture is reflexive? It's we decide What is okay? Right Buffalo don't get to decide that it's not okay for Lyons to eat them And that they just have they have no choice Communities can decide what are appropriate rules of behavior and what means to be successful or not So it's reflexive feedback process And as I said it goes both horizontal in time So within five minutes and it can be stored and replicated over time So that's interesting, but of course that whole cultural thing is embedded in meat, right? I'm a meat-based organism. I walk around. I sweat I have blood all of those things Now on top of that being at the technology festival. There is the technological layer now There are people who argue that teams as units of technological evolution are a thing and If that's true, then what you're looking at is a smartphone holding his private parts Right so basically people argue that this technology using us to make more of itself So we're the sexual reproduction productive organs of technology, right? So I mean I am I'm currently using here Let's do some commercials the latest one plus three telephone because I think it's awesome my wife has Previous version because she doesn't care Right, so I'm actually actively reproducing the opal three because now I'm also advertising it as well So because of that there might be more sales because there's more sales There might be next version and it becomes an old system of application variation of selection on top of culture on top of meat and These layers going back and forth is what gives you interactions, so let me just go back a couple of slides and show you this one Right, so the layers of emergence here as we talk about it all starts of course with elementary particles right stuff doing stuff to other stuff and at that level you end up with things like atoms Lots of interaction a structure appears Now put lots of atoms together and suddenly we start calling this thing chemistry It's still just atomic sub-atomic particles interacting creating patterns now more chemistry interacting We get these structures called biological cells now put lots of cells together Interacting in various ways you start getting organisms start putting lots of organisms interacting together you get Dutch football fans It's an unfortunate result of evolution, but yet there is so These layers of embeddedness is what drives the evolution of the systems, okay? Now as we go through time and space as this nested Interactors of meat culture technology Adapting and changing and learning experiencing the external environment. We go through the cycles That Hauling has identified through these four phases when you let's say imagine there is a freshly plowed field Right, there's nothing there just soil what happens slowly is the what's so-called exploration? Life emerges there seeds in the ground. There's energy coming in and Pioneer plants come up right. It's the the brambles the the how you call them the prickly things Please help me the nasty stuff that gets you all ready if you pick nettles. Thank you Yes, nettles nettles are exactly the kinds of plants that just colonize they create structure There's literally physical structure there that captures the energy as it captures the energy information is being processed more nettles are being made This energy starts getting conserved. You start getting brushes you start Shrubs you slowly start getting trees that capture even more energy and they calcify and ossify becomes strong and static Think about societies right you started Mad Max world slowly. There's organization. There's structure suddenly Catholic Church and Governments and organizations and Brexit and stuff. So systems are all organized tight Now what happens when systems get over organized and over static? They cannot resist external change and they break This is your forest fire that suddenly releases The energy that stored in these systems that and have to re-adapt to reorganize and the cycle starts again Now keep in mind all of this is biogeochemical socio-technical right so that's things planet earth People technology all wrapped up in one adapting a learning and changing now all of these things Happen at short scales, but also the very long skills, right societies rise and fall Collapse reorganize and grow again To give you an example here's some nestedness in time and population. So you can see the fads over there Right, so you need little internet memes. You'll have things like values that slowly adapt and change as they're selected in or out We you know we used to think it was a great idea to have women not to vote Well, thankfully we decided that's a bad idea. We don't do that anymore society changes and adapts as a result of that We will hopefully learn that maybe racism is a bad thing to have and we will want one day drop it as a Society and of course because you're dealing with six billion people over long periods of time these things take time So you see the traditions in the decades and the billions of people Right and again, this is all nested within the biological time scale, which is even slower I mean if you think about it that we left Africa some 40 to 100,000 years ago That's about 2,000 generations ago your average bacterium does that in two days Right, so in biological terms we just left Africa. It was like yesterday So in many ways biologically we're very ancient yet our culture is much much faster so that gives rise to these a Lot of societal problems because you have this nestedness and what's called pace layering or shearing layers That Stuart Brandt talks about this on the bottom line you have bottom layer. There is nature, you know rocks Biology that very slowly changes it takes at a very different clock On top of it there's culture right Catholic Church Favorite thing to bash has been around for more than 2,000 years and Has no plans of leaving any time soon So it's a big organization so the societal structure that very slowly adapt on top of it There's governance. How do we get organized the nation states come and go? But as they're so on top of that you have your infrastructure So that our cables our roads our IT networks of that stuff Commerce quick exchanges on top of it and the things like fashion and fads on top of it now as these things are moving and changing They're literally dragging on the lower layer see what's happening now with let's say the file sharing and The slowly changing legal regimes that are constantly trying to limit it While at the same time we are venting better and better ways to share files more and more anonymously because we think it's a Cool thing to do so that's slowly dragging on to on to the technology Slowly dragging on the infrastructure. It will eventually slowly drag on the Catholic Church as well And Pope has a Torah exit note That's that's how we know we want but that'll take a while an example that you can use to think is like a house So that's the other image you have a site so the physical layer is there You have your infrastructure of the house the walls that are fairly static You don't change it very quickly But things like the services in the house the space plan you can fairly easily model and you can move the furniture any day if You want. Yeah Again, remember these things are embedded Biogeotechnical systems. There's technology within culture within biology Now why evolution and why socio-technical what starts happening here is that on one side? You have the physical world, right? And us being physical biological entities are profoundly physical So let's say a proposition is literally a something you food put in front Proposition so you you we even think in terms of physical interactions of physical spaces So the physical world makes us think allows us to think and as we think and create and Our thoughts coalesce into technology that has been selected and evolved we modify the physical world All right as you build large scale infrastructures you make a dam You fundamentally alter topology of a space which then of course changes how people can or cannot live there For example, which then changes how they think and feel about things like dams, which then changes how the next down will be built Right. So these things co-evolved they adapt each other slowly surely, but that does happen Now an example for is look at US cities versus European cities, right? It is have evolved the grown around the dominant transport technology so if you are working the office is a small medieval city all the streets are meant for Cards horse carts or push carts and horses narrow twisting alleys US cities were developed at times of trains and trucks and They are meant for driving and they work really well if you're driving if you walk in the US that doesn't work They're very well, right? I mentioned copyright laws and and and Technology to allow file sharing these things have been co-evolving very rapidly the last decade. You can really see it happening Technology also allows some of the evolutionary processes to be jumped over. So if you look at that's a mobile banking in Africa It's a huge thing Because of the development issues they had the physical infrastructure for say copper for telephones is not in place However, it's the straight went to mobile phones and they do absolutely everything with the mobile phones And in many ways Europe is lagging in terms of mobile services compared to stuff. That's daily practice in Africa So suddenly that has caught on it's changing how they do things, which is they're going to feedback and technology They're building so they will never build probably a copper wire network because why would you? Yeah now so what starts happening as within this evolving system Various kinds of selection pressures get put on Because it's an evolving system. It responds to pressures on the outside now To extremes on one side. We have consistent and strong selection pressure, which is capitalist system, right? So you either make money or you go hungry Kind of in extreme. So what that means that the euro fitness landscape is very peaky There are a couple of really good optimal places to be at if your Facebook you're doing pretty awesome if you Google you're doing well if you're a big power Power company or steel mill you're high up the fitness peak and that's great However, going from one fitness peak to another fitness peak So being good at one thing becoming good at something else means going through the valley of death of Learning how to climb the other peak so rearranging your reorganizing yourself a very few firms that are operating on the very severe Short-term economic pressure can ever do that one famous example that kind of work was Nokia You know what Nokia used to make hundred years ago? Anyone tires a rubber boots there while there were if you had Nokia you were you were fitted because you had boots up to there Right, and they managed to reorganize and become a telecom company that then did not Was not able to make the next move to smartphones and now is bought up a chewed up and spit out Microsoft Okay, so that's interesting now if you if you see what happens under this strong economic pressure You know people are trying to invent yet a better Facebook Because if you have to make money you're very limited in what you can do The other extreme in terms of social economic and socio-technical fitness landscape is what's going on here Most of us can handle economic pressure fairly well But you have to be fairly wealthy to be here You have to be able to afford a ticket you have to be able to afford to travel here You have to be able to afford not to work to eat so you can just play around But for those that have won in that game you're experiencing inconsistent and weak selection pressure Right because I can stand here give a lecture then I can go maybe play with the blacksmiths a little bit Then maybe I'll go watch firepong Be a generalist learn a little bit of this little bit of that and I can be fairly okay ish at things But I'm okay. He said many many many many different things and the valley is between the peaks are very shallow Does that make sense right? So you were able to serve this landscape as a hacker and be able to combine different things and explore things because you're experiencing a different Kind of environment then let's say a firm that has this very severe strong selection pressure Which means that we are behaving in different ways because of that That makes sense Now so what is that we as a hacker community are really kind of doing this thing? Well, the first thing is that you know selection while we drive adoption and preservation of technology So both ways look at awesome retro Right because of continuous efforts you can play an arcade game that has been around for 30 40 years in some cases So suddenly that meme that or the team that technological meme is there look at all the efforts to Bring back emulators right there and there's a service now you can send a file off to the website that will convert it into put into Atari and give your Send you back the song as an MP3 Right, so it's keeping it alive. It's making things around that would not be around otherwise We're also messing with the fitness landscape Right if you are working in crypto for example And you're creating good cryptography for journalists suddenly what a journalist could not get away with because of state control now Can't get away because you're actively modifying and increasing the survival rates So we're actively messing with what's fit what's unfit. We are punishing the anonymous goes out punishes companies that don't like or they go after Scientology for example because they're selling lies and they actively attack them and expose them and do things So they're changing what's okay. What's not okay? And the question is how how directed and aware are we of these things that we do the other thing is about of course replication Think about open source and one of the wonderful things about it is that so extremely allows knowledge transfer And that's why it's such a radical idea because the replication is actively encouraged Things like responsible disclosure you're just throwing things out there making sure other people know what's going on Allow them to replicate what you're doing things like mods game mods or whatever all these events are all about replication interaction and then variation There is this notion that innovation is all about the adjacent possible Right, so Pokemon everybody knows about the game the Pokemon go right. How is that thing possible? Well, there is this technology that has allows us to have a screen There's a battery technology that has lots of power in a small package. Oh, we have this GPS thing Oh, we have cameras await But if I combine these three four or five things suddenly something new appears and now I have traffic jams because people slam brakes because the Pikachu is on the road Right, which then of course means that is going to be banned soon because it's causing trouble So you get all of these interacting waves does that make sense and You know just innovating recombining. You know, there was previous talk, right? Was about having mud lob having raspberry pi having all these existing things and clever Recombinations create new things which then can be brought on and if you look at it look at it. It is exactly what biology is doing Right, so biologists often say that evolution is more and more variation on less and less teams That's every vertebrate everything that has a spine has the same design head forward-facing eyes for limbs Now whether you're a giraffe or a mouse, you're basically the same just kind of stretched out in different interesting directions adapted different environments And if you look at things like the eye and the creationist love to talk about irreducible complexity Well, if you look at the eye, you find out that all the bits of the eye have been reused somewhere else in the body to do Other things but have been recombined interesting ways to give new functions, which then allows suddenly yet more things to happen Now and what I would like to leave you with is this notion from Daniel Dennett One of the greatest thinkers alive I feel who said that now for the first time in its billions of years of history Our planet is protected by far-seeing sentinels able to anticipate danger from a distant future Commit on collision course or global warming and device schemes for doing something about it The planet has finally grown its own nervous system Us and I do challenge you to think about this statement later on and to think about what is your role in the evolving adaptive nervous system on the planet that we all are And with that, I thank you very much and I leave you with a kitten a complex evil is my Twitter handle Okay, do we have any questions so Hang on a second as long as you're gonna hear me Hi, can you hear me? Yes, okay What's about the bio hacking? How does this affect evolution? That's a that's a that's a wonderful question It depends who you talk to so it is very difficult to be objective about these things But let me say the two extreme things you have sort of the hardcore greenpeace stands that says it is evil period Anything that GMO is bad and should disappear Okay, I mean there are there are reasons why you want to might want to think that on the other side people say well Planet Earth is one big biological mess, right? I mean the notion of species is a very leaky notion and Bacteria gene bacterial genomes can be found in human DNA and it's all sort of one big orgy of information transfer so in many ways I Would say well bio hackers are just Serving that way even just doing what nature does anyway Just doing it more purposefully and with more sort of more playfulness Maybe because you can do things that nature normally wouldn't make because they're ineffective or mice don't have to glow green so It is really just exploring to me. It's really exploring that adjacent possible. Can I make you weird combinations? And personally, I'm you know if done right. I don't see problems with GMO If done, right, that's a big if right There are lots of reasons why you don't want to do things like Monsanto is doing but that's more about control and pesticide use and food security rather than GMOs So I don't know if that answers your question a bit, but Yeah Thank you for really fascinating talk although I disagree with you on many things like Dennett and your explanation of the success of Pokemon I think Pokemon is a success is due to the meme to the Pokemon Not to the technology because people have done this kind of stuff for ten years and longer and have not seen that success a question when you when you talked about the Like like you have a kind of like Darwinism and social Darwinism approach isn't it that The pressure or the reproduction if you if you measure everything in reproduction it gets a bit murky because for example in your in your Slide when you work at Facebook, you are at a fitness peak potentially But then you work so much that you don't have any time for biological reproduction You might reproduce memes or things like that So this reproduction if you only look at Darwin it gets complicated on the different levels Okay, thank you for that question. So first about Pokemon my comment was the about the adjacent possible So it's the technologies that make something possible not about the success and I fully agree that it's we had games like that for long time I mean ingress if they're an ingress players, you know about it. It's been around So that's one point the other thing about So this social Darwinism as an as an idea has been very much vilified. Oh, it's going to be about eugenics It's going to be about the perfect human all of that nonsense. It's not about that to me the usefulness of thinking in terms of evolutionary pressures is to help you understand the patterns and the structures It's not about designing right. You don't have the ability to design these things But when you try to understand the world around you as a thing that's responding and reacting and adapting to particular pressures Some of which are bigger than individual, right? That that's a useful way to think about because then you can understand how things are moving now coming back to the Facebook example. I Totally buy a comment on if you're only working and not reproducing. Well, maybe you should be making more babies rather than more Facebook The my comment on Facebook being on the top of the fitness peak is about if you think about in economic terms as an interaction space of firms at the bigger scale so things that are Organisms economic organisms there they can only survive By finding the most highest peak on the landscape that makes the most money That's why most firms are the Ruthless because they have they have to quote unquote You can argue that it's humans that have a choice But what happens in this game, for example, we played Because you locked in the system you lose ability to control it I mean you could have left out of the game But as long as you're playing you play by the rules and you stuck you you locked by the rules So firms often don't have the space to move because they will die if they leave If they stop fine, if they stop trying to find So that was really the essence of my comment is that they're they're driven by everybody else to try to extract maximum value on society Otherwise they fail and you have to be very Enlightened people to be able to say well, let's suffer losses for a while to find something. That's that's a slightly more acceptable Does it make sense? Thank you Any more questions Well, then I do thank you very very much for being here. It's it's lovely that you spend time in the hot tent while there's beer outside Feel free to talk to me later I have open access courses open coursework courses on this stuff much more extensive if you're interested So please talk to me about that. Thank you very much