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Yeah, very well thank you. First of all, thanks for coming on the show to tell your story. I know it's not easy. This is a very deep and personal story. You've just released a book talking about being gang raped, setting fire, involved in shootouts, a lot of stuff and we are speaking out. A lot of people get inspiration from your story to then hopefully come forward and speak out about their own pain and misery. First and foremost, how are you? Yeah, good. It was just like it's since the books come out, it's been non-stop. There's been a lot of things to do, a lot of interviews and yeah, it's been kind of different emotions. So yeah, I'm just excited, I guess, to see where it will go. Were you nervous about writing a book? Yeah, I was nervous about writing it because well, it was like two-sided because part of me I'm like quite passionate about like women being hidden victims in gangs and things like that. So I did want to get my story out there to like promote that these things do happen. But then on the other side, you're exposing yourself to the world and exposing like the innermost thoughts of your life in a book and that's obviously really scary. I always go back to the start of my guests. Where did you grow up and how it all began? I grew up in an estate in London, typical inner city London estate. It was like it was very back in them days. It was like a very community feel. The estates, everyone had their doors open. Summer time was great. I had a normal childhood. We was just playing on the blocks, like shooting water guns at police, just being children and just having fun. And yeah, I came from, I had a parent. My mother is Cypriot. I'm Cypriot. And yeah, that's where it all started. Good life though. Yeah, like as I said, like my childhood was really, really nice, really good childhood. All my friends was in it. We all lived together. We all lived down the road from each other on the same block. So I saw my friends every day and yeah, it was just a normal typical childhood, just going to school, coming back and playing out in the park. Who were you at school? I was, I was quite intelligent at school, but I was like almost a class clown a little bit. So in primary school, I was always just making jokes. I was a bit troublesome, but my grades were always really good. And I would say, because we were all, I was kind of hanging around with the naughty kids at that time. So yeah, we were all kind of causing trouble in school, but not anything major. And we were just jokers, like laughing and joking all the time. What about your dad? Yeah, so that was my mum had a partner. So my dad, I don't know my dad. So yeah. How much do you think that plays an effect on you as a kid? I always wanted, I think I craved like having a like a male around me for protection. So when I started like in my early teens, I always felt like I needed someone to protect me. I wasn't, I don't know what I was scared of, but I felt like I needed a man to protect me. So yeah, it may have been down to the fact that I didn't have like a male around me that I felt could keep me safe. What ease did you start getting into trouble? Well, I started selling weed when I was, well, I had just turned 13. So I met a man when I was 12. And he was, he was 19, but I had told him I was 15, but I was actually 12. And I like very visibly looked 12. And he used to, like I used to leave school, sign in school, leave school, change my clothes, go and meet him and drive around in his car. And we would sell weed and he would pay me. And I remember like he gave me my first £50 note when I was 12 and I was like, oh my God, this is amazing. Because I didn't, I'd never had no money. We didn't, I came from quite a poor background. So to have my first £50 note was amazing. And I remember like I didn't even spend it. I literally just put it in my room and just kept it there. And I always used to take it out and look at it because I'd never had that much money before. And I'd never seen him £50 note before. But I didn't get arrested until a few years after that. I think I was 14 when I first got arrested. When you were 12, though, you were having sex, you weren't, of course, so basically he was wanted to wait until my 16th birthday, which would have actually been my 13th birthday. So at that time, on my 13th birthday, he was really pressurising me to have sex. I remember I was in his house and it was like, I don't know why I've got such a vivid memory of Jeremy Carr was on the TV. And he I would say forced me to have sex with him. I didn't want to do it and I was telling him no, get off me. But he carried on for not very long. It was only about maybe 40 seconds or something. But after that, he would continuously pressurise me to have sex, which I didn't do. And luckily, a few months later, he went to prison. So I didn't actually have to deal with that for much longer. So that was a relief for me. And I really felt disgusting afterwards. I remember I went home and it was my literally my 13th birthday. And my mum had made a cake and like it was all very innocent at home, like all my presence was wrapped up and my mum was like, oh, let's go get a Chinese, like as a special occasion. And I remember like sitting in the bath and crying and being like, what the hell happened? And yeah, it was horrible. Like, yeah, it was not a nice experience at all. I don't think I didn't I don't class that as a rape for some reason, though, which is really weird. Why do you think that is? I feel like I don't know, like in my head, it was consensual, even though it wasn't. And I think that might have just been programmed into me. I'm not too sure why I feel like that. Did your mum ever know what you were doing at that 12 and 13? No, so no one ever knew what I was doing. I was still I was like trying to live two lives. So I was at that time, I'd gone to I'd gotten into a grammar school. And the grammar school was like very high performing grammar school, very high pressured environment to like achieve. And where I was coming from, my school was outside of my area, so I didn't have any friends in school. So it was hard to juggle like still being from my estate, but then being with these girls in school, and I was starting to get quite bullied at school. So my mum was aware of the bullying and she was aware that my grades were slipping. But she wasn't aware that I was skipping school like three or four days a week to go and sell weed with these gang members. So once your first boyfriend went to prison, what did you do after that? So he went to prison and I started hanging around with his friends. And they were still selling weed. They were quite heavily involved in armed robberies, but I didn't get involved with any of that. And I actually stopped selling weed because I didn't want to do it for them. So I wasn't doing it for a little while, but whilst I was with them, there was a lot of violence that I experienced. So the one time where I was told that I needed to tie a girl on a bench and set her on fire, which was done. And everyone ran off and I remember like I couldn't, I felt so guilty I had to ring the ambulance. Like I didn't really care if I got arrested or anything, I just rang the ambulance anyway. Like he cut off a boy's fingers in front of me. There was a couple of stabbings that I witnessed. And this was all obviously at a very young age. I was only about 14 or 15. So yeah, it was becoming quite intense and hard to hide that life from what was going on at home as well. How much does that play a massive part in your main today that seeing people getting set and fired and stabbed and do you still think about it or do you try and block it out? I don't think about it at all. I've been diagnosed with complex PTSD. And one of the symptoms is that you have no emotions and like towards all of those things, I have no emotion. I can't, I feel nothing, which is like also quite scary that I feel nothing for these things. And like I can see even as I was growing up there was loads of violence that we witnessed and it didn't, I didn't feel like it affected me at all, even though it probably did. So you stopped saying we'd seen you that all that violence was happening? Was it a turn on as well? Because your father figure wasn't there, the jewellty cup to these people as men? And you just respected them in a way even though you know it was fucked up? I did respect them at a time, but I was more fearful of them. I didn't like, bear in mind this gang was not from my area. They was another gang from another area. These were not my people. So like even though I respected them it was more out of fear than out of love. What happened with the gang in your area? I found out you're going to vote with another gang with that of Martin? At that time, no, because I was so young and I wasn't involved with anything with the people from my area. They were hardly a gang themselves at that time either. They were just young boys running around the streets. So it wasn't that deep. How many beatings did you have? From that particular era of my life, none. As I got older and started like going country, I was beating up a few times, but nothing like too major. But all of this culminated in the fact that when I left this life, I went and ended up being in a long-term relationship that was very violent. So I don't know if that's got something to do with everything that I went through. How old was he? The partner that was quite violent to me. He was 35. How old were you? 25. Was there a lot of violence in every one of your relationships? No. The relationship with my baby's father was not violent and my relationship currently is not violent. What was it like before you were pregnant? What was your life like? By that time, I was in care. So I didn't really have anyone to look out for me. I was advocating for myself. Whilst I was in care, I was just super wild. I didn't care about anyone. I didn't care about myself. I was getting arrested every other day for just stupid stuff. Then having, getting pregnant calmed me down a lot. Whilst I was pregnant, I wasn't doing anything crazy. I was just sitting at home being a housewife and cleaning and cooking and expecting my child. What was it like going into care? It was hard. I was in and out of care my whole life because there were issues with my mum. So I was used to it. I'd go into care for a little while, come back out, go into care. So going into care wasn't too much of a big issue for me. And I preferred care at that time because I didn't have to put up a pretense at home. I could just be whoever I was at home. How much do you regret that as well with your mum putting off all that shit? Yeah, I feel awful obviously. She dealt with a lot and it's not her fault. And now we have an amazing relationship like she's an amazing mum. And looking back now, I respect her so much for even putting up with everything I was putting her through and still just trying to be there for me as much as she could. What age was it when you were getting raped? 15. So still very young? Yeah. How was that experience? How did that happen? It happened that I was, I ended up in a flat with four men and they tied me up. They like poured alcohol on me, lit me, beat me up. They broke some ribs and obviously all of four of them raped me. They videoed it as well. It was like a horrific event but at the time I didn't really feel anything. The only time I felt something or even showed emotion was one of the boys picked me up off the floor and took me into the bathroom and he sat me down. He had me across his lap like a baby and he started wiping my face for me, wiping my tears and trying to push my hair back and stuff. He was saying, I'm sorry, I didn't mean it to go this far. And that, like I broke, I didn't even break down. I just started crying because I almost felt a bit bad for him because I was like, he really didn't want to do this. He didn't, he doesn't even want to be here. He looked like almost, he looked sick with what he had done. Anyway, eventually they let me out and I was on the street covered in blood with my knickers on and a coat and I called the police but unfortunately the boys were not prosecuted. Yeah, you can't feel sorry for him because he still got choices at the end of the day. At the end of the day, he's a fucking rapist. That's true. You can't have emotion towards somebody who's trying to wipe your face because they had choices. He could have stopped it. He could have phoned the coppers. He could have said no. It's interesting because I had this conversation the other day and people were saying it might have been a case where he was almost a victim as well. Even though we can't excuse rapists, it might have been that he was scared of the actual, the person that was orchestrating all of this as well to the point where he went and done something that was so against his morals but I'll never know. What about the corpus? Why did no one get charges? Well, initially I lied to the police and said I didn't know who it was because I was terrified and then one of these rape specialist officers came to me and she was like, look, I know you're lying. She was like, we know that you know who they are. So I gave her a full account, gave names, addressed everything and obviously for me that was quite a big thing because although it's not, you're not a snitch to say anything about rape, that's kind of how I felt inside. So I still felt quite bad doing it. The boys got arrested and remanded but when it went to the CPS they were saying that I was an unreliable witness and all four boys had put in a statement to say that I was, they were using me as like a prostitute, like I was a known escort and this is something I did but what I don't understand is that surely if you're 15 it's statutory rape regardless. So I was a bit confused as to why it never went to court but yeah, they were let out. Who was that for you? I just felt let down and it just reinforced in my head that the police just are not going to help me, the police can't help me, don't go to them for no help, they're not going to support you and you really are on your own and then at that point that's when that whole thing of like I need someone around me that can protect me, that's what I was looking for at that time. Yeah it's sad man, 15 years old but to go through that torment and sort of pain and to you even actually feeling sorry for one of the fucking guys who abused you, just shows you how much your emotions can be fucked up and tormented with where you don't know where the fuck you're coming are going and it's sad for especially somebody so young. So after those four was a river of threat that obviously you're anonymous today, we've got pixelated your face so nobody can see you but when you're going through that and you get out was ever a worry that it would come and try and kill you for sticking them in? Um there was discussions in the flat on that day so they let me out onto the balcony for like a period of time while they were discussing what they were going to do with me but the window was open a little bit so I could hear and they were saying ah we're just going to have to kill her because it's gone too far we've tortured her, we've kidnapped her and now we've raped her, we may as well just kill her, like there's no point and then one of the boys was saying no no no she's not going to snitch, she's not going to say anything. So yeah going back to that I was constantly thinking like oh my god they're going to kill me and um they were like a rival gang of my area so there was always that threat of like could this turn into something bigger? I wasn't really sure where it would go um I definitely was scared I actually saw one of the boys when I was nine months pregnant on the street and I just like I saw him and we looked at each other and we looked eyes and I just ran I just started running like I dropped my bag and everything I was out I was on my way to college and I just started running up the road nine months pregnant it was really horrible. When they were in jail on demand like did people know what they'd done? Yeah so people knew um and I was encouraging people to not do anything at that time I was like look just let karma get them let the police deal with it because I really thought that they would just go gel and my friends were saying no no no like we can't let this slide like they're rapist this is absolutely wild we have to do something um and then at the same time I was getting like threatened by people from their area so I was getting a lot of in them times it was MSN I was getting like MSN messages like we're going to kill you we know where you live etc etc. How is it known that men can treat people like that? Like how damaging is that for then for you to have a trust? Yeah I've been asked this question before like people were like did you trust men after that? I did if anything I put too much trust in other men afterwards because I wanted safety I wanted to feel protected so I almost went the other way and put too much trust into people. How is that when you're looking for safety though but then that safety is destroyed where people are using your vulnerability to their own advantage? I don't know it didn't really like I didn't see any of that at the time so I couldn't really I can't really talk on it because at the time all I wanted was someone bigger and badder than them to be around me and I didn't care what that person did to me I just didn't want that to happen again to me. What you're thinking then when you're in that house and they're saying they're going to kill you you're thinking fuck it or are you just willing to accept or are you trying to escape? So I was outside at this point by myself so technically I could have just walked away I don't know what on earth was keeping me like stuck on that balcony but I couldn't move and I was looking at I remember it so clearly like I was looking up at the sky and I started praying I was like please god like please just let me live let me just survive this and I'll be good like I promised like I almost felt like it was some karma for what I had done and I was just praying praying praying and then that's when they let me back in the house and we're like oh we're all going to get um we're going to book a cab for you to go back to your own area. Was a taxi driver not suspicious? Probably I've no idea like I've literally got no idea at all. Was there no DNA enough in that you could have tried and convicted them? Was it too late? There was there was DNA because well I went to like one of those sexual health places that the police send you to and they did all the swabs and in my mouth and all the DNA and there was like um there was a video of it they had taken a video of it with like them throwing up their own gang science asking me to throw up their gang science so I don't understand like I still to this day don't understand how they didn't get convicted for that. Where did you get the strength to stack them in? I think it was police pressure to be honest they were just on me like I kept having interviews and at this time I was doing like my mock GCSEs there was so much other things going on um and the police were just she she kept saying to me we know you know we know you know you may as well just tell us because we know you know so I was just like I was just tired and I just said okay cool I'm going to tell you thinking they will protect me obviously not. How does that meet you towards the system? I just felt really like I said I just felt mistrust for the police anyway so that just added extra mistrust into my brain about the police. I no longer respected them I no longer respected what they did for a job um and I didn't know at that time I was I was too young I didn't really understand that it was the CPS that does the convictions and not the police so now looking back it's almost like the CPS need to change their procedures not necessarily the police even though the police have work to do as well but the CPS the threshold is too high for rape cases like not enough rape cases get charged to this day. So after that experience did your life spiral or did you think still such a young kids still got a lot of grown up today were you thinking I'm going to try and get away from this life or did it just get worse from there? No it didn't actually get worse from there I mean at well it did but not at that point so at that point I met my son's father and he was like a good man at the time he didn't treat me any type of way um I moved in with him and obviously got pregnant super quick and he was just taking care of me like making me eat like he was like oh you need to eat a lot of iron and just making sure I was alright and running me bars and like this was a new experience for me like a man had never treated me like this before so this was great like I was happy and I was happy that I was having a baby and I thought that this was going to be the end of my like this would be it I'm going to be married to this man and that's it and obviously that's not how it went um I had my child and everything was perfect like I loved being a mum I'm still super maternal today like that's I love kids and I was just so happy with my new son I was just besotted with him and but at that stage my relationship with him was going downhill because he was also so young so um I got a count I got given my council flat and that's when it started to go a bit left so on dogs um not straight away no um at first I was just getting money renting out my kitchen so like people a boy that I knew asked to rent out my kitchen for 300 or 400 pound a time and he would come he would send me westfield he'd be like go westfield with your son you know go do whatever you want to do I used to come home my flat was spotless was like okay cool I knew something illegal was going on in the kitchen but I didn't know that he was cooking crack in there until maybe a few months after that yeah but is that what age were you then still 17 18 I was 18 then yeah yes you're still a kid how old are these people still they was that particular boy was 22 I believe still kids you're just thinking that age you just want a name now try and divide for your kid not realizing the destruction it causes even the kid that they're cooking crack that looking at it is fucking wrong but again at that age he's probably thinking he's giving you a name and and helping you along to be yeah I literally like looking back now I'm horrified that I let that happen with my child in the house but as you said I was so naive and I didn't realize he was cooking crack literally until afterwards and when I found out I was we had an argument about it but he was like look at the end of the day you're getting this much money for a couple hours of me using your kitchen you may as well just let me use it so I was like okay fine and by that stage I'd given out I'd made five copies of my keys and they'd gone out to like five people from my estate and that was that after that how did when did it go pear shipped and I was starting to be in a relationship with a man from my area who was a little bit older than me and he was just on the streets like he was just doing whatever he was doing and one day he was like oh I'm gonna go do a robbery like you know I know someone that's got some some drugs like we're gonna go rob them so I was like okay cool I'll see you when you get back and he went and done that anyway nothing really happened he was like yeah everything went really well like we got what we wanted and I think it was a few days after that we were all in my house and people were chilling in the kitchen and some like masked men came in my house and started shooting up the place shot up my flat with everyone in there and obviously me and my son in there as well what you think in the end like you've been through fucking gang rapes people try to set you in fire like in and out of homes to then having your son your pride enjoy like your baby in it and to then people fucking having shootouts in your house like is that just normal other than actually think right there's something not right here in my life no that wasn't like that just was the beginning of the end like that that moment just ruined everything for me so obviously after that I lost my son lost custody of my son over that of course whilst it was going on I just I took my we was lying on bed watching art and the iPad we was watching Pingu and I when the shooting started I just put him under my bed and I was like let's play hide and seek let's go under the bed and I was just covering his ears and just waiting for it to become quiet and he didn't even cry like I don't know if he was just in shock himself he did he couldn't process it he was such a young baby he didn't cry or anything and then I waited until it was quiet but I waited for like a long time after it was quiet and then I came out and yeah it was just bullet holes was just riddled all over my house and I was like oh my god and for some reason I started cleaning I started cleaning like manically cleaning because obviously they'd been in my kitchen making cooking drugs so and I knew the police was going to be on their way so I started cleaning my kitchen like bleaching everything because I was like the worst situation could occur now is that obviously they're going to take my son plus I get arrested for some sort of drug dealing like that's not what I wanted um and of course gone police came and I got arrested and yeah they put my son in care who was that for you the most horrific thing that's ever happened to me in my life so like even everything that I've done everything that I've seen nothing compares to losing my son like he is and he's everything I've only I've only ever cared about him I've only ever loved him so horrific horrific did anybody get shot no um everything no they were fine everyone got out they jumped out the window fucking hell man that yeah that's an experience like how old is your son now um he is 11 did you ever get him back no and is that still playing your heart over the day so i'm currently um like going to court i've been going to court for quite a few years now to get custody back of him but um he's proven a little bit challenging and it's like that's one thing I just can't get over it just hurts me so like in my heart like I don't try I don't think about it because if I do think about it I just break I'll cry like I'll break down this it's it's too much for me to handle do you understand why it happened of course 100 and like I take full responsibility for what happened and you know I hope one day when I can explain to my son what happened and how it happened um he may have some level of understanding or I hope he has some level of understanding around that situation have you ever had any communication with him um a little bit of communication via letters but that's it yeah that's fucking sad like let's let every woman like parents worst nightmares to lose their kids especially if listen parents love kids all the time some become addicts some pass away in circumstances but when you're still here and still young and that's the end of the day you were groomed you've been groomed for fucking many many years where people have used you abused you and put you to the side where you thought it was normal in the kitchen people cooking up crack people shooting guns like parrots they've been fucking normal like and it's only till you realise and get older you realise how fucking messed up that you are there every majority people are that there's not many people see the world differently some people just go well I've just accepted that my son's been took away but hopefully one day you can sort that out what's the sort of challenges that are placed in front of you because of your previous no that's not even a challenge at all it's actually just more the fact that um it's been many many years since my son has seen me and um I can't be sure that he even remembers who I am and that's obviously heartbreaking from mum but he's safe he's sound and he's 100% yeah he's 100% safe he's 100% live in a great life and yeah I just yeah he's happy yeah and you've never had any more kids no no is that one of the reasons why for a long time there was just no suitable man I just didn't want to have a baby with any of these men I've had that relationship with that man in that gang or whatever you want to call it for quite a long period of time and then after that I went straight into a relationship with that very violent partner that was telling you about and that neither of those situations were right to bring a child into and this was after you lost your son yeah when did you get beaten with 20 people pardon did you get beat up with 20 people setting fire when was that no so that was when I'd I'd done that to someone so that was before the shooting before that was even before the rape so I was about 14 when that happened and they just viciously beat up this girl and told me and another girl if we don't tie her down and set her on fire then we're going to get beaten up that's the one at the park bench yeah yeah yeah that's fucked up man like yeah they've you ever seen anybody about like PTSD and obviously you have if you've been diagnosed but have you ever seen like counsellors or therapists too so from about 15 yeah so after the rape situation I was referred obviously to CAMHS and was in CAMHS till I was 18 it didn't do anything for me the counsellor literally said you're going to be incapable of loving anyone you're very you're just an angry teenager they diagnosed me with ADHD which I don't have so that was just yeah that was not it didn't go how it was meant to go basically and then after that in my like later life I didn't have time to do all of that because there was so much going on and then about a year ago I referred myself back to like psychotherapy team or whatever and then that's when I got diagnosed with complex PTSD what about drinking drugs never I don't I I've only recently started having like a one drink but I'm one of those people I'll drink like half half a cup of covossiae and coke and I'll be drunk like tipsy because I've never drunk anything in my life and I've never taken any drugs why was that I've seen the effects in front of my face and I just I never wanted to be that person and the thing with the drinking I have like a very big phobia of being sick and also I don't like feeling out of control so the feet that whole concept of being drunk and not knowing who I'm with and who's around me and not knowing how I'm getting home I don't want to do any of that I want to know everything and I want to be safe and sober so it's like only now in my adult life I feel comfortable I feel trust like I trust the people around me that I've started like having not drinking but like when I go out I might have a one drink now so after you lost your son like and you then you enter an abusive relationship um so so so after I lost my son I was I started I was already in a relationship with the man that I eventually went on to go to sell drugs within the countryside count the lanes yeah county lines country um he wasn't he wasn't violent um there was a few occasions where like there was physical altercations or like I remember one time he locked me in the house to stop me going carnival but other than that there was nothing really that serious that I see this though yeah I know I downplay it all the time and this is not good like we need to empower people that this is not normal but where you've been through these things for so long and that relationship is so controlling it does become normalized to you why do you think you'd accept that I was just I was just looking for love like I just felt like I was just empty like I'd lost my son I didn't have anything I felt like I didn't have anything and this man at the time was providing paying for my flat paying buying me cars paid for my driving lessons was giving me money was giving me some sort of like we had a relationship like we'd go on dates he'd take me out he'd take me to the spa he'll take me all these places so I felt like this is okay like this is okay for me I can put up with the other stuff would you have would you have killed for a man if I told you to no but I would have gone in prison for a man at that time it's mad on it yeah so stupid because you're not it's not as if you're naive you're not but when you're being groomed and you're just looking for that father figure and want something to love you then you're willing to accept any bullshit that they say to you sitting in the room you're not going to the carnival or stay in there no come out you'll get food when I say that that's mass manipulation to the fucking extreme that's mental torture not just physical and there's a star young kid that it's scary to think that how silver it can go and how bad that people can actually just accept that life like I say it's not just showing it it works both ways mirror and female that there's plenty of good men out there and there's plenty of good women out there and there's plenty of fuckers out there as well where you just couldn't go near them with a bad pull that but when did you start waking up to it realizing that my life's a fucking mess here that there was a certain point in your life when you had some realization I don't know it's so hard to tell obviously I left my area when I was 23 or 24 I can't remember why did you leave there I got arrested for the millionth time and in country and the judge just basically said look this is your last chance like I'm going to give you a community sentence but this is your last chance and I just said to myself do you know what I can't you can't do this no more you can't do this you cannot do this forever now is your only opportunity to make a difference and I had a really good probation officer as well like she was a big inspiration to me like she showed me that this is not normal and there's a different life out there you don't have to although you're you feel like you're good at selling drugs there's this is not what you should be doing and I left and eventually yeah I went to uni and started my new life I guess you would say see me you're doing the county lines what were you saying smack um crack and heroin yeah and how much money were you making a day uh the line was about £3300 a day average but how much were you getting from that um so at first I would get £100 no I was getting a thousand pound a week um that was before I started buying into the box myself and then obviously all the profits were mine you cut that up yourself yeah how many phones did you have we just won yeah it's mad at to think what were you doing with your your money were you were you just enjoying life yeah bending on shape yeah fast money comes and that's fast money goes that's literally it like we was just doing up harrods and mayfair and restaurants and spars and just ridiculous stuff and designer handbags and things and I came I came away with it with a small amount of savings but not much yeah it's crazy to think listen I used to sell gear on that back in the day and you don't give a fuck about human beings when you actually see somebody's mother or father or son or daughter coming to you for drugs only thing you can think about they're going to get me a they're going to get me a Rolex they're going to get me you don't have a fuck about killing the soul man and that's when I started getting old and started making changes like my conscience came to the forefront and I thought wow how much has come back and you be like to do that like to be using people for a materialistic shirt that doesn't really mean fuck all that that's the hard thing for me anyway when I was trying to make changes but when you go through that period and you see people buying gear that you've not got you don't have a fuck about them it was like the pregnant women that used to come and be like please like can I have two on two and we it just makes you cringe because it's just like oh god like you know and you'll try to say to them no come on you're pregnant like let's not do this and they will be on the floor begging you and it's just like this is not normal like yeah we did used to treat them like animals it was horrible like horrible the way but the whole like motto was that if we don't sell it to them someone else will that was like always drummed into my head and you're just made to feel like it's normal but it's true it's just for materialistic stuff that don't even mean nothing and you're probably either going to lose or give to someone or whatever anyway so how many times do you think you got a jewel did I what how many of times do you think you got the jewel what what do you mean like go no how many times did you get a jeweled oh never no before I know you never get sent away but how many charges allan do you think you've had um there's been a few like close calls I think really the only time that it would have potentially happened was when I was arrested for um conspiracy because supply yeah conspiracy conspiracy with intense supply class A but that's just because I was that's what we were doing so I was just quite concerned that the evidence would mount up and they would be able to charge us with that but they they didn't manage to why do you think you're another scientific person maybe white privilege to be honest with you it might have been that because every time I stood up in court it was me and then one two or three black mouths and for some reason they were always seeing me as little victim in this situation and I was getting community orders and them not was getting custodial sentences I don't know what it was because I was doing the same thing as them how hard is it when you start making changes to gradually try and move on from the past because you've been involved in some mad shit like you've been a victim but you've also created victims as well that that's a hard thing like you say that as well you have been a victim but you've also done wrong as well but you can accept it because everything you've went through where you think fuck me that because it turns us into animals evil that because what we go through it's not that word I believe everybody's getting the cinnamon some degree obviously some people make disagree with that but some people get turned into these characters that eventually become like how hard is that for you as you're getting older and realizing that it's an absolute fucked up mess like is that the understanding take responsibility for the things you were involved in as well yeah 100% and like I made it very clear in my book that I take responsibility for everything this was my doing and yeah of course I knew what I was doing at the time I'm not stupid I wasn't you know drunk I wasn't drugged to do these things I was in my right mind however I think in hindsight I can see and especially when I wrote the book and it's on paper I can see all the red flags leading up to what then happened so and to be honest the breaking point for me was losing my son because I literally had nothing to live for I just didn't care about anything anymore I didn't care about myself I just did not care and that led me to do things that I would never normally do but at the same time I've always like I hold myself in quite high regard that I'm a kind person I've got a good heart and I do regret the things that have led to you know people suffering you ever saw a say though never no but that's a good thing no yeah to not want to quite give up just enough's enough yeah because part of you probably had your son in the back here maybe you've always wanted to fight for him could have been that yeah no one's ever said that to me for maybe it is that but no I've never wanted to no I've always just known I've got like a bigger purpose here and I need to as you said get my son back and when did you go to uni um I went to uni in 2017 so not that long ago so when did you really start making the changes on your own life to get away from the madness what age were you 2016 I was about I can't remember was 23 or 24 um but I moved areas like completely like across the other side of London um and started to try and make a change however the that world is a small world and obviously when I got to my other area I've reached out to people in that area that I know um because I didn't know the area I wanted someone to show me around let me know what's going on who to talk to who not to talk to who to avoid and the boy was basically like he knew me anyway and he was like listen I'm going to give you a car I'm going to buy you a car like run my phone make yourself some money so I was like okay cool and it's like literally it was just that easy like every even when I was doing all of these things people were like DMing me saying oh come and work for me instead I'll offer you more money than what so and so is paying you um but then shortly after that literally like a week after that and I started doing that in my new area um I met this man and he basically said to me if you continue selling jugs for these people I will never chat to you like me and you can't be anything um and he said he made me give the people back their car and their phone line and then that was that was just with him after that how long you with him I was with him for about four or five years it was a whole shit show with him as well even though you stopped doing the bad stuff like what was happening that relationship he was a drug dealer himself anyway um so more controlling basically yeah so at first it was like I don't know I think they called they've got like a word for it I think it's called like love bombing or something like literally like he was taking me out every single week doing a like telling me to move in with him buying me stuff like and I was thinking oh okay nice cool whatever um he asked me to be his girlfriend and we moved in together and then that's when it just started slowly slowly creeping in that it got to the point where he'd have cameras in the house trackers on my car recording devices in my car um and obviously he was beating me up as well what yeah that's a fucking line attack so I went from like one extreme to another yeah because I wasn't selling any drugs with him I was just but then what happens that and then as you're being totally controlled where you become dependent on these people yeah no money no nothing you need them yeah slowly gradually fucking break your soul that just typical like dv relationship literally that's exactly what it was so how did you get away from that one I just left I'd had enough after that many years of going through all of these things I couldn't take it no more and by this point I don't know how I got there I don't know if it was my friends or I don't know what happened but I managed to get the strength to say no you deserve better than this like this is not for this life is not for you you are meant to do better things than this you are a better person than this you you're deserved to be treated right and I left did ever come after you uh for a while yeah yeah typical like controlling man he couldn't get couldn't let me go um but he's let go now everything takes time yeah so what happens after that then when you try to get away from another abusive relationship where every man that comes in at your leave kind of just fucking torment you so what do you do then what's your steps you have to just you just have to trust your instincts and hope that this time you're going to be right that this person is going to treat you right and just have hope that humanity is good and not all men are going to be like that there's some men out here that were raised right and know how to treat a woman right as well yeah that's difficult because we do put I believe like attracts like as well sometimes where you're attracting that energy because it's like any drug there's a low vibrational being it's not that are bad people it's what they're conditioned to do yeah and your product to your environment is well where it seems fucking normal living in a life of chaos is normal so when I started making changes when you're in peace you think or something not right what the fuck is wrong here so you caused a bit of chaos just to fucking feel normal again but I just feel like that I mean there is no narrative of this but like drug dealers are not bad people but women beaters are do you know what I mean so even though he was a drug dealer that side of me wasn't concerned about that you can make your money however you want to make your money at the end of the day as long as I'm not involved but to be physical towards the women is just it's just not right like there's no excuse in it is there really no excuse in many behaviors but we're living in a society and we're accepting a lot yeah and that's for anybody watching a listening you don't need to accept fuck all you own nobody nothing in this life you only get one shot at that yeah but if you're not if you're in that relationship feel that pain if you're in a job you hate a dig deep man make the changes make the sacrifices and and spread your wings and try and make a better life yourself and that's for anybody that's in a building site or yeah and I think at the end of the day that saying is so true like if you don't love yourself no one's going to be able to love you like you really have to love yourself and know your worth before a man or a partner is going to know your worth but it's difficult because we all struggle with that I think the world in our world where we don't really love ourselves enough we can always speak about it and preach it but it's difficult because we're constantly competing against other people especially on social media and that's what I was saying earlier that people can make changes whether you're on a building site taxi driver lorry driver whatever it is you can want more in life if you're happy with that life then so be it good on you but you can always want more you can always run your own business you can always call your own shots and take things to where you want to take it so how did your book come about was it top girl yeah so it's called top girl um I didn't actually choose that name but the um so I had a ghost right I helped me with this book and he um he chose the name because kind of as a spin-off of like top boy which is like everyone's everyone really enjoys that series it's a great series um and it came about because I did a radio interview about county lions drug dealing with BBC and he reached out to me and had heard me on the radio and he was like look like I think your story's amazing it's inspiring and I'd like to help you write your book so I was like amazing and we got to work COVID hit and um we took it as a good sort of opportunity to not do any other work I just focus on the book um we did hours of interviews like hours and hours and hours of interviews and he was very considerate like you know make sure you're not retraumatising yourself and we got it done and he yeah it's a big achievement like I feel really proud it's not every day you write a book yeah you should how much was how hard was it though to trust somebody saying look we can write a book this and that you're not thinking another fucking chance or did you just feel right to be honest at first I think everyone around me was quite concerned everyone was like what is what are his intentions out of this what does everyone want like are you just going to sell yourself from an amount of money and um for me it was more than that like I just wanted to because I think if you if you read the book it's it's got some horrible stories in there but at the end it's I am trying to inspire people and empower people that you don't need to live like this so that was more my motivation for saying do you know what trust this man tell him your story and hopefully it can help someone in the future how was it writing the book how was it going over the experiences does that make you realise how fucked up your life was or did you already know that anyway I already knew and also like I said these complex PTSD I don't feel anything for these events they literally feel like nothing so and I I don't mean that that sounds like it comes across wrong but it's not mean it's not meant like that if you know what I mean it's like it's like I've my brain has detached itself from from these events that's why I can go over them and not really feel too much pain um but the only part obviously that did hurt was um at the back of the book of the the last chapter I've written a letter to my son and that was very hard for me but you say your details but there's still been a lot of emotion in your faces we are talking about certain things that is that just to kind of block out the pain if you just become so numb to life and immune to you never come immune to fucking pain but you know what I mean like will you try and block it out so much that you don't want to feel it because you know how painful it is or do you think one day it's just gonna you're just going to open the gates and it's just going non-stop yeah no um I don't know because I've never let that happen I've always just kept it inside and the times I have thought about my son I is I'm just going to be inconsolable and I don't want to be weak I don't I've got things to do I've got things to fight for and things to live for and I can't live my life you know being upset and depressed like I want to be happy I've spent a long time being very sad did you ever think you would write a book never in my life like when everyone was texting me like oh my god you're going to be an author this year and I was it was just mind blowing to me that that is what I can now say I am and I'm super super proud like and I just want some per one person to just read it and understand a little bit more than they did yesterday about other people's lives is your mum still alive yeah did you know half the shirt that went on no no did you have to give people a heads up no I've asked everyone that is around me anyone I care about I would I'd prefer if they didn't read the book um why is that just because I want to protect people from being hurt anymore because I think my family and my friends are proud of me and I don't want to taint their mind of me like I don't want them to think I'm a horrible person so I've asked them to not read the book if they don't if they do I'm never gonna I don't think I'm gonna know anyway but yeah I hope they kind of take that into account how hard does that because I've met your boyfriend seems like a nice guy he's a nice guy like I genuinely am happy and I just feel like I've just got this sense of like I can't put it into words I just feel so free now like I just don't feel any sadness I don't feel any pain like I wake up in the morning I'm happy and yeah I don't want to cry so let me just not yeah but that's a good feeling yeah because we'll fuck up we'll make mistakes look at the tournament you've been through you were going for a young age fucks sake you were used and abused that to come out another end it and then write a book then it becomes an inspiration for other people you're not a bad person because you sell gear yes it's a bad thing you destroy life but you've got to come to the conclusion that what you're doing is wrong and as long as you can do that then you can grow from it we ain't who we were in the past yeah so we can't be there like we fuck up we make mistakes it's life man it's everybody does it but we can't live there I'm different for who I was last week yesterday 10 years ago and I'm fucking glad because I don't like who the fuck I was the shit that I'd done and I was involved in my it still hurts your heart at this day but you can't really live there because it would consume you life goes on we make mistakes I've seen the the biggest and baddest men make the most amazing transitions in life to become great individuals and I've seen people who had it all together and became absolutely fucking divils we don't know what's around the corner yeah split instincts and split seconds people's life can change for the better or worse yeah like how is that then going through your life and going through your book and how is it going through a relationship and talking about that as well that listen somebody's got to accept you for who you are what you've done the good and the bad to truly love you and then that's when you go okay I feel safe here but do you think part of you not want them to read their book that they'll judge you towards the green and that happens that you've got will maybe get took away um yeah parts yeah there's partly true and just it's just I know it sounds so weird because I've now put it in a book for everyone to read but this is my my personal life laid out in small small details and I just feel like some there's some people in your life that you just want to keep some things private from because you don't like I said earlier like I don't want anyone to be tainted and I don't want anyone to look at me sideways or not feel like they can trust me what did your mom say my mom said she wouldn't read the book and I don't think she will um she made a joke she was like oh let's I'm gonna maybe you can read it to me on my deathbed I was like that would push it over the fucking edge yeah that's what I said back I said bloody hell that might be the last straw um but yeah let's see I don't know she's she's very proud of me now and I'm very lucky to have her with partly you want your son reading your book in a few years no and that's like part of the reason even though I put the letter in there that's more for like people to feel like a mother's pain um I wouldn't really want my son reading it and that's partly the reason why I chose to like do this anonymously and like write my book under a different name and stuff because um although I am going to tell him I want it to be when he's ready and not because he's seen it in a bookshop and picked up and been like that's my mum so I want to do that in like a private setting what about going forward for the future for your son like what's the steps then to try and get him back is it your son's choice is it there the social workers yeah what's choice here how does it work um there's no social workers involved um which is great um and it's more that my son doesn't really remember me being his mum so and he's got a life you know with his family and he refers to someone else's mum now and I don't want to disrupt that too soon I want this to all be on his terms and at his pace which is why currently it's just letter writing back and forth and like some pictures here and there and I get to send him presents and like Christmas presents and birthday cards and things like that and I'm hoping that we can progress this further to like maybe telephone or seeing him in person at some stage hopefully soon how do you think you'll be when you get to hear your son's voice I I can't even I don't even know what his voice sounds like anymore I don't know how big his hands are I don't know how tall he is so in my head I still see him as that little baby and like sometimes like I can feel his little hand in my hand and that's how I remember him like a tiny little hand and his hand's not tiny anymore so I don't know how I'm gonna feel it's gonna be very emotional yeah such a difficult one because obviously your life was a fucking it was a mess let's be honest but however took your son in has done it for protection if they're hearing stories there's gunshots your son could have got one in the head man of course you imagine what your life would have been like for you know you're in prison for murder and your own son basically yeah because you don't know who's going to full shit take blame or whatever in these circumstances everybody's ruthless everybody looks out for themselves so what they do is try and blame the girl who's house it's in because everything comes on top for you no matter who's cooking a gear in there it's still you're there so you get the blame so for the parents as well it must be hard but at least you're getting to saying christmas presents and stuff like have you ever spoke to the people who's raised your son um yeah he's with family um so I know he's been well looked after and you know I've said to them like I appreciate you stepping up and taking care of your child our child yeah yeah you will get to seeing one day and we're at that age now we're living with them we'll be asking questions like 13 14 that it doesn't matter who how far the the bond has been broke like the bond is always still going to be there where a mother and son is the strongest bond on this planet I believe that my mum is an absolute fucking psychopath but I love her to bits and everything I do is for my family like everything I do now I was selfish for many years I made a lot of money but I had bad addictions gambling and a fake party life where nobody got fuck all now everything I do is for the family everything I do is to make when I succeed they succeed yeah that's why I keep going that's why I keep raising the barn you can never give up hope no matter what you're doing in life no matter how fucked up if you're lying in a prison cell people come out change their life and become inspirational you're becoming an inspiration from selling gear from everything you've been through the torment the pain living in fucking hell you've been separated for too long in your prime example you don't need to accept it no more yeah no 100% and that's what my motivation is for for my family and for the people I love what's it like feeling happy just free I just feel like just light and just like just every day like nothing bothers me like nothing can't bother me anymore I'm just happy like anything that comes at me now it's just like I'm it's not really going to affect me because I'm happy now how do you move on from everything you've been through is a big part of forgiveness in that from the people who abused you um no I just need to forgive myself I don't give any energy to those people I don't give any energy to anyone that was in my past I just give energy to myself now and I just trust I like I've trust that people are good people still I still like maintain that to this day that are good people out here did you ever think you would get to that stage having good people around you being happy waking up thinking that fuck me man that life's pretty good to you um no there was times when I didn't think that um and there's been times when you know back then when I'd lie in bed and think no I will be happy and I will get married and I'll have my family and kids and live in a nice house that's always what I've wanted and hopefully I can get that how has it been talking about this experience harder than I thought um I never I never think I'm going to get emotional but I was very close and that's like super weird for me so yeah yeah because this goes out a big audience as well and yeah and it's it's it can be nerve wracking but it's still your story we're also here to promote a book as well and for people listening plenty of people are abused and too scared to come forward for anybody that looks watching that's maybe been through a bit of a fucked up life that and they don't see maybe a way out what advice would you have for them don't if they don't see a way out um there's always a way out there's always you you can always forgive yourself like you and I think I said it earlier just we have to learn to love ourselves like really focus on that and don't worry about anyone else where do you go for the future onwards and upwards um yeah just try and like I do a job that I love um I've got good people around me um and continue fighting for my son and I don't know where the future is going to take me but I just know it's going to be good that's all you can do yeah what about your book potential getting done in a series or a film or where do you go with that I would love that like that's such a huge opportunity obviously um and if it comes it comes and I'm just riding the wave at the moment I don't I didn't know what would happen with this book I didn't know if I'd sell only one copy and no one would care um so I'm just seeing what would happen and just going with the flow really where can people buy your book they could buy in any major bookstore um they can buy it on amazon um yeah do you like to finish up on anything no thank you very very much it's been great and thank you for having me that's indeed I wish you all the best for the future good luck with the book good luck with everything and hopefully one day you get to see your son thank you god bless