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We found and discovered that a lot of the young boys in there there were cases of bestiality on their farms where they'd gone and had sex with animals. They were so desperate to you know have sex with someone that and they were so what they're thinking was so mixed up that there were several instances of bestiality. The 12 tribes give you a new name and new personality and new identity. You can't read newspapers, watch TV, there's no radio and no books that aren't approved by the cult right so you're cut off from the outside world. All the marriages are decided by the elders like they decide who marries who and before you can get married you have to be put on a waiting period and you can't touch your partner you can't look at them, kiss them, you just have to you are matched with someone that you can't engage in any sexual contact. There's a 348 page manual on how to discipline your children. So when to hit them, how to hit them, how hard to hit them, what to tell them after you hit them you know the child raising manual is really a dark document. They basically have to stage and escape nowhere Mark with the help of some other former members in the group had to have to get her out. There was another guy senior member who got his head cut off with a tractor in traffic, ran into the back of the his brakes failed again. He ran into the back of a tractor. And boomerang and today's guest we get Tim earlier. Tim, how are you? Good, good. How are you going, James? Yeah, really? Well, thank you. Obviously, you're in awe of the accent. So the time difference is clearly different. But we've got here in the end, Tim, you've got a investigative journalist background award winner. I believe offered as well. I believe what you're not also. Yeah, written quite a bunch of books. Yeah. So this is this pod, though, is quite something different. Quite a different journey. That's that's for sure. I'd never done a pod, but especially not on a group like this. It was pretty bizarre. Yeah, this is why we're here today because you kind of exposed the cult, the 12 tribes, some dark, demonic, satanic, weird shit like I watched I watched something on Netflix as well last year called pray and obey. Oh, yeah. It's so weird. Make the Christian church side of things, but these men will have in like 70 wives and hundreds of kids that just people manipulated groomed from as soon as they're born with these weird fucking cults. Like before we get into it, you know, always like to go back to the start of my guests and get a bit understanding about you, how you function and what you're all about. King's Art, will you grow up? How it all began? Sure. How it all began. Well, I grew up in Sydney and I always wanted to be a journal and when I was growing up and the main paper in Sydney, in fact, the main paper in Australia really is the Sydney Morning Herald. So I was, you know, dreamt of joining the Herald and work my ass off as a freelance journal for years and years and and then joined the Herald about 17 years ago. So I've been working for them for yeah, almost coming up to 20 years now. So it's pretty exhausting, but it's it's been fantastic because, you know, you get licensed to write all, you know, sort of all about all sorts of stuff. And I work on the magazine, the Saturday magazine. So we write longer features and get quite a long time to write them and investigate them. And yeah, it's a dream job, really. Still, I still love it. What made you want to become a journalist, family members, friends, anybody? My dad was a doctor. I don't know why. Look, I just always wanted to. I was always interested in writing when I was a kid, like I just, you know, make up stories, literally just make up stories and write them down in in notebooks. I pretend that, you know, I used to he used to try and copy the actual font that newspapers had, you know, like Times, Rome and, you know, like that sort of stuff. I just thought it was so cool. I used to read the paper every morning with mum at the dinner at the breakfast table in the cinema. It was always a Sydney Morning Herald. And I don't know, I like the idea of telling stories, you know, like I just like the idea of talking to people, telling good yarns. And I think storytelling is what keeps us all going, really. Yeah, it's great. It's just working with something. Everything's our story. Everything is just a journey with our story. And it's how that's the thing about life and we're going off path here, but it's just you can create your own story, how it ends up, how it goes. And that's the mad thing about it, I guess. But what was your first ever article you're up? First ever article, man, that was a long time ago. Actually, you know, when I was young, I was the first, I can't remember the first article, but I do remember the first time I went on work experience. When I was at school, when I was about 15, they have, you know, had work experience trips. And they gave us the opportunity to spend, say, you know, where do you want to work? You want to work with a bank or you want to work with, you know, lawyers. And I was like, no, you know, fuck that, I just I want to be a journal. So they, they put send me out to spend a week or two with the crime reporter at a newspaper called the Daily Telegraph, which is a really kind of hardcore tabloid. And it was just I loved it. It was so I spent like spent two weeks basically hanging out with a guy called Jack Doherty, who was a famous legendary crime reporter back in the day. And Jack and Jack took me out really early in the morning, sort of six o'clock in the morning with a police radio tracker. So we drive around seeing what where the cops were heading and and follow the cops. It was just also I remember going, Yeah, this is the kind of job for me. I want to do this. What was your first proper job? First proper job. I drove a cab or drive a cab when I was at uni. That was an interesting work, right? Delivered pizzas. But I guess the first proper job I had was yeah, driving cabs. It was our experience. Don't know, ever driven cabs? No, my dad just to though. He fucking hated that though. He fucking hated that. Man, it's fucking hard. You know, it's hard because you're dealing with the public all the time. Like every time you pick someone up, every job is a new person. And you're like, who's it going to be now? What is their situation going to be like? What problems do they have? Do they want to cause me any chaos? Are they cool? You know, yeah, it was pretty intense. But usually actually when I drove way back, started in the late 80s, and they you could actually make really good money back then. You know, you might make 250 for a 12 hour shift on a Friday night. But now it's different. You know, you've got Uber and all these rideshare stuff, which have really sort of chopped away at for all cabbies livelihoods. Do you think working as a taxi driver though benefited you interviewing later on in life because you had so so many different personalities? Yeah, I think it did actually. I hadn't I haven't really thought of that. But I think it did probably because also you had to you know, there were lots of times I'd have some pretty hairy people in the cab who you know, I had people who want to bash me and rob me and people throwing up in the cab all that sort of crap. And yeah, I think that actually telling telling being a good talker and telling stories and listening to other people was really useful. So yeah, I think you're quite right. I hadn't thought of that until now. When did you go for that up there and and follow your dreams? Um, I gave that up really when I left uni, I was only doing an arts degree at uni. It wasn't particularly a special degree, but I just wanted to read about you know, I wanted to read books and learn how writing happened and and how you know, good writers and stuff like that. And then yeah, I gave it up when I basically left when overseas for a year to India and just sort of backpacked around and came back and got a job at with some sports magazines, some surfing magazines. Yeah, that's how I started. How hard does it be in a journalist? Because I'm not a lot of journalists get a rough read a lot of stories can be made up, but there's a lot of good journalists and always say that who try and do the best for their job and find the truth like how hard was it going into writing and working for magazines and newspapers? Did you see the kind of that element of people not trusting journalists? I funnily enough, I don't know if you come across as a decent person. You know, there's always people, you know, you just not going to believe you or trust you or that's the same anywhere. But if you essentially if you're halfway decent person and you're honest with people, and you don't force you way into their lives and you treat the other people as a human human being, and you listen to their story, then most the time people are cool with it and they're okay with it and you develop a rapport. So it's much like you're doing right now. You're brilliant. Thank you. What was your boss? What was your first big article you draw or the first big job you've got? Probably a big story. Well, I've got to say, like probably the most interesting one was the one that started this podcast. And it was way back when way back in 2000. I mean, I've done lots of other stories, but this was one story that really struck with me stuck with me because it was about this cult about a group that seemed so out of left field and so unbelievable. And yet the people who were telling me about it were completely credible, legit people who who had incredible had been through some really fucking hairy shit. And and they trusted me and that was way back in 2008. So that and I've been following the story of a sense of top tribes. How do you deal with it? Because because I interview a lot of survivors, a lot of hard hitting stories. And that was never my intention starting this podcast. But when you start interviewing one, you start shedding a light on a lot of darkness and nobody else touches on. And a lot of other people then come forward and I feel as if it's my duties to then give them the platform to try and raise awareness and show how strong you can be and show that no matter how dark your life can be, you can still make positive changes. But I don't really think about it after the interview, what's been really says. It's like sometimes it's like a couple of months later, it'll maybe hit what the fuck is actually going on in this world. How do you deal with some of the dark stuff that you've worked on over the years? Well, it's it's important to really. One of the one of the usually don't get really you only get affected by a few stories because you realise, you know, it's not really about you, it's the people you're writing about who have got the really crappy situation in their life. They're the ones going through the shit, right? So you're just the guy documenting it and acting as a kind of a conduit to tell that story. But so it's always worth keeping in mind that actually they're the people who are suffering or going through all that shit. But actually, it did go through a really I did go the the worst story had. Probably the weirdest and most affecting story was I went out to meet a woman for the magazine and went out to do a feature on on hoarders. This sounds really kind of like weird, but it was about hoarders, you know, people who keep lots of possessions and can't get rid of them. You know what a hoarder is, you know, people who hoard stuff, you know, possessions might be newspapers. They can't throw anything out, right? And this one woman I met was the older woman and she was her obsession was with her cats. And again, this sounds kind of like sort of funny, but it was so not funny like this woman. She couldn't divorce herself from her cats and the cats are overrun her house and just shit everywhere, all through the house. And she was mentally ill and she couldn't. Didn't know how to deal with the situation. It was just a freaking nightmare and seeing that her house being treated like that and her not being able to deal with it was like the shit on the floor from the animals there was like all the stuff. It was like it was all the all the mental illness in her head and the horrible dark stuff in her head had become manifest in all that shit in her house. Do you know what I mean? It was like this really visceral kind of I was really and that was oddly enough, you know, that was actually really upsetting and I've covered wars and, you know, being to Columbia, the initial anchor during the war and all sorts of stuff. And that was really weird. That was just in Sydney in the Western suburbs and it was really, really affecting. How many cats did you have? Oh, God, she would have like 20. You know, it was just her life was out of control, you know, it spun out of control and she was just. Yeah, it was really that was it was like came back. Come on. Oh, my God, that poor human being. Pretty fucked up. How how hard does it to work on wars and write about wars and see the destruction that it causes all around the world? Does that just become the norm if you're doing it consistently? Or does like I said, does it ever go home and think shit? And the same kids, people losing brothers, loved ones, fathers. So yeah, um, um, again, you're lucky, the first thing it's been first and foremost, you think, thank God, it's not me. It sounds really selfish, but you do. You go, my life is incredibly good compared to these peoples, which I think is a healthy response because it puts everything in perspective for you. And if you've got any empathy at all, you just can't believe the shit that people go through and the pain and, you know, I interviewed a torture victim in Sri Lanka who had his testicles slammed into a drawer, slammed in a drawer repeatedly when he's getting tortured by the, to being a supposed Tamil tiger. Just stuff and also people getting ripped off by their governments, you know, in India, we did a story in corruption there with a big mining magnate who, you know, he just, he just didn't care. He just built mines all over the country and just over villages. And, you know, just screwed people over, you know, and you just go far out. People suffer a lot in the world. Yeah, that's the hard thing about trying to uncover a lot of stories that you're just trying to do the right thing. But again, it can, it can take away from what the beautiful thing is in life, but the world is run by good and evil. It's just a mad thing that how did you end up involved in the tribe and the cult side of things? How did that come about? Because that was years ago. And then obviously you came back to it. But how did it foster? OK, so in 2008, I was doing, I did a story about exit counsellors and exit counsellors are basically and it was just a news story. It wasn't a story from the magazine at that stage. So it was kind of like a short story about people who the D program is right. They go in and they grab people who are part of a cult and they try and extract them and then they try and work through their thinking and explain to this person why they're being taken advantage of and unscramble all the bullshit that the cults put in there. So and the day next day after that story ran, I got a call from a guy who said, oh, my God, you know, read your story and do I have a story about a cult that you need to read that you need to tell? And basically this guy had been a member of this Christian fundamentalist sect called the Twelve Tribes. Now, the tribes are the tribes are sort of all over the world and they operate according to a strict religious orthodox beliefs that are very strict with children. And I sort of I started to get into it. And the more I read about it and the more members I talked to, the more horrific and bizarre the cult appeared to be. You know, everything's like there's so many different cults out there and that's where the brain is such a powerful tool. It can be manipulated and to believe in something's right. When looking from the outside, you see it's wrong, but you can't. It's hard to say that what it must be hard to explain to people that what they're doing is wrong when they've been brought up brought up with their whole fucking life. Like, yeah, but that was a bit the brain. Is it Pray and obey the Netflix one that I was just shocked that people couldn't see how narcissistic, manipulative that guy was. Jeff, something I can't remember his name, but it was just so weird to think that they were gods and people actually believed that people actually worshipped him. When did it? What was it like speaking to somebody who was actually involved with one of those tribes? It was just look, these people, a lot of people are like, what a fucking idiot, you know, these people should get out of the cult. And what are they thinking? No, it's so stupid. It's really important to realize that not blame the victim. Like these people, their only crime was to be idealistic, right? People are all the members I talk to, the former members of the 12 tribes. They all they wanted to do was to be part of a beautiful community who people who loved one another and took care of one another. And that is how the 12 tribes appear, right, on the surface. They're not going to, you know, they give off a very their shot front is really beautiful and caring and and dolphins and rainbows. Right. It's all about growing, growing your own food, living in peace and harmony and looking after one another, your brothers and sisters. Right. So a lot of people go, that's great. I want to do that. You know, I personally would love to do that. But, you know, like to get out of the rat race and that sort of stuff, but it's only when they moved in closer and became more vulnerable to the group's teachings and became more involved and entwined with the people inside the cult that over time they realized they were subject. Well, they didn't realize it, but they were subject to a type of brainwashing and they weren't really in a position to leave. They sort of there's lots of elements that keep people in the group, you know, like if you spent 10 years in a group like that, you've often lost your family. You've been because if you join these groups, you're given a whole new name as well. You're given the 12 tribes, give you a new name, a new personality, a new identity. You can't read newspapers, watch TV, there's no radio and no books that aren't approved by the cult. Right. So you're cut off from the outside world, you're cut off from your family and former friends. You aren't allowed to own a phone, you're not allowed to own an operator computer, have a bank account, have a phone plan, any of that sort of stuff. OK, you got totally taken over by the group. That's really appealing to a lot of people because it's a safety net. But then after years of being in there, they lose their autonomy. Right. They've got no control over their life anymore. It's a little like someone who might be in an abusive relationship, you know, like a woman who's in a relationship with a guy who's beating her up. So the woman often stays because, number one, she might actually, you know, they once loved one another. It might be too hard financially for her to leave. It might be too daunting emotionally for her to disengage yourself from that relationship. It's all sorts of reasons that people it's just not as simple as saying, why don't you just leave? It's just not that easy. Yeah, you've got trauma bonding, you've got the Stockholm syndrome. You've got so many different things that you're actually connected to that person you think because you love them, you'll be there for them. But it's crazy because in this day and age as well, we're talking about masculine energy and feminine energy and men can have multiple wives and women should be in the house raising families. I'm personally old school morals. I believe I should be providing and protecting. I believe the the message should be raising the kids. I want my kids to be around their mother as much as possible. But we live in a society where a lot of madness is getting accepted for me, if you cheat on a woman, if you cheat on your girlfriend or your wife, you don't love her. And for me, if the woman takes them back, then she doesn't love herself because. Yeah, yeah. I just think they then become both of them are losers. Obviously, people make mistakes and people can change. It happens. But if you genuinely love someone, the last thing you want to do is hurt them. The last thing you want to do is jeopardise that. I think we're trying to normalise a lot of madness. Now, with tick-tock and other things on social media, where people think it's to be an alpha and be a player. But if you want to be an alpha in life, then all you need to do is be a good father, be a good friend, be a good husband. It's it's pretty simple. No matter if you're flitten burgers and McDonald's or. You're building skyscrapers that everybody's different. As long as you're providing them for me, you're doing the right job. Do you see the juicy the vulnerability in these people, though? Did you see there was something missing over that? Actually, just normal people looking for, like you say, it's a selling point. For me, it's nature and away from the rat race, not having a TV and reading newspapers is a pretty fucking healthy thing. That yeah, anybody can buy into that. It's people might think it's airy fairy. But a lot of people are seeing the world as controlled and manipulated. And if you're looking for a guidance or if you think you found a new family, by all means, that's great. But did you see there was maybe something missing in these people? Or what did you see that that actually that it was just mass manipulation? Well, I think that it's all different. You know, the people join for different reasons. They might be vulnerable emotionally at that time. Like I don't care what people say, but at certain times in your life, if you look back, you've been almost everybody has felt really shitty and vulnerable and they've been weak at a certain period in their life where they're looking for certain things. And it's just at that key moment, you know, that hinge moment in their life that if they run into someone like a cult or say a really charismatic person, they can fall. They can come under this way a lot easier than if you're, you know, if you're a really if you're really strong in yourself or not, I mean, so there are vulnerabilities in people that make them more susceptible to to these groups. But also, I think normal people, you know, I meant, man, there are there are doctors in this group. There are lawyers that one guy talked to was a freaking chemical engineer. You know, and it's and they and he just joined really because he loved his wife and his wife was really into it. So he was like, OK, look, I'll go along with it. You know, I'm joined. I'm you know, I'm open minded guy. I'll I'll give it a go. You know, that's why he joined because of his wife. You know, he wanted to be with his wife. As it happened, he had to get out when really ugly stuff started to happen. He had to get out and he asked his kids who wanted to stay behind. And actually the wife said, I'm staying inside here and you can take the kids, which is one of the reasons I got really affected and really emotionally caught up with this cult because they divide families and they're very powerful, like for a woman like that, a mother to say, you can take the kids. I'm going to stay here. In other words, she abandoned her children. That's a very powerful group, man. A cult that can do that, a sect that can do that. How did the twelve three start? How did this call? Sorry, I'm raving. I'm raving now. How did it start? It started in the in the states in Chattanooga in Tennessee with a guy called Gene Spreex. And Gene was. Um. Super charismatic guy. He grew up in the 60s and he had a really eventful life. Like he was basically by the time that I mean, the 60s was pretty eventful in itself, you know, like. You know, there now and there was Woodstock and Charles Manson, all sorts of sit-ins, all sorts of stuff. He was even by the standards of the time, his life was uncommonly eventful, right? And he, by the age of 32, he'd been married three times. He'd had a son, he joined the army, he'd left the army and he'd cycled through a series of of jobs like he'd been a tour guide, a year nine school guidance counsellor. He'd managed a carpet factory. He'd also really pissed people off. He'd borrowed a lot of money from his friends and family and and hadn't paid them back. And basically he was. So he's a trouble guy. He was walking on a beach in California one day in 1972 and he believed he heard the word of God, God speaking to him, telling him to set up a new church. And that's what he did. And that new church turned into the 12 tribes. How many people are in the 12 tribes? Oh, it's small. It's only about 3,000 people, 4,000 people worldwide. But it's a varied. So it flies, totally flies under the radar. Like it's in, but it's in every country, too. You guys have a group in Honitun and Exeter, I think have groups in South America, Europe, Spain, France, Czechoslovakia. Now they used to have one in Germany until the authorities threw them out Australia. Yeah, they're everywhere. So where do they live? Is it like as their own community? Do they build their own houses? Because if they pray and obey one, they had kids as young as 10, like unbelievable building houses. They trained them so young, they were worth millions. Like where do these people stay? Is it caravans, houses? OK, yeah, they are a wealthy group. Now they run businesses all around the world, like demolition crews, construction businesses, soap factories, shoe factories, food, restaurant, bakeries, all sorts of stuff. So they've got money and they put that money into buying properties all around the world. Mate, they they own like 10 million dollars of property in Sydney alone, at least that we can see. So they own a big farm, for example, outside of Sydney. It's like it's massive. It's 8.2 hectares. It's got a creek running through it, multiple buildings, farm farms, terraced farm lands where they grow their food. They so they've, yeah, now they've got all sorts of properties all around the world. Usually they've got a massive mate tea farm in Brazil, which they use to export tea to the States. They're very, very well established and they earn good money and they live in basically they live in but their members live in poverty a lot of the time. It was Warren. Yeah, Warren Jeff. That's the man's name who had done the prayer. Yeah. And he went to prison. So these people are still running. They're running multi-million dollar businesses. So everything they're doing is above board. They can't be shut down. They can't get done for proceeds of crime and everything stripped from them. Are they doing it in such a way where they're so manipulative they're doing it where they can't be sent to prison? Well, OK, all of the people in the 12 tribes work for free. Right. Everybody. And so they start, the kids start working at the age of five. So the kids will be working in, you know, I spoke to kids who've been chopping vegetables, working in kitchens from the age of seven. And then by 15, they were doing 12 hour days in bakeries, 17 hour days in bakeries. For free, not a single penny, because they don't classify themselves or the group doesn't. The 12 tribes don't classify them as workers. They are volunteers, you know, in inverted commas. And when they're in there, most of the people are willing to go along with that because they believe in the mission. They believe that they're living for one another and they're willing to work for free. It's only when they get out, they go far out. Man, I was really taken advantage of there and really ripped off. How do they recruit people? What's their plan? Well, the advertisement and people want to join or do they go out their way and try and manipulate people to join? Oh, man, they go out and try and recruit people. Like the couple that the podcast is is based on. It's a beautiful couple. Is that Mark and Rose? Yeah, Mark and Rose. They were in Sydney. Rose is sort of Spanish-French, Mark's a Kiwi. They were living in, but they sort of spent most of their time in Sydney. They were back. They've been in Europe in the early or the mid 90s. They came back to be in Sydney. And so they're in a bit of a between, you know, in a bit of a state of flux, you know, they're trying to find their feet again, get a job. And they didn't quite know. So they were kind of a bit at a loose end. And then they're at a music festival in Sydney. And they were literally, Mark was literally sitting there and he said, oh, look, I'm going to have with Rose and the kid, the kid that had one kid that stage. So he got up and said, I was going to walk around. And he was walking around and this woman in a long flowing dress and long hair came up to him and said, oh, it looks like you need a home. And and it was like he did it that time. He was at a loose end. So kind of struck him as like, oh, really struck a chord. And that woman was from the 12 tribes. She said, oh, you should come out to our farm outside of Sydney. It's beautiful, you know, we we have music nights on a Friday and we grow all our own food and, you know, we'll look after you and stuff like that. And so that's how it started, you know, and Mark and Rose went out to the farm on the Friday and the Friday after that, they went back. And then the Friday after that, they went back again because they liked it. And after a couple of weeks, a month or so, they were gone, you know, what, we're going to throw our lot in with this group. We're going to we're going to join. And how do they really get their claws in? Is it all rainbows and butterflies at the start where everybody's singing and dancing and they think they found a place like heaven? Like, did they actually believe they were in a good place? Because even when you're talking about it as appealing, and I would like to think I'm on the ball where I think that's a bit fucking creepy, but the growing, the old fruit growing your own fruit and veg and just try to live in nature, it is appealing to most people. But you don't know the depths of it goes. When did how long were they in it? When they realized that something was amiss? Yeah, OK, so after I think it was after I mean, they were in there for 13 years. Right. So I think it was bicycle, but in the first two or three years, they had some serious doubts because one thing that this group is really well known for or it's one of the hallmarks of the group is really strong discipline. OK, so if you you can, any kid who does not respond to a command from an adult can be beaten and will be beaten severely with a stick immediately and they can be beaten by their parents or by any other adult. And we talked through the call through the podcast to members of the cult who had former members who had seen children beaten to a pulp, Red Raw, and that's lots of people that's widely documented. And these parents felt absolutely terrible about it. They'd done things that they could not forgive themselves. But at the time, they thought it was right. Now, Rose and Mark, when it got to that stage of. Of having to beat their children doing what the elders told taught them. They started to kind of go, you know what, this is really fucked up. I don't think it's right. But by that time, they were well and truly ensconced. They were that group had its claws in them psychologically. And, you know, it's like I was saying, it's not that easy to leave. Like that given them all their money, you know, they didn't have a house anymore. They'd sold their car that's all of their belongings. So we're going to go even if you wanted to leave. It's like, oh, shit, I'm stuck. What was the deal with it in like being in this cult? They get up, they get up about seven a.m. They have a series of prayer meetings, then they go out and basically work in work. The men go and work in farming in the fields. Mark was one of the first jobs Mark had was to tend to flock of sheep. And they prepare all the food together. They have multiple prayer meetings every day, multiple meetings where they have to confess their sins to one another and where they're reprimanded in group group meetings for not being sufficiently repentant. And then they basically, yeah, they have a lot of that going. A lot of a lot of theology, a lot of like scripture and teaching. And and then, yeah, it's very women then worth basically in teaching, child care, cooking. It's very regimented, gender based life. And women are very much under this arm. You're like women there are the belongings of men. They they they are second class citizens. And you do what your husband tells you at all times. And it's much like the show you watched with the Mormons or the Amish, where they dress as they're even comparisons to the Amish where they dress like it's basically long flowing dresses. All the men wear pony tails. It's very modesty. You can't show any flesh. You can't show any skin. All all marriages. I know I'm rabing here. I'm going on and seeing a different tangents, but it's so fascinating. All the marriages are decided by the elders, like they decide who marries who. And before you can get married, you have to be put on a waiting period and you can't touch your partner. You can't look at them, kiss them. You just have to you are matched with someone, but you can't engage in any sexual contact. It's just so gender divided and so strict. The morals are so strict that it's very hard to live up to. And if you fuck up and you do something wrong, then they come down, you know, like a ton of bricks and make you feel like a. Piece of crap, like you're not a, you know, worthy. And so a lot of the guilt is a lot of guilt that goes around the group. And at one stage, oddly enough, the gender apartheid, they're like women. You know, young guys growing up in the group don't get to have sex, you know, because you're just not like, you know, us growing up as kids, you know, you sort of go into parties and sleeping around and having fun and doing all sorts of stuff, right? Young boys in there, they don't they don't sleep with any other young girls. They don't. So we found and discovered that a lot of the young boys in there, there were cases of bestiality on their farms where they'd they'd gone and had sex with animals. They were so desperate to, you know, have sex with someone that and they were so war, their thinking was so mixed up that that there were several instances of bestiality. And then once that was discovered by the elders, the the the boys had to go out, kill the animals and bury them in the in the ground with a backhoe. So pretty messed up. Yeah, that's fucked up. They must be fucked up in general. Like, if you're not getting sex, that if I wasn't getting sex, that's why I'm thinking about who's going fucking a horse or a sheep. Do you know what I mean? Yes, it's very messed up. Yeah. Yeah. How many of the elders were there? How many of them? It's hard to say. It's like there's just, yeah, there might be a group of senior people in each community, you know, who call the shots. But it's very regimented as well. It's regimented, but also very fluid. So you might there's not meant to be any hierarchy. You know, you're always told, no, it's for everyone's on the level. Anybody has the ability to speak and raise their voice and and have their concerns heard. But in actual fact, there's a very strict hierarchy where you've got people who wield a lot of power over your life. For example, if you in the Sydney community, and I'm sure in other communities around the world, in the 12 tribes, if you wanted like there were people who say needed a new pair of shoes, right? But you're not allowed outside the grounds, you know, by yourself to wander around with a bank account. So what they do is they go, they have to go to one of the elders and say, oh, you know, I need a new pair of shoes. Can you go and buy it for me? So, you know, all the so that the elders have been going by the shoes and bring them back. So all the agency, these people couldn't do anything on their own, you know, so they were they were captured. You know what I mean? Like everything, you have to go and ask permission for everything. So, yeah, it's a lot of power games. Because when they're given birth, is there not a manual of how to raise the kids like a 300 odd paid manual, how you should be a parent? Yeah, there's a 348 page manual on how to discipline your children. So when to hit them, how to hit them, how hard to hit them, what to tell them after you hit them. You know, the child raising manual is really a dark document. They also believe in it's their guidelines on swaddling where you where you're meant to buy the children really tight so they can't move. And if they cry, you you jam a bit of cloths down their mouth to stop them crying. This is one thing that Mark in the in our podcast just said, fuck that, you know, this is really messed up. He found himself doing that. And he thought, whoa, what have I become? You know, what has become of me when I'm doing this? And, you know, he started to wake up and go, no way, man, this is really dark. I've got to get out. How many waves did they have was on multiple waves or was it one wave? No, only one wife. Yeah, so it's not like the Mormons. It's not like the Prayana Bay. It's only one wife. But yeah, so so in that way, it's quite different to that. What about abuse? Was any of the kids being abused in the kids are abused all the time, man, the kids are abused all the time. They're beaten up. They're told the shit. They're told that if they leave the group, the, you know, the discipline is super harsh. Corporal punishment is just is a systemic bashing of children with sticks and systemic mind control of children where they're told that, you know, if they leave, if they have the temerity to leave the group, they're going to die of cancer or they're going to become prostitutes or they get run over by a car or they'll fall into the lake of fire. You know, where sinners go. So the kids, you know, if you hear that from the age you're born, right, you believe it. If that's the only thing you know, then, yeah, you're these kids are terrified. That's why it's hard for people to leave. That's a form of abuse. Yeah. What's the main beliefs? Was it Christ? What was our religion? What was it like? It's a weird mix of Judaism and Christianity, which is weird. So they basically believe in in Yeshua, God, as a God, Yeshua, as they call him. And they essentially believe that they're the one true church in the world. There's no other way to. There's no other path to Christ. There's no other path to salvation and their mission in in in the world is to bring around me. And their mission in life is to bring about the end of the world by raising an army of 144,000 pure male children who will go out at the coming of Armageddon to wage war on Satan. So it's their job to raise this army of pure boy warriors, warrior angels who go out there and battle Satan. And so it's pretty crazy stuff. You know, not all not all of them. And it was, you know, it's like because we're living in a real world, there's people who can actually quite intelligent. Not a lot. Not all of them believed in that, the adults. But like I said before, they. They kind of they made compromises with themselves. They came to arrangements in their own head and they went, OK, I love this part of living here in this community. That part's pretty kooky and fucked up, OK, like the 144,000 children. Soldiers, that's pretty messed up. But, you know, I really like the way that we grow all our own food. And, you know, I like also I like the fact that there's stability and we all know one another. So they make accommodations, you know, that's why that's how it works. See, I think all religions leak a coat. I was raised a Catholic. I've got a crucifix tattooed on my back of Jesus. I don't even know who that man is, what the fuck he looks like. But yeah, I've got some random man on my back. And I think how fucked up was I back in the day like that? At that time, it probably served me as I thought it was a kind of guidance to try and stay sane. But the more I've got older, the more people are into of you. It's all a cult. It's all a movement of manipulating how many people you can manipulate to have a belief in something that's an ideology. It doesn't exist. It's only an idea up here that people are believing into. And listen, if I've got people who are Muslim, I've got people who believe in Christ and they're great people. They're amazing people and they genuinely take the goods from their beliefs and their religion and that's great. But there's a lot of people who are manipulated by it, who then use it for destruction, who then use it for evil. And who says what God is real? What's religion like? There's what five thousand religions are four thousand different gods. Like who the fucks whose right one? Yeah, exactly. Who knows, you know? And yeah, it's great. It's exactly. And I could be wrong. Maybe all these religions are right. Maybe all these gods are right. I just the more I've educated myself over the years and kind of looked into life and trying to understand that. I believe we're all, whether it's a God, we're all got the power to be who we want to be and do what we want in life as long as you're trying to do good. And that's the most important ingredient in life is trying to be better than you were fucking yesterday. But it's sad that that's what I saw from your story, man. It's a heavy story. You know, I was looking at I've been looking at your story. And yeah, it's pretty you've been through some shit. Yeah, but everyone has. Everyone has. It's how they then try and get out of this shit and try and make it smell a bit better because before you fucked up life, we all do mad shit and beat go, we all lose loved ones. We all in dark places at times, but life does go on and it's trying to push through it to then waking up. Same as Mark and Rosalett. They were probably living life at the start. They probably loved life being involved in this cult at some points. But when did they start to realize this ain't normal? What was it? What was the moment they decided the fucking hell we need to get out of here? I think it was when their child, their son started to really like they had to beat him all the time because he was disobedient. He was a normal, naughty, spirited, naughty, naughty young boy. But they found themselves having to hit him all the time to discipline him as per the the the group's beliefs. Right. So I think Mark was telling me, I just it was just wrong, you know, like he he thought, I can't do it anymore. This is really wrong. I don't want to hit my kid anymore. I don't want to tell him given these weird messages about about God. And it didn't stop making sense to them anymore. So they started to see and, you know, at the same time, their family members were trying to contact them all the time, trying to get messages through them saying, man, you know, you guys are it's not this year in a bad place. This group is not looking after your best interests. But, you know, they were separated and cut out from their family. But after a time, I think they just realized that it wasn't working for them. They also they were driven into such a dark, depressing place by the group who made them feel so so like second class that in essence, in a funny way, I think the group actually pushed them out, you know, it was. They they saw that the son wasn't never going to be a part of the group. He was really at 15, the son who'd been beaten up his whole life growing up. They asked the elders, asked him, said, do you want to join now? Do you want to be back when I say join? Do you want to be baptized and become give your life to God with us? Even though it's hard to explain, but what they meant was commit utterly to to to us. And he said, no, you can all go fuck yourselves, you know. And this was in a communal meeting and the elders just fell over in horror, you know, because it's just not the way you talk to them. And then at that stage, they were exiled. They were sent away to a to a farm in the middle of nowhere in rural New South Wales. The New South Wales is a big, fricking place like Australia's a big place. They get it was a middle of nowhere. After being treated like shit like that, you know, and then they were sent out to a bakery to work like 18 hour days in a bakery by themselves. And they just realized after years, look, this group doesn't have my best, you know, they just woke up. They went, no, you know, and Mark just sort of went saw things more clearly, just went, I'm being ripped off. I'm being treated like shit. I'm being taken advantage of. But it wasn't even then it wasn't that easy to leave because because Rose was kind of more into it, you know, she was still a believer. And so they had to stay. Yeah. Sorry, go on. Sorry, you go on. So they had to stage that basically had to stage and escape. You know, when Mark. With the help of some other former members in the group had to. Had to get her out like you'll hear in the podcast, right? And they had to sort of stage an intervention where they said, OK, you're getting out with me. I'm leaving you're coming with me. And it was a pretty confronting time, you know, leaving a group after 13 years, treat her out. She's like, shit, what's on the outside? What's on the outside in the outside world? How am I going to cope? You know, it's very pretty messed up. Yeah, because they're brainwashed to think that outside of their cult, people are evil, people are bad, people harm you. While they're going through all that actually in the cult, like, how is it then they then get out? Because in the other one, the brain obey, they kill them off. Some people were getting killed off or going missing, where they didn't. Oh, well, that's what we've heard. Yeah, you'd be, you know, there are all sorts of stories with this group. They, you know, I've people should listen to that. There are bonus episodes in our, you know, series where I talk to one young American girl who had to throw her weight to plan her escape. She got busted once trying to plan pack of bags and someone walked in and went, why are you packing your bags? And she was like, oh, shit. So then they kept a really strict eye on her. And she had to, you know, all this subterfusion, sort of chicanery and hiding around cat and mouse stuff. She packed all the stuff she got alive together. She made contact with someone outside of sort of family member and said, you've got to help me get out of here, be at this point, be outside the house with your car at just after midnight. I think it was I'm going to throw my bags off the roof of the house where the cult was, where the group was. You grab the bag and I'm just going to run through the house and get out. Because that was the only way she could do it. She basically had to bust out. You know, a lot of these people it's scary, you know, and the thing is that they scare them by. There was a girl there was a girl who was sexually abused, who was while she was in the cult in America. She took it to the police. She left. She said, fuck this, I'm getting out of here. Very brave woman. She went to the cops and said, OK, there's a member of this group, the 12 tribes who has been abusing me for years. When I was a member of the group, I want you to press charges. So the cops went to the group, interviewed the man. Then the cult asked the woman to come back and have a talk. OK, so she drove there and had a talk with the elders and they said, look, what would it take for you to just, you know, drop the charges against us, stop making trouble? You know, just say it never happened. And, you know, they were there was an inference that they were willing to give her certain things, certain hush money. She said no. She drove away. Forty days down the road, her brakes failed and she drove into oncoming traffic. Now, whether whether the cult had anything to do with her death, there's all sorts of chatter that, you know, strange things happen. And there was another guy, a senior member, who got his head cut off with a a tractor in traffic, ran into the back of the his brakes failed again, he ran into the back of a tractor. Yeah, bad things happen to people who speak out against the group. Yeah, that's second, that's some sex shit. How did how did they end up leaving the cult then? What was a what was a process? How did they end up? And how difficult would it have been to actually leave it? It's not it's not like a prison. It's not guarded with guns and yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the weird thing. So who are you? Oh, why don't they just walk out? It's all psychological. It's all in your brain. It's all in your mind and your your spirit is so trapped in. It's like it's, you know, your mind is in a prison. You know, it's wrapped up in barbed wire. So it's very hard for a lot of them to leave. And in Rose and Mark's case. Yeah, like I was saying, they had to basically get help. Mark had to sit behind Rose's back because he wanted to leave and she didn't that he knew was the right thing to do. So and I don't want to spoil it too much for the podcast because it makes the stories pretty amazing. But he organised for someone to come across to New Zealand. They're in New Zealand at the time and help them get out. But it's all I want. I can't I can't explain it all. It's so you've got to listen to the pod. Because I know people, you'll see. Vadios of, say, midges in a in a a jar where they can jump over the jar. But if they put the lid on it and it keeps jumping up after a while, it will stop jumping and then they'll take the lid off. And they're not even jump even as the capability is to jump. But the manipulation tactics of the grooming and it's a pivotal find the mind that can be manipulated. It can be in full power of other people. And that's a sad thing. That's not just in calls. That's in everything in life. Yeah, that's an amazing. That's an amazing story. Amazing. I'd never heard of that experiment. That's fascinating. Yeah, they done it because I think they could they could jump at six feet. Yeah. And then what happens is they put the lid on because when they kept jumping, they'd bang their heads. They just stop. They just stop. So then the lid was off. Yeah. And they don't try it. Yeah, they don't try. Same as if you see videos with horses and they'll pretend to put the the rope round their neck and as if they're holding them. But there's nothing there. Yeah. Horses don't move. And it's exactly the same with with these people. It's exactly the same. To just see a lot of sadness with these people that you see. Yeah, there are a lot of sadness. You know, the saddest thing was families being broken up. You know, when you go in there after a time, you know, you join and it's all like, you know, it's all butterflies and rainbows and it's lovely. And but over time, they say to their new members, look, it's probably better that your family don't come and visit. You know, it's probably better than mum and dad just don't come anymore. You know, like that's and they slowly discouraged their friends from their old life visiting them. They slowly discouraged their sisters, brothers, parents from coming. And after a while, they're isolated. Their friends and family don't contact them anymore. So people can actually go and visit them, though. No, no, not after a while. No, it's it's just it just doesn't happen because you're cut off. You cut off from the world. So what happens is that, oh, God, I know I lost the track of what you asked. But you know, you were talking about people could visit them, their parents and it just get isolated. Yeah, they get isolated as if it's a good place at the start. Yeah, at the start, because they, you know, they the 12 tribes don't want to appear like a cult. So they they want to appear accepting and open. And so, yeah, you know, your family can visit and your parents can come in and have see what a beautiful life they're the group is leading. You know, what a beautiful life it is, you know. And so that over time, yeah, it's kind of like they're just slowly discouraged from doing that. It's probably best if mum and dad, you know, can you not, you know, can you tell them not to come this Saturday? We're kind of busy, you know, and it works like that. And after a while, it's like they're cut off. But doesn't they get the saddest thing I saw? That's right. The saddest thing I ever saw was in Pod. We talk about this woman, this young girl who was raised in the cult. Whose mother. Decided to stay in the cult and she escaped. The daughter escaped, but the mother went, you know, you go, I'm staying here. You know, I believe in this group, you can go. She was willing to give up her own daughter to be with the cult. And so it was really sad. The daughter then was like, why did you why did you give up on me? She didn't talk to her mother for 20 years. So, you know, and I spoke to her and she was crying to say, you know, why didn't why didn't mom choose to do that? She's that group other than me, you know? So, you know, what did I do wrong? You know, that's and that was really sad. The way it broke up families, the way it breaks up families because they've got a big contract for the Australian Olympics to denote for. Yeah, they got a contract. Yeah, they're very successful commercially. They, you know, they're smart, you know, they did the catering. They did a lot of catering for the Olympics and certain venues and, yeah, they're county bunch. Yeah, fucking hell. But why are they still allowed to go then? If it's if it's mass control, because I'm not because it's like, it's like work because it's how do you investigate a group when people join willingly? Yeah, people join willingly, you know, like, you know, and they're allowed to leave it any time. It's like, that's bullshit. They're not. No, it's not as easy as that. Like we've just discussed and. Yeah, and also there's a division, you know, I think the cops are really there, certainly in Australia, really afraid and definitely in America, are really afraid of pursuing a religious group. So it can take a, you know, it's they it's. It's touchy, you know, if you can, you know, there's hints of religious persecution if you go after a religious group. Unless there's it's hard. It's just hard, you know, and, you know, they're trying in Australia. Now they're trying to, there's a whole bunch of ex-members and in the States, actually, former members joining class actions to try and get money back for all the work they put in. So which they, you know, they never received wages. And so they're going to lawyers to try and say, you know, I'm fucking, I want some money back for that. You know, I bought, I broke my back doing that work for you. So anyway, there seems to be some accountability coming in now that, you know, we'll just have to wait and see. Yeah, this is a mad thing because it's a religion. Now we've got different sexes and fucking different races. Like people are just scared to speak out or bring people down because of the backlash, but if they're doing wrong, then fuck them off. Who fucking cares what religion it is, what sex you are. It's just if you're doing wrong, then fucking stop it. Make some changes about it because I had someone on talking about on our killings, young girls being killed because their first kid was a girl. They're not wanting to get married to older men and they're killing them off. And what happens is they're getting lenient sentences because it's their culture, they say, their culture is fucking barbaric. It's weird, so can I fucking mad shit like you can't just use a religion card now, people using the sex card now, people's using what fucking gender you are. And it's just weird if you're doing fucking wrong, you're doing wrong. I'll call it out all day long. I don't give a fuck with anybody says, I believe I've got good intuition and a clean soul where I can see and call out bullshit without. Sometimes you can get it wrong though, and you don't want to upset people. Yeah, it's hard, life's complex, man. But, you know, in Germany, they did the police in Germany really held the group accountable because in Germany, it's illegal to smack your kids. So it's not like that in Australia. But in Germany, you cannot lay a finger on your children, right? And then as we talk about, and again, I don't want to ruin too much of the podcast, but there's a great section in there where we talk to a German documentary maker who went in and put cameras, hidden cameras, all through the German compound, the group's compound in Germany, and filmed them, got filmed, secret footage of them beating up their children, smacking and really abusing, physically abusing their children. He showed the cops and it was amazing. So the authorities then went fuck this and they threw the group out of Germany. It's a great result. Here, it's in Australia. It's a little bit more gray. It's like there's no rule per se about smacking your children, you know, like. So it's all it's all more complex here. They seem to be playing by the rules very carefully. They seem to be very carefully. They seem to be on the fine line where they're doing wrong, but they're not doing enough to go to prison. And that's again, manipulation tactics. Do you believe they're protected? Could they be protected? Yeah, well, this is a lot of money as well. I don't know. This is what we're, you know, there's a bit of work to go on the pod. And we're getting information all the time about different things going on. And it's really. There's some work to be done for us. But yes, we have heard that there's yeah, that there are degrees of protection. Yeah. Yeah, well, you know, you know yourself, Tim, money talks that if there's money to be made, people will keep quiet. How many of these people did you interview? Oh, man, we must have interviewed 50 of them. You know, like over the years, I must have interviewed 50 or 60 of them. You know, we had hundreds of that. All willingly, all willingly, though, or do you think they could have been sent to Pretria? And a positive like, did you have anybody pretend positive? No, no, no, even the people who had stories that were bad said to me, look, you've got to be careful. It wasn't all shit in there. We had some really great times, you know, most of the people I talked to and said who hated the group even said to me, please don't make it really black and white. It's not black and white. Like a lot. We had a lot of great times in there. And that's some really lovely people who had their heart in the right place. You know, we were living in a farm, we were growing our own food. There were lots of beautiful memories. But then at the same time, it's like life in general. But then at the same time, there were all the shit memories and a lot of bad stuff that went down. So, yeah, so it's, um, no, we, we, it's, we try and portray in the pod, the podcast, you know, we try and portray in the podcast. You know, that it's, uh, people did, you know, um, it's, it's not as black and white as it sounds. It's, it's a complex picture of our life in general. How many cults are these around the world like these? These. Oh, God, I don't know that. I'm sure there will be hundreds. You know, I've been contacted by people since this pod came out, you know, must have been 10 different people saying, my God, you should look into this cult. You should look into that group. What about this group? You know, like there's just, it's something about human psychology where you want to be taken care of or you want to submit yourself to a greater power or it's just a common, it's just so common. Well, look at Scientology as well. A lot of big names on that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I watched a documentary on that. I think it was Loot Furu and it was just mad again. You think fucking weird those, but you don't realize that how much brainwashed they've been and from what age, when you see these cults of mothers actually giving up their kids, like what mother, your life, if you have kids as your life, no matter what you die for those kids, you kill for those kids. You don't abandon them. That just shows you how fucking warped their mind was. What was the saddest thing you've seen with this cult? I think that like just families being broken up. You know, I mean, Mark and Rose haven't seen their one of their daughters for like 20 years, 25 years. You know, it's like, they know where they think they know where she is that they're not. She might be. They've got the group has the 12 tribes have a community in Japan. And so they think that she's over there and that she's, they know that she's got a child and that she's married to someone in the group. And so Mark and Rose know they've got a grandchild and they've only seen that. They've seen that grandchild once. Yeah, so. And I'll say that they did things to their own son that they feel very, very guilty about. And they were crying in the podcast just saying, I can't believe I did it. And I feel that great guilt. They carry guilt every day. See the 12 tribes is that named after 12 sons from Israel? Yeah, the 12 tribes in Israel. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So. And there's one in England. Yeah. Yeah. There's one in England near Exeter. How many people's on that? Do you know? Don't know. Don't know. I'd love to come across and do some study on that group there. But I don't know. I've been contacted by English people who are like, you know, how can I help out? You know, I've seen this group in, I think it's Jonathan. And they're, you know, they want to do something about it, but they're not sure what to do. And they suspect some really dark stuff's going on, particularly with the children, but they're not sure what to do. They don't feel confident barging in and trying to, you know. Yeah. But there's a group, I guess. If you want to do something here, I'm more than happy to do something with you as well to expose it and shed light on it. But it can be difficult if there is good things from it. And people actually believe it's the right thing to do. Yeah. It's like life. It's like life. It's really complex. It's not, you know, it's not an easy thing. What if somebody's being approached now? What's their tactics just for anybody that's maybe watching and people are approaching to then maybe see some vulnerability to adjoin these calls? What's the telltale sayings? Well, in, they're still doing it in Sydney, you know, in their farm, just outside Sydney, they go into, you know, they go out every day and they'll send out members to walk down the street and approach people. And I spoke to people, locals there who were like, fuck, you know, this really weird, two really weird guys walked up to me and started talking, talking about their group. And I just got a really weird vibe, you know, in other instances they walk into shops. You know, I spoke to one parent, two parents of a boy, 16 year old boy who was working in a shop in a town near the community. And there are two community members just walked in and started talking to this 16 year old kid and saying, you should join up. It's great. You know, why don't you want to join? And the parents are really pissed off. They're like, fuck that. You know, they came in and tried to intimidate my son into joining. And yeah, so again, I'm just raving. I find it really, you can probably tell, I find it really interesting. And it's just, it's an amazing story. So that's been 20 years you've been uncovering this. Where do you go from? Basically, yeah, since since 2008. Yeah. Where do you go forward with the future of it, Tom? Yeah, there's new material coming out all the time. And you know, we might be making a documentary series about it. It's just, there's, there's always new material. There's always stuff going on in the States. And particularly with this legal case, it might be really good because some of these people might get some recompense, you know, for the work they put in. What about going forward for the future? What's your plans? That's my plans. I just keep working away. You know, I love work. I love being a journal. And yeah, just keep on writing stories. It's always heaps to write about as you would know, man. You know, part of how to look through the people you've talked to. It's fascinating. It's a great job, hey? Yeah, I fucking love it as well. It's obviously can be that tired in some things with the stories, but that's what I'm doing. I'm doing well for it. I love it. I believe I'm great at it. And it's only the beginning to where I can go with it for the future. Where can people watch, listen to the podcast? How can people get in contact with you and stuff if they've got information or kind of want to uncover some dark shit? Like how first of all, where can you watch, listen to the podcast? The podcast is called inside the tribe. So inside the tribe. And it's on everywhere you get your podcast from Apple Spotify. You name it. You'll find it. Just Google it. And in the notes there, there's emails that you can contact me on and feel free to get in touch. Everybody just get in touch with me and tell me what you think. But yeah, inside the tribe. Give it a listen. What about your social media? Does that sound friendly? Whether it's maybe what I get going forward? My Insta is a good question, James. I'll check it out right now. My Instagram is Tim Elliott SMH. So it's T-I-M-E-L-I-O-T-S-M-H. So if you can, you can get in touch with you there. You can get in touch with on my Facebook page, which is hold on a minute. I should know this up by heart, I should know. Which is, so you can edit this out, right, James? No, no. We'll keep an end to it. You're keeping my stupidity. My Facebook is at Tim.Eliot.927. The handle is at Tim Elliott SMH. And yeah, sort of get on to me there. But yeah, if you put all the handles on your, you know, on the show notes on your pod, that would be great if you could. Yeah, we'll put all the links in the description. So if you can send me the links to the podcast for people to watch at. Send me the links to your Facebook and Instagram. We'll leave in the description for anybody that maybe want to come forward. You don't know who's watching this podcast. I've watched all around the world. So you don't know who's actually watching and hopefully you can maybe help them out. For anybody that's maybe watching, you've spoken off people Tim who are struggling in life and who's been in dark moments. What advice would you have for them? There's a great phrase that I always try and keep in mind when I'm feeling really shitty and I'm going through dark times and it's, this too will pass. So this too will pass. Like things will, you might be feeling really bad, but things will get better. You just got to keep on going. And of all the things, of all the advice I've ever been given, that makes the most sense because when you do feel better, you look back and go, oh my God, I thought that I was, I was so low that I'd do something really silly to myself. But, but now look, you know, things did get better. So I just tell myself this too will pass. Tim, for coming on into telling your story, very fascinating and thoroughly enjoyed that. Would you like to finish up on anything, brother? No, I just love to tell people to listen to the poem. We put a lot of work into it. So, you know, it was a lot of work and I'd really appreciate if people gave it a listen and got back to me and got in touch with me and tell me what they thought and gave me any feedback and any tips and leads that they might have. I appreciate it, brother. Enjoy the rest of your week and I'll speak to you soon. No, it was great, James. Thanks for having me on. Thanks, brother.