 Let's welcome our next speaker, Fabio Giovani. Hello. I'm Fabio Giovani with Giovanni Battistagallus. In this presentation, we'll share the experience we had in trying to get the code out of public administration in Italy, in a, let's say, legal and a bit of trolling in the public interest way. We are part of the Hermes Center for Transparency and Digital Human Rights. It's such a volunteer-run NGO in Italy taking care of digital rights and transparency. And one of the projects that we do, we work a lot on whistleblowing technology, and specifically on the Global Leaks Open Source Whistleblowing project. So we found out that a lot of Italian public administration, because they had to comply with the National Anti-Corruption Law, came up with their own development of whistleblowing software. And so we say, hmm, what the hell? We would really love to see the code and see how different it is from our already open source software. And so we went through an interesting path using some legal background. Hi, everybody. I'm very happy to be once again here at Foster, and thank you very much for the organization. We tried, as Fabio said, to avoid reinventing the wheel over and over again. This is typical when public administration develops software. They just reinvent the wheel. Many public administration have the same needs, but for many times they custom-build software for the very same need. Of course with spending lots, spending lots and lots of money. And this wheel is a very costly one. I just put some statistics also for the public sector. That's about 12, I think it's 12 billion euros. And in Italy, only in Italy, the expenditure for licenses for one year, these licenses, the other is in-house software development. But in Italy for licenses is in 2016 was 146 million euros. And lots of this money, I think, is just reinventing the wheel. That's why it's very important the campaign that started, public money, public code. This is a very important campaign because software which is developed and pay with public money has to be shared freely. That's what we think. But we also thought, hey, but there is something interesting in Italy about this campaign and the underlying principle. So there is something really interesting in Italy. We're both Italians so we can make fun of the typical Italian stereotypes. But there is something else interesting in Italy and something you wouldn't have thought about. It's code of digital administration. It's a recent law, quite recent. It has been issued in 2005. It has been modified over and over again, almost never fully applied. So we say, we're not giving it a try. There's a nice piece of legislation we want to use in order to try and get the legal code. Which is the most interesting part? Article 69, the title is Reuse and Open Standards. Oh, well, quite promising. And what does this article say? It says that the public administration, when they develop software which is owned by them, they have the duty. The duty is not just an opportunity. It's the duty to make the source code available. They have the duty to make the source code available or either release in a public repository or give it in free use to other public administrations or to other legal entities. Well, that's kind of interesting. Not only public administrations but also legal entities. We may think about it. There are some exceptions but public security, national defense, electoral process, okay, when we talk about whistleblowing, we don't deal with those exceptions. And it gets even better because it states that the public administration has to be the right holder to provide in the public tenders and in all the specifications that the public administration is the right holder in order to release it as an open source. So you also are provided with a legal tool to do it. And even better, and I think that Riccardo Iaconelli talked about it later, that there will be also a platform and all the open source software developed and released by the public administration will be shared and distributed via other platforms, not only the public repository. This is kind of interesting. This path has been released just last month. So there should be some guidelines which will be published hopefully soon. We will figure it out. So all this is framed into the three-year plan on ICT for public administration which strongly advocates once again for open source. So the release with free and open source. Unfortunately, it talks also about free and open source software, but the focus is on open source, not only free software. Hang on. Then this is the nice part. Hermes Center is a legal entity. So when it comes to Article 69, maybe we can give it a try. This was Fabio's idea. Every time Fabio starts telling me what if we do that, I have always three options. First, it is blatantly legal. Second, it is mildly legal. Third, it's pure genius, or there is another option which is a combination of the three options. So this time, strange enough, I agreed with him. So I will let him tell how we try this legal hack. So we try to exploit the existing laws. I'm not a lawyer. Giovanni is the lawyer. So whatever I ask to Giovanni, my own Sunday legal, juridical interpretation of law. And first of all, you need to know that in Italy, let's say the previous update of the digital administration code delivered this reuse catalog. That's really a catalog with the brochure and the technical specification of the software that different public agencies decided to put in reuse. There's no code there. There are only the brochure and the contact that you need to get in touch with them in order to get the code. And they say, oh, it doesn't look good. I mean, the laws say something quite different. Let's try to get this code. So at first, I really, really tried to get in touch of the people we know. And we found out that there's a resistance by the provider that developed the software on behalf of the public administration to have the software to be really available in open source. First try, we tried with Naples and probably trying with the, not with the right law, but at least the first attempt on using the newly available freedom of information law. The Naples municipality developed their own in-house whistleblowing software. They even published in the public catalog and say, oh, lovely. Let's see this, an internal whistleblowing system. They also write it's open source release, but there's no code online. There's no open source, only a nice PDF and brochure. And so we tried to use the recently available freedom of information law. And so at first, I sent a FOIA request asking for the source code. And the Naples municipality formally rejected the request saying, no, no, this is not a document that's subject to the freedom of information law. But luckily enough. And they were right. Yeah, and they were right. Oh, they tried. Then there's a sentence from the Rome administrative score that say that the source code implementing an algorithm is an administrative document. So it should be subject to the FOIA law. So we made an appeal to the anti-corruption officer and the transparency officer saying, no, no, look at this court. I mean, you really need to give us the code that you are supposed to give in reuse. And they spent seven pages of very well legally written document to explain, no, no, no, you are not right. We reject, we are not going to give you the code because the software doesn't contain an autonomous algorithm like said by the court, and especially the digital administration court in their own interpretation, or you were saying a previous edition of the digital administration code say that we had to make a memorandum of understanding. So by the way, we will not give you the code. The only chance we had were to go to the regional administrative court but it were costing too much. There's a link with all of the document and then in the slide published. Second try, so we try with Venice. A lot of more fun with Venice, I have to say, because we try to use the recent digital administration code because of the article 69.1, the one we previously said, that the public agency had the duty to publish the code in a public repository under a free license. The nice thing is that the Venice municipality own a software development company that developed the software for themselves and made a whistleblowing software. Funny enough, the CAO of the Venice software company that's called Venice, were also the former CAO of the Italian agency for digitalization. And they announced that they whistleblowing software but were not available in the reuse catalog. Okay, we know that the reuse catalog is going to die. But basically they made a big marketing stunt and they even won awards as a virtuous public agency making such an anti-corruption software that's available to all of the other public administration. They got reviewed by anti-corruption NGOs and say, yeah, that's a very nice example of how anti-corruption technologies should be done. Still, again, where is the code? So, we started our path. On September, I mean, I just tried to write them as a private citizen, as a technology enthusiast and say, hey, what a lovely initiative. You also got all these fantastic prizes. Can you please share with me the code? I got a call. I'm sorry, yeah, we can't give you because you're a private person and you're not entitled to get it. You say, okay. Then, like Giovanni will say, ah, Hermes Center, it's a juridical entity that's by the article 69.1. Can ask this code. So, we made, again, this request after 30 days. No answer. He said, hmm, what the hell. So, we made a solicit always by registered email that's this funny thing that we have in Italy that is called PEC, that we only have in Italy a registered email with a private circuit and we say to them, you really need to answer us because now we are going to share that you are not compared with the law with the Parliamentary Inquiry Commission of Digital Innovation in Public Agencies because, luckily enough, on Facebook, there are all these MP-free and lay people and also with the digital agency for Italy. Clearly stating that we will make a big media campaign. In the meantime, because we realize that the use of this reuse approach in the catalogue, it's often an excuse to, I mean, advertise that you have the technology without giving it for free. The other public agency needs to approach you and ask you and then you're going to invoice them some consulting in order to install the software because it's not public. Well, so, well, they answered our inquiry and they asked us, can you please sign this contract, like a 10-page contract? Well, we know that the Digital Administration Code say that they just need to public the code in a public repository. Isn't that expected that the license is a contract? So some consideration in it. We just didn't sign the contract and we got in touch with the digital, the AGID, with the agency for Digital Italy right into the Strategic Committee and asking some very specific inquiry. And some comments about the contracts, just remembering that kind of, trying to remember the D'Amelloye. There was a license, also in the contract, but it was not an open license. It was not clear. And actually, the law doesn't state what an open license is. Our Code for Digital Administration defines open data, defines open formats, doesn't tell us what an open license is. So that's the chain issue. Source code is provided, but there is no mention for the for-freedom, so we don't know what we can do with the source code. We can do, we know because it was stated in the contract that there was the right to modification, but we didn't know if we had the right of distribution. So once again, we didn't know how we can, maybe we can use internally or use in other ways, but not distribute again. And the funniest part, there was an NDA. Well, this is really nice because we all understand that if we have the source code, you really need an NDA. So it's pretty peculiar when it comes to open licenses. So, funny enough, in December they also wrote to the FOIA request because we asked each and all of the contract and invoice and technical offer that they maybe have done to someone reusing this code. And yes, it happened that effectively other public agencies approached them in order to reuse the code and they send invoices for like 2,500 euro first year and 1,500 euro sixth year. So basically for the code reuse for which they even got a word of price, they invoiced more than 25,000 euro. And so this is the kind of, I mean, disclosure we have done now. Just I would really love to make a consideration that this is just the beginning because the existing law, regardless of the very good job that the team for digital transformation and all of the MP are doing, doesn't give sanction and there's no authority that have the power to enforce that a public agency is effectively releasing the code outside. So there is a lot of civic hacking that need to happen in order to disclose the public agencies that are not respecting the law because no one is expected to vigilant on them and apply them a sanction. So we have no incentive to effectively do reuse. Yes. So to sum it up, what next? Because we still haven't the code. We still, maybe, I don't know if you send the signed contract but we'll figure it out. So what will we do and what we urge you to do? Keep on asking the code. Just check in the catalogs and ask for the code. And then we may even think about legal enforcement on compliance but this is always a tricky issue also because the law is quite new and the litigation is kind of expensive. And then the guidelines will come out. They talked about them yesterday. Then we will have to monitor the guidelines and see if they are compliant with the free and open source software principle. And one thing you can all do is just spread the word of the Italian law and maybe using it also in other countries because the principle that a publicly funded software has to be released and a free and open license it is a very important principle and so I think it's really worth for every one of us to try and spread the word. And that's it, I think. Do we want to add something? Just that whatever kind of policy advocacy is being done it's important that there is an enforcement. Otherwise whatever country adopts similar policy you end up in a situation like in Italy when there are very good policy, very well written just that nobody applies because there is no enforcement of it. That's it. Tell us when we stop. I don't know if he or she has suggested to them both to go. Otherwise I don't get to go. Quite. How did it happen? Historically the first paragraph of Article 61 was modified in 2016 and was suggested by several activists and several free software enthusiasts and I think they didn't understand what they were not the activists, the people who approved it didn't understand what they were doing. The last part is the modification done or written mostly by the lawyer the digital transformation team. The last part I think is from them. So it's a very good principle I don't know if they really understood what they were going to and if they were going to apply them. No, it's not really the latest update of the digital administration code also mandate that the code must be published on a collaborative platform and in accordance with some technical guidelines that will be released in this month and will be subject to public consultation. So what will be achieved in a couple of months time is that we will have a good legal framework and also technical and operational guidelines to make public code reused in a good way. There is still not enforcement available but at least the digital transformation team is using their strong moral persuasion on the central public agencies and they are achieving good results. Obviously we know that the peripheral public agency I mean, let's say they have an officer that really loves this open approach are unlikely to adopt those. More questions? So in France it seems that there's even a best situation because with the FOIA law there has been a prior experience in getting tax software that's part of our algorithmic implementation and so FOIA law can be used and it's being used to get the code. So in France really I think it's going to have a lot of fun. It just made a point that it is not so simple in many times because of customization and other issues to share the code. I make a comment on it, you're right, but in many other cases it may be simple. In many other cases this software may solve problems for many other public administrations and in any case even when you release it you never know how they are going to use it. So you have to foster also this kind of, I would say serendipity, you don't know if people may find it useful but maybe people would reuse it. So I think that it's worth each and every time.