 Good morning, and welcome to the 29th meeting of the committee in 2015. Everyone present is asked to switch off mobile phones and other electronic equipment as they affect the broadcasting system. Some committee members may consult tablets during the meeting, because we provide papers in a digital format. We have received apologies today from Kara Hilton. Our first item of business this morning is to take evidence on the burial and cremation Scotland bill as part one of our stage 1 consideration. I welcome Andrew Brown representing the National Association of Funeral Directors, Tim Morris representing the Institute of Cemetery and Cremation Management, Rick Powell representing the Federation of Burial and Cremation Authorities and Robert Swanson, the Inspector of Crematorious Scotland. Do any of you want to make an opening statement, Mr Brown? Good morning. I'm Andrew Brown. I'm the North Sector Operations Manager for Co-op Funeral Care. I have responsibility for 124 funeral homes across Scotland and 20 in Northern Ireland. I'm here today representing the National Association of Funeral Directors, of which the co-op is the largest member in Scotland. Any FD have 85 members in Scotland operating 369 funeral homes. Across the UK, over 80 per cent of all funerals are conducted by our members. The association ensures that its members set the highest standard of customer care in the industry through a robust code of practice, code of professional standards and an independent arbitration scheme. The Any FD welcomes the Burial and Cremation Scotland bill as it seeks to update and rationalise some outdated legislation. In responding to the questions raised by the committee, the Any FD have taken what we believe to be the best interests of bereaved families. We serve into consideration, along with the implications on our members' businesses. The questions around re-use of layers and headstones and the proximity of housing and highways to Crematoria do not directly affect funeral directors in the same way as Burial and Cremation authorities, but those proposals could impact on the clients that we serve. The biggest impact on our members and our primary concern about which the committee seeks feedback is on the inspection and licensing of funeral directors. If statutory regulation is to be introduced, the Any FD stands ready to advise and assist. However, we would urge the Government to fully utilise the association's existing and well-established codes and standards rather than seeking to define and introduce a new set of codes and standards that would run in parallel to our own. One of our concerns is about potential cost implications for the funeral businesses, which could in turn lead to increases in funeral costs and exacerbating issues of funeral poverty, which the Scottish Government is already exploring. Does anyone else wish to give a Mr Pell? Good morning. I would like to thank you for inviting the Federation of Burial and Cremation Authorities to provide oral evidence to the committee in respect to the proposed Burial and Cremation Scotland Bill. The FPCA represents the owners and operators of cemeteries and crematoria across the whole of the UK and currently represents 26 of the 28 operational crematoria in Scotland and a further crematoria that is currently under development. The FPCA executive and technical committees have discussed the bill at length. In addition, a special meeting of representatives of the FPCA's Scottish sub-committee was convened on 16 November to facilitate detailed discussions prior to the views being submitted. The FPCA agrees that the existing legislation relating to burial and cremation should be repealed and replaced by a new legislative framework, and that should apply to all cemeteries and crematoria in Scotland. The call for written evidence asks for particular consideration to be given to a series of points, and as you will no doubt have had the opportunity to read through our submission, I will not go through it again at this point. However, I must emphasise how uncomfortable our organisation is around the potential removal of the 200-yard minimum distance requirement that currently exists when crematoria is built in the vicinity of private dwellings. I must stress that the FPCA disagrees most strongly with its particular proposal. In addition, the FPCA strongly recommends the retention of the current provisions that exist to ensure that there is a minimum distance requirement for the location of new crematoria also in relation to highways. The FPCA firmly believes that the positioning of crematoria is of vital importance in order that the bereaved families are not subject to the day-to-day activities that take place in residential areas and their gardens. When attending a funeral service or visiting the crematorium, the bereaved are entitled to expect to be able to spend time in peaceful and meaningful contemplation. The routine of daily living including parties in the gardens, barbecues and a company in music did not in any way fit with the tranquil setting that we have come to expect in this type of location. There are numerous examples where planning authorities have allowed private housing and highway developments to take place in very close proximity to crematoria facilities. This has detracted from the natural beauty of many of these locations and had a negative impact upon the ambience of the setting for these important facilities. Rather than removing the 200-yard and 50-yard rules, the FPCA would much rather see action taken by legislators to protect these vital locations and prevent subsequent developments literally up to the cartilage of the crematoria grounds, therefore protecting the setting for the bereaved families that we try to serve. In conclusion, on behalf of the Federation members, I would like to thank you again for the opportunity to give evidence to the committee this morning. Thank you, Mr Morris or Mr Swanson. Thank you for inviting the Institute to attend today. The Institute represents burial and cremation authorities throughout the UK and provides education and training opportunities to those persons working within those services. The Institute welcomes the actions of the Scottish Government in modernising burial and cremation and associated legislation and its attempts to reduce the burden of funeral poverty. The Institute would wish to positively assist the Scottish Government in achieving its objectives. Mr Swanson, do you have anything to add? Yes, good morning and thanks for the invite as well. My appointment as the chairman's spectre crematoria for Scotland came about as the right result following on from the Lord Bonomy report, as you'll be aware. I took up that post in March of this year. Since then, I've been around all 28 crematoria in Scotland. It's an opportunity for the management and the staff there to demonstrate to me all their working practices. I've done that and I'm currently now going round them again, doing more formal inspections. My appointment, there was provision within the existing legislation for that. However, there was no detail at all about what the role would entail and there was no powers associated and attached to it. The job description in which we gave was therefore decided on in advance of my appointment and it was basically to ensure that the relevant legislation and best practice was being put in place around all 28 crematoria, ensuring the documents and records that were in accordance with statutory provisions, being a member of national committee and some other committees, and also to deal with any complaints that are coming in from either from the members of the public or professional bodies. Again, in the short space of time that I've been in post, I have dealt with a few of those as well. That's a brief resume on it. It's a practical side that I can speak to here and my own experience and knowledge of what I have witnessed and gone round all 28. I start by asking why you think that there's a need for the bill and what are the issues that are currently faced by the industry that needs to be addressed. Mr Brown, please. I think that the need for the bill is generally due to the outdated nature of the existing legislation that's in place. There's also a need for many of the things, which I'm not sure if the committee is interested in, but there's a need for recommendations from Lord Bonamy's report. NEFD would definitely support many of the changes that are being made in the bill as a result of that. You'll be aware that the Health and Sport Committee are looking at many of the aspects of that part of the bill. Mr Morris. I agree that the legislation does need modernising in order to set the rights and responsibilities the rights of the bereaved and the responsibilities of burial and cremation authorities for delivering modern services. I agree with both Andrew and Tim. The legislation is very outdated, unfortunately, these days. The cremation regulations go back to 1935, although there have been one or two amendments since then, and a burial regulation is obviously going back much, much further than that. It really is important to ensure that the legislation that we're working to is very much current and recognises the issues that face the industry at the moment, and some of those might be around reuse of graved layers or obviously bringing the control and regulation of crematoria into the current century. Thank you. Mr Swanson, please. Like others, the legislation itself is very much outdated and needs to be brought up to date. Also, I think that the opportunity was there now in light of the findings of the Lord Bonomy and the Dame Eilish inquiry before that that had to be taken cognisance of and which, in fact, would not have been brought to the fore had it not been for those investigations. There has also been some comments made to me regarding the non-regulation of certain aspects of the funeral industry, which is felt and needs to be addressed as well. You've all suggested that it's required because the current legislation is outdated. Can I ask you what, to what extent you think, the current bill is future-proofed? Mr Swanson. Certainly from my perspective, it is a new role and it is an opportunity there, and if supported by legislation for the role in which I and perhaps any other inspectors would take on, there is a void at the moment where we have the Institute and the Federation here, but we don't have anybody here who is physically going round each of them to look at the detail, what is happening in more close detail, the opportunity for the expansion of the inspectors in each of the respective areas would provide that. I myself have been welcomed by the Crematoria around Scotland. It's not that we're seen as being a big brother coming in to see what is happening. They welcome the opportunity and I get favourable feedback from them, and likewise it's my understanding that there is a support for a similar role in the respective areas concerning burial and for the funeral directors. Mr Powell. I'd agree with Bert. Obviously, the other issues that the bill covers are, as I mentioned just now, the reuse of layers bearing in mind the shortage of burial land that may be facing burial authorities. I think the bill also future-proofs the potential alternatives to cremation in the future, whether that may be something along the lines of permission or resumation. The bill is written in such a way that there's a possibility to actually bring those into legislation as and when necessary. Mr Morris. The new legislation will give the opportunity to make regulation beneath it, which would ensure operation and management of cemeteries and crematoria is standardised across all authorities. The introduction of bringing back into reuse old abandoned layers will help in some way in reducing funeral poverty as it will alleviate the need for building new cemeteries. The capital cost of that and the additional maintenance costs, which in effect will reduce the pressure to increase fees. It should be remembered that most burial services are subsidised at the present time. Regulation of the whole of the industry will bring a standard and provide reassurance to bereaved people. I don't think that I have anything to add in over and above what has already been said. Mr Swanson, an earlier response said that there should be more regulation. Do you think that the bill actually takes forward the level of regulation that you see being required, as convener mentioned earlier, to try and future-proof the situation? The last time at any major amendments to the legislation was in 1935. Do we have something that's coming forward on this bill that will be future-proofed and will actually encapsulate everything that we would want to encapsulate that would take us into the future? Yes, I do believe that to be the case. There's been a lot has gone on in the past few months regarding the codes of practice, etc. All of that is given the crematory at the moment, the opportunity to put these matters in place. I can say that they all do, they all wholeheartedly do, but for anything that is guidelines or if it's offered to somebody, they have an option to comply with it or not. That's probably the difference here. As I go round and look at the various practices that have been put in place, that ranges from the identity card system, cremation card system, the ashes and all the rest of it, it should not differ all that greatly. Every single one of the crematory, a coffin arrives at one end and there's ashes at the other. It's that bit in between, and there is a variance across it. When I speak to some of them about their working practice to say this is the way we've done it, we've done it for 20 odd years, there's never been an issue. Why should we change to somebody else? I think they are very receptive to it, but the point I make is that there is a difference, a strong difference between guidelines and legislation, and if you don't have the teeth to back it up and say you will do it and if you don't do it, there is potentially a penalty. I don't think, in all honesty, it's not my experience that that would ever be needed to be the case. Anyone else wish to come in at that point? If that's the case, then the problem or part of the problem may have been that we have legislation and this legislation that's going through at the present moment may end up in guidance being issued to operators. Mr Swanson, you've indicated that you'd rather see things in legislation rather than in guidance to try and get that conformity throughout Scotland in relation to what you and your role would like to see happening in crematoria and cemeteries throughout Scotland, so do you think that everything that is currently in the bill satisfies your issue about legislation rather than guidance being issued? Mr Swanson, I would say certainly in an ideal world there should be no need for legislation, everybody should be compliant in doing things, but we all know that not to be the case. It's the same in the outside world here, in my previous occupations and police service. People shouldn't hit each other but we have a criminal charge, we have legislation which prohibits and forbids them from doing that and more importantly we have a penalty for that, so in an ideal world we shouldn't need it but if there is guidance which has been prepared and produced and disseminated as a result of it being a legislative requirement I think that that has to be a better option. I'd agree that guidance does provide some reassurance on future proofing, it's much easier to review some guidance should there be any change in circumstances or wants and needs of bereaved people where a change is warranted. Anyone else? Mr Powell? All I'd say really is in relation to Mr Swanson's comments that I think what he may have seen is sort of adjustments of protocols if you like, which are probably in reaction to events. The important thing obviously as Mr Swanson has said is that a body arrives at the crematorium and ashes are created at the other end of the process. All of the issues in between such as identification, proper handling of the body, the following of the code of cremation practice are addressed by each of the crematoria but the recording of say the details on a card that follows those remains through may be slightly different from one crematorian to another and that may be a reaction to perhaps a problem that they've had in the past. So there may not be identical practices at each crematorian but it doesn't necessarily mean that the practices are faulty. Okay John. Mr Morris, in relation to the comments made by Mr Powell, what advice does your mother institute give to your members in relation to some of the issues that have arisen on some of the issues that we may face in the future because clearly as the institute you have some role in training and advising your members in good practice. So is there any lessons that the institute has learnt from the process? Well really I sort of agree with Rick that the standard process is in between the arrival of the coffin and the giving over of the ashes are basically standard throughout all UK crematoria. There are just slightly different administrative just administrative differences which again some are adapted in light of any problems that have been identified but the standard processes are pretty much the same. Thank you. In terms of you've talked about the coffin coming in, you've talked about the ashes at the end and the differences in between but I want to concentrate on the end process if you like. We have had a submission which suggests that the current container that is used in the UK is almost standard at 3.2 litres to contain ashes. It's been suggested that that isn't large enough to deal with a larger person or maybe a person who has been cremated in an eco coffin and they believe that the container should be increased up to five litres as found in most of Europe and America. Do you have a view in that Mr Swanson first of all please? The only experience I have in any comments regarding that is that I have been told that there have been a very few occasions when in fact the ashes have exceeded the quantity that can be held in the current one. In cases of that they've put them into a second urn so the person has two urns instead of just one. That's what I've been told that I haven't witnessed at first hand. To me there would be very few occasions when this would appear to be the case. I accept that yes they're all commenting that there is more outsized coffins coming in and as my understanding it's not the actual body that's producing any of the extra, it's perhaps the vessel in which the body is contained within that can be the resultant for the large amount of ashes. To me it's not come over as being an issue on my travels and the few occasions it has been mentioned they don't see anything wrong and put in any extra into a second urn. The funeral furnishing manufacturing associations have said that if a cremation uses an alternative or eco coffin the ashes increased by a factor. Following the research by InterTech the FFMA has commissioned these factors can now be clearly understood. The effects and amount of ashes vary by the height of the person, the weight of the person and the type of coffin. They've supplied an Excel file to show what they were saying there. Would it not be easier do you think Mr Swanson to move to that five litre urn rather than sit to the 3.2 so that all of the ashes from a cremation can be kept in one container and there can be no debiety about anything? I mean I would agree that anything which is going to be less of a disturbing factor to a family and I can accept that to hand over two urns with ashes probably is not good at all. I do know that the size and weight is sometimes an issue and there is an element of uncomfortableness in speaking to where a large coffin has arrived, an outsized coffin with the fact that how you physically handle it is the same from the health and safety side about asking the funeral directors to give them a weight of the coffin because how are we going to handle it at the other side and what we do with it and that's for cremation I appreciate the burial is different and there is the element of embarrassment there if what people try and do is to lessen the impact that's going to have on the bereaved so in other words rather than have six or eight people struggling with a big coffin to come in during a service recommend that the coffin is in place before the people arrive so that they actually don't see that physical side of things so anything at all which helps to reduce it I accept that there would be a lot of costs incurred involved in changing from a 3.2 to a 5 but perhaps as long as they had a few fives in store for the few occasions it was required that would suffice rather than changing it altogether thank you any of you other gentlemen wish to come in at that point mr power please if I may yes I mean the the guidance around 3.2 litres is a minimum guidance that's not an absolute and and it is in a case of no other container shall be used the two main suppliers of what are called polyeons which are the polythene plastic earns that are used for the delivery of of ashes back to funeral directors or back to families after the cremation process the two main suppliers are those at the moment that they are supplying I think in 4.2 and 4.5 litre containers the actual number of occurrences I think where more than one of those containers is used is very very rare it really in a lot of cases where where remains or ashes are going to be buried or whatever else the funeral director will actually supply a casket directly to the crematorium rather than the container actually supplied by the crematorium being used so it really and I mean interestingly enough to both both mr Morris's organisation and my organisation are working quite closely with the funeral furnishing manufacturers association at the moment to draw up guidelines protocols and a testing protocol and acceptable results to those protocols to actually move forward with the with the suitability of coffins for cremation making sure that they are actually fit for purpose thank you anyone else mr Morris yeah let's just echo what rick has just just said that there are instances very few where more than one container might be required and we found that those instances are generally with the eco type coffins for example there is a a cardboard coffin that's available that has a high china clay content which gives it strength and rigidity that coffin when cremated produces two or more standard urns of ashes with the ffm a research research into ash residue from certain types of all types of coffins then perhaps cremational authorities and funeral directors could be alerted to those coffins that produce more than the normal amount of ash and perhaps on those occasions a larger container can be supplied by the funeral director or crematorium it doesn't need to be supplied in all cases just a separate stock of larger urns which would be acceptable to those brief families that choose those types of coffee mr Brown do you have anything to add just to reiterate what rick had said about often funeral directors will supply an alternative to the crematorium supplied urn or other receptacle and there's a vast array of sizes available to us and i don't believe it would be correct to automatically increase the size for every set of ashes being returned to families in the same way as we as funeral directors wouldn't supply a large coffin to everybody for their loved one just because some people would require that every family there are a variety of options they have with the the ashes once they're returned to them so i don't think it would be appropriate to to supply a large container to everybody just because of the very occasional issue with it thank you Cameron Buchanan please thank you very much good morning can i just return to go back to mr brown when he said in his submission the na na fd does not support the reuse of layers but does support the reclaiming of unused layers how would you define unused layers i mean obviously but the reclaiming of them is there a time limit or would you say how do you work that out i just couldn't quite follow that we support the reuse as set out in the bill of unused layers layers that have been sold to a family but there's never been an internment taking place in that layer what we're opposed to is the reuse of layers which would involve exhumation deepening the layer and reinterring the exhumed remains does that happen very often it currently doesn't happen but that's that's what the proposals are about how would you define an unused layer one that has not been used for a long period of time one that's not been used at all right so in some cases a family will purchase four or five layers in a cemetery but they may not use all of those layers if that layer has gone for the period of time in the bill which i believe is 75 years if it's gone for that period of time unused we would certainly support the reuse of that by selling that layer to another family to allow them to to utilise that cemetery and do you think that that should be a legislation then we should legislate on that that's contained within the that's right the bill but what we are opposed to is the reuse of layers where there have been internments i see that thank you very much okay anyone else want to come in on that point that's just made mr morris mr morris please yeah the the reclamation of unused layers should be included in the bill but that doesn't uh wouldn't transform cemeteries into sustainable assets the legislation should include the reuse of layers that have been abandoned and abandonment can be proven through proper notification processes written into legislation and those layers reused where remains are are disturbed reburied in the same layer at a greater depth and the legislation therefore covers the rights of any families that come forward and object and if they do their layer wouldn't be reused and also protects protects the remains the remains would be reintered in the same grave which would keep the cemetery records and registers intact and those deceased persons would be traceable in the future so the institute is concerned with the sustainability of cemeteries for the future whilst reclaiming unused layers just goes some way it doesn't make cemeteries completely sustainable what would you do with the headstones in these circumstances i think that the conservation management plan should be in place before an authority reuses layers and this would identify the areas of the cemetery that had historic cultural importance and would remove them from any any reuse restoration process and it would only be those less significant areas where an impact on heritage history and the the cemetery landscape wouldn't be affected that doesn't really answer my question mr morris what would happen with the headstones in these circumstances and any that were were not of historic importance could be removed um how does that help in terms of the records that you talked about because obviously the headstone itself is a record a photographic record could be kept of of headstones that are of insignificant importance okay and the industry thinks that that's acceptable yeah for those in significant more okay gem baxter please you convener um my question is to a discussion about two questions ago and i'm interested in the relationship between funeral directors and crematorium management i was mentioned earlier that there might be some liaison about the size of coffins is that a regular occurrence to the two sides of the equation work together commonly or is that only if there's an exception of what sort of relationship exists between the two parts of the sector who's mr brown mr brown please um the the there's a constant relationship between funeral directors and crematoria um there really only is an issue when we're dealing with larger coffins and in those circumstances we would laze with the local crematorium management um and we would perhaps look as i think robert suggested we would perhaps look to make arrangements for the the coffin to be in place in the crematorium before the family arrived for for dignity reasons um but we would also be speaking to the the crematory about any manual handling issues and also issues in terms of the length of time that the cremation may take and that kind of things it may be appropriate for us to book a an earlier time slot and we would laze on a regular basis with crematoria about that that's what the matter anyone else want to come in on that one mr palmer yes i mean as andre's just said there is constantly a zone between the funeral directors and and the management staff at the crematorium there would be an expectation normally that the funeral directors would complete a preliminary form which would be submitted to the crematorium which will ask all sorts of questions around that that are not part of the statutory application maybe around music at the service it may be all sorts of different things and one of those things will normally be around the size of the coffin because there are physical restraints whether it be because of the size of the opening in the catafolk from the chapel through to the crematorium or the crematory area and physically the size that of coffin that a cremator will accept i mean there are cremators in existence in in uk and in scotland that will take a maximum i think 41 inch coffin there are others it will will because of a different manufacturer and it may be an older machine that won't take a coffin that's anywhere near that size so those sorts of liaisons take place constantly on a daily basis and there'll be telephone conversations between the crematorian and the funeral directors to make sure that there is absolutely no misunderstanding about any of those details okay mr swad sir please you know you talk there about the size and yes that is is clearly the case and most of the crematoria that are undergoing refurbishment at the moment they are always going for the the larger cremator generally up to 41 inches wide of the coffin the width of the coffin and that is sort of standardly known what is not known so often is the actual combined weight of the body and the coffin which is going to arrive sometimes that is is given but not always and indeed from the funeral director's side quite often they don't have the provision to actually weigh it so they're not able to give that answer and likewise at the crematoria they don't have at present a weighing facility that would take this and there's my understanding from the staff there that that also helps them assess how long things are going to take they know how long you know a normal average body is going to take and what time of day is best place to to put that through so a bigger one is clearly going to take longer and there is health and safety implications as well as the handling all the way through but of more concern around the country which has been brought to my attention is this crematoria not knowing that any items that have been left in the coffin now usually what happens here is that it's people saying the last farewell to someone and they're afforded that in privacy quite often it would appear that what's happening is that things are being placed in the coffin which are innocent things like photographs but as I understand it it's not the photograph it's in a glass fronted frame and glass appears to be a major problem I don't know the technical side of this other than the the practical experience and the feedback I get is that the in effect the glass the solves and the glass can can affects itself to the brickwork inside which then means it's present for the next cremation and then of course it is liable to stick to further ashes and there is practical issues the sum of it there is more worse than that if a battery for instance is left I'm aware of like a mobile phone having been placed in a coffin or what appeared to be a mobile phone from anabatra of course then exploded which of course can cause damage now the crematoria clearly are governed by the emissions through sepa which is coming out the if they actually breach any of the regulations as to what's coming out of the the chimney in effect the crematoria say well we didn't know that but we're the person that's been penalised for that not the funeral director the funeral director is giving an assurance that to the best of their knowledge there is no any effect forbidden items within that coffin but that is more of a major issue to me that I'm hearing around the country than the size and it's something that perhaps by working closer with the funeral directors that this can be perhaps a lesson shall we say Jane please that's really helpful thanks everybody it seems to me then it being a funeral director is a highly skilled role requires a lot of sensitivity and communication skills so how is the registration regulation of our funeral directors managed is it compulsory to be registered or how is it regulated as a training do people have to to qualify how does all that work is it a requirement to be qualified mr brian first please there currently is no legal requirement as i said in my opening statement the national association of funeral directors represents in in scotland anyway 369 funeral homes and in excess of 80 percent of funnels conducted are conducted by any ffd members we have a code of practice and we have a professional standards board and we have a number of requirements for membership which include training and it includes the we employ four standards and quality managers who inspect each of the members premises on a biennial basis so that they're inspecting the premises for the front of house and back of house facilities mortuary and bombing facilities as well as ensuring that we're adhering with codes of practice in terms of the financial aspects for families and voice and providing estimates and that kind of thing and there are at least one other trade association which many funeral directors are members of but for those who are not members of trade associations there are no regulations in place are any of those standards enforceable are they voluntary standards do you remember is there any sanctions if your inspectors find that there's been a problem there are sanctions which could be a fine or leading up to expulsion from the national association if you're not the directors i'm working this through them but they could be expelled and still trade as a still seek get employment or be be a funeral director in another setting it's only it's a voluntary a voluntary scheme yes yes we would just cease to be a member of our association okay thank you thank you jen will i coffee please thanks our nurse convener i wonder if i could ask the panel again to tell me a wee bit more about the views about this 200-yard relaxation mr pal you gave a few examples of your concerns about that i mean the proposal in the bill is to remove that restriction and 200 yards does seem a long distance but could you give us a couple of examples of where that may actually have taken place and what kind of impact that sort of thing does have and is there any kind of limit that you would be happy with relaxing it down from 200 yards to say 100 or 150 do you have a view on that or does it does it have to be 200 yards in your view mr pal thank you um what you asked if if i could give you an example i think a classic example is unfortunately in edinburgh um if at morton hall crematorium where uh the building of housing has been allowed to come right up to the grounds there and in fact gardens are somewhere in the region of 25 to 35 30 yards away from the walkway through the the memorial garden now on a sunday afternoon as i said you know when families are having barbecues generally doing the things that they do in a in a garden on a sunday afternoon that really doesn't fit with the peace and tranquillity that that one would expect when visiting you know and visiting to remember a loved one and sit in peace and and and think your thoughts um it's it's a very unfortunate situation and i think it displays unfortunately uh the fact that that i mean forgive me for saying it but but local authority planning has not really managed that particularly well um the suggestion in the bill is that the that the location of of crematoria and and what happens around them should be very much in the hands of local authority planners and i think you know that's an example and there are there are others within the country where exactly the same has happened um as i mentioned in in the sort of opening words air view is that really we would much rather see that that area protected uh for for the life of the crematorium not not if you like set at the the building of the crematorium and then developments allowed to to encroach right up to the to the boundary in effect uh really to to to destroy that that setting and and that feeling of of tranquillity and peace and all the other things that the families should be allowed not only at the time of the funeral as i say but when they come back to spend time in the gardens you know in remembrance why i mean on the 200 excel flow is is it a must be 200 yards a new review or is it 100 acceptable 150 or something like that i mean clearly there's pressure on on development space and space for the crematoria and so on and so forth and that's what this issue i think touches on it is there any acceptable uh reduction in that distance the new reviewer does it have to be that kind of distance i mean i don't think anyone is is being silly and say it's got to be exactly perhaps 200 yards but i mean i think one of the when you look at the suggestion in the bill and combine that with one other point where it talks about a crematorium being classified as a building that contains the the equipment to carry out the cremation in other words that's just the crematory not the not the buildings that are ancillary to that in other words the chapel the book of remembrance room and all the other things that normally go with a crematorium it's talking about just the crematory being classed as a crematorium now in theory that means that a crematory could be could be created anywhere in the middle of a of a an industrial estate you know and and there are all sorts of things that we are extremely concerned about that may well destroy the current i suppose dignity and and setting that we expect or that the public expect to have associated with a crematorium any of you other gentlemen want to come in there mr morris is yeah that well whilst the 1902 act deals with the construction of a crematorium close to dwellings and roads the construction of houses and other facilities near to a crematorium is a matter for the local planning authority the institute would suggest that both matters come under the hands of the planning authority albeit with proper guidance for those that the issue planning consent so that they can fully investigate and understand the needs to maintain tranquility of the crematorium environment willy okay no i'm happy about that can you know i could have a question please unless you want to no on you go i was hoping to ask a question about record keeping and since it here take advantage of your your experience and your knowledge my understanding there is no connection in the national records of scotland is to where a person is buried for example if you visit a cemetery and you see a person buried there there is no connection back the way to identify who that person is in the record system given that we're looking at improving records management in this whole process would that be something that you you would support to enable an addition for example to the entry in the national records of where a person is actually buried and perhaps where they were also cremated because that information is there's no connection between the two as i understand and appreciate your views and not mr mores please yeah the institute has campaigned for many years in england and wiles that the registrar of births and deaths that registers the death is informed of the place of burial or cremation and that is then entered into the death register so there would be a a national record so far registrar general in england and wiles has refused to do so but it would be a simple simple matter for that to take place anyone else on that point mr pearl please um i mean as mr mores has just said the situation in england and wiles is sort of nine tenths of the way there because the the disposal certificate the green disposal certificate actually has a tear off section which is completed and returned to the registrar of births and deaths advising them exactly where the disposal has taken place and yet it isn't actually recorded in the register which seems like an absolute nonsense and i'd agree with you wholeheartedly that that would if you like complete sorry to use the terminology but complete the circle you know so that the record keeping would be complete as far as cremations are concerned and burials are concerned obviously there are registers detailed registers kept at each of the locations where where those internments or where those cremations are taken are carried out but it's a case of identifying where that crematorium or cemetery is to be able to find that register so yes i'm not going to see exactly what you mean my travels i have been made aware of in one of the west of scotland cemeteries an old one but they've actually been through and checked the cemetery layer registers going back to 1865 eh which has thrown up difficulties from a management perspective because what they were found is that some of the the ground there was regarded as common ground and what was termed there as poppers graves and that done quite a number of occasions there was one placed in a layer those layers were then subsequently sold on eh sometimes it's evident with the knowledge that there would already be somebody in there not so obvious in other instances and that at the moment when you speak about reuse and all the rest of it is causing issues to this particular area because they're looking at how they will handle this and how they will know for sure but to make your point about records records clearly did exist and that's it when i'll be back to those days okay thank you very much for that thank you willy eh George Adam please yes i'm glad mr swanson brought up the reuse of layers i don't feel so bad bringing the item back up again it's one of the biggest problems i have from my constituency with regards to cemeteries is that families will maybe buy a layer and be told they can get two three in some cases three or four family members within that layer eh within about a 20 or 30 year period dad dies there's a 12 year gap or something like that mum dies they get told that there's been a deterioration at the cemetery itself and they can't get the extra people in the layer as well so we end up going through all kinds of problems with local authority and we can finally get it sorted but it's a costly venture for everyone to do so i'm thinking that after 70 if that's after 20 or 30 years after 75 years in some cemeteries if i'm using the one i'm talking about in paisley as an example is it not going to be the case that it's going to be very expensive and very difficult for the areas to be able to actually reuse these layers again because if it's a problem that's on going i'm getting it regularly unfortunately in my constituency business gentlemen anyone want to mr pil you're looking expensive there well the only thing i would say is not every cemetery is the same so much depends on the ground conditions that you find in each and every location you may well be in digging in sand in one cemetery you may have have sandstone in others you know that there will be natural restrictions as to the depth that can be obtained in in some layers and in other areas it may not pose a problem at all so it's very difficult to be absolutely precise and say that this is what should happen i know but family members take it as when they go there say 20 years ago and they said three people in that layer then they say that's it it's three people and they've already worked out who's going there and effectively when that doesn't happen then they get very upset and it becomes quite difficult but i'm just saying if it's like that in that scenario what is it going to be like in 75 years in some of them because not all of them as you've said yourself are some of the local in my area the local authority ones probably the worst out to do or to get the most complaints about so you know how you're going to deal with that in that situation it's like mr morris says how is that going to actually help you with sustainability of cemeteries i think the other difficulty to be honest is the fact that you know we've moved quite significantly with health and safety you know and the precautions that we have to take when we work in in areas like that and actually excavate those graves where perhaps 20 30 years ago you might find that the graves were excavated and not showed that you know that the different restrictions or lack of restrictions were in place things have moved on quite significantly and we really perhaps can't do some of the things today that we could have done 20 or 30 years ago to achieve those results the other thing i was going to ask is mr morris mentioned about the fact of people of historical significance if you're going to reuse a grave now and sometimes like mine been a post industrial revolution town you know we've got the great and the good in certain parts but the families have all left you know who decides that it's actually historical significance we've got a whole bunch of cotton bands whose families are no longer there in the four corners of the world so who's going to decide whether that's historically significant there should be a consultation with Historic Scotland on conservation plans and reuse proposals prior to them taking place okay thanks for that the i'm just trying to think oh yes the other thing i was going to say is how does the bill actually help with the the general upkeep of cemeteries you know because it's one of the on-going complaints that i get people complaining of the fact that they're not the same as what it was when they go and visit mum or dad every the kind of couple of weeks how does it help to make them more sustainable and how does it help to actually make sure that it's a better environment for the families who are going to see their loved ones mr brown do you want to have a crack at that first please i think it's possibly more appropriate for someone who deals with with beryl's to to comment on that as funeral directors and we also have have concerns around that and we'd welcome anything in the bill that's going to address that and i think it would be more appropriate for mr mollys said please yeah um i've visited you quite a few scottish cemeteries and i must say that in general they're maintaining to a higher standard than in perhaps other parts of the uk and i think that the bringing back layers into reuse will help again fix maintenance costs through the avoidance of building more sites and adding to maintenance burdens and by fixing maintenance costs maintenance can be continued at the same level which is quite high at the present time mr perl i'd agree with mr morris about the certainly about the condition of the cemeteries i think that the other thing is obviously if you're looking how effective the bill itself will be i think it's really probably more appropriate to look at the at the regulations that are developed underneath the bill and how they will actually set out the requirements if you like or the management of those cemeteries and and i'm not trying to to sort of suggest that you do the same thing but in england and wales we have the local authority cemeteries order which basically sets out for certainly for local authority cemeteries the do's and don'ts and and and how they will actually be managed but that's that comes below the the actual uh primary legislation if you like in in regulation itself and that may well be the way to you know to to enhance this okay thanks george um geomolson please thank you just as a follow-up to in a couple of questions that george adam raised could you advise me has there been any changes in the regulations regarding internments and the depth of an internment from the surface because like george adam i've also faced the problems where people have been told that they could get so many internments in a layer and then when they go to get no deal with the funeral of a family member are then told no you can't get a family member in that layer because there's no space left because the regulations changed have there been changes to the regulations so if any local authority says to a you know a family member who has a layer who was told to get three or four internments in that layer and they come back and say sorry we made a mistake there's been a change in regulations we can't no longer get three or four internments in that layer mr morris please there are still instances in scotland where that third internment can't take place because of insufficient depth although there are a few authorities in scotland that have adopted the spirit of the local authority cemetery's order in respect of depths of burial so that they can guarantee that third burial so this is an opportunity through regulation for the scotish government to regulate depths of burials avoid those conflicts where that third internment can't take place and satisfy those bereaved families who have purchased rights for three burials in a grave and then are told that their right for the third doesn't exist so those disputes can be eliminated through regulation of depth of burial mr brown is that an issue that your members come across in terms of family members when they're making the arrangements for the funeral to be told that you don't have the current space on that unfortunately we do we do deal with that where it's perhaps uncertain when we make the booking at the cemetery whether there would be space there would have to be a probe to determine whether there's space left in that that layer and in some cases families have to opt for a new layer an alternative family layer or in some cases cremation with the the internment in the layer because there's sufficient space for for ashes to be entered but not for the for a full internment and I suppose that's part of where the any of these stands comes from in terms of being opposed to reuse of layers and reuse of headstones is because we already have this experience of families having an expectation about that layer which is no longer able to be fulfilled and we as the the agent booking this emetry on behalf of the family often have to deal with resolving those those issues just to as a follow-up to that convener just to ask the internment of ashes mr brown you made reference to no and it's been mr pill submission mr pill you've referred to the scattering of ashes on top of the layer but the internment of ashes in a layer is there any general guidance through your institute mr morris to your members regarding how ashes should be dealt with where in mr brown's example he gave where a layer is full but people want to be interred their ashes interred in that layer and how widely acceptable is that within your membership mr morris the institute's guidance on the burial of ashes in a layer if there is space for a further coffin burial is to bury the ashes at full depth so that in the future should that coffin burial take place that the previously buried ashes aren't disturbed or alternatively the the the layer owner can agree with the authority that the ashes be buried at a shallower depth which attracts a smaller fee and that the grave is closed in respect of that future coffin burial so there's a clear understanding from both parties the institute would also propose that any regulation in respect of depth of burial that the depth at which each burial takes place is registered so that there's no need for probing the authority will always know how much available depth is in the grave and can therefore guarantee it's what is in effect a contract with the brief family that owns the land right and that contract would last for 75 years if not according to the current proposed bill yes that would be in effect for 75 years and then the 75 years that that layer would then be open to the authority at that time to make use of that layer it would also be open for the layer owner to renew for a further 75 years so the same family could generation after generation maintain their rights could carry out further burials and could actually bring their own layer back into reuse and this happens across Europe thank you very much okay thank you very much for your evidence today gentlemen i suspend and we move into private session