 Good morning from Stanford University. Welcome everyone from around the world. With my co-director, Professor Itui, who is the director of the Precourt Institute for Energy, we're delighted to welcome you to the final Storage X seminar this year. Today we're gonna be talking about a very exciting topic which is circular economy for batteries. This is such an important topic. We have already covered it twice. Last year and this year, we had two seminars. One is on the American circular economy featuring J.B. Straubel from Redwood Materials. We have another one earlier this year on the sustainability of mining featuring not only the Western perspective but also the African perspective as well. And then today, we're really delighted to welcome two leading industrial colleagues to be talking about the deployment of the European circular economy. I'm using this word deployment very strongly because it's no longer about thinking of the circular economy but rather doing it. I also wanna briefly introduce Stanford's activity in this area. We view circular economy as one of the most important opportunity moving forward. And as such, we have established a consortium of academics and industry participants to form the consortium for circular economy of energy storage, C2E2. And there we are exploring four important questions. Number one, the technology for recycling, repurposing and re-manufacturing. Two, the decision-making tools that's informed by technical dynamics and environmental footprint. Third, the geographically and market-specific business models and finally, the regulatory framework. So I hope today we can hear a lot of details both technical and non-technical from my two colleagues. So our speakers are Kirsten Schiller-Arnt who is the Vice President of Research at BSF. And we also have Emma Nerenheim who is the Chief Environmental Officer at Northvalt in Sweden. So I will first introduce Kirsten and she will give her talk and E will introduce Emma. So Kirsten is very well-known for her long career at BSF, having been there nearly 30 years. And she is also responsible for a very important academic industrial work which is the California Research Alliance that BSF is leading to work with institutions here in North America. And Kirsten's interest spans not only battery materials but also other inorganic materials, catalysts. And today we're so delighted to get her expert perspective as a chemist on what is next for the circular economy of lithium-ion batteries. Kirsten, with that introduction, the floor is yours. Yeah, thank you very much, Will for that kind introduction. And also let me thank all organizers for inviting me. I hope you can see now my slides. Yeah, I would like to talk about BSF approach towards battery recycling and how we plan to close the loop for the electromobility. Let me first introduce a little bit BSF. BSF is one of the biggest companies in the world. We have sales of 59 billion euros and our chemistry is used in almost all industries. We produce our chemistry at more than 240 production sites and six of them are so-called verbund sites, highly integrated sites where we produce in one plant a chemical product which is the raw material in the next plant ideally only transported through pipes. We serve around 90,000 customers and we do all of that with 110,000 employees. The chemical industry is really in a transforming phase now and we are very committed to contribute in that. We already have a nice track record in CO2 emission reduction since 1990. We have divided our CO2 emissions by the factor of two although we have, of course, increased our production volume. And we are committed to do more. Our target is to reduce additional 25% by 2030 and aim a net zero emission by 2050. We do that, for example, by our carbon management program where we are developing innovative technologies such as methane paralysis for hydrogen production. Since I'm a researcher, let me shortly introduce BSS research. Of course, this research is rather broad since we are really dealing with a lot of industries. We develop our processes under the headline of process research and chemical engineering and of course there we also optimize processes. With that, we also develop catalysts and battery materials. We have a strong footprint in materials research, for example, for functional materials and polymers. And we do a lot in bioscience research for crop protection but also for chemical transformations. Overall, we spend more than 2 billion euros per year for research, are organized in more than 3,000 research projects and around 10% of the employees of the company are involved in that. That was the input. Let me talk also about the output. We filed last year more than 950 patents and what is really great from our point of view is that 10 billion sales are coming from young innovations and that's really good compared to the rest of the industry. Research is really an interdisciplinary effort. That's why in our company experts in organic and inorganic synthesis experts in catalysis and battery materials development are working together with engineers experience and process development and process optimization. And with that, we can really start to bring a project from the idea through the lab, through the pilot, into the production. So it's very interesting to work in R&D at BSF. However, with the world turning more and more complicated and with the great challenges and opportunities ahead of us very much also driven by sustainability, it's much too complicated for one company alone to work on all of that. That's why we have a lot of partnerships in R&D and let me just highlight here in an university development our eight academic research alliances will already introduce CARA, the California Research Alliance. They're almost all industry, all Californian universities are working with BSF under a framework contract and this alliance covers a broad range of research topics. We have a similar set up at the East Coast with NORA. We have UNAS in Europe and we have now in Asia. Beyond that, we have four alliances focused on specific topics and we also have other university collaboration and collaborations with research institutes. With that, we have the opportunity really to team up with the brightest minds in the world. Let me now come to electromobility. I think I don't need to mention that electromobility is one strong driver for a sustainable society and the core of electromobility is the battery. The battery consists of an anode and a cathode as key materials and within that cathode, there are the critical raw materials, nickel, cobalt, and lithium. The cathode material is the material that is responsible for getting the performance of the battery right. Let me change to the... So this cathode here, that cathode material is really the key. Okay, and the battery industry is also transforming because batteries have been developed originally very much for the consumer batteries. However, already today, the market for electromobility towards batteries is bigger than for consumer electronics and the market growth rates are tremendous. We in BSF love to think in value chains, so let me do that for batteries as well. It starts from the metals, the ores which are transformed into the metal salts, which are then the raw materials for the cathode active materials. Those are implemented in the cells and then in the battery, in the car, and in the end of the life, the battery needs to be recycled. BSF is active in the cathode active materials and in battery recycling. And our goal is to become the most sustainable cam producer globally. We have well set up for that with our global footprint of R&D technology centers and production sites. And we have a comprehensive IP portfolio on battery materials as well as on recycling. R&D plays an important role and as a researcher, I love to talk about R&D. R&D works on the one hand side, on the development of new materials, improved materials, next generation battery materials, and it's also the role of R&D to work on recycling. This comes with improvement of process technologies and really bringing everything into a commercial production. So let me talk first about the cathode active materials and what's ongoing there. Every cathode material needs lithium. However, the performance of the material heavily depends on the mixture of the other metals, the cobalt, the nickel, and the manganese. And all these three elements bring different aspects to the battery. So we are today now heavily in the area, in that red area, the high energy NCM materials with 80% nickel, 10% cobalt and 10% manganese. The trend is to go to high nickel that increases the energy density and therefore also the performance of the battery. To manage the cost, manganese is also added and the manganese rich families are attractive in that area. Of course, after the development of the material, they need to be produced. And this is something what we are doing. We have already production sites in the US and in Asia and we are currently building up our production sites in Schwarzheidel in Eastern Germany and Hayewalter in Finland. You can see from the pretty recent pictures, they are really very advanced. And with that, we will become the first truly global cathode active material supplier. Producing cathode active materials means one has to take care of sustainable metals. At that point in time, those metals very much come from the mine because the market is growing. That's why mine metals are the basis for that. And we really look into that also on different angles. First of all, from the European perspective, we have teamed up with the metal refinery in Finland to ensure a local material supply which also comes with sustainability advantages in terms of logistics. We are currently evaluating together with our partner Aramets, the development of a joint nickel and cobalt refining complex in Indonesia. And we are a founding member of the Global Battery Alliance which really targets to have a truly sustainable battery. We also launched together with partners the Pilot Mine Project, Cobalt for Development, a project which targets to improve the mining working conditions in the Congo. So this is about the metal situation from mining. One of the biggest levers or maybe the biggest lever will be battery recycling. And let me start there with a market projection In 2030, we can expect 1.6 million metric tons of end of life batteries. And these 1.6 million metric tons of battery packs come with more than 160,000 tons of nickel, cobalt, manganese and lithium, which can be mined from these used battery packs. However, we have to start earlier than 2030 because already in the year 2025, when all the big capacities come on stream, there will be a lot of off-spec cells and off-spec cum which need to be handled in a sustainable way and which offer great opportunities for recycling. There are recycling technologies. However, those need to be scaled. Those need to be improved. And let me now talk a little bit about the drivers, why industry really should look into battery recycling. First of all, not surprising the topic of CO2 emissions, the topic of greenhouse gas emissions and their battery recycling is the largest lever to reduce that. I would like to cite a study from the University of Alto from this year. This study looked at lithium-ion batteries and nickel-metal hydride waste. And this study shows that the CO2 savings calculated for cum can be 38% and also our own calculations go into a similar direction. And so these greenhouse gas emissions are good reason to go into recycling. The second driver is the value of the metals. When you look into a composition of an automotive lithium-ion battery, the metals produced from lithium hydroxide, cobalt and nickel make up around 15% of the weight. However, are the biggest contributor in material value. So also there are many good reasons to really have a strong look into the metals. And the third driver is regulation. Of course, this regulation again is driven by those sustainability arguments so everything goes hand in hand. However, I would like to show you a little bit what Europe is planning here. Already today, there is a need to recycle 50% of the battery. This change is not big and really easily done. Starting from the year 2025, it needs to be 65%. The industry has to collect 100% and there are clear targets for the valuable metals, nickel, cobalt and copper and lithium. In 2030, the challenge becomes higher. Recycling rate needs to be increased and also the metal specific recycling rates required are increased. In addition, as a producer of cam material, one has to have also recycled material in the cam. So with that, I would say three good arguments for a cam producer to intensively look into battery recycling and to close the loop. What needs to be done here? Okay, it starts from metal mining now, goes through that cassoed active materials. Those go into a battery cell. This battery cell is then introduced in a battery, this in a car. And finally, at the end of life, these batteries need to be collected. Then there are some mechanical operations which produce so-called black mass and that black mass is the feedstock for metal extraction. And now it's the point as the set to set up the processes and facilities to close the loop. And I would like to talk now a little bit more in-depth about BSF approach. And the first question is, how do we get to the black mass or how is the black mass produced? Let me show you a diagram towards the composition of a typical battery recycling pack. This battery pack consists to 50% out of periphery, battery system periphery, module periphery and cell housing. Those components can be easily collected and separated from the rest of the battery. The rest of the battery contains 15% of the cathode active materials, the attractive part towards the metals. There are also graphite from the anode. There are the electrode foils, copper and aluminum. And there are electrolyte separator and so on. And to work with these 50% is the more difficult part in recycling. And here is the value chain. We are setting up for that, we are set already. We start with discharging and dismantling. And in that process, the first 50% there's a high recycling rate already. So next part is a mechanical process. It starts the shredding, paralysis and milling and thieving. And what is the intermediate here is the so-called black mass. At that stage, there's a good opportunity to feed in also scrap, pecan and chem material. And this mixture goes then into the metal extraction where nickel, cobalt, manganese and copper and lithium are taken out of the mixture. Looking at that long front and part of this recycling chain up to the nickel, cobalt, manganese and copper, there is a lot of existing technologies outside, also from the recycling industry and from mining. However, for the specific task of the battery recycling, there are optimization potentials and adjustments necessary to really make that economical good and to really bring it to the next stage. And we are really looking into that from that end-to-end perspective, how can we really optimize that whole chain? And for that, we build on these established processes and optimize it together with our partners. Lithium is a little bit another animal. Lithium does not naturally occur with nickel and cobalt. And with that, there is a huge innovation potential and that's why this is a very innovative part of BSF's battery recycling value chain. Let me come back to the black mass. The black mass, I said already contains the valuable methods of nickel, cobalt, manganese and lithium. The black mass contains also graphite from the anode and it contains what you could not separate in that mechanical processes from the 50% of that model to a lot of fluoride from the electrolyte or the binder and aluminum and copper from the electrode foils plus a lot of other impurities which are not separated mechanical. And from that mixture is easy to say that you need to apply chemical processes to extract the valuable metals for that. In principle, there are two opportunities, pyrometallurgy and hydrometallurgy. Pyrometallurgy is a very mature technology. The black mass or also modules directly are heated up to around 1500 degrees C. Under those conditions, nice pure alloy of nickel and copper is built and this alloy can be separated. It's very clean and then can be separated further into the metals. However, the lithium goes into the slag and part of the manganese there goes into the slag and it's more or less lost. Of course, you can extract it again. However, this process is very, very tedious. The hydrometallurgy is a cold process. It also has high recovery rates for cobalt nickel and copper and there also lithium is recycled and there's also manganese recycling possible. The drawback of hydrometallurgy are the high investments required and the high amounts of bi-projects. Nevertheless, because of the temperature profile and the lithium and the manganese, this is the process where we built on SPSF and I would like to show you one typical process of hydrometallurgy as it is used in the battery recycling industry and then elaborate a little bit on the improvements and adjustments which are necessary, that said. The process starts with a leaching step. In that leaching step, the black mass is leached with sulfuric acid and hydrogen peroxide. The second stage is then an extraction of copper via solvent extraction. Afterwards, all these impurities are precipitated out by raising the pH value. So very basic chemistry, people might remember the first year at university where all this is also discussed. After that impurity precipitation, there is a solution, a sulfuric acid solution containing nickel, cobalt, manganese and lithium and nickel, cobalt, manganese are taken out through solvent extraction and the lithium in a typical recycling process is afterwards precipitated out as a lithium carbonate. And at that stage, I can only reiterate what I said before. Here under the nickel, there's a lot of technology to build on. However, it needs to be adjusted. Room for innovation is the lithium part. Let me talk a little bit about the adjustments in that base metal refinery. As I said, it's typical there to leach the black mass or to leach something with sulfuric acid. And afterwards go for an impurity precipitation followed by a solvent extraction in a mixerset like cascade. You can find that in many, many mining operations. However, this black mass recycling comes with some differences. First of all, there are many, many matters in different concentrations. It's not a clear feed. You really have to adjust the concentrations and your leaching conditions according to the feed because you get different batteries. You have a lot of different oxidation states. For example, there's cobalt-3 coming with the cum. This cobalt-3 requires a reducing agent as the hydrogen peroxide. And then they are on the other hand metals which come in a metal state like the aluminum or the copper from the foils. That's why these recipes have to be adjusted so that they work on really dissolved old metals. I would like also to mention copper and aluminum because they come as a metal itself when they are dissolved in sulfuric acid. They develop hydrogen during leaching. That needs to be handled in the right way because otherwise hydrogen can cause some safety issues and that is very much to the experience of a chemical industry to handle that properly. And already this part leaves a lot of room for optimization also over the value chain because if you really manage to separate copper and aluminum well in the black mass production part that is easier in that hydro metallurgy part. And that is one of the reasons why we think it's very important to really look into that from an end to end perspective. Another aspect I would like to highlight are new impurities which are not normally found in those mining operations. Fluoride is one of it. Silicon from silicon anodes is another one and those need to be handled and need to be and the processes there for that need to be also developed or adjusted. Processes are there but to really get it right in a way that you in the end have high purity battery materials which you need in the end for quality reasons need some optimization and in-depth thinking. Yeah, let me shortly also talk about lithium. Lithium normally as I said comes as a lithium carbonate at the end. So that's a rather simple process in the end. Sodium carbonate is added, lithium carbonate is then precipitated out. However, this lithium carbonate is not what the battery industry wants. The battery industry bases their processes on a lithium hydroxide and that's why this lithium hydroxide is the preferred chemical. Of course, you can easily transform the lithium carbonate into lithium hydroxide. However, you add process steps, you add investment, you add costs and you add also CO2 footprint. That's why we are working on a direct lithium hydroxide process to overcome that disadvantage. Okay, so let me summarize. Competitive recycling capabilities will be a key success factor for electro mobility and for someone as BSF who is working in cathode active materials and recycling, we as BSF have the target to close the loop and to offer the best in class CO2 footprint over that value chain. We do that based on a long-standing expertise in our recycling industry from our PGM business that is not only a technical expertise, it's also very, very much a commercial expertise. We build our recycling value chain end-to-end with a strong partnership network and have our lithium hydroxide direct proprietary BSF process. And for our recycling activities, key milestone will be to start up in 2023, our recycling pilot plant where we also can demonstrate our CO2 footprint improvements and the ambition is to achieve commercial scale in 2025 and in 2026 then being able to supply 10% of the nickel for our CAM material from recycled material, from recycled batteries. And with that, we are clearly ahead of the European Commission goals. At the end, let me give some future perspective. Mobility transformation is happening right now. There is, we feel already the impact of climate change and we have to act now in that respect. For that, we offer sustained battery recycling value chain and we accepted the challenge and try to contribute for a better build. And with that, that's all what I have and I'm open for questions. All right, Kirsten, thank you very much for that deep dive into the chemistry of recycling as well as the higher level overview. So we have quite a number of questions. I think some of which I will save until after Emma's talk as well to have a more interesting joint discussion. So one question for you, Kirsten, has to do with the pre-chemical steps. Can you talk a little about the benefits of separation before the chemical steps? For example, the European Battery Passport will allow you to maybe know something about the battery. Is that something BSF is paying attention to? And is that a lever? It is a lever for sure and that is something BSF is paying attention to. We are strongly contributing to the battery passport. And yeah, so that has several, and I have to admit I'm not an expert in that field. I'm the researcher when there need to be more information I can connect also to the business people. But what is for sure clear, the battery passport also helps to make sure that sustainable metals go into the battery. And that will also help the overall battery value chain. That's one aspect. And the second aspect is of course, when a battery passport comes with the battery, it makes sorting much easier and that will reduce the cost of analytics, that will reduce the cost of blending. And then it becomes more and more professional in battery recycling and scaling the processes. That will be an important part of optimizing and steering the whole value chain. And the digital tools that will be for sure an easy thing to do. And so it's an important lever and we really work on that. Terrific, Kirsten. And here we have another question also, the prechemistry part of recycling. So the battery contains a lot of residual energy, whether it's the chemical bonds or the electrical energy stored directly, has, we have thought about what is the best way to get that energy out? Is it to drive reactions since it's often exothermic or is there also discussions on removing the energy from the battery via discharging? And is there also thoughts on how to integrate that energy into the entire recycling process? So of course, the batteries are discharged and there are many reasons for that. First of all, the energy is useful and the second aspect is it's also dangerous to have the energy in the batteries when you go into the shredding process. There are also, this is a very, very agile field and there are many concepts ongoing. One aspect for sure is to discharge the battery in an area where you need electrical energy, not specific for one special reaction, but really making use of that energy be it at BASF, be it at another place. So, but for sure, the energy will be used. It will be maybe already used before you start to transport the battery. Excellent, Kirsten. That makes a lot of sense. Let me take two more questions, there's quite a few. So the next question concerns the chemical part. So can you discuss briefly what is the impurity requirement for commercial grade recycled raw materials such as nickel sulfate? And then secondly, could you also briefly discuss how the cost of recycling, maybe the CAPEX and OPEX scales with the impurity level that is, or the purity level that is required? Okay, so the second question really to give numbers is a hard task, but what is a very easy answer on the first question, there are specifications out for battery grade chemicals and it's very simply the requirement of a recycling company to meet those specifications. And that's a very easy answer. And there are some elements which are really tough, for example, then you have for some reasons, think contaminations, that's really a critical one. Yeah, especially different kinds of metal contaminations are always very critical. Yeah, and that's why, yeah, this is really something which depends. The second part is the costs really depend very much on the feedstock. When you manage to really sort properly, then the task afterwards is much easier. If you don't sort properly, you are really in trouble. And that's why the maturity of the industry, the sorting will become more professional and you don't have so many impurities, maybe also from the consumer batteries that will over, the task will over time become easier. Nevertheless, it's something to pay attention to. Yeah, and therefore it's also good to have the cathode active material production and expertise in-house because for me it's an easy back and forth to discuss with the colleagues and also to try out for things where there is no specification yet because you have almost a whole periodic table in those feeds you get nowadays for recycling. Terrific, Kirsten. And one last question, and you and I have already discussed this several times separately, but I'll ask the question on behalf of our audience. What is the opportunity on a per mass level of CO2 footprint saving in one user's recycled materials versus the virgin mine materials? Yeah, there are different studies. So the University of Alto says, yeah, CO2 savings of 38% calculated for cum, cum produced by using 100% recycled materials, uses 38% less CO2 footprint than cum material just produced from mining. We see it maybe a little bit, sometimes some studies see it a little bit more conservative, but the bottom line is recycling is in terms of CO2 footprint, the biggest lever in that value chain to make cum more sustainable. Wonderful, Kirsten. So there are many more questions, but we'll save them for the panel discussion in about 35 minutes. So thank you, Kirsten, for your talk and answering all these questions. And let me now invite Emma to the stage. All right, so there you are, Emma. Thank you very much. So let me now briefly introduce our second speaker in more depth. So as mentioned, Emma is the chief environmental officer for Northwolds. I'm glad to hear that there's now another type of CEO out there that's reflecting the change of times. And Emma is actually an academic turned industrialist as she was previously a professor of environmental engineering at the Målandalen University in Sweden, where she was performing basic research on bio-related environmental issues and also have spent time in industry at the utility scale, for example, with ABB. And of course, for the past three and a half year has been leading Northwolds' efforts on all aspects related to environmental considerations for battery productions and recycling. So Emma, Northwold is really a true success story when it comes to merging battery production and sustainability. And we're very delighted to have you share the Northwolds journey so far and where it is going next. Emma, go ahead, please. Thank you, William. I hope that you can see my screen now. Can you? Perfect. Excellent. So hi, everyone. I'm very honored to be here. I'm gonna try to give you a little bit my view of where we are in this industry and what I find important going forward and a little bit of taste of where we are right now and following up on the great presentation you had just before from Kirsten from BASF. I think that I'm gonna give the Northwold flavor to it and I hope to enjoy it. So I've been in this company now for a bit more than four years and Northwold has also been around a little bit more than four years, starting maybe formally just a few months before I started the company. And the beginning was by Peter and Paolo that it seemed like Europe was falling behind a bit and they really saw that there was a need for a local or a regional supply chain of EV battery production but most importantly, also a knowledge build that in Europe on the industrialization of battery manufacturing. So there was a huge amount of different projects in academia. There was a very big interest from academia and there was also an interest of buying and starting to develop within the industry, EVs in general. Also at the time, there was of course a big development also in the energy space and it was incredibly interesting to see how the PV industry was developing, how renewables was entering the grid and how this of course, together with the discussion on transforming into a full electrical transportation grid. There was a lot of gaps there and I think that can be debated whether or not we are really accelerating and to fill those gaps. But what we do have today is we have a lot of people wanting to buy an EV and we have a lot of good solutions on renewable energy but there is really a little bit of a gap between the production or the transformation of that energy into the grid and utilizing that energy in the best ways. And you've all seen the different examples of how small part of Sahara we would use to utilize the solar energy that we could utilize and so on and so forth. So there is a true gap here and that's the key and I hope I'm gonna come into that a little bit more if I have time. But the key point here was we saw some things here. We saw that pricing of batteries needed to go down and there was a need for scale. There was a need for scale within Europe but most importantly, there was a need for filling that knowledge gap also in sustainability. So there were articles published on what if we go into a new industry that has maybe not the same but similar or additional footprints. Are we building ourselves into a new base industry that has other challengers that has a footprint on carbon that is not reduced enough to compete with the diesel or gasoline fuel engine. And this was something that needed at the time to be addressed and to meet the single person who wants to buy a car, you have to be able to explain all this and you have to be able to be very, very true. So early on and I'm gonna explain a bit more how we differentiate ourselves and how we work on this. Early on we decided that it's incredibly important to have a full understanding of that full supply chain. So we're not only cell producers, we're also material producers and we need to be also material producers because we want to understand what is happening when we buy material, how we buy material and what is then sort of the full supply chain. We also want to bring that as close to us as possible and we want to be able to understand how we can really make sure that we utilize all our resources, utilize the energy, utilize water, whatever utilities we need. One example is that as the previous speaker just mentioned, you get a certain type of waste streams and one example is a sodium sulfate, it's a salt that normally industries do have as a byproduct and that they normally rinse out. And we said very early on that, let's take a bet that we can do something good about this. And today we have an off taker of that material because we decided to purify it. We decided to do something innovative and disruptive that hasn't really been in the eyes of the industry before and to find a market for it. And it's now going into replacing a virgin product for the fertilizer industry. And that's one example and we are working through our entire supply chain and our waste streams to manage that kind of things. So bringing down the carbon footprint, I'm gonna talk about our goals a little bit later, but key and the most important thing that we needed to take a stab on very early was the carbon footprint. And how do you bring down carbon footprint? It's of course by controlling a large part of your own production of the supply chain of the footprint that you have in the product and the production and then also to ensure that that is being produced under a grid that is not burdening the product. So therefore we have established our factory in the Nordic under 100% hydro powered and wind powered grid. And that is one of our sort of key deliverables to the market to be the sort of the most sustainable battery manufacturer. Okay, we have a number of segments that we work on and as you know when the most obvious one is obviously the EV industry we have a lot of customers that we talk about and that we that are from the automotive space. And this is the biggest one that is gonna be transforming especially in Europe. But for me, it's also very, very interesting to talk about two things. One is the energy storage. So going back to a little bit of what I mentioned before that if you have renewable energy that wants to feed into the grid but you haven't for instance you have sometimes an over production of wind where you have to export to the surroundings. And what happens then if you don't have a stabilizing energy source on the grid that you're exporting to if everyone is using only wind for instance then you need to be able to utilize that wind in another place but also at another time when the wind is not there anymore. Same with solar. So I think that that space to bring storage into the ESS space is incredibly important also for the transformation of the EV industry. So taking a big stab on this making sure that if we do investments on the renewable energy side that investment can also be backed by a full utilization of the energy that can be captured by that source. And if we do that smart and we use this ability to now store energy in a good way then we can be much, much more effective and we can in total decrease the footprint of all our industrial applications because we can bring down the total footprint of the grid. Another aspect that I find important is also the industrial space. And one example of that is the mining industry. We have a very close collaboration for instance with the mining company EpiRoc. And as you will see later but also going back to the figures that was mentioned by the previous speaker you will see that the mining industry is responsible for a lot of the footprint actually also in the EV batteries. And since that footprint is very hard to bring down by changing the grid we have to also work on those machines in the mines. And it's been actually a few years now that we've worked with industrial applications for the mining industry and we now have batteries in full operation and that electrified mining equipment. And I'm really proud of that and I think that that will also be incredibly important for this industry in the future to work across the supply chain. What we have said is that we will bring the footprint down significantly and it has already been mentioned today and I find it very rewarding to hear that the entire industry is committing to this but what we've said is that by 2030 we wanna have a footprint of 10 kilograms per of carbon dioxide per kilowatt hour produced battery. And this is very aggressive but it's also very important to be bold and to dare to be aggressive when you set your targets. Today this number is for a benchmark battery around 100 so it is a very ambitious target. And I think it's important that we strive as an industry to meet it. How do we do this? We do it by committing to 100% renewable energy in our grid and as I said, this is one of the main reasons why we moved the factory and established the factory where we did. We have another target that will also support in delivering these 10 kilos that's the 50% recycled content target by 2030. Again, a very ambitious target but it's also a very important target. And this target is here to deliver also so many other aspects. It's the aside of carbon footprints it also supports reducing the land footprint reducing the waste produced from mattress. And also supporting biological diversity, water usage, land use, resource outtake and so on and so forth. I would say that all of these 16 impact factors that we have in our life cycle assessments are influenced by reaching this 50% recycled material. And this is what we do in the recycling business that I'm responsible for that is called Revolt and I'm gonna come back to that. Looking at the benchmark battery, as I mentioned 100 kilos of carbon dioxide per kilowatt hour roughly it can be more, it can be less we've seen a different. But if we look at that specifically, today you have on a benchmark battery about 50% of that in production and then you have the rest in supply chain and then you have a bucket that you can call others it's logistics and some other things. A typical Norfolk cell and has 100% renewable energy in the entire production, including cathode production meaning that we can significantly already now reduce that entire footprint. We also can conclude that since we have the rest of the footprint in the cathode are in the upstream production and we bring a lot of the material production in the house remaining footprint is mainly in the cathode. So also going back to what Kirsten said before this is why recycling also supports the strategy of using that to go down even further in footprint. If you look at this 35 approximately kilos of carbon dioxide per kilowatt hour that Norfolk has in a battery cell produced today as you can see the supply chain holds relatively a very high footprint. So for us, the recycling as well as working with the development in relationship and collaboration with our suppliers is incredibly important and that's where we will have basically all of our all of our reduction of carbon footprint going forward. So let's go into revolt of it. Revolt is our recycling business unit. It has been live since about three years back. It's been a technology development program and going into a more business oriented structure where we are starting up facilities now for recycling lithium ion batteries in the house in Norfolk. We have a pilot plant here where I'm sitting right now in Westeros and that is doing all the recycling steps for from pack to battery grade, NMC, sulfates and lithium hydroxide. And we are going live with our industrial scale giga plant for four giga with our production and by end next year. And as I said, we have that target to meet 50% recycled bacteria by 2030. But if we talk about this four giga with our production that we are starting up by year and 2022 as Q1 2023 somewhere around that and those four giga with ours represent about 25% of the production, the full production we'll have in Gelefikio at that time. So even if we think that it's aggressive to meet the 50% target already next year, we will be industrializing towards almost 25% of production. A little bit of a rendering of that full scale plant as you can see for those of you who has seen Norfolk we're setting this up in a typical Norfolk design and an atmosphere. And we are establishing this as a showcase in Northern Sweden for how to do full scale giga modern recycling of lithium ion batteries. So I hope that you really wanna come and visit us and have a look at how this will be done in house. Okay, so why can we do this? What is the sort of key thing that Norfolk is setting up that makes? It's easy for us to ramp this fast and effective and feasible. So if you compare us as a company to most other cell manufacturers, normally what you do is you buy cathode and then you start your electrode manufacturing, you go into cell assembly and then you build your module and pack and then you have a full EV battery. What we decided was that since we now want to establish something where we have more control, as I mentioned, and where we wanna build in a lower footprint but also have a better control of our supply chain, you wanna go upstream. So what we do is that we buy metal directly from the mining companies and then we produce our own precursor and our own active material and we do that onsite up in Khalefdeo. And this gives us a unique point because that means that we are actually off takers of NMC sulfates and we're also off takers of lithium hydroxide meaning that we already have a very clear path towards what kind of material we need, what is the mixture between those NMC metals and we can within just a few days do a full validation and full circle of the materials and to end. And this makes it possible for us to build in-house recycling in a very, from a sort of technology development perspective in a very effective way because whenever we take in batteries, we discharge them, we do our own dismantling, we do our own crushing and sorting as explained, we do not do any kind of thermal processing because we are very careful with all the materials especially with lithium, but also other materials that we wanna, that we wanna recover. And then we go into hydro metallurgical recovery of the metals. And this is enabling a very high recovery rate onsite. And then after that, they go into cell manufacturing. But what we do is that we do accept batteries from any NMC, NCA battery system. So we can take in material from the market, we support our customers in their recycling of batteries that we have provided, but also with other programs. We also, as was mentioned also in the previous discussion and then by the previous speaker, we are very much interested in recovering energy from the discharge and finding effective way of discharging. It's different in different places, how to do this. But it is important to use any opportunity to recover electricity. And here we are actually recovering that locally. In the dismantling, we also recover. The aluminum in a pack is a very high-grade aluminum so it's very interesting for recovery. But there are off-takers of everything and the same thing with crushing and sorting. There is a lot of innovation and disruptive technologies coming around crushing and sorting in that entire development now. It's becoming more and more interesting to look at those different streams and to recover in a very close local loop those material back into production. And this all in all, as was mentioned, is enabling cell manufacturing again on-site with recovered material. And what we can do is that we can validate the material locally. We can test them in various applications and we can also test different mixtures in the hydromet to see what quality we receive in the batteries. Why do we do this? I think that there's so many reasons why the entire EV industry should support a closed loop for battery recycling. First and foremost, we have to think about that if we continue to use cars in the way we are doing today and we have this high turnover in the car industry, if we are continuing to take out raw materials and have a linear flow, we do not only need a very high amount of raw materials to be able to meet the demand for new cars every year, we also build up a big mountain of scrap. And this is scrap of heavy metals that needs a very specific kind of treatment. So it's very obvious to anyone that we need to close this loop. It's also so, and I think that the person you touched upon it a little bit and we've also touched upon it without really calculating it, but if you think about it and you take all the different components and all the different mining operations needed to extract lithium on one hand, nickel on in a different site, cobalt in a third site and then also manganese elsewhere from, it's very obvious that the logistics and the energy needed for all those operations are significantly higher than only having one. What was called, I know before the urban mining but having one source of extracting those metals from the recycling feed. So I think that anyone who would look at this from a logical perspective, but also if you make the calculations behind, it's very clear that closing this loop is needed. And of course this is going to come with challenges. I mean, you need partnerships, you need to find a good collection scheme for this, but I think that when the market reaches a steady state, meaning when we send out as many cars as we bring back at the end of their lives, we're going to balance this out and we're going to have a close loop for all these batteries and we're going to circulate the elements. They are elements, so as you know, and you're all smart people here, they are possible to recycle again and again and again with equally high quality. And then as was mentioned before, by doing this, that will be the only way to really bring down the footprint of the batteries and to do that all the way across and also all the other footprints, as I mentioned in the entire life cycle assessment. And if we go back and talk about the battery passwords and the labeling of the footprints, I think that short-term, we will have two labeling, so we will have the carbon dioxide labeling footprint and we will also have the recycle content labeling that will come into the batteries. But who knows, in 10 years or in 15 years, we might actually label for all the 16 impact factors. And if we are not starting to take a look at this now, how our battery production is influencing water use, land use, resources, biological diversity, not the least and so on. I think that it could be that for some aspects we would be too late anyways. So that's something that I find really, really important. And then, not the least, by closing the loop and doing that as close to us as we can, utilizing something that is scrapped already, we can actually reduce the cost of the batteries in the next generations. And I think that it's incredibly important to work towards this. It's the renewable energy having the opportunity to store renewable energy and to use, utilize that whenever and time you need, that's going to enable after the investments that are needed, that's going to enable and the reduction of footprint but also cost. Renewable energy is by definition cheaper. So if we look ahead like 10 years, renewable energy is going to be the only way of bringing down significantly the cost of this kind of production. And that together with recycling the elements again and again and again in several generations will together bring down the cost of an EV so that anyone can be driving a car that is not polluting the local or global environment. And just ending up with a team shot when we first a couple of months back tested and validated a fully recycled cell with cathode material, with the cathode team and the recycling team. So with that I end my presentation and I hope you enjoyed it. And if there are questions I'm here, just reach out. Emma, thank you so much for the presentation. And again, we have quite a few questions here. So I'll try to get through some of them before asking Kirsten those to join us for the panel discussion. So Emma, the first question is from me. I would like to begin with an observation. If I'm not mistaken, Northvolt is the first company to co-design and build cell manufacturing, powder manufacturing and recycling at the same time. This notion of starting everything at the same time, I think it's very attractive in terms of co-innovation. Can you discuss a bit what opportunity opens up because you're doing all three at the same time and developing it from the ground up? I think that all opportunities open up and I think that this is what's enabling us to do this circularity and to give this promise on the sustainability targets. Because if we would have not been able to do this and we would have had to find other off-takers of the enemy, if we would have had to be dependent on sort of market influences in between in our supply chain, it could be so that that would have slowed down. We can be very fast because we have the quality team that we share. We have the very, very experienced material, cathode development engineers. We have the cell development engineers and we have the recycling and hydromet specialists together in one team. This means that we can have a very full understanding of what consequences each development step has all across this R&D. Terrific, Emma. Thank you. I think it's a very exciting opportunity, one of a kind for sure. You mentioned earlier that you're focusing on hydrometallurgical process in-house for recycling and I just wanted to understand the reason you're able to do so is it because your feed is mostly scrap at this moment so it's highly controlled and doesn't have the other ingredients from pack-level recycling, for example. No, I would say that the main reason is that we do our own pre-recycling. So we do our own shredding and sorting. We have two plans up for that now. One is very nearby here and one is in Oslo, Norway. As you all know, Norway is a very early market. It's a very mature market with a very high portion of EVs already since quite long and we are supporting recycling on the Norwegian market, meaning that we are building a black mass for ourselves that is very attractive for our own hydromet production. E? Yeah, Emma, very nice talk. It's so good to see Northward is doing this amazingly high-impact stuff, right? One question is, since you're starting right now and I will assume at the beginning maybe the cost of the bear feed will be slightly higher, maybe a lot higher than the existing one. But I can see its environmental footprint is so much lower. When you go to scale the cost, as you said, it's renewable. Coming from renewable electricity is so much lower cost now a coal-fired power plant and also even the natural gas one. So how do you handle this cost mismatch at the beginning issue? Assuming there will be people willing to buy in, even the cost is slightly higher or a lot higher, can you share a little bit about the thinking? I mean, our target is to be cost-powered with everyone. So, I mean, it's not going to be more expensive to buy a Northwalth battery than another battery. And then, of course, renewable energy will be less costly over time. But now, as where we are now, we're doing a lot of investments to meet also the sustainability. So I think that we're targeting cost power on market and then we are being a premium supplier in the sustainability space. Yeah. Great. Thanks. Terrific. I think this is a good time to also ask Kirsten to return to the stage and we can have our joint discussion. Kirsten? Yeah. Hi. I hope you can see me. Yes, perfectly. So let me get started here. As I mentioned, there were really a lot of questions and quite a number of them deal with this one central point, which I like to get your thoughts. So in both of your talks, you emphasized the recovery of the base metal and the recovery of lithium, of course. And I think, Kirsten, in your talk, you also shared BSF strategy to focus on nickel manganese cobalt chemistry. And I think Emma, that was also implied in your presentation as well. So one thing that is a hot topic, at least among academics and other materials folks is what does the future look like if we are shifting a bit more to iron base chemistry. So for our audience, I think many of you are aware of increasing announcements by OEMs to look at lithium-ion phosphate as a candidate for mass electric vehicles. And naturally, I think from a recycling perspective, one has to worry that the value of the recycled good is quite a bit less with lithium-ion phosphate. So I'd like to get both of your thoughts on how the recycling roadmap and strategies will change if we start seeing a gradual shift toward iron base chemistry from, say, nickel rigid chemistry. Maybe I can ask Kirsten to weigh in first. Yeah, I think this question has two aspects more or less. First of all, how can LFP recycle in an economical way? That's the first question. The second question, how much LFP do we see in the future? And of course, we are looking into that and also running studies towards that. So our view of the future battery mix is that LFP will have its fair stake in EVs. It will be very much dominate the stationary storage market. However, the bigger portion will be the high nickel rich chemistry. The performance opportunities in the nickel rich chemistry we see as much higher. And also, when you calculate costs in a way that you say, OK, what are the costs per kilowatt hour, this performance will also help to bring costs down and that respect. However, LFP is there. LFP will be there also in the future. And that's why it's also, of course, important to look into LFP recycling. And of course, we don't do that. I cannot share the process. However, we see good opportunities to integrate it in our value chains. Hi, Kirsten and Emma both gave great talks. So I have one question on a bigger scheme and saying, well, recycling actually needs to do. There's another thing to change the equation a little bit more is on the whole sustainability argument to say, hey, what if we have our battery life so much longer to the extent I think in the audience, there's one person asking about second use. So then let's say 30 years, 40 years lifetime, right? Then you can reuse that actually maybe once, maybe a few times. What do you think about this? This will actually release the strain on frequent recycling. Have you guys looked into this? I think both of you are doing, you know, the materials and not what is doing the battery cell level. So building a very long lifetime, never die. Emma, do you want to take it first? Kirsten, a little bit later. Sure. I'm happy to start off with this. I think that what we will see is a little bit of both. I think you will always strive for a very long and sustainable first life of a battery. And that's of course in everyone's target. I think that there is one aspect to it though. You want to use your investment. So I mean, it's important that when we talk about long life, that we talk about a lot of cycles that we're not talking about, you know, cars not being utilized and therefore have a long life. But in general, I hope, and I think we will see all of it. There will be a recycling stream from, you know, recalls, there will be recycling streams from scrap. There will be recycling streams for from crashed cars. And for short and shorter lifetimes for whatever reason. And then there will also hopefully be a very large portion that has a very long life. I don't know if we can promise 40 years, but it's going to be. I'm stretching that too much. I'm stretching that life too much. I really, I really expect to see some long life. And we see that a lot that the batteries are very highly performing and also quite a high mileage on the, on the EVs, which is very good. And I support that actually rather than having a low utilization in a second life grid application where the battery is basically landfill for, for a non fit for purpose kind of application. So that's my view. And I think that, yeah, that's just how it will be. And, and, and we, and we hope that that will actually end up like that. On the question on the NFC, I fully agree with, and the versus LFP, I fully agree with Kirsten that it's, it's going to be a space where you have one circular flow for the LFP batteries and another for the NFC. And I think that NFC, at least in Europe, where we are used to very highly performing vehicles will be the dominating industry chemistry going forward. Yeah, let me also comment on yeast question. Not much to add it on my end. I think every company is working for, for a long life of batteries. And that's really an important goal. However, at the end of their lives, there will be still the need for recycling. So that is nothing you can ignore. However, the first goal is really improving the life of the batteries. And now in the time of the growing industry in a time where really we build up capacities and so on. I think it will really take a while until we reach the steady state and there's much room for innovation and improvement over the old value chain, but I can only support what Emma said. Well, back to you. Yeah, I want to actually build off this question a bit more. Kristen and Emma, as you were discussing, you know, steady state, I actually just came to this realization is kind of a very unusual transient, because now you have the situation where demand is rising sharply. So certainly the amount of the recycled vehicles and batteries will not catch up. And I think her saying you projected 2030 or so until that comes to some sort of initial equilibrium. But another contribution, of course, as Emma mentioned, is now there's massive built up of capacity. So yield is lower. Scrap rate is high. So you have this kind of initial hump of all of this scrapped batteries and powders and packs that you have to get rid of. So and hopefully not too many recalls in that case, but that will also be part of the equation. So how are you projecting this dynamics is there's various pushing pools on the supply of materials going into the recycling facility. It is a market that is pretty difficult to predict. And the same goes for the actually the EV market development as a whole. And all that we see is that whenever we try to do a prediction, we underestimate and we underestimate heavily the sort of the demand. We underestimate the capacity build out the available investment and so on. And I think that we just have to take it as we go. The only thing I know is that if we don't prepare for dealing with all the waste streams and doing something good at it, that's going to be the most costly alternative. So we're just going to have to be having a readiness for making sure that we can offer all the batteries that come back for whatever recycling need to be fed into the next generation of EVs. Yeah, and we also don't have said crystal ball. We do just our best to predict. We adjust our predictions always. Yeah. And we are going ahead and and trying to do the best to establish everything and to take everything into account. However, you have to learn while you are walking and that's the only opportunity. That sounds great. Yes. E back to you. Yeah. I'm teaching a battery class this quarter. Will and I usually teach this class alternate. You know, sometimes you teach sometimes I do. So I have about more than 70 graduate students and just better because this is huge class. I'm trying to think. Do you want to say something to hear to our students. On the recycling part. So what are the technologies still missing. I think personally you're tall. You keep mentioning we need medium extraction innovation which I completely agree. And then you point to the kind of three things to say well we need innovation in this area. And to motivate our students there will be a lot of students I think at best right now in the audience listening. Custom do you want to start. At least I can try as a first of all. You know, it's a field and you see it you see it also from the regulations that the expectations on listening recycling is below the expectations of the other elements because the technology is not as mature. However, so there are good technologies out there. And oh no, there are good technologies more or less coming more pronounced. And really this is an area where we need innovation. Another area is maybe the topic of direct recycling. Also there are many things ongoing. Direct recycling of scrap is probably more easy or for sure more easy than direct recycling of a used battery after after 10 years where a lot of things happen. And a third area and this is also very much now as a chemist view is is all about purification technologies because you handle the whole periodic table there and there are still combinations which are difficult to separate. Yeah, that's that is a chemical point and of course engineering especially in the mechanical part. Yeah, also in the mechanical part there are things ongoing, which also need to have good engineers in that respect. When I think through it, I'm sure I will think of from Noah, but yeah, that should be enough for now. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I agree. And I mean, first of all, I want to say to the 70 students that you're all welcome to Sweden. That's very strong. We need to give some to Kirsten also. Exactly. In this space, I think that I think that this is going to be one of the most interesting areas. We're building a completely new base industry. We're building a full circularity in that from the beginning. It's amazing. We're building from some kind of a communication system for the collection schemes. We need everything from this marking, labeling and that kind of scheme. We need a standardization of the life cycle assessment structures, validation of that to be much more intelligent than it is as of now. We need data qualification in that. We need, on the chemical side, the things that are mentioned, but also, yes, direct recycling, very interesting. We need the design for recycling schemes also on the very chemical pieces. So not only on, I mean, when people talk about design for recycling, it's a lot about removing glue or whatever, but it's a lot of in the chemistry as well. I mean, we can go on for hours to discuss what's needed in terms of future development for this. We're just in the very beginning, and I see 10 years ahead of pretty amazing development going forward and innovation, and it's just going to be very thrilling to see when the new generation comes into this, our educated knows about the industry and perfectly fit for supporting us here. Yeah, thank you. Well, back to you. Am I in Kirsten? I need to go and moderate an event in 830 local time, so I'll let Will entertain you. I will probably go back and watch the video later for the rest of the conversation. Thank you so much. Thank you, Yip. So, Kirsten, I want to go a little deeper on the chemistry side of things. You know, you talked about leaching, co-precipitation, and other well-practiced process, mostly from the mining industry. I noticed you didn't talk about sorbin cycles or electrochemical purification as much. Are those at a sort of an earlier point in development, or are there big barriers in terms of costs that would make them impractical at the recycling scale? Can you maybe touch a bit on what the new innovations that we should be looking at, especially in academia? Okay, yeah, I would say, first of all, this is really a very agile field, and there are many, many interesting things coming up. And, yeah, I did not go too deep into the industry, into the chemical details. However, adsorption is also a very well-known technology in principle. It always depends on the specific materials. And when I'm talking about, for example, impurity removal, adsorbents will have their role. Yeah, and they are, of course, great opportunities because not everything is solved there. Also, electrochemistry. There are also very good ideas and processes out there. And, yeah, also reiterating what Emma said before when it goes to sustainable energy, and that's a very, very important part of the transformation. Of course, you think much more in electrochemical terms or electrochemistry has a kind of revival, and that's why this is also something very much to look on, and there are a lot of processes out there, very interesting processes. And, yeah, whatever you can do in academia to add more fundamental understanding towards that, and really understanding what's coming there, these challenges, and what does it do with the whole periodic tables you are managing in the battery recycling field, that is for sure for off-value. Thank you for the encouragement, Kirsten. My pleasure. Emma, any thoughts on this? I fully agree, and I think that, I mean, you need to have, when we bring in people, they normally think that they're going to work on a topic, and then with their fundamental knowledge and with their background and experience, it actually, when they come into the team, things happen, and what I think is already Kirsten mentioned, and what we see all the time is that the disruptive solutions that we find now in the chemical field, they normally have been applied somewhere. So if you have an experience or if you read something that can be from a widely different application, that could be exactly the point, and the thing that you bring up here, and that becomes the one solution for this specific application. But even if we think that we are very mature now and we are very happy about the development we have, I still think that there will be a lot of disruptions here, and it's about bundling process steps so that you can bring down the capital investment. I think that's going to be one key thing that I would like to ask the students to really focus on if they would have that opportunity. Emma, this is a very interesting point to us as well. You know, typically we're talking about oil, gas industry, chemical industry, and even mining industry. I think one is used to dealing with a very stable input to the process. For example, if you're extracting lithium from brine, you can customize your process for that reservoir of brine and same for oil and gas as well. But I think it's my understanding that with recycling, this really could be variable. I mean, even just from 10 years ago and today, the feed is changing. And no doubt in the next 10 years, the feed will change as well. We just touch upon the particular uncertainty, for example, with respect to iron. So how does one develop this agile process and yet have to be flexible because the feed is changing? It could also change from shipment to shipment, especially if you're dealing with a recycling of packs. This is something that really intrigues me as a technical challenge of dealing with this fluctuations. Exactly. And there's really two ways to do it. Either you work batch or you work with feed forward. And if you talk to someone in the wastewater industry, you know, they would have maybe a few cubic meters per second of something coming in. And this is a very common challenge if you go to the waste or wastewater industry that this is exactly what you deal with. You just have to have some kind of way of dosing and managing the process. I think that we have a golden opportunity now since we do not deal with that kind of volumes yet. So the development can actually happen in batches in the R&D to really ensure that we can adopt and make the perfect process. Because it's not only about purity removal, it's also about managing whatever impurities that you get out and to find an offset of that so that you're not building a sort of waste mountain on the side. So it's a complex environment to be in and to build up these streams. So Emma, let me further add another related question. So I think what you're saying is you really need to know what's coming in, right? So then you are advocating for a scenario where so you could not just buy the black mass from someone because then you don't know what went into it. But then if you have more knowledge about the composition of the feed, then that can be used as an input in a batch or a batch-like process, then you customize your reactors for that particular one. Did I understand you correctly there? And I mean, it's normal in any operation that on the waste in the waste industry that you have a specification, even if it is a waste. On the other hand, even within those specifications you will have variations. So you either manage that with analyzing and then setting up a batch process or you have some kind of feed forward in a continuous process where you know that this is how much of this and that metal I will have to precipitate. So then I have to dose this and that much of this chemical. That's how you can deal with it. But it needs sophisticated engineering. That's for sure. Yeah, and maybe to add on that, sorting is absolutely key. Whatever you can sort out in early stages that makes your life so much easier and also precise improvements, I would say, on every step, as I said earlier, when you achieve a better sorting during the black mass production that reduces complexity in the hydro metallurgy. So there is really every step where you can optimize. And that's why our philosophy, this end-to-end recycling is really something which will be crucial for success. And yeah, I understood from Emma that you're following that end-to-end approach also very much. Yeah. And Kirsten and Emma are, I think Europe is ahead in the world when it comes to this regulatory framework. So am I correct to understand that soon there will be just like plastic bottles in the US will have, you know, one, two, three, four, five to label the kind of plastic use. Are we pretty close to that level where the recyclers would be able to look at a symbol and say, okay, we'll put this into pile number one, pile number two and so forth. How far away are we from that in terms of recycling? I don't know if you want to start, but I mean, in general, so there are two things here. One is the passport, and that's the labeling of the actual batteries. And that's a little bit framing towards what you mentioned now. And then it's also the labeling of the footprint and the sort of the sustainability quality, which is, I don't know if you've seen that, but you know when you label on the refrigerated, the energy profile of the system, something resembling to that. So the idea is first, and for everyone to understand, where does this battery come from? What does it contain and where does it go? The thing you mentioned. But then there's also the end customer being comfortable that I can actually know what's in this battery. I know what's kind of sustained or environmental burden that I'm buying into here. And that I think is really, that's really something that is disruptive on a regulatory perspective that I really admire the European commission for putting together. Yeah. And what is also key really to work over the value chain again, that's industrial market. And that's why really the partners over the value chain, the OEMs, all people contributing to the value chain, are talking to each other, interacting with each other. And yeah, really this is absolutely the key to really make that fly. This is a fantastic discussion. Am I correct? We are coming to the end of the event. I want to pose one final question, a higher level question, which is China. China is where most lithium-ion batteries are being produced, where substantial recycling is already taking place. But yet it has a very different regulatory framework, environmental considerations, and so forth. I'd like to have the both of you comment, what are your lessons learned from China by looking at it? I know, Kirsten, that you BSF, a very substantial footprint in China across its operations. So maybe you can take the lead on this and share with us a little bit what lessons have China taught us in terms of recycling. Yeah, let me give there also a very personal view. So what my first lesson learned from China is, they just did it to some extent. They went on early on and started to develop technology, to adjust technology and so on. And with that they come really quite away, which I also personally find impressive. And definitely we can also learn from the technology which is developed there, combine it also with what we can do in Europe and use their experience and build on that. And yeah, for sure, also very much looking into that direction. I don't know what about you, Emma? Oh, but I agree. I mean, this has been set up and recycling and battery manufacturing has been key in China up until now already. And I mean, we have to acknowledge that this is going on. I think that where we can differentiate ourselves in Europe is mainly through one sustainability across all materials across the entire supply chain, having a little bit of that coverage. And also two, making use of most of the elements and maybe sacrificing, investing a little bit more where it's not short-term, that profitable, but more long-term building a sustainable base industry again in Europe for this EV battery industry. Emma and Kirsten, thank you so much for this lively discussion. I think many insights here for myself and also for our audience. I'd like to thank you both again. I just want to add a personal thanks. You know, as academics we talked about a lot of things, but you, Kirsten and Emma are practicing it and deploying it. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, this is very, very challenging. Recycling will happen, circularity will be achieved. And I think it will be because of people like yourselves and your companies doing this at the frontline. So we thank you very much for taking the lead on doing so. And I hope you also enjoyed the discussions today. So Kaylee and Evan, if I can have the closing slides please. So this mark our final symposium for the year. For those in the U.S., I bid you a happy Thanksgiving next week and hopefully you have a relaxing time with your family. And then we look forward to welcoming you back at the first of the year in 2022 where we'll have another exciting series of speakers to educate us further on energy storage. And with that, I'd like to thank everyone for tuning in today and have a good day.