 Voice For Work return to beastsmith. Welcome to the 23rd meeting. The health and sport committee in 2017, could ask everyone in the room to ensure that mobile phones are switched to silent, please. We have apologies from Miles Briggs and Alec L winter. The first item on our agenda is our final evidence session on sport for everyone, and I welcome to the committee Aileen Campbell, minister for public health and sport. And David Grave head of active Scotland division Scottish Government. He could invite the minister to make an opening statement, and I apologise for yn cael ei ddwylliannol? No, that's okay. Thank you, convener, and as you noted, I'm joined by Derek Grieve, who's head of active Scotland division. As the committee will be aware, I'm absolutely clear about the importance of sport and physical activity. My ministerial portfolio, Public Health and Sport, signifies a deliberate clear and connected approach that exploits the benefits of physical activity and sport to improve the health of the people of Scotland. We want to create a culture in which healthy behaviours are the norm right through people's lives. The Scottish Government's vision is of a Scotland where more people are more active more often. Sport has an important role to play in realising that vision. In Scotland, Sports Scotland are developing a world-class sporting system at all levels, connecting sport in schools and education, club and community sport and performance sport. That system has helped Scottish athletes achieve huge success at a number of levels, Commonwealth Games, Olympics, Paralympics, national, European and world championships. Through their successes, Scottish athletes are inspiring others on their own sporting pathway and providing the rest of us with immense pride and motivation to get more active ourselves. Through our investment in facilities, we are providing participation opportunities for people and communities across Scotland. Since 2007, Sports Scotland has invested over £168 million in supporting local clubs, local authorities, sports governing bodies and other organisations to deliver a wide range of new and upgraded sports facilities. The recently published Scottish household survey showed participation in all physical activity in sport was slightly increased from 72 per cent in 2007 to 79 per cent in 2016. Although we would like all like to see higher numbers, I am encouraged by the increase in numbers of children who now meet the CMO's physical activity guidelines, but we recognise, of course, that there is still more to do. That is why, in order to better evidence the impact that sport has across our communities, my officials are working directly with Scottish sporting governing bodies to help to improve their data collection and, in turn, help to measure the impact of their outcomes against the Active Scotland outcomes framework. To ensure that children from all backgrounds have access to sport and physical activity, this Government has invested £11.6 million in supporting schools meet our PE commitment of two hours or periods per week. This is up from 10 per cent in 2004-5 to 98 per cent in 2016. This is also backed up by significant investment in active schools. The latest figures from the Active Schools programme, published a couple of weeks ago, show that active schools' participation levels have increased by 52 per cent over the last five years, with 6.8 million visits recorded during the academic year 2016-17. Our ambition to create a more active Scotland was why, in our manifesto, we gave commitment to making Scotland the first daily mile nation. Getting the nation active requires action right across Government, and that is why we have put in place record investment in walking and cycling and will continue to do so for the rest of this Parliament. That will be doubled to £80 million in 2018-19. Active travel will improve health outcomes for individuals, improving both mental and physical health. Those initiatives are named to assist people from across Scotland to become more physically active, as well as integrate with their local community. I know that a big part of the committee's focus has been on accessibility of the school estate. We know that there are thousands of sports facilities in the overall school estate, including sports halls, pitches, multi-use outdoor areas, swimming pools, running tracks and tennis courts available for community use, but we also know more can be done to maximise the use of this resource and this investment. As I mentioned in my response to your phase 1 report, I would be fine to find it really useful and informative if the committee could share any evidence it has collected on these issues so that we can take action as appropriate to build on the ongoing work that we already do with local authorities to unlock barriers to access. Finally, convener, I would like to put on record that without an army of volunteers, a lot of sport and physical activity would not take place. The dedication and time put in by so many to create opportunities and nurture new talent is the lifeblood of our sporting heritage and future. It is not only with sports clubs where volunteers are vital. The Active Schools programme is only possible with more than 19,000 volunteers who deliver sport and physical activity in their communities. There is a lot of good work on going, but we are live to the challenges and welcome the committee's work in this so that we can collectively create the country that we all seek, one that is healthier and more active. Of course, convener, I am happy to take any questions that I know the committee will have on that. Thank you, convener. Good morning, minister, good morning, Mr Greith. I can start off with a baseline here. A lot of this is around the Scottish household survey. I am interested in understanding whether, in that household survey, those who are on waiting lists to join a sports club are perhaps looking to be active and not yet active, or those who, in other words, are a capacity issue that we need to address, and those who would like to, but they cannot access the sports that they would want to do, the choice element. As a starter for 10, if you like, a baseline of how deep the household survey went. The household survey is the gold standard approach to assessing the activity levels of the country, but, alongside that, as I said in opening remarks, we have also asked, I have asked my instructor and my officials to work with our governing bodies to help them to understand that full picture of activity and to help the governing bodies to understand their own members as well. That is a bit of work that is on-going to make sure that we can help to tell that full picture around the numbers of people who are members of a sports club, or the numbers that, as you say, might have joined for the first time, and those who might have been inactive in the past who are now wanting to become a bit more active. That is a bit of work that we are doing with our governing bodies to help to understand the points that you are making much more clearly. I think that what I am interested in is whether or not there are clubs that are at capacity. I know a lot of anecdotal evidence, including my own kids, would like to join a club, but it cannot because it is at capacity. I am just wondering whether or not those waiting lists are included in the household survey, because that would be an important factor in terms of wanting to increase physical activity in the country. I would imagine that that would be evidence that would be useful to that particular survey. That work that we are doing with the governing bodies is really important, because that gives us that fuller picture. We also understand that there have been spikes in interest in particular sports, particularly at points when there have been high-profile events such as the Commonwealth Games. Of course, that will be linked to the capacity issues that you have been looking at through volunteers and the volunteering opportunities to help to deliver those opportunities. That is why our programme for government, for instance, we noted that we want to develop volunteering opportunities far more visibly and strategically, which will have an impact not just on sport but on a whole range of things that happen within civic life in the country. Derek, do you want to say anything? Beyond the household survey, the governing bodies to sport are far, obviously, much closer to the capacity issues of each club than we are, and it is part of the governing bodies' plan for developing the sport. They have on-going discussions with Sport Scotland, particularly around supporting the increase of capacity of clubs, not least through volunteers, as the minister mentioned, so increasing coaching, also facility access and the like. The capacities are monitored very closely by governing bodies of sport and it is in forms of thinking on local and regional development and part of the on-going discussions between the governing body and Sport Scotland itself. I would also be quite interested if you have looked at the sports that are perhaps increasing their numbers, whether they are the easy access sports. By that I mean that the barriers to participation are not high, and the cost to participation is not high. For example, if you want to go for a run, you need a pair of training shoes, if you want to go sailing, you need a boat. Have we looked at comparing easy access sports to those that are not? In my strategic guidance letter to Sport Scotland, we also have an emphasis on making sure that there is accessible opportunity to deliver on equalities. Whether that analysis has been explicitly done, I am not sure, although there is a lot of work to try and unpick and unlock some of the barriers to those sports that are outlined. However, the community hubs that we have across the country provide opportunities to allow people to try sports that they might not ordinarily have done. I know that, for instance, sailing in Maryhill is one of the opportunities offered in the canals in Maryhill. There are sailing opportunities there, so there are imaginative, inative ways in which local focus groups that deliver what might ordinarily be perceived as past times for those with much more resource have been created for people who might not have that same disposable income. There has been opportunity provided there through community hubs, through innovative work and through using local assets. In the case of Maryhill, it is around the canal network that has been improved significantly over time. Young people get an opportunity to sail and to experience sporting opportunities on the water there, which might not ordinarily have been there for them had we not had a strategic approach through our community hubs and through the assistance that we give to our governing bodies and support through a variety of other things. For instance, cashback. I completely appreciate that. I was not suggesting that everybody in Glasgow went into a Steve Redden game eight boat. I was really looking forward to looking at how easy it is to access and should we focus on certain sports rather than others? That is really where I was coming from. I was not suggesting that. The other thing is that for young people in particular, the active schools network is really important because that has given opportunities to other sports. It is not just necessarily football, which might be the obvious go-to for reasons that it is our national game. There are so many people who watch it, enjoy it and play it, but the active schools network provides opportunity to testers and the chance for young people to experience other sport and other activities. The reason that I picked the Maryhill example was just to illustrate that that is not always the easier things. It is not just about providing walking opportunities for young people who might not have the resource to enjoy sailing. There are examples out there that show that there is a wide variety of opportunities provided that there are the right conditions, the right connections across a community, the right people leading those things that provide that special opportunity and chance. That is interlinked with our youth work approach. The uniform groups and the youth link articulate what their youth work providers are giving in terms of opportunity to young people across the country. Cashback is also providing funding and a clear link around the proceeds of crime and providing positive past times for young people. One of the most stark figures in the 2016 Scottish household study was the 18 per cent gap between the most and least deprived communities when it comes to participation in sport and other physical activities. According to the survey, 87 per cent of people from the most well-off background took part in some sort of physical or sport activity compared to 69 per cent of people from the poorest background. What are the Scottish Government doing to close that activity gap? I mentioned that in my response to Brian Whittle. We are very clear in our direction to Sport Scotland if we want to see a focus on the communities that you have identified. That is why the next iteration of community sports hubs will have a much keener focus on tackling areas of deprivation to ensure that there is opportunity and that we can nudge people in those areas towards becoming more active. I do not think that any of us want to see those statistics improved. We want to ensure that there is opportunity for all to take part in sport because we know the transformative impact that sport can have on our communities and on people's lives and in their on-going wellbeing throughout their life. We absolutely want to reduce that inequality and make sure that we provide more opportunity for everyone regardless of their income. Will the Government set in targets of organisers such as Sport Scotland to increase participation specifically from the most deprived backgrounds? If you look at the national outcomes at the moment, you talk about increasing physical activity and you mentioned the figures in your opening comment, but there was nothing specifically there about the gap between the most deprived and the most well-off areas. At the moment, Sport Scotland is giving funding to do what it does, but there is nothing linked to that funding when it comes to tackling issues in the most deprived areas. My strategic guidance letter explicitly says that I want them to tackle inequalities. The community sports hubs, the next iteration of those and the next seven that they are taking forward will be in areas of deprivation to specifically and explicitly address the concern that you have, one that I would share, one that I want to tackle and one that I want to close. One of the biggest barriers to people from the most deprived areas is the cost of participating in certain sports. Given the fact that a large number of the activities in sports centres were provided by local government, do you think that the reduction in funding for local government, along with the council tax freeze at the time, has had an impact on the cost of those activities? I think that we probably would take a different analysis around the local government settlement and that we believe that we have given the local government a fair settlement to deliver the services that they are charged with delivering. There is opportunity, as you know, on going at the next budget discussions around the different ways in which Scotland might use its powers to increase the money that we get into our coffers to deliver the public services that we hold dear, so there is opportunity for us all to take part in that discussion and that conversation that we are going to be having across the country, but certainly from our perspective we have given local government a fair settlement. Of course, there are challenges and fiscal challenges for us and the Scottish Government as well around our own budget suffering reduction. It is challenging, but that is why we want to make sure that we maximise the investment that we have already put into our sporting infrastructure, increasing the facilities that we have, the world-class facilities that we now have, the fact that we have, as a direct result of the Commonwealth Games, a legacy of community hubs across the country that we have active schools and 32 local authorities that are given people opportunity, young people opportunity to take part in sport. Those in particular that active schools would cite that because that shows a greater uptake and a greater degree of participation in areas of deprivation, which shows that that investment is taken forward and led by sports Scotland is delivering on the issue that you raised and you correctly raised because we want to see more people get opportunities to take part in sport and active schools are helping us to reduce that gap. The most recent SPICE briefing on local government showed that there was a 6.2 per cent real terms for the local government revenue budget from 2010-11 to 2016-17. The figures are there for everyone to see and a consequence of that is right across Scotland. Local authorities had to look at other areas for raising income and clearly one of those areas was to increase charges for a whole host of services, including sporting activities. I am just wondering whether the Government has done any analysis on the impact of the budget settlement for local government and the rise in charges on participation levels, particularly from the most deprived communities? Again, we believe that we have given local government a fair settlement. If you are drawing those conclusions again, that is part of the work that you have uncovered yourself. If that is what you are seeing explicitly linked to, by all means, let us see that analysis as well. However, I am saying to you that what we are doing is recognising that there is a requirement to make sure that people from deprived communities get opportunity. That is why we have, in my strategic guidance letter to Sport Scotland, asked them to focus on equality and through the community sportscubs to tackle and focus on areas of deprivation. That is why the very clear commitment that Sport Scotland has to active schools is delivering more keenly for those in deprived areas where the uptake is higher. The local government settlement is challenging. The local government settlement is utterly catastrophic. I have been talking to local authorities in the past couple of days and they have shown me the documents that they have to assess potential cuts to budgets. Those documents are piled at this high. Youth work has gone, community centres have closed, libraries have closed, swimming pools have closed. It is utterly catastrophic and devastating for communities. In my view, it is to break down a society, which is what we are overseeing at the moment. That absolutely is. If you think that that is not the case, then go and look at the potential cuts that local authorities are having to implement. They are utterly catastrophic and it will be the most deprived and poorest communities that will suffer the most. If you have not done the assessment of that, is that up to the committee to do the assessment of the impact of those cuts on sport and participation? Is the Government not doing any assessment of that? I think that what I have said very clearly is that we recognise that there are challenges across making sure that those areas of deprivation have access to opportunity, which is why I have charged our sporting agency to look at what more it can do to tackle inequality. I specifically cited the active schools approach, which is currently delivering across 32 local authorities opportunities for our young people, which has seen higher participation from those communities that are in areas of deprivation. Again, though, you seem to forgive me, convener, for making assumptions. Perhaps you have done your own analysis in which case that would be useful to see that, but of course we recognise the challenges under which local authorities are working. That is why we continue to work with our local authority partners, which is why we work with our governing bodies, which is why we intend to maximise the impact of the resources that have been put in to improve the infrastructure across the country. That is why we want to continue that work, because we recognise that there are challenges. We recognise that we need to do more to get more people active, but that is why we have particularly asked Sport Scotland to have a focus on areas of deprivation and to ensure that there is equality of access for people. Sport Scotland spent almost £12 million on performance sport last year and £10.7 million on clubs and communities. Is that the right balance in terms of encouraging more people from the grass routes to get involved in sport? Sport Scotland has two roles. It has the role to ensure that support is given to our elite performers and to be leaders in terms of activity and to develop a sporting infrastructure that allows for people to take part in sport. It is not just Sport Scotland that delivers funding for sport. The balance is that 95 per cent of resources that go into sport are done on community level and 5 per cent on elite. In terms of Sport Scotland's budget, is it the right balance that more is spent on performance sport than it is on clubs and communities? I am telling you that 95 per cent of the total money that is spent in sport is spent on community infrastructure. In terms of Sport Scotland's budget, is it the right balance that they spend £11.8 million on performance sport and £10.7 million on clubs and communities? Is that the right balance? Again, I will gently reiterate that it is not just Sport Scotland that is in charge of putting forward opportunity for sport. 95 per cent is spent on community-based activity in sporting opportunities and 5 per cent is spent on elite sport. That balance to me feels about right, because I think that if I was to cut elite sport that meant that we did not see any elite performers doing well in some of the big events on a global stage, I would also be held before this committee asking why we had not supported our athletes. That was particularly asking about Sport Scotland's funding. I will clarify if the minister agrees that ensuring that we have elite performers achieving international competition is also exceptionally important in encouraging people to participate in sport. Absolutely. There are a number of different role models. There are community role models within our sports hubs. People are taking fantastic work at that very local level by being role models themselves and leaders within the community. Likewise, the fact that we see Scottish athletes performing on the world stage doing well provides a sense of great deal of pride but also inspires the next generation to recognise that they can achieve it if they put in the hard-working endeavour. What is also transformative is the fact that those athletes are going out and trying to ensure that they are part of that inspirational message. They are going out to schools, communities and talking about their own resilience—those good lessons in life that our children and young people require so that they can go into emerging to adulthood and be successful individuals themselves. Absolutely. There is a real role model element to our elite performers as well. They do that work and they are charged with that work and they deliver on that responsibility that they have. I wanted to ask about the legacy from the Commonwealth Games, which might be felt all around the country. We saw some evidence from Murray area, which stated that they weren't so sure that they had gained very much benefit from the Commonwealth Games and yet, next door in Highland, where I live, I know that people could reasonably easily identify some of the benefits that they had gained from the Commonwealth Games. I wonder if you could tell us a little bit more about what the Government did to ensure that the legacy was felt country-wide. Absolutely. The community hubs has been one very tangible legacy. The expansion of community hubs across the country is a great success story, bringing people together at a community level to develop opportunities in many parts of the country. Of course, we have ambitions to increase the number of community hubs across the country. Moreover, there has been legacy in terms of the improved infrastructure across the country, which will be an on-going and lasting legacy, to allow people to have the chance to go and use facilities in the country. There are also other things. For instance, the legacy 2014 active places fund was a £10 million fund that was launched in 2012. Through five investment rounds, a total of 188 projects were supported across all 32 local authorities. All local authorities have had some kind of benefit, and legacy was felt in their area in an attempt to ensure that it was not just a Glasgow Games, but a country-wide game and that there was legacy across the country. There is quite a strong story to tell about the legacy that has been left post Commonwealth Games and continues to be felt across the country. I did hear a lovely story from Russ Sutherland rugby club, who were very delighted with their rugby posts that they got from the Commonwealth Games. They donated their rugby posts to further north in the country. They are certainly in Highland, with some identifiable and tangible kit. Can I ask about active transport? I know that it is not your portfolio, but in terms of health, I was absolutely delighted to see the doubling of funding to active transport in the programme for government. It will have a huge impact in the Highlands, and I am sure all over Scotland, but particularly in the Highlands, where we see that cycling is a really important sport. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Yes, absolutely. I am keen to always make sure that, not just in terms of my sporting portfolio, but the public health element of my portfolio benefits from that investment. That significant investment that is going to be put in between now and the end of the Parliament into active travel is important. It is important in terms of Yusof's targets and ambitions that he has within his transport portfolio, but likewise there is complete read across into my own portfolio. There has been real success around recreational walking, but that will be helped and aided by the fact that we are going to be investing significantly into an active travel infrastructure and investing significantly in that. It is all about that ability for people once they leave their house to have opportunity and choices that are easy for them to make. That investment will be significant. There is a long way to go. We have seen some great progress made already around people cycling to work and walking to work and feeling safe in doing that, but that will go a long way to improving that infrastructure and allowing people to make those choices and having that choice to be made, as opposed to default position and society and decisions being made around the needs of the car. As a committee, during the inquiry, we were privileged to go along and visit some of the community sporting hubs. It is fair to say that all of us were really impressed by the work that we saw there. I was fortunate enough to visit the Phoenix Centre in Ivan McKee's constituency, and we went to the community sports hub in Drumchapel. From looking at the papers, a lot of the funding that comes to a community sport hub comes from Lottery. Certainly, Sports Scotland has raised with the committee their concerns about reductions in Lottery funding. I was wondering if the minister would tell us if she has had any discussions with the Westminster Government about Lottery funding, future sustainability of Lottery funding and any reassurances about how Sports Scotland can maintain the amount of money that it gets from the Lottery? That is a concern around that reduction in Lottery revenues that I would absolutely share. It is something that we have attempted to engage with the UK Government. I wrote to the UK Government in the spring of this year, and I have yet to have a response back, and that was around to examine the sustainability of the model, to work out what more strategically can be done to increase revenues. I think that there has been a developing landscape of many different Lotteries out there now that reduces the national Lottery's impact. It is a real pressing issue, and we have yet to hear back from the UK Government despite attempts to try and secure a meeting to discuss that, which I think would be in our best interest to work on together. What support would the minister be looking for from the committee in terms of expediting a reply from the Westminster Government? Particularly given the concerns that have been raised here, both from community organisations and from organisations such as Sports Scotland? I do not think that this is a genuinely made attempt to try and work out what can be done to try and stop the reduction, to try and work out what can strategically be done to reverse that reduction in revenue. That will not just benefit us here in Scotland, but a benefit that would be felt across the board. It is also not owned by any one political party. If the committee is so minded to add a bit of weight to that call, I would absolutely welcome and encourage that, because it is in all of our interests that, regardless of party, we all share a desire to make sure that we see our community supported, that we see sport supported as well. A lot of that historically has now been through national Lottery, so when there is a reduction there, we need to try and work out what more we can do to try and stop that and alleviate that. Absolutely, if the committee is so minded, I would absolutely welcome that support. You convener and good morning. I am sure that we all welcome the doubling of the active travel budget, but we have to bear in mind that it was just hovering over the 1 per cent previously. Undoubtedly, that does make your own portfolio. It helps to deliver an active Scotland, but I would like to look at recreational walking. If we take recreational walking out of the official stats, participation has remained static at around 50 per cent. The minister's views on why we are not seeing that increased participation at the same levels in other forms of activity. If recreational walking has increased markedly, could it be because that is probably one of the least expensive things that you can get involved in? I would also question why you would want to take out walking out of that. As our active Scotland outcomes framework indicates, it is about activity. Activity being walking, why would you take that out of the equation? It is not just by accident that there has been an increase in recreational walking. There has been a strategic approach to try and increase the number of people who take part in recreational walking through investment and paths for all through our strategic approach to walking. It is not just by accident that we have seen increases. There has been a deliberate approach and attempt to increase the numbers, but I would find it confusing that you would want to take out walking into what would be an important part of the activity story. I absolutely would not want to take out walking. I am just wondering what lessons can be learned about the success that has been achieved in the increased walking. I am just wondering too if the increase in walking has come at the cost of decreased participation in other areas. I think probably walking is one that, like you say, walking is an easy thing. It is about making sure that we can let people know that walking is something that they can take reasonably cheaply. They do not need fancy goods, they do not need fancy footwear or sports gear. Making sure that the infrastructure is there and right around about people to support that choice is important, which is why, again, the active travel budget going up is important as well, because it allows people to have that choice on their doorstep when they leave their house that they can take and make that choice. Is there more to do? Of course, there is more to do. Is there lessons to be learned? There are probably lots of lessons to be learned. I think that, probably around that very steely strategic focus that we had on walking to ensure that more people recognise the pleasure that they can get from the outdoors through walking. I think that I would be disinclined to remove walking from that activity story, because that is something that has so in growth. It is a positive story, and it shows that people are becoming more active. It might not necessarily be through the competitive sports, but it is active nonetheless. That is what we judge ourselves on our success in our active Scotland outcomes framework. I would just like to put on the record that I do not think that walking should be excluded. I was simply asking that, when recreational walking is excluded, participation has remained static at around 50 per cent. I should probably draw my register of interest points out that I am a board member of Scottish athletics. The next question that I would like to ask is about the Jog Scotland funding, which was removed and, subsequently, some of it was replaced. There will now be a partnership with another agency, SAMH. It is fair to say that myself and all members of the committee were fairly astonished when the funding was withdrawn in the first place, because that is a programme that has had proven success, breaking down socioeconomic barriers, getting women who have previously been uninvolved in physical activity involved. I suppose that it is a bit like recreational walking. It is one of those things that you can do from your front door. It does not take a lot of equipment. I think that it is a real success story. I just wondered whether the minister could give us an update on that funding. There was support there and funding for Jog Scotland that was designed to try and improve its sustainability. There was also work done by Scottish Government officials to evidence that. There is now that clear story to tell, which is why the collaboration between SAMH is so important, because that has been explicit around the good health benefits that come from jogging. Amongst the additional £2 million that I announced earlier this year to offset the reduction in national lottery, that has helped to ensure that the funding is there for Jog Scotland. Why was it reduced in the first place? What was the reason? There was always support and funding for Jog Scotland, but what was required was work to be put into ensuring the sustainability of Jog Scotland. That is why there was work that was carried out through Government officials to evidence the impact of that. That has now paid dividends, because we can now, as Alison Johnstone articulated, see the very clear evidence link between the health improvements that are felt through jogging and the work that Jog Scotland is doing at a community level across the country. It is an approach through Scottish Athletics that we absolutely welcome. That is exactly the territory that we want our governing bodies to be in. Is it because there was no evidence at that time? No, it was around making sure that there was work requested to ensure the sustainability of the model, which was why there was payment given from Sport Scotland to enable and develop that sustainability work through the Scottish Government to ensure that there was evidence approach. That is now showing that it is a sustainable model, that there is evidence there, and that there is partnership with SamH, which is something that is to be welcomed. I am sorry, but I am not really clear on that. Maybe I am just not understanding how it worked, because I am understanding that the funding was taken away, then there were representations made by various people in the committee and others, and then the funding was put back in via SamH. Is that how it worked? There was a request to develop the sustainability of the model, so there had been one of supplementary investment to Scottish Athletics by Sport Scotland to support the transition of job Scotland into something that was more sustainable. There was also work on going with the Scottish Government to develop the evidence base around the impact of job Scotland. Now we have the development of the partnership between job Scotland and SamH, which is something that is very positive and illustrates that link of activity-improving health outcomes. I want to talk a wee bit about the overall measures, but before I get on to that, I just wanted to comment on the interaction earlier on about the funding and the balance between elite and participation. As the convener pointed out, there were two lines from the Sport Scotland budget, but there are only two lines out of seven and represent only a small part of the total spend. Some of the lines are a bit confusing, but if you look at the total spend, 77.5 million of that, about 15 per cent or the 11.9 million that I mentioned was on performing sport. One of the other lines, and there were five other lines there that, based on what you have said, only 5 per cent of the total spend is elite. I am assuming that the vast majority of the other lines being that place is at nearly 20 million, partnerships at 4 million, schools in education at 13 million, et cetera, et cetera. The vast bulk of those will also be, I am assuming, a participation level rather than an elite level. He has also correctly said that if you look at the whole big picture, there is about 495 million spent in sport in total, so when you look at it on that basis, that 11.9 million that was referred to earlier is about 2.4 per cent. Does that tie in with how you see the numbers? The Sport Scotland is one part of the funding picture for sport and activity. There are local authorities and a whole host of other organisations as well, and it is that global total that I would say that 95 per cent is focused on participation community groups. The 5 per cent is also focused on elite performance, and I think that that balance feels right. Sport Scotland takes its responsibility very seriously around how leaders are in not just elite performance, but they also want to be leaders in ensuring that a population can become more active, which is why the active schools investment is also really important, particularly when we know that the biggest take-up has been in areas of deprivation around the active schools, which shows how important it is to provide opportunity in that school-based settling, free of charge to young people. That is fine. It is important to get that on the record because the selective quoting of specific statistics of the whole big picture does not really help us to develop our understanding. Talking about measures, we have obviously got the national outcomes and national performance indicators, which memory has been flat at about 60 per cent, but we have also been talking about the Scottish household survey, which is to get two numbers in there with walking, which is going from 72 up to 79. Without walking, which I agree with you, it does not make a lot of sense to talk about it without walking, but that has been at 50 per cent. Can you cast any light on the difference between those numbers? What is the national performance indicator and what is the household survey and what is different? What do you think is the most accurate reflection of what we are trying to achieve? Aside from that, our active Scotland outcomes framework takes on board the household surface, the health surface, grown-up in Scotland surface and a whole host of other things in an attempt to use that as a way to demonstrate improvement, stability or if it is going the other way, which we would want to reverse. The active Scotland outcome framework takes on board a whole host of different ways in which we collect data and evidence of activity across the country and on the different ages and stages of life. Derek, do you want to add anything more around that? There is no direct comparison between the household survey and the health survey. The data is cut and sliced differently, so the health survey is aggregated at health board level rather than the household survey aggregated at local authority level, so it gives a different way to cut much of the same data, although one does exclude children and one is just adults. That is because one of them has obviously gone up significantly and the other one has kind of been flat, so I don't know if they are measuring different things or obviously they are. Which one should we focus on? That is why we use an active Scotland outcome framework as bringing together all of that plus grown-up in Scotland, which is that longitudinal analysis of children's life and experiences in Scotland. All of that is brought together for our active Scotland outcome framework as well. I guess the large general thrust is that there is still a lot to do to try and get our population a bit more active and nudge them in that right direction. There are encouraging signs around walking, encouraging signs around the activity levels of our children and young people, as I said in my outline earlier on. Regardless of the way in which we collect the statistics and whatever way they are cut up, what we have to take from that is that there is marginal improvement in areas, but a lot still to do to bring people from being inactive to active in the active Scotland outcomes framework is an attempt to bring together all those different ways of collecting data to then corral that into a sense that we can understand whether our activity in terms of policy and legislation and whatever is delivering on what we seek to achieve. It seems that we are trying to deliver something that is always good to have a measure, and we have got several measures that are all going in different directions. It is difficult enough that we are not in progress or not, so I do not know if they are. I certainly would have looked at the active Scotland outcome framework as well, which actually is lauded internationally as an approach. Other countries are looking at that as an approach to adopt. While we have the right things in place to measure success, the real challenge is actually making sure that it is implemented effectively to ensure the improvements that we need to see. The active Scotland outcome framework is really clear on how we measure success, and that is a number of people who are active with children and adults, and that is a top-line measure. There are a whole range of indicators that inform that against each of the six outcomes, but the measure of success is really clear, because these are a number of people meeting the physical activity guidelines, both for adults and children. They are drawn from the national health survey. That is one in the national performance indicator. The national performance framework is slightly different to Aberdeen Scotland outcome framework. It is a physical activity indicator with the Scottish health survey being drawn from the same data. The national performance framework is completely different from the active Scotland outcome framework, and that is linked to the Mae ymddwch chi'n gweithio. Ymddwch chi i ymddwch chi'n gweithio, mae ymddwch chi'n gweithio'n gweithio? Mae gweld wedi'i awr i gael i chi ddau rhai cyffraith nawr a chi'n ddau'r ddau categories. Mae'r amser y gallu diodel ac yn eu camuio'n ddau. Yr iechydion ddau всемiais ymddwch chi'n gweithio'n gweithio. Mae'n cwilio'n ddau i'n ddau allan nhogelt i chael ei wneud. Mae'n ddau wrth gwrs. Warts and all is the Active Scotland Outcome Framework, and that's the thing as well, that when we have a national strategic group that brings together Sport Scotland, Education Scotland, Transport Scotland, SNH and the rest of it, that's the thing that we agreed to sign up to deliver on. And that's the one that's going from 72 per cent to 79 per cent, which is good. Thank you. Jenny. Good morning to the minister. I have quite a specific question with regard to early experiences in life and sport activity. We know that the earlier you can intervene in terms of getting kids to take up a sport, the more likely they are to participate in sport later in life, and the committee has previously taken evidence from Abertau University and Andrea Cameron who told us that children who have had a poor experience in school are less likely to stick with sport and exercise as they go into adulthood, and that poor experience could perhaps be linked to their experiences of PE in schools. I wonder, do the Scottish Government currently quality assure what type of sports are delivered in our schools, so, for example, by carrying out a survey? Do we have an idea nationally of what type of sport is being delivered in our schools? And I know that that's really a specific point. In terms of working out whether this is providing a good experience for young people? I suppose my question is, and this would be my supplementary. In my experiences as a teacher previously, what sports were delivered in school were very much dependent upon the teacher's specialisms, so there might be an inequality there in opportunity. What I would point to though, as well, is that the fastest growing areas for girls' participation which we announced at the start of Active Women and Girls in Sport Week was around karate, dodgeball, cross country, oh, I can't, sorry, forgive me, but karate, but so certainly what I'm trying to point out is that it's maybe not the natural kind of things that you would associate with PE tuition in schools, so that's showing that when there is opportunity provided through Active Schools that when young girls in particular got the opportunity that that's where we saw the quickest and fastest growth. Rugby was the other one, sorry, I'm seeing Mary, Todd there, sorry, and of course Rugby was the other one. Heaven for family for forgetting that. So that, I think, maybe shows that there is an attempt to try and shift away from that. The other thing that I would point to is where our governing bodies are doing some really interesting and innovative work. So Netball Scotland, through their Science for Success programme, which I went to see in Shollins academy, are using that role model of their professional sporting stars to unpick some of the barriers that particularly adolescent girls are facing and feeling in schools. Again, I would highlight Shollins academy for some fantastic work that they're doing around ensuring equality of access to sport, particularly for LGBTI groups in our country. They have developed with Leap Sport a framework to ensure that people recognise the barriers that young people will face when they're about to do sport and how that can be off-putting and how that can be off-putting, not just for them at school but off-putting for life. So that is something that I would certainly encourage the committee to look at because that has been led by young people themselves through Leap Scotland and is potentially a tool for other schools to use. As we hurtle towards the end of the year, we're also coming into that time where social dancing happens and sometimes that has memories that might be positive but they might not be. Particularly if you're a young trans person in school getting told girls line up on one side, boys line up on the other, that can be a barrier. That's really difficult. I would certainly cite the work that Shollins academy has done. Leap Scotland has supported that but there's probably more that we can do to make sure that we have a focus on what opportunities are provided to young people at schools. Some of that will be led by the particular teacher's own experience and knowledge in their own sport and background but likewise I think that we should take heart from the fact that through active schools a range of experiences and opportunities are being provided and that's why we're seeing growth in karate rugby dodgeball where they're taking that opportunity up and participating in those sports. Thank you minister for that. My sister teaches in Shollins academy as well. Certainly be speaking to her about all the good work that they're doing. I also stirred up some trauma from years going by and some of us but not as much of the trauma as the people who had to dance with as I'm sure. You wouldn't. I can assure you you wouldn't. A broken foot might, Brian. That will make the diary at the weekend. Sorry, I've got a vision in my head. I've got a vision in my head of dancing with him. If I could, just a couple of quick points. The difference between the measurement that you're talking about between walking and then separating that out, the uptake on sport, the reason that I think that's important, I absolutely agree with Alison Johnstone that any kind of activity is very, very welcome. The reason I think has to be separated is in terms of sport needs a lot more framework to participate and needs more volunteers to participate than it would be in some of easy access activities like walking. One of the reasons we have to measure that is our understanding, as we'd like it to start, is around capacity, whether that's a barrier or whether we've reached a saturation point or we have access to it. That would be my point there of why it is important that we measure those two or our ability to see those two separately. To go back to the convener's point around Jogges Scotland, it's obvious, minister, that the funding with it was drawn and was put back in place mainly because of the pressure from this Parliament and this committee, and I think that's a good thing. Perhaps mistakes are made that their ability to be rectified. With that in mind, would you not consider swimming at school as a compulsory swimming at school, certainly in primary schools, as something that we could look at again, given that 40 per cent of children are now going to secondary school unable to swim, and if they're unable to swim, they're then not able to participate? This is, again, to Colin Smith's point, more prevalent in the lower percentile of the poorer communities. Is it not perhaps something that the Scottish Government should be looking at around reintroducing funding to ensure that all primary schools get access to swimming? The curriculum is not dictated, and what we're wanting to see is that more young people get opportunity of access to be physically active, and swimming will play a part of that. Alongside that, we support the Government-embodied swimming in Scotland with investment, and we'll continue to support increasing activity levels and highlight the importance of that, and swimming will continue to always be an important part of the P curriculum in many schools, but it's something that has been a long-standing tradition in Scotland that is not a national curriculum, and we don't specify explicitly what things should be part of that, apart from religious and moral education. We continue to support swimming in Scotland to deliver opportunities for young people. There's £1.7 million with drawing, and I would suggest to you that swimming's not just about activity, it's a life skill that allows kids going through life to participate in all sorts of things, even if that's going on holiday and jumping in the swimming pool. All I'm asking you, Minister, is that you reintroduce, or perhaps there's an opportunity to reintroduce, that kind of funding to allow schools to ensure that all primary school kids have access to swimming? Again, I think that we don't deny the importance of swimming, not just as an opportunity to be physically active, but of course the life skills that that brings, but then all sports provide life skills around resilience, around confidence, and all the host of positives that sport brings to a young person's life. Swimming will be an important part of the PE offer in many schools. In fact, it's being delivered across many schools in Scotland, and again, we continue to invest in swimming in Scotland to support the work that they do to provide opportunity. However, if the committee is so minded that they want to place that as a recommendation, we'll continue to look at that and also continue to work in dialogue with politicians, particularly at the point in which we can budgetary discussions or whatever. That's up to you if that's something you want to push, but certainly we recognise and support swimming, and we recognise the importance that swimming brings to young people's lives, and that's why it's currently delivered in schools across the country. That's a very important point, just in relation to volunteering, because we haven't covered that. We found that many of the clubs and organisations very much rely on a key person could be a coach or a key volunteer within those organisations, and that it can be pretty precarious if that volunteer becomes ill or moves on or retires or whatever. What's been done to encourage many more volunteers into sporting activity and coaching? I think that a lot of work happens at a local level, and a lot of work goes on through our sporting governing bodies to support volunteers and support volunteering opportunities. Sport Scotland offers support as well, and of course within our programme for government we have an explicit commitment to being more strategic in how we support volunteering, not just for sport, but across the board. We've got some fantastic examples of volunteering across the country, outwith Sport Children's Panel, and a whole host of things. We'll also use the opportunity of next year's year of young people to ensure that young people understand the benefits that they can get from volunteering as well. I think that I said in my opening remarks that around 19,000 volunteers have been pivotal to the delivery of the active schools programme. I thank you very much, minister. I thank you for your time this morning, and as you agreed previously, we'll move into private session.