 Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. brought to you by Red Hat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation, and ecosystem partners. Welcome back, we're at the end of two days wall-to-wall coverage here at KubeCon CloudNativeCon here in Barcelona, Spain. I'm Stu Miniman, my co-host for two days has been Corey Quinn. Corey, we've gone two days, it's five years of Kubernetes, and everybody's been wondering when are you going to sing Happy Birthday to Fippy and the Kubernetes team? Generally, no one wants to hear me sing more than once, because first, I don't have a great singing voice, but more importantly, I insist on calling it Coreyoke, and it just doesn't resonate with people. The puns don't land as well as you'd hope they would. Maybe not singing, but you are a master of limericks, I'm told. So they tell me most are unprintable, but that's a separate argument for another time. All right, so Corey, this is your first time at KubeCon. It is. You know, we've done some analysis segments. I thought we've had some phenomenal guests, some great end users, some thought leaders. You know, you need to pick your favorite right now. Oh, everyone's going to pick their own favorite on this one, but I've got to say that it was, it would have to be, hands down, Abby Fuller from AWS. Not that I didn't enjoy all of our guests. Is it because you have AWS on your lapel pin and that secretly you do work for Amazon? Hardly, just the opposite in fact. It's that, given that my newsletter makes fun of AWS on a near constant basis. Whenever someone says, oh, there's going to be a public thing with Corey and someone from AWS, half the people there are like, oh, this is going to be good. And the other half turn ghost white and, oh no, no, this is going to go awfully. And I'll be honest, it's been a day now. I still don't know which it was, but we had fun. Yeah, so Abby was phenomenal. Love having her on the program. I'm a sucker for these real transformational stories. I'll tell you, Jeff Brewer from Intuit, there's been many times I do a show and I do the first interview and I'm like, I can go home. It's like, here we hear a company that we know, both of us have used this technology and really walks us through how that transformation happens, some of the organizational things. They've brought some software in and they're contributing to it. So just many aspects of what I look at in a company that's modernizing and going through those pieces, those kind of stories always get me excited. That story was incredible. And in fact, it's almost starting to turn into a truth and labeling issue for lack of a better term, because this is the cloud-native foundation. The software is designed for things that were more or less born in the cloud. And now we're hearing an entire series of stories on transitioning in. And it almost feels like that that's not native anymore, that that's effectively something that is migrating in. And that's fantastic. It's a sign of maturity. It's great to see. And it's strange to think of that in that the terms of the software, itself is absolutely cloud-native. It's not at all clear that the companies that are working with this are themselves. And that's okay. That's not a terrible thing. There was some snark from the keynote today about, well, here's a way to run web logic in Kubernetes. And half the audience was looking at this with a, why would I ever want to do that? Because you're running web logic and you need to continue to run web logic. And you can either sit there and make fun of people or you can help them get to a different place than they are now that helps their business become more agile and improves velocity. But I don't think you can effectively do both. Yeah, Corey, anything that's over than five years old, ew, why would you ever want to do that? Because you must always do things the brand new way. Oh wait, let's get serious for a second. Lift and shift is something that I cringe a little bit when I hear it because there's too many times that I would hear a customer say, I did this and I hadn't fully planned out how I was doing it. And then I clawed it back because it was neither cheap nor easy. I swiped that credit card and it wasn't what I expected. Yeah, I went ahead and decided to run in a cloud provider. Now my infrastructure runs on someone else's infrastructure and then a few months go by that the transition doesn't happen right. I was wrong. It's not running on someone else's infrastructure. It's running on money. What do I do? And that became something that was interesting for a lot of companies and painful as well. Yeah. You can do that, but you need to plan the second shift phase to take longer than you think it will. You will not recoup savings in the timeframe you probably expect to. But that's okay because it's usually not about that. It's a capability. Yeah, I had hope that we learned as an industry. You might remember the old phrase, my mess for less by outsourcing. And then we learned, oh wait, I put it in an environment. They don't really understand my business. I can't make changes the way I want. I needed to insource now my knowledge to be able to work close with the business. And therefore, no matter where I put my valuable code and my valuable information and I run stuff, I'm responsible for it. And even if I move it there as a first step, I need to make sure how do I actually optimize it for that environment, for my cost savings. There's lots of things I can do to change those kind of things. Yeah, the one cautionary tale I'm picking up from a lot of these stories has been that you need to make sure that the people you're talking to and the trusted advisors that you have are aligned with your incentives, not their own. There's, no matter where you go, there's an entire sea of companies that are thrilled and lined up to sell you something. And that's not inherently a bad thing, but you need to understand that whatever you're having those conversations, there is a potential conflict of interest. Not necessarily an actual one, but pay attention. You can partner with someone, but at some point, your interest do diverge. Okay, Corey, what other key learnings or sound bites did you get from some of our speakers this week? There were an awful lot of them. I think that's the first time I've ever seen, for example, a project being, having pieces removed from it, Tiller in this case, and a bunch of people clapped and cheered. Being ripped out of helm, it's, oh, awesome. Normally, the only time you see something getting ripped out and people cheer is when they finally fire that person you work with. Usually, that person is me, then everyone claps and cheers, which frankly, if you've met me, that makes sense. For software, it's less common, but we saw that, we saw two open source projects merging. Yeah. We had, it was- The open telemetry is the new piece. With open sensors and open tracing combining. You don't often see that done in anything approaching a responsible way, but we've seen it now. And there's been a lot of people, a little myth that there weren't a whole bunch of new features and services and whatnot launched today. That's a sign of maturity. It means that there's a stability story that is now being told. And I think that that's something that's very easy to overlook if you're interested in a pure development perspective. Yeah, so, just to give a little bit of a cautionary piece there, we had Mark Shudderworth on the program and he said, look, there are certain emperors walking around the show floor that have no clothes on. I had Tim Hocken, Joe Beta, and Gabe Monroy on. Some of the earliest people working on Kubernetes and they said, look, five years in we've reached a certain level of maturity. But Tim Hocken was like, we have so much to do. Our SIGs are overrunning with what I need to do now so don't think we can declare success, cut the cake, eat the donuts, grab the t-shirt and say, great, let's go on to the next great thing because there is so much more yet to do. There's absolutely a consulting opportunity for someone to set up shop and call it imperial tailoring where they're going around and helping these people realize that how, yes, you've come an incredibly long way but there is so much more work to be done. There is such a bright future. Now I would not call myself a screaming advocate for virtually any technology, I hope. I think that Kubernetes absolutely has its place. I don't think it's a panacea and I don't think that it is going to necessarily be the right fit for every workload. I think that most people, once you get them calmed down and the adrenaline is worn off would largely agree with that sentiment but that nuance often gets lost in a world of tweets. It's a nuanced discussion that doesn't lend itself well to rapid-fire, quick sound bites. Yeah, so Corey, another thing I know that is near and dear to your heart, they brought in diversity scholarships, so 56 people got their pass and travel paid for to come here. There's really good people in the community are very welcoming yet in the same breath when they talked about the numbers and Cheryl was up on stage saying only 3% of the people contributing and making changes were women and so therefore we still have work to do to make sure that, you've mentioned a couple times on the program. Absolutely, and it is incredibly important but one of the things that gives me some of the most hope for that is how many companies or organizations would run numbers like that and realize that 3% of their contributors are women and then mention it during a keynote. That's almost unheard of for an awful lot of companies. Instead they wind up going and holding that back. One company we don't need to name wound up trying to keep that from coming out in a court case as a trade secret of all things and that's generally, depressingly, what you would often expect. The fact that they called it out and the fact that they are having a diversity scholarship program, they are looking at actively at ways to solve this problem is I think the right answer. I certainly don't know what the fix is going to be for any of this but something has to happen and the fact that they are not sitting around waiting for the problem to fix itself, they're not casting blame around in a bunch of different directions is inspirational. I'm probably not the best person to talk on this but the issue is very, you're right, it is important to me and it is something that absolutely needs to be addressed. I'm very encouraged by the conversations we had with Cheryl Hong and several other people this past couple of days and I'm very eager to see where it goes next. Yeah, okay, Corey, what about any things you've been hearing kind of in the back channel, hallway conversations, any concerns out there? The one from my standpoint where I say, well, security is something that for most of my career was top of mind and bottom of budget and from day one, when you talk about containerization, everything's security's there. There are a number of companies here in the space starting to target it but there's not a lot of VC money coming into the space and there are concerns about how much real focus there will be to make sure security in this ecosystem's there. Now, every single platform that this is going to live in, whether you talk the public, clouds, talk about companies like Red Hat and everybody else here, security is a big piece of their message and their focus but from a CNCF, if there was one area that I didn't hear enough about at this show, I thought it might be storage but it feels like we are making progress there so security is the one I come out with, say, I want to know more, I want to see more. One thing that I thought was interesting is we spoke to Reduxio earlier and they were talking about one of their advantages was that they are, quote, enterprise grade and normally to me that means we have slides with war and peace written on everyone and instead what they talked about was they have not just security built into this but they have auditability, they have data life cycle policies, they have a level of maturity that is necessary if you're going to start winning some of these serious enterprise and regulated workloads. So there are companies active in this space but I agree with you, I think that it has not been a primary area of focus but if you look at how quickly this entire, I will call it a Kubernetes revolution because anything else has takes on religious overtones that's, it's been such a fast twitch type of environment that security does get left behind because it's never a concern or a priority until it's too late and then it becomes a giant horse horses left, barn doors now being closed, Dory. And I hope we don't have to learn that. So multi-cloud Corey, have you changed your mind? I don't think so. I still maintain that multi-cloud within the absence of a business reason is not a best practice. I think that if you need to open that door for business reasons, then Kubernetes is not a terrible way to go about achieving it but I do question whether it's something everyone needs to put into their system design principles on day one. Okay, must companies be born cloud native or can they mature into a cloud native or we should be talking a different term maybe? I don't know if it's even a terminology issue. We've certainly seen companies that were born in on-prem environments. And a classic example of this is Capital One. They are absolutely going all in on a public cloud. They've been very public about how they're doing it. Transformation is possible. It runs on money and it takes a lot more time and effort than anyone thinks it's going to but as long as you have the right incentives and the right reason to do things it absolutely becomes possible. That said it is potentially easier if you're born in the cloud to a point. If you get ossified into existing patterns and don't pay attention to what's happening you look at these companies that are 20 years old and oh they're so backwards they'll never catch up. If you live that long that will be you someday. So it's very important to not stop paying attention to what the larger ecosystem is doing because you don't want to be the only person responsible for levels of your stack that you don't want to have to be responsible for. All right, want to give you the final word Corey? Any final things or any final questions for me? Fundamentally I think that this has been an incredible event where we've had great conversations with people who are focused on an awful lot of different things. There are still a bunch of open questions. I still for example think that serverless is being viewed entirely too much through a lens of functions as a service but I'm curious as far as what you took away from this. What did you learn this trip that you didn't expect to learn? Yeah, so you know it's interesting when we talk about the changing world of open source there's been some concern lately that what's happening in the public cloud, oh well maybe open source will be imploding. Well it really doesn't feel that way to me when you talk at this show we've actually used the line a couple of times. Kubernetes is people. It is not the vendors just doing things. Internet of flesh. There are people here. We've all seen people that we know that have passions for what they're doing and that goes above and beyond where they live and in this community it is project first and the company you work for is second or third consideration in there. So there's this groundswell of activity. We're big believers of the world can be changed. I don't need everybody's full time commitment. If you could just take 2% of the US's watching of TV in a single year you could build Wikipedia. Clay Sharkey, one of my great stat I love from those environments. We believe that the network and communities really can make huge efforts and it's great to see tech for good and for progress and many of the outcomes that we see here is refreshingly uplifting to kind of pull out of some of the day to day things that we think about sometimes. Absolutely. I think that you're right. It has to come from people. It has to come from community and so far I'm seeing a lot of encouraging signs. One thing that I do find slightly troubling that may or may not resolve itself is that we're still seeing Cloud Native defined in terms of what it's not. That said, this is theCUBE. I am not Stu Miniman. All right, well I am Stu Miniman. You are Corey Quinn. Corey, how's it been two days on theCUBE wall to wall through all these things? Ready for a nap or fly home? I'm ready to call it a week absolutely. I'm somewhat surprised at no point have you hit me and one of these days I'm sure we will cross that border. Well definitely I try not to have any video or photo evidence of that but thank you Corey so much. We do have to make a big shout out first and foremost to the Cloud Native Computing Foundation without their partnership we would not be able to come here and we do have sponsorships. If you look on the lower thirds of the videos you will see our headline sponsor for this show has been Red Hat, obviously strong commitment in this community and will be with us here and also in San Diego for theCUBE on additional shout out to Cisco, Canonical and Reduxio for their sponsorship here and all the people that put on this show here it's a big community on our team. So I want to make a big shout out to my boys here coming in I've got Pat and Seth flying in from the West Coast as well as the Tony Day Crew, Tony, Steve and John. Thank you guys beautiful set here love the gimbal with the logo branding here lots of spectacle and we always say check out thecube.com to see all the replays as well as see where we will be reach out with any questions and thank you as always for watching theCUBE.