 It's a neurocognitive training program that actually uses a neuro device that monitors the brain of the student. It's a wearable neuro device and has a very, very good attention algorithm in it. And it allows the students to activate games by being engaged. We guide them to being in their maximum state of attention and then that activates certain elements. It activates the game, but it also activates certain elements in the game. So they're actually controlling the game by mind alone. And the game actually teaches them a skill that supports executive function. It teaches them to reduce impulsive behavior, make good decisions. The program now is shipped globally in 10 different languages. It is the number one neurocognitive program for ADHD students. I actually created that genre way back in the early 1990s. Boom. What's up, everyone? Welcome to Simulation. I'm your host, Alan Saki, and we are on site at the Transformative Technology Conference down in Palo Alto in California. We are very grateful for our partnership with them this weekend at their conference. We are sitting down with a bunch of the thought leaders at the conference. We have Peter Freer joining us from Freer Logic. How are you doing, man? It's a pleasure to be here. Thanks for coming on the show. I really appreciate it. I enjoyed it. I love the Transformative Tech Conference. I love the atmosphere they've created here. Yes. It's really nice to be here. And actually, Freer Logic fits perfectly into it. And as we talk about what you're doing with Freer Logic, the neuro cybernetics wearables that are not a funny looking like Google Glass style headband. The reason why that didn't succeed just looks a little too funny, wasn't ready, wasn't quite there at the time that people weren't ready for it. But we'll get to what you're building. I want to ask you about you first. Who are you? How did you even end up caring about neuro tech and wearable technology and mapping the brain? Yeah. How did that even happen with your life journey? It's a long story. I'm a former educator. And when I started teaching back in the mid-1980s, I had students who could pay attention. And at that time, there was really no formal diagnosis, no formal description. They called it minimal brain dysfunction. And they eventually called it ADHD. But I had a math, science, physics, computer programming background from university. And I thought, well, I will make a program that will fix these students. So I set about doing it, working three jobs, six days a week. School teachers don't make much money. And I came out with, in 1994, Play Attention, which is the first company I started. And you can see that at playattention.com. It's a neurocognitive training program that actually uses a neuro device that monitors the brain of the student. It's a wearable neuro device. The program now is shipped globally in 10 different languages. It is the number one neurocognitive program for ADHD students. I actually created that genre way back in the early 1990s. And I actually got to work with some folks at NASA because NASA was using Neurotech to train astronauts to pay better attention in states of hypo and hyperarousal. And we were fortunate enough to adapt the technology. The spin-off magazine featured me a couple of times. And then we got patents based on our enhancements to what they had been doing. But we were limited there just to that space, to the ADHD space. By the way, it was tested by Tufts University School of Medicine in three randomized controlled studies and we knocked it out of the park. They're all published in three peer-reviewed journals. And our students increased in attention, executive function, behavioral control, and academic performance as well as social performance as well, too, because that's an area that they have that's troubling for most ADHD students. Will you teach us about play-attention, right, play-attention, play-attention, which is, I like that, I like the title of the name there. Now, with play-attention, what were they doing, because there was a hardware component and a software component, you had a game that they were playing and you were monitoring their neural signatures. Okay, so then how was the wearable that you made then able to actually monitor things like attention or executive function and also what was the software like that they were playing? Yeah, that's the right question. The neural monitor that was used, I developed to wear on the arm. And of course, I was told initially I wouldn't be able to do it because the signal's so small. So I worked on it for about three years and we finally came up with something that has a very, very good attention algorithm in it. And it allows the students to activate games by being engaged, right? We guide them to being in their maximum state of attention and then that activates certain elements. It activates the game, but it also activates certain elements in the game. So they're actually controlling the game by mind alone. And the game actually teaches them a skill that supports executive function. It teaches them to reduce impulsive behavior, make good decisions. Even something as simple as finishing homework, we actually have the academic bridge where they can work on homework in real time. And the attention monitor is monitoring how much attention they're paying to their homework and it alerts them when it's not enough to get homework done in a normal amount of time. And actually it's a teaching program. So once they've learned how to do it, they don't need us anymore, right? They get the skill sets that they need. And we've done this at, you know, the tough studies were really kind of key in learning about how this actually works. I lectured on this at the United Nations because I had done work for the International Atomic Energy Agency of the United Nations to teach nuclear operators how to pay better attention. So what we do is, of course, add that neuro component. So Tufts thought, well, it's nonsense. You don't need a neuro component. Brain training is brain training is brain training. So in their tests against us, they pitted us against games like Lemosity, brain games that people can play, and then a non-intervention group. I think brain training is brain training. You don't need a neuro component. So when we put the neuro component in, especially among this population, we had great success. When we were compared, the brain training group, our group excelled in all those areas I previously mentioned, the brain training group excelled in none. They had no increased ability in any of those areas. As a matter of fact, they required an average of nine milligrams increase in their medication just to stay in school. And that was about on the same level as the non-total non-intervention group. So it tells you that the neuro component, having the person be engaged, is a critical component to changing behavioral outcomes and cognitive outcomes. The fact that I can pull your attention in and mandate that to operate the game that you're playing to learn a certain skill is critical for you to make a change. And that we have found to be a key factor in training DaVinci robotic surgeons, Olympic athletes. We do all of this now based on the fact that we've been doing that type of training for years. We also can do it remotely. So let's say you're in San Francisco and I'm back in North Carolina at our offices and you have my arm band. I can train you in real time. I could train 20 people in real time from across the globe all with a single application that we have now. So we not only have specialized in training in that area, but also being able to do it remotely for a wide population. But that limited us to that ADHD realm, kind of a neurocognitive training element. So we moved out of that in 2005. I thought there is no way that we're going to be able to get this into a consumer realm unless we have more than the body-based arm band. I'd like to use it in car so I actually created a steering wheel for Jaguar Land Rover. You could grab the steering wheel and it would monitor your engagement. Your neuro information was being distributed or obtained through the steering wheel. Well, I got back to Detroit and the guys in Detroit said, we work gloves in the winter time. What are you going to do? So I had to come up with a new model, a new form factor. And I watched a movie called Contact with Jody Foster, Carl Sagan, Dear Nerd. I've watched that movie. I don't know how many times. Fell asleep, woke up at 3 o'clock in the morning and I shook my wife awake and I said, I know what I'm doing. I know how to do this. So I devised an array series that would be able to monitor the brain from a distance. So in fact, we don't need contact with the head any longer or the body. So I put it in a headrest and we called a neuro biomonitor because officially EEG requires attachment. It denotes that you have sensors attached to the head and we don't. So we called a neuro biomonitor and we're able to get enough signal from the driver to determine drowsiness, to determine cognitive load so if they're trying to text and drive and it becomes dangerous, we can tell them. The car becomes conscious then of the driver. We kind of dubbed it at this point, the conscious car because it becomes aware of what your state is and then assists you. So it's essentially passive. Nothing ever is injected into the driver. It just listens like the microphones that we're wearing listen to our voice. This listens for your brain signal. But they're passive until such a time that you're having a problem with getting too sleepy to drive and then the car can alert you. It will vibrate your seat, maybe waft coffee sent through the car or even tell you, right? You're too drowsy to drive. It's time to pull off the road, get some coffee, something like that. So that it becomes a safety feature in the vehicle. In autonomous driving, which is coming up, we'll also monitor the driver for driver engagement because it's still critical that you're not reading a book and while the car is driving because we've already seen some extreme accidents happen under the current situation with autonomous vehicles. Let's talk about how the technology works. So how can you via a wearable tap into some of the nervous system in the forearm or even like you said without even a wearable, the neuro bio feedback? How can you do that? What does that work? So you have the nerves in your body. Your nervous system runs from the brain all the way down to the tips of your toes and it's all throughout your body. You probably didn't even know that you have brain cells, neurons in your gut. You have a secondary nervous system in your gut and people often say, well, I have a gut feeling about that. Not that the neurons there are ever going to write a poem or a novel, but it shows that we have quite an active nervous system and we found that if we tune the electronics appropriately, we can get it through the body, but we have to eliminate things like muscle tension and other artifact heart rhythm, that kind of thing because those are very strong elements to pick up a very faint signal because when you look at neuro signal, it's formed because the brain is comprised of billions of cells called neurons. And the neurons have to talk to each other to function. They make minor networks and major networks throughout the brain, so you have the internet going on in your brain and when they talk to each other, they shoot a neurotransmitter between the cells. Either activates or deactivates the cell next to it. And that neurotransmission in itself is so small, you can't measure one neuron. It's just way too tiny. Yes, you stuck a micro fine sensor probe down there, Elon Musk says that's a good thing to do. And eventually, we probably will do that when they can make it convenient enough to do, but just the thought of sticking wires into one's brain is kind of repulsive to most people at this point. So right now, we listen to that signal by taking a mass of the neurons when they fire. So whenever you get a brain signal, it is always the summation or aggregate of hundreds of thousands if not millions of neurons firing at one time because that produces enough energy, a field of energy that goes through the cerebral spinal fluid, the meninges, the dermis, and if it pushes or pulls on sensors on the top of the head, that's EEG. It creates a field of energy. And so what the neurobiomonitor is designed to do is to listen to a field of energy and then parse it down into constituent elements like various brainwave frequencies. Does that make any sense? Yeah, it is. So continue though, we're right there where you just left off. So if I'm using my pillow and my pillow is neurobiofeedback, what is the tool? Sorry, what is the item that you are using that is collecting the neurobiofeedback? Is it a pillow? What is it? Oh, so in this case, we would use it in the vehicles that we're using it in. It's a headrest. So it's located. You'll never see it. It's in the headrest of your car. Now I get it. Now I know. Now you know why I'm carrying around a headrest in your bag and I was like, what is going on? Why do you have a car headrest in here? Interesting. So they're just driving. And then what is located inside of the headrest of the driver's seat? What is that thing that's there? So there is an array in there. And this is what came through the contact moving. When I watched them use array of radio telescope, arrays of radio telescope to monitor extraterrestrial signal, hundreds of millions of light years away, we can actually see faint signals. So I thought, well, by using an array and then tuning the array to the human brain that we would be able to collect enough signal to create algorithms that interpret those signals and give us the state of the driver. So we did testing with auto OEM. And in a simulator, we were able to beat the current system, which is called a perclose system. A perclose system is a camera system that looks at how heavy your eyelids are getting and then it sets an algorithm on it and says, OK, you're this sleepy based on that. But of course, you're looking at an external physical feature that is apparent well after the fact that the brain has already moved to that state. So we can look at it in real time. So we beat perclose by two to 10 minutes. 10 minutes was our best. Two minutes was our worst effort in determining drowsiness. Now we also use something called the Karolinska sleepiness survey or scale, sleepiness scale, which is a subjective thing. As you would be doing the testing, we would ask you at certain points, how sleepy do you feel? 12, 1 to 9. And you would tell us on that scale. The perclose system got zero correlation. And we got 80% correlation. And so not only did we beat it in time, we also beat it in correlation to what people subjectively felt about their sleep. Now some people obviously don't know they're getting drowsy. And that's why people fall asleep and go off the road, right? They don't really know. They think they can beat it or they don't really know. So we know we're on the right track and we expect to be out in a vehicle by 2020. We've been at it for two years with auto manufacturers and we expect it to be in this, a safety feature in the not too distant future. Oh my gosh, it's the next seatbelt. It is. And it's totally, again, totally passive. We don't inject anything into you. There's no radio wave going into your head. We just listen. And it's a key safety feature. One auto OEM don't want to. An array of how is it just listening to the electrical activity sitting here? So there's a heavy amplification system behind it with electronics that amplify this T tiny signal that comes from the head. So there's amplification, and I can't tell you the secret sauce, right? But there is heavy amplification and heavy filtering that has to go on so that we can actually see what's happening in real time. But you're making the signal that's there and amplifying it. Just like your microphone does right here, this tiny microphone is taking this, the vibration of the air coming from me and then obviously amplifies that like crazy and then feeds it in wirelessly into the camera. It's very much like that. Interesting. Yeah. I'm glad you gave that analogy of this next seat belt or the next, what was it, the Israeli car company that got the auto assist for the lane switches now in every single manufacturer. I think they're almost there at least. So now it's interesting. There seem to be, this is an important place especially because the transition to autonomous isn't coming so, so soon. So there's plenty of a runaway probably maybe 10 years. And then even after 10, like you said, there's still applications for autonomous. I've got to be honest with you're one of the first interviewers I've ever spoken to that actually has a real grasp of what that's like because all the, and I don't want to get myself in too much hot water here, but a lot of the car companies are projecting that it's around the corner and it's going to be in the next couple of years. And the reality of the technology is that it's just not there. And I think you're right, 8 to 10 years out we will have and cars have to be interconnected. There's going to be a lot of work that's done but everybody wants to keep their stock up. So they say that they're around the corner. I just would not, personally I would not use it myself right now. Totally. But we'll still be around even through the autonomous vehicles monitoring the electrical activity. Now, what can you get from the electrical activity of the brain at such a, at such a distance even though it's at, it's not that far. It's not an EEG. It's not, you're not wearing the electrodes but there's this array and the array is taking what is on the surface of the brain amplifying it. And you're mostly collecting those big neural activations like you were talking about when a lot of the neural infrastructure lights up and you're able to get a big reading from something like that. So what we're looking at is something that's been done for many, many years in the industry. We look at the brain data that are coming from the person and then we interpret that and to say is that person drowsy, is that person angry, is that person stressed, is that person paying attention. And there are algorithms written on those data and we've created new ones and we'll keep creating some but there already have been, there's been a lot of work in that arena already. People have created algorithms to interpret different things and so that's creating our own from this is really the key. So it's not only the electronics but it's the key to working in an auto situation which is different than working, let's say in your pillow on your bed. We've actually had a mattress company do that and I'm not allowed to reveal who that is right now. They're doing a similar array in a bed. We've done it for them and they actually were at CES a couple of years ago and they were having races. So you and your spouse or your friend could jump in these beds and then through an attention algorithm you could race each other to see who's asleep. So that was the whole idea. Here's an interesting question for you, is what the array is detecting, we're discussing these kind of like bigger activations in these algorithms that can detect if it's happiness or if it's sadness or if it's drowsiness etc. Is this an array sensing if the drowsiness would be something like a delta, like a deep sleep brainwave or even like a theta is getting kind of close to that as well, very deep or meditative state versus if they're at like a mid-range beta, just like a faster wave then are you getting that or are you getting that kind of data? Yes. Absolutely. So we can parse into respective bandwidths, delta being the long slow rolling wave that's usually dominant during sleep. If you have alpha spindles during delta you have REM sleep, you're dreaming, theta is just prior to sleep as you mentioned. So we do that, but we also we have three tiers in free air logic. One is automotive. So we do that in automotive. But the other one is consumer tech, which is one of the reasons we're here. And then the third is training. So as I previously mentioned, we also train DaVinci robotic surgeons, Olympic athletes, things like that so that they can attain better performance because again three critical catalysts to causing prolonged changes in the brain, long term changes in the brain. One key catalyst is attention. So we can create that through the neuro monitoring. The second one that you have to have is challenge. If I'm going to teach you something new that you're going to retain and to create the new neural networks responsible for it because we know these are catalysts, we actually know the molecular process behind that. It's called the KREB process, cyclic amp response elements and binding proteins. So we know how the brain actually goes about actually sending out messenger RNA and saying here's this new neural network, it needs to happen. So we know the molecular structure and mechanism. So what we do is take a look at the macro. How do we get that to actually happen? Well, one of the key catalysts is attention. The second one is challenge. If I tell you something you already know, you nod your head and go I already know it. But if I take you to the limits of your knowledge base and push you just a fraction further and I can keep your attention while I'm doing that, that's challenge, right? And it forces you to go just a step further and we can actually do that with the attention level as well. It sounds like the most profound moments of existence is when you unlock that new dimension of thinking, the new perception, an augmentation in perception. It's so fascinating. Brilliantly said, that's exactly where we're pushing the envelope right now. To be able to draw people to do that, instead of for years, you know, golfer is probably one of the best examples. A golfer will go out and hit a bucket of balls doing the same thing he's done for the last 20 years. And he goes and plays the game and he goes, my game still stinks. Don't play with it because I'm not engaged. I do the same things I do all the time. Neurotechnology can engage us and then with the proper type of training. And this is a term coined by Anders Erickson, who was a university central Florida, wrote a tome on how we become experts, right? So he knows exactly what the technique is and he can talk about it. But we're the ones that actually can actually make it happen in a neural sense, right? So you have attention and being, pulling, engaging the person and then taking them to a state of challenge and you can not only take them to the state of challenge about the material they're learning, but you can take them to a state of challenge about how much attention they're paying to the new material. Does that make sense? Yep. Okay. And so the last leg of that tripod is deliberate practice and the deliberate practice model is Anders Erickson being able to do it with feedback. And now the Neurotech is giving you immediate feedback about how engaged you are. It's giving you immediate feedback about your challenge level. How do you show this feedback? So let's say that you're playing one of the ADHD games we use is called discriminatory processing or even I think another good one to use here would be just attention stamina to learn how to prolong, how to sustain and direct and prolong our attention a little bit. So during that, we give you a simple character. You push to the bottom of the ocean by your attention level. More attention you pay, you push the character down and he's collecting treasure and various articles, while he's down there. But we don't let you stay there because if I let you stay there, you're on autopilot and become disengaged after a while. So every, and this is in the algorithm, every little while or so, we challenge you to pay a little bit more attention. So there's the attention challenge. If you don't make it, he starts floating the wrong way and you know, there's the immediate feedback, I've got to get a little bit more attentive. So then if you can catch it, you push him back down. So we're increasing your attention to the task. And then secondarily, if you don't make it, I can't do it, it's too hard for me. It just takes you back to your last most successful level. But then it's got to repeat in a cycle. I don't let you stay there. Because we know that human beings just produce so much more when you give them that little sense of challenge. And that's it in its most simplest sense. But then we give you course material so that if you're learning a new skill, like discriminatory processing, time on task, short-term memory, working memory, spatial memory, then we also increase the challenge of those games. So you're getting the challenge for attending to the challenge level in the game so that you're always pushed to your maximum, but never allowed to be overwhelmed and fail. Because that's where people get discouraged and then new neural networks won't form. So this was a key factor when we developed all the neurocognitive training. There's a lot of people have said, there's a company that just got a huge amount of money because they're creating a little iPad game that you can use and gyros and manipulate down it. It's supposed to develop. A kill interactive life? And I think it is. Yeah, it's Adam Gazelian. Yeah, and the idea is brilliant, but they've kind of isolated attention problems all to attention and some processing problems. The problem with ADHD is that it's vast and that it is a problem of executive function. Not only impulse control, but the ability to make good decisions. The ability to pay attention is still a factor. All of these are in there and there's far much more. And they actually have to have certain goals and certain skill sets that they just don't have, the ability to finish tasks. If you don't teach these skills, the short-term memory, working memory, spatial memory, even social cues, if you don't teach them, the students don't arrive at them by osmosis. So it has to be part of the curriculum. That's what I discovered back in the late 1980s and filed patents on being able to do that integration with Neurotek, because no one had thought of doing it. Everyone was just looking at brainwave patterns and saying, if we fix these brainwave patterns, the person's fixed, it's nonsensical. In a physical sense, if I'm trying to teach you something, teaching you to improve your brainwaves is not going to necessarily improve your golf game or your basketball game. I have to get you out on the court. We have to give you the challenge. We have to look at how engaged you are. Training your focus in general, though, will slowly help in those. If you're good at it already, it should make you better. But if I want to make you really good, and this is one of the things we did by using the wearable devices, is that we can allow you now to actually do the activity and we can watch your brain processes as you do it. Now, is the wearable the consumer good? That's the consumer good. It is. And so, is that already available? It's only available right now in the play-attention games. So, when you order the game, then you're able to get the neurofeedback wearable. Exactly. And then the, again, so there's the automotive component. There's the consumer good component when you go through the purchasing of the game as well. And then, what is the cost of the game right now? The games for full program for home use, which is two user licenses. So, you can use it with two of your kids at home or your spouse or yourself. Is $17.95, and that is the full course, though. So, if you are going to any center to get tutoring. That includes all the games? Includes all the games. Includes all the games. Okay. And then, and it includes a neurofeedback. And it includes totally free support for your life. So, you get an executive function coach, a person that has a master's in education. And they actually evaluate your data at any time you send in your data. They do full evaluation. It's no extra cost. You can have it for professional use for $2,500 essentially, and it's unlimited use. We don't recollect fees. That way, if you went to a tutoring center to try to get tutoring for problems, cognitive problems, you would pay between $3,000 to $8,000 on the light side. People often take second mortgages on their home to go through these processes. But you don't get as much out of it as you do in the neuro tech program, because you don't have those extra things that we've kind of combined in there. So, I want to do a couple of power round questions with you. Now, what is, again, is this when I'm wearing your neuro tech device? Am I, is it right, is it so close to my central nervous system? And my central nervous system, my brain is able to send that electrical signals able to be detected from something that is closer to my wrist, that your sensitivity is that high? Yeah, this equipment is sensitive down to 100 nanovolts. That's 10 to the minus 9 nanovolts. Wow, that's really sensitive, yeah. Well, in addition to that, it has to be coupled with incredible filtering to get out all of the junk that's between your head and this point in your arm, or maybe even on your ankle if you're a golfer. Interesting, and then would you say that then when you are focusing on the diver and the diver is going down in the game, and then you can tell as soon as the focus leaves the diver, the diver starts going back up towards the surface. And so, that's how this game is being played. Yeah, this process is very familiar for me because of vipassana meditation where you just sit and you observe your respiration through your nostrils and you observe and then your mind wanders and then you go, wow, I can't believe I just monkey-minded for 10 minutes out and about and blah, blah, blah, and you bring it back to your respiration. So it's interestingly training your focus in a similar way in that sense and just observing just the diver, observing just the diver, observing just the diver, making sure they go down, observing just that, not letting it go elsewhere. So there's about a half second, instead of wandering for 10 minutes? Yeah. There's maybe a half second latency between what's happening here and then the visualization of the... So the training is like... It's immediate. Immediate because you see the visualization of you losing your attention. Whereas when your mind just wanders, without a cue, your eyes are just closed and you just go off thinking, oh, email's, phone calls, meetings, this mom, dad, brother, sister. It just goes off. Sex, food, drugs, music, it's just everywhere. And so when you have a visual cue, you set half a second. Half a second latency. That's incredible. Then I can totally see how that can also do the peak performance stuff that you're talking about. That's huge. That can really help people zone in to what they want to achieve. Well, the third leg of this tripod is training. So we actually have Lotus App for people who want to meditate. So you sit in front of a lotus flower and it's closed. And then you hit a deep meditative, relaxed state, much like you're talking about by listening to your breathing cycles. I used to do that. I'm a martial artist since I was 10 years old, former professional fighter, all of that. So having that ability to see the lotus flower and then going through my engagement to it in that meditative state, you can open the Lotus petal by petal. When I lose the state, the petal starts to close up. That's pretty cool, too. So you have this immediacy right in front of you again. You can't lose it for 10 minutes. You have this right in front of you and you know where you have to be. So it cuts the time down of training and teaching yourself how to do this. It's very interesting. That's insightful. I think it's 2,500 years ago we didn't have. This is only, like you said, less than 2,500 years old. Interesting. Yeah, I can't believe it's also nuts to me that this is. If you would have told me, I only made this yesterday, I would have been like, yeah, it's because that's really the only that's the earliest we could have gotten that sensitivity. But you're like 25 years ago and I'm like, how is that? What? No, originally we actually had to use helmets, modified helmets. We did in 94. 94 is helmets. Modified helmets. Yeah, and today I started in 2005. When did you get the sensitivity down to 2005? Yeah, so it's been hard. I wouldn't have thought 14 years ago that we could have gotten that sensitivity. But it also does make sense that we were around then there. I think there's a lot of interesting, yeah, collaboration explorations between our networks of neuroscientists and these sort of peak performance experts, the ability to get instantaneous neurofeedback and then to be able to do cognitive enhancing gains. This is extremely important. I always talk about this, the peak of cognition is around this 23-ish, 24-ish age range. And so right when you're at that age range, you can literally start telling, yeah, sure, certain things pick up as though my vocabulary gets stronger over time, I can tell. But it is also true that you can't do your one hour of sleep night and then go and be like, the next day. Stuff, yeah. So there's certain things that if you do go and practice focusing on your attention on something like meditation or these games, and there's so many applications, what are some of the future applications that you're looking forward to developing? Well, we are working on forming another company that is going to work on communication and how to... One of the patents that I've got that is pending right now is that if we can monitor each other's neurosignal without touching and then can communicate it back and forth, we have this ability for nonverbal communication, the groundwork. So that is underway. But in a practical sense, even right now, since we have developed a decent drowsiness algorithm, we've reversed it so that, you know, when you were talking about your mind just being so... Yeah, racing. Racing at night when I'm lying. And this happens to everyone. I'm trying to go to sleep yet. I'm thinking about all the things that occurred during the day, then my mind wanders for that for a moment. Then it comes back and all the things I have to do tomorrow and these lists start forming and then I'm not asleep at all. And I have a very difficult time telling this computer to shut down. So we've created the Sleepy series so that we put the drowsiness detection in reverse so we actually push you into a state of drowsiness. How can I give you that state? So we actually have one called the Sleepy Beach app. And Sleepy Beach is just this 3D beach scene you can look at on your cell phone. And the sun's up in the sky. And so when you start to breathe deeply and relax and move your mind away from thought, you'll start to make the sunset. And then the stars start to come up and you'll be able to raise the moon. And we actually have a demo of that. Melatonin comes in. It is. You're actually teaching your brain to cooperate. I mean, this is one of the, I'm going to lecture here tomorrow or not lecture. I'm going to speak tomorrow and we'll demo a little bit tomorrow too during the presentation. But the idea is that the brain is an organ of reduction. All of this, all of this interaction between us, all of the people around us is reduced in the brain to the random firing of neurons. It's there. That's our inner universe. Yet we have no control over any of it, right? We don't know how to master this thing. This is our core tool. We have no idea how to master it. So we try these physical techniques. We'll try meditation. Then we find, oh gosh, I just wandered off for 10 minutes. That was a waste. Then I get back, I'll go for a couple more minutes and I wander for five and then I come back. So now we are giving people the tool they actually need to train this to be one of the most powerful assets they'll ever possess in their life. And one of the points tomorrow is going to be a quiet revolution that I'm going to talk about. AARP surveyed, I think, close to 50 or 60,000 of its members and sat out of everything that you want, what is most important to you? And of course you would think, well, I gotta have money. Wasn't that health? Health, yeah. Wasn't that? No, not cognition. Cognition, keeping my mind sharp was the number one priority because you can have all the money in the world but you've watched your friends dissolve to Alzheimer's. They have all the money they want. It's not helping. You can have health, but then your mind is going so it's almost related but we'll separate it, friend. But if my mind stays sharp. Sharpness of mind. Yeah, I can make good decisions and I can live a happy life. Let's retain that like 15 year old homeostatic capacity of the mind throughout our life that would be fantastic. I wanted to, does it almost seem as though you're giving people free will? We can't give them something that's already theirs. What we're giving them the ability to do is to use this tool to its maximum potential. For each individual that's different, you're already really insightful. You've done a lot. I can tell by the way that you're interacting with me. You know a lot about what we're talking about and that's uncommon but you're in this tech world you have experienced a lot. But now, my goal and passion has been to make this thing functional for everyone and make Neurotech functional. But in a car it functions one way, for training it functions another, for consumer products to help me go to sleep at night. It's very practical but we need to have, this is the time where we can control this thing. This is a time where as your cognition's peeking around at 23-24 that you have the ability to play these cognitive enhancing games and retain more of your focus over time that you can offset the onset of Neurage Generation. Yeah, this is very fascinating stuff. I'm glad we had the chance to sit down and explore it in a lot of its nuance. Is there something else about, for your logic that is important to know about? Are you, well, I'll let you answer that question. I'm curious about the sort of the neuro-cybernetics that you were discussing at the beginning as well. Is there a way that what you're understanding with the algorithms that you have put together that now somebody else can, you can open source some of that and someone else can potentially be able to understand the what's going on with brain activity and make something that helps in a different area or field. So it's like kind of, you're making the knowledge graph. Well, I think so, in a way it's possible to do but in a way we hold patents on the ability to take it from the body and have patent spending on the non-contact use but we will open that up eventually to let people have full use of it because that's where it's going to produce the best effects, I think, long term. But I've got to, you have probably a bunch of entrepreneurs that listen to your show, right? So I want to make certain I tell everybody this. I was told that I couldn't do this. I was told by, as a matter of fact, there is a venture company here, it's Jazz Ventures, I think. Oh yeah. Yeah, Jazz, we don't think you can do it. You know, we don't think you can do what you're saying you're doing. Yet we've already gotten awards for, and we're in one of the top 10 startups of the LA Auto Show right now. So we'll be down there at the end of this month. We also have been working solidly with Tier 1s and we're already doing it. I actually had fellows at CES, neuroscientists come down and sit on a sofa with a headrest behind them. They start controlling the computer screen in front of them and I had one of the funniest responses. One neuroscientist looks at me and he goes, so where are the switches, let me see your hands. So I opened my hands and I said, what are you talking about? He goes, this is magic, you can't do it. I said, you're doing it right now, you're controlling it. I can see that, but you have a switch. And he stands up and he flips up the sofa cushion at me. Where's the switch? I said, there is no switch. You're doing this right now, you can't do it. I said, but we are doing it. So I think if you are familiar with what was the fellow that wrote 2001? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so one of his tenants was new science and the ability to do things differently will often look like magic. It does, it does. And there's gonna be lots of naysayers and it's important to push through. You know, and I think a lot of people have traumatic stress around new science as well because like theranos and stuff like that. So shit like that comes up and then people are like, who do I trust? And so that's why I think another reason why it happens. But we have to have open-mindedness but also just enough like neuroticism to be able to really tap into the energy of the other person and be like, is this actually real? But you also have to have enough discipline in science to dig into the deepest understanding. Good point. Well, and we don't do any of our own evaluation or analysis on data that are monitored or acquired by third parties. So if an OEM or a tier one, we don't do that because then if we did it and we did that initially on one or two occasions, we sent them back the analysis and it was really good. And they go, well, you make it, you can say anything and that's true. So a certain amount of skepticism is very, very healthy. So we sent it off to University of Connecticut medical school, different places that could evaluate it. Samsung for example. And they've evaluated and given you. That's where these, when I told you about, yeah, these reports came from outside independent third parties. I'm not telling you I would do that because obviously just like theranos, you could come up with anything and keep it shining because you're producing your own results. But we went outside. And that's I think is the, oh, absolutely. That's a huge key to this process, to building trust. Was there something else on the way out that you thought I think was important? Of course on the entrepreneurial push, that was a huge point is go and execute and don't let people say you can't do it. Yeah, go and execute. You have to have the right people around you. Have people that will support you, whether it's a venture, your lawyers, your family, have people that will definitely support you. And I had been in the field since mid 1980s. And when I said, well, I'm going to try to do this through the body, I was told by a neuroscientist at Northwestern University. He said, I don't know if you can do it. And why would you want to? We can already get it from the head. I was like, but you're missing the point. It's never gonna break into consumer use if we keep it on the head. And he goes, oh yeah, you're right about that. Well, I don't know if you can do it. If you can't, I want one. And that's how we laughed about it and we left it like that. And of course we did create it and it has the correlates to EEG. We don't call it an EEG monitor. We have to call it a neuro monitor. You're making me really want to play the games. I really want to play them. Oh, that we can do. Yeah, let's. I'll set up and let you sit in front of the headrest and you can have at it. Let's do it. It's pretty cool. Let's do that. And then I would love for the people that come into our studio that are venture capitalists or neuroscientists or other prominent folks in the Bay, it would be really good for us to eat, to have a wearable in studio so that they can play the game of the deep sea diver and they can actually see, okay, let me. All right, I'll start thinking about my girlfriend. Oh, it's going up. So if they can actually see and play with it to see if that's another way, you get an experiential wisdom of this is truth because I'm experiencing this as truth. Otherwise it wouldn't be able to fluctuate the way that you're describing it. It would have trouble with that if it wasn't, yeah. Right, right. That you can see. And I'll be demoing that, the trans tech conference tomorrow at, I think it's a little after two in the afternoon, I'll be demonstrating it on the big stage, pull someone right out of the audience and have them control an auto simulator right on the screen in real time. And then I'll distract them and you'll see what happens. So that you can see it can be done in real time. And we've been able to go quite a distance with it and we continue to improve the hardware because we want to get more detail out. Someone from the audience to distract them because then they know that it's not you picking a certain time to distract them. Oh yeah, yeah. That's an interesting thought. Yeah, we can do that, that's not a problem. Yeah, that's it. Usually all you have to do is ask them one or two silly questions that they're listening to and then you can get them to drop it out. Yeah. So yeah, I'm making the hardware better. I'm excited to actually see the hardware as well. Okay, cool. This has been a lot of fun. Yeah, thank you so much. Good questions. Yeah. I've been to this rodeo before. I love interviewing so many people. Like you were saying before we started, it's just such an honor to be able to do this work. So Peter Freer, what a pleasure. Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you so much for coming on the show and teaching us about FreerLogic. So everyone, thank you for tuning in. Thank you for checking this episode out. Give us a shout out in the comments below. Let us know your thoughts. We'd love to hear from you. Check out the FreerLogic links in the bio. Also, check out transformative technology conference and go and build the future. Go and manifest the future and build it. Execute. Much love everyone. Thank you. Peace.