 Hey, GovCon Giants family, Eric Coffey here, your host of the GovCon Giants podcast, introducing our all new podcast, Making a Giant, that's being hosted by our very own Maria Martinez. In today's episode of Making a Giant, she interviews someone really special to us, Rafa Gifford. Rafa, actually if you have never heard her name before, she was on episode number 31 with Renona Brown discussing the VA entrepreneurial track and their education tracks. If you are a veteran and you're curious as to how to get the government to reimburse you for training and education, take a look at that episode where we went over that back in 2019. But today Rafa's on here for a very different reason, fast forward a few years and now Rafa is out there making her way and her mark in the world. Today we're discussing with Maria Martinez and Rafa how she landed not one or two but seven, that's right, seven contracts during the pandemic which is now propelling her to her future endeavors of partnering with a larger firm to go after bigger contracts. Stay tuned for that episode today with our next guest, Rafa Gifford. Today on our episode of Making a Giant, we have someone that we all seen before and we all have heard from and today she's here to share what has happened since the last time we've heard from her. So Rafa Gifford is the founder and CEO of Brave One and you guys might have heard from her back in episode 31 with Gavkan Jainz and Eric, where she told us on how she was able to use all the benefits from the VA to get her company up and going, to get her learning, to finding out how to do it but since then where has she been? So today we're going to find out the journey after getting everything put together and where she is now. So Rafa, thank you, thank you so much for being here, for wanting to share your journey because like I was telling you, every single story is going to resonate with somebody out there and people, we started this podcast actually because somebody wanted to hear our stories, our stories that we think they're so little and that we've struggled so much yet we haven't achieved as much but some people need that. Some people need to know how it is to get from the ground and start going up and finding things out. So thank you and I know that your story is going to be a great one today. Well, thanks a lot Maria. So just tell us a little bit about who you are, what your company does and where, how did you get started in all this? Okay. Raven One Contract Agency, we're located in Salisbury, North Carolina and I was an army engineer. I was in Afghanistan and Kuwait and then I came back, got out of the military. I took my voc rehab with the VA and I started learning how to do contracting. So my company does construction and I created the business in 2017. We went through the vocational rehabilitation briefing in number 31. And since then I have gotten, it's either seven or eight contracts. Wow. So now that you say it though, like 2017, we're only at the beginning of 2021. Your episode probably was 2019, yeah, it was pre-COVID. Everything happens pre-COVID. So the fact that you've gone from zero to seven or eight in the mass of what, two, three years, it's pretty incredible because a lot of people have done nothing. Like they're just so stuck on having to have everything just right, having to learn everything at once in order to get started and they're just stuck. So three years is pretty good. Well, what you said is true. You know, there's that inertia that comes with perfectionism and I was going through that process where getting my certifications, putting in different solicitations, not getting a contract, going two years without a contract. And then I subcontracted for a construction company at the Fayetteville VA. And after I did that subcontract, I did on a recycling contract where the contract officer came back and told me I was too high. And the truth is, I mean, it's my smallest contract. It was up for $12,000, which for one year of service really isn't that much. And she didn't award it to me because she said I was out of the price range. Eight months later, she came back and asked me if I would consider taking it at that price. So, you know, she wasn't able to do any better, even though she didn't take me on the first go-around. Did you accept it? No. You know, I told her I couldn't do it for less than that. You know, if you're going to follow the scope of work, you don't want to end up paying out of your own pocket. And that's very important, because a lot of people want, you went two years. So you know the feelings, what was going through your mind those two years of nothing happening? Like you had this big idea that you were going to get into government contracts. You did your time in the military. You know there's contracts out there, but then months come by and then another month and then you look back and it's been two years. And still. Absolutely. Yeah, there's this thing called the sunk cost factor where I'd already put two years of my life into it. I had invested my savings and there was a real chance that it wasn't ever going to happen for me. So I went through a period where I really had to look at myself and I had to ask, you know, do I have what it takes? And I went so far as to take another job, a part-time job because I just didn't see any progress. And then as soon as I took that position, I started getting calls from contracting officers and I was given a fence contract with the FAA and the contracting officer from the VA called with the recycling contract. And it just built up from there. So with knowing that two years have passed, you've heard nothing. And a lot of people would jump into the opportunity. You said there's no point of being in the contract if you're going to have to take out of your own pocket. Some people would actually even take that contract just to say they have something. So how I guess you're all the training you had and all the business information you had, you knew better than just take something just to get it. Because at the end of the day, and I say it all the time, we're not here to volunteer or time and our money. We put so much into it that it has to be worth it. And you had to say no, because it was not going to be worth it. I'd rather not have a contract than be so overwhelmed and doing so much for it to get nothing really in return. Absolutely. Yeah, I suppose there's some kind of art to bidding on a contract. But you really have to make notes of all these little things. For instance, when I put in the bid on the elevators, that was to replace about 800 square feet of tile in 22 elevators. And the vendor for the tile, he knew he was the only source. So he came and told me it was going to cost $17,000 for 800 square feet of tile. And my bid was $22,000. And that was labor and install. And I knew I wasn't going to see a profit if I went with him. And I tried asking other salesmen in the industry. And everybody kept putting me back to him. So I went to the contract officer and asked him if I could use a tile other than Target, I offered Mannington instead. So the contract officer came back and asked me if I was able to do the job without a price change. And I told him I would. So they allowed me to go forward. But had I just accepted it, I would have been out quite a bit of money on that job. Yeah. And like you said, that that part of it is an art because some of these people, I don't know if it's a woman thing, because I'm a GC and people look at me and they give me a price. And I'm like, no, I'm like, I've done this before. I know it does not cost that much for you to do this. I'm like, it can't take you that long. So you can't charge me this much. And that's when they realize I know a little bit more than what I appear to know. So some people do try to take advantage of that. So two years go by and nothing happens. And the recycling one, they want you to underbid your low, low price already. And then you said you got a fencing contract. So tell us, when did that first opportunity, that first light of hope come in? I think I really started seeing progress in October of 2020. At that time, right, during COVID. Well, they hadn't given me notice to proceed, but. For the because you won the fencing one. You were awarded the fencing one. Yes, one. I was actually awarded it back in March of 2020, right before covid became lockdown. Yes. So and I did. I thought I would be able to knock that out and move on to another project. But they kept putting it off and putting it off. They awarded me the contract in Charlotte, North Carolina. And then they gave me a follow and fencing contract in a place called Mount Pleasant, Indiana. So and then I had the recycling contract awarded to me. And then I bid on the elevator floor and contract and that was given to me. And my intent was to finish the flooring contract in February. So at that time, I had four contracts as a prime and I had subcontracted on two other contracts. Wow. So it went from nothing to now I have four going on. Right. Yeah. That was stressful, which one is stressful enough? Which one did you start first, the fencing one in North Carolina? Yes. Yeah. Was that as easy as because people think that, oh, you're awarded a contract and you start right away and you get paid right away. And it's all rainbows and unicorns. Right. No, no, that didn't happen. For one thing, I lost my fence installer. He ended up closing shop during covid. And my notice to proceed was the Monday after Thanksgiving, and I had been calling John and leaving messages and he wouldn't answer the phone. And then the Wednesday before Thanksgiving, about eight o'clock at night, he called me said, I had I had to close shop. I can't do this. I, you know, I declared bankruptcy and I'm taking a job with my uncle. So over the weekend, I found another fencing company to come in and take the job. Did it work out a little bit better? It did. Usually things like that happen. I've heard it from me. I know I've experienced it. I know other people have experiences like their sub just last minute pulls out. We're here frantically, like, oh, my God, what am I going to do now? And you find a sub and actually that new one does a whole lot better than it would have been on the other one. Some people even make a little bit more money than they initially thought they would. Yeah, I've noticed that too. And I don't know why it's like that. But this group, they were more they were able to do it faster. They gave me more staffing. I had more manpower and I think there was just this dynamic between John and me because he had been looking for the job since March. And as I got postponed it again and again, you know, he kept like saying, well, you know, I'm going to need some more money or we're going to have to renegotiate and in the end, he didn't follow through anyway. So now that you finished this first contract, you were able to close it out. And this was North Carolina. It was still in the same state that you're in. And you said right when you got that one, then you had another one in Indiana. I had the one in Indiana. How far away is that seven hours by car? So I ended up flying up there. I did the site visit and I had a company in Indiana do the walkthrough with me and agree to be my sub on that. OK, that's awesome. And that one was awarded to you as the prime again. Yes. Now, are these two fencing contracts? Were they open bid? I don't know that they were necessarily. I was made aware of them through Randy Randy Ward, which was also part of Gavkhan Giants. Yes, she's with Gavkhan Giants and she created a relationship with the FAA and she was given a list of work that needed to be done. And I let her know that I was on the West East Coast and that I would be interested in when I remember, because Eric even brought her up on YouTube Live to tell everybody about this. It was real. Absolutely. It's real. Yeah. So Randy's great. And then the other guy that's really good is Demetrius. Yes, yes. Yeah. He's come up in a few conversations with other people, how he's helped out and he's always on it. And that's what I tell people. If you actually if you sit back and listen, but you actually have to do the things and it works out. It's like you said, it's real. Right. Yeah. So you did Indiana. Everything worked out how it was supposed to. Yes, that one was easy. OK, that's good then. You always like those easy ones. You're in, you're out, everything goes smooth. And now the other one is the elevators. Where is the elevators when located? That's in Washington, D.C. And you're in North Carolina. So how far away is that? That's five hours by car. So you are you the prime? I was. Yeah, I I preferred doing prime to being a sub. Why is that? I like the control. And there are headaches, but I think ultimately knowing that I'm the one that has the invoicing, the one who is able to talk to the contracting officer, the one who's able to schedule, it just suits my temperament better. Yeah, because it's very important. Some people like that control and some other people are like, don't give me the paperwork, like I'll do the job. I won't do the paperwork. But at the end of the day, the paperwork is what gets it started. It's what keeps it going and what gets you paid. So it's very important to either do it yourself. And like you said, have control of it on your own or be with someone that you trust at the end. That's going to be able to make the paperwork flow. So did you go up to D.C. Oh, yeah, I went twice. I went in November. I'd mentioned that the original tile was being marketed at $17,000. And I challenged that and I replaced it with a like product. And I allowed the court to choose the colors for the flooring. And they chose a white and a light gray. And I told them, I said, I think maybe this gray is not the shade you think it is. But she's like, no, no, that's the one we want. So I brought it up to D.C. And I had my crew. I had all of my materials I'd paid for my hotel. I took the tile on the floor, we laid it out and she looked at it and she goes, oh, no, that's not what I thought it was. It's too light. And you had all the tile and you guys are ready to start working. Yeah, absolutely. I think that is worse than your sub pulling out. It was an absolute. I was sick to my stomach. I have boxes of tile. You picked it out. Like, how could it not be the one that you want now? Absolutely. And she came to me after the job and she said, oh, that thing about the front first tile, she goes, I'm so sorry. She goes, thank you for working with me. Oh, OK. That's nice, because it's nice to work with someone that appreciates those changes and the obstacles you went through. Some people just wouldn't care. Oh, God, yeah, that that really cut in. You know, I thought I was going to lose money on that project because I had five guys. I had a van. I had paid for three hotel rooms. I checked out early. We drove back home. Ash was with me. She flew back to Florida with America on it. And was she a a teaming partner? Was she a subcontinent? She was just teaming with you on it. Teaming with me. OK, so I went back. I paid the restocking fee to get the light gray turned back in and I got a darker color. And then when it came in, I scheduled to go back in early February and as you know, God would see fit. He had a storm coming in that weekend, but I'd agreed to be there Monday. So we drove up from North Carolina to D.C. in a snowstorm and Ash was going to try to fly up. But all the planes were grounded on the East Coast and she never made it up to D.C. And we ended up showing up on Monday. We began cutting the tiles and we worked four days straight, replacing the tiles in twenty two elevators. So when we did the walk through, the core was happy with it and she ended up giving us two follow on jobs. OK, so you did the elevators because of all your troubles with the color and driving and driving in a snowstorm which shows you're dedicated. Well, you know, that's I'm not going to let my projects fail. I mean, it sounds like pride, but half of its desperation, you know, put too much time into this to let it fall through because you got awarded September and then November was the first time you were going to even start. So two months after you get awarded, you're supposed to start. And then even after that, you have to reorder the tile and now you're back in February. Yeah. So things just don't happen as people think. Like, like I said, get awarded. Oh, next week we're in there. We're going to finish it four days and now I'm invoicing and I get paid. No, it takes a little bit of elbow grease, a little bit of tears, a little bit of breathing because to get sometimes it's just obstacles and we don't see those obstacle obstacles that we go through. But because I think you made that those changes and you worked with her, then they gave you the second job and then you said they even gave you a third job. Right. Right. And these are not jobs that are solicited out there. Like you started with one project, but because like you said, it's your face. It's your name of your company. You're the ones that are showing that you guys are able to do it. They saw what you guys did and now you have a second project and a third project. Yes, absolutely. So are you guys able to do the second and third one and that same trip because you guys are not DC from DC? Right. No, she is scheduling that later in the maybe early summer. OK, OK, so you haven't started it. No, no. Is it the same tile? One of the projects is ceramic tile, which means we're going to have to go in and tear up the old ceramic and put new tile in with grouting. And then the other job is a set of elevators, which will be the same type of material. OK. All right. So this time you guys are prepared and hopefully there's no storms in the summer. Oh, God, I hope not. I'm from Florida, so we don't have snow, but I can't imagine driving in the snow storm. Well, I kept asking them because even for North Carolina, an inch will close down everything, but DC was looking at eight inches and they said, no, we're going to be open. So like it's just a normal day. Yeah. So we have covered the fencing jobs, two of fencing jobs, and you have three up in DC, that's five. So we're missing two. Where are the other two come from? I have two asbestos removal jobs. So those are with the VA. And those are the first ones that came to me from a contract officer asking for me to put in a bid on that. And so they called you up. This is not like it was on Sam. It's not advertised anywhere. This was directly picking up the phone and giving you a call. Yes. Yeah. How did that feel? Oh, it felt great. I couldn't believe it. I was like, really? You want me to do this? So when he gave it to me, I had the paperwork back to him within probably two hours. And the next day I called to make sure everything was right. And when they came in for badging, I was there with them. And the crew was like, oh, we've never had a prime do this with us. I'm like, that's what I'm here for. So when have you started? When are you going to start those? One of them is going on now. And the next one will probably be maybe next month. OK, so you're busy. You have those. Where's this VA located? It's all with the Salisbury VA. OK, perfect. So it's close to home now. It is. OK. That's awesome. That's really good that you're. That you're next to being at home that these now they're calling you. And that's what we all think it's going to happen at the beginning. Some of us just have to wait a little bit longer. But like, and I just think those two years that nothing was happening, you're still putting in the work because we're just sitting back in. Oh, no. No, I tell you what, even today, I probably do two or three classes a week where I'm learning about IDIQs or BPAs or how to write a proposal or different ways to research solicitations. I'm always on it, you know, and my hours are not set. I mean, sometimes I work until 10, 11 o'clock at night. So and you still have that part-time job? Yes, part-time job. I know I think that might have been what knocked everything else in the motion. You know, God was sitting up there and said, well, you know, I guess you've waited long enough to start happening. Yeah. And once they started happening, you see them actually work. How does it feel now to have the contracts to have finished some? Because I know that after that first contract, when you get the initial email, you're so excited, like, I did it, I did it. But then actually getting the first pay or direct deposit these days is just a complete different feeling. How did you feel after that first one was complete? You know what? I still don't feel like I've arrived. I mean, I've listened to podcasts where people make million dollar contracts on the first bid and the first week of whatever they're doing. For me, it took two years. And with all of these contracts together, I'm still under 200,000. And I have people who are relying on me. I've got painters and pincers and flooring people who, you know, they look to me now, it's like, so, you know, can you keep us going? So I still had a little anxiety, but it's not so much the fear of failure. Now it's more, can I keep it going? What are you doing to keep it going? I'm actually talking to two companies. I'm starting my application for the eight a program. OK, what came? What made you get make that decision that now it's time to do it? Well, for one thing, I always heard people say, don't do this too early because it's a set amount of time. And now that I've got about one hundred and eighty thousand dollars worth of contracts, I think I have enough knowledge that I can keep looking for solicitations. But beyond that, there's another company that lost its SDVLSB and they have three program managers that have come to me and they've asked me if I can help bring them in and start working with their crews. So I think if I do this a day, I'll be able to get to that next size and start bidding on one hundred and fifty thousand dollar and above contract. And because you'll have the support of this bigger company to help you out. Yeah, and you have their team members and you're not trying to put pieces together because they have the team and we talk about it having a team of people and their support is very important because at some points like we can only do so much as ourselves and one or two people. We can't grow. And in order to grow, you have to bring more people in. Absolutely. And you know, that's a big thing. We talked about it earlier on my first few contracts, even with the flooring contract. I was the one pushing the trash cans to the dump. I was, you know, I was the one wiping off the glue from the tile after it's set. So now, you know, I'm going to go to the next step. I'm going to have project managers between myself putting in the beds, my project managers and then my subs. And I'll, you know, it's kind of a I don't know. I'm sure I'm going to be able to make it. But it takes a little bit of maneuvering to get there. Yeah, it takes maneuvering and it takes for me, it's a mindset of of if it's my project, like you said, you're the prime, you're responsible, it's your company out there. When I'm over the projects, I'm very hovering. Like I have to make sure that things are going right. I have to be there. I feel because it's mine. I have to do it like I'm the one that deals with the headaches. They're they're headaches, but they're my headaches to resolve. And then other projects that I've done that I just do the paperwork and let them take care of it. That first one was very hard. Like I was at work and I was like, oh, my God, I wonder what's going on. Is everything OK? Did they show up? But once it gets going and you let go, it's just like, OK, you just check in here and there. And it's a totally different feeling of of having someone else do it and not having that burden on you all the time. You know, that's the transition. You're right, Maria. I mean, if I can get to that, maybe I can start breathing or relaxing. You know, right now it's I do. I lay there at night and in my head, I'm like, OK, have I got the glue? Have I got the nails? Have I got the paint? Did I schedule my people? Did he do his TV test? Yeah, the tungsten work is my solicitation. Did it actually get to the destination it needed to go? So all the contracts I've had so far has been basically a one man show and then me finding subcontractors. The next step is managing that team and managing it. Yeah, managing it and being able to let go. And trust. Yeah. And trusting that they got this. You're not in the way I was put to me. It's like, I'm not the expert. Right. So let them do what they know how to do and you do what you know what to do. So just schedule them sometimes. Yeah, I'll make sure they show up. But once they're there, OK, you know exactly what we're doing. Yes, yes, yes. OK, let me know if you need anything. And that's going to be a beautiful place to be. And you'll get there because if you've seen how much growth you had in two years. So we went from where we were in episode 31 and you're just getting started, you still had to learn so much. But learning from a computer, learning from other people here in their stories, it's completely different from being out there and pouring concrete and watching them work and change orders. And this doesn't work now. Figure it out. Absolutely. Yeah, that that one post that Eric said, you know, the solicitation was easy. Completing the job is the hard part. That came right when I was in the middle of that elevator job. And it is the absolute truth. You know, it's it all looks good on paper, but it really is something when you get it to the final point. Yeah, being in the middle of it is. And then we look back and we're like, oh, that wasn't that bad. And then we do it to ourselves again. Well, that's absolutely. You know, I was at that point with that part time job where I would have been comfortable, you know, working from my home. Forty well, actually 30 hours a week and pulling a paycheck and not having to worry about having everything where it needs to be. But then there's a certain rush in trying to make. The business run. Oh, yeah. So it's the other thing to let go of. Yeah, it's it's where you're torn between stability and being comfortable, knowing that steady paychecks coming and then of your part time, but sometimes like full time jobs like me, it's like benefits like, wait, I don't have to pay four hundred, five hundred dollars for my health insurance. I know, right? And I'll tell you, I turned to my husband and I've asked him to consider leaving his business while he worked for the government. And he's basically not willing to give up that security. And I went back to it. So I'm talking firsthand. I went back to it and it's very easy to get comfortable. But then I still don't let go of gun. So like you said, and other people say, it's that rush of putting in that bid last minute, putting all the numbers and waiting for that email. And when it happens, it's like, OK, I did it. It's like, it's it's like chasing that next high, chasing that next like feeling that rush. And it's different. It's a different feeling. And people think entrepreneurs and small business owners are nuts for it. But it's the mentality that you keep it going. And at the end of the day, we're helping like those elevators. Some people see it like you said, it's a small job. But how many people go up and down those elevators in a historic building in Washington, DC? If you think of places you've been and what you've created, even though they're small, you have to think you have to step back and be like, huh, I did that. There's a nice feeling. My first fencing job, it's in Miami and I drive by it. And I was like, huh, I did that. Well, you know, I get it. I remember when my first fence went up, I kept asking Chris, come on, let's go look at that fence. And he's like, God, it's just a fence. I'm like, no, it's my fence. Exactly. So so eight is next. You're ready to chase those bigger. No, not you think you are. I am. You are ready to chase those bigger contracts that are going to give you that team of people. And you don't have to be that one person show. And that's a big move. It's it's a big move. But if you are already thinking about it, that's what I'm saying. You're there. If that thought came to your head, you are there. I am and you know the process now. And that's the biggest thing. You know the process of how things work. You put in the numbers, estimating an art form, picking a sub is important. And going through with it and having people in place and the paperwork, the paperwork is a lot and people. It's a lot and learning how to do it is a lot. But you you were there, you've learned it. You've used all the resources for it. I have, you know, I I'm really glad I came across GovCon Giants, you know, there's it's not an automatic thing. Even the P-TAC won't necessarily show you how to fill out a 1449 or tell you that getting awarded a contract is not necessarily the same as getting the notice to proceed on the contract. You know, there's little nuances that you just don't hear about. And there's been great support with the GovCon Giants community. I mentioned Randy. I mentioned Ash and Demetrius. And, you know, you've inspired me. So when I first started listening and I started following Eric, you know, he's like the goal, right? I mean, seeing how upbeat he is and how his his enthusiasm never falters or anything. It's like, oh, I want to be like that. It wasn't like that for me. But, you know, having having everybody else there with me and and, you know, giving them moral support and answering questions when I had them, it got me to this next step. And you're right. I mean, the eight eight. A big part of that is because there are probably 15 people who are looking to me to help give it them an income. And that means something to me. Yeah. And you're helping other people at the same time. Right. And you're helping keep, especially during these days, like you help them keep going because right now things are hard. And yeah, I haven't stopped during COVID, but a lot of people have. A lot of people lost their jobs. A lot of people. It's hard to keep it going, keep a business going. It's very hard. Yet you've yours actually grew during the COVID, right? Yeah, check that out. See, you made it two years and everything was fine. There's no pandemic. Economy is rising and then COVID hit and it allowed your business to do it. And it's all because it's federal, though. It's federal. Yeah, federal government as we all know, it's not going to stop. No, I don't see any end with the federal government. You know, with the new change in our parties, I don't see it's long down at all. So eight days next, bigger contracts are next. How do you keep everything going? Just like your mindset, the learning, like what advice would you give going through everything you've gone through? What advice would you give someone that's starting out? My advice, don't give up, have endurance, be stubborn. I had a lot of I had a lot of nose before I came to that first. Yes. And like I said, my very, my very, very first contract with the FAA, that was less than 40,000. And then the next one was 12th. So I got my success from a bunch of little awards, but it all builds on itself. And I learn every day I've had to become more organized. I have to keep better files. But I don't ever step away and say, oh, you know, I've made it. It's a it's a continual process. And what about and you touched on it? What about those people that are stuck in those two years waiting it out? Because you were that waiting process is hard. Starting as hard, but the waiting is harder. I think it is. It is, you know, I was really sitting there thinking. This isn't for me. I'm, you know, I failed at this. I gave it I gave it too hard years. I put my savings into it. I I worked on websites. I went to industry days. I, you know, I sent out resumes and cap statements and and nothing ever budged. So I'm not an overnight success. And it isn't necessarily something that happens quickly. But I really believe if if you're committed and you keep pushing, it will eventually opportunity will present itself to you. And what keeps you going? I like the adrenaline, just like you said. And I'm really stubborn. I mean, I have this fear of failure and I just don't want to back off because I I just believe I can do it. I believe it's there. Something else, when I do get big enough, I, you know, I will give opportunities to people in the GovCon community to come and sub under me just to get that start. Because the first contract, it can be pretty hard to find. Yeah. And I think it goes with the waiting to to get that first contract. And and like you said, like you were able to Randy was able to help you in making a connection to get that first one. For me, it was Eric. Eric was that first contract I had. It was because they called him and I was able to put it together. So we all need that sense of community. It's hard. It gets lonely. It gets lonely sometimes. And people around us don't understand why or what we're doing. It took a few years for people to know what I do. And they still don't know. But but it takes a community of people to help you, to support you, to, like you said, answer questions or understand what you're talking about and be there. And that's why we're doing this, is like to tell them, like, keep going. It's OK to feel overwhelmed. It's OK to feel like you're ready to give up and throw your hands up and say, I'm done, like I can't give no more. But you have to keep that thought and you're the wise of why you started and what you want to achieve. And like you have a goal, everyone should have a goal. Maybe maybe some of our goals are not from day one. Have a two million dollar contract, but but have smaller goals because those are just stepping stones just like any part of life. Those are just stepping stones into where we want to go. When do you feel brave one would reach its goal? What is brave one school next goal? After the day. Well, I did a site visit on an eight million dollar parking garage. And I'd like to get myself a position to do work like that. OK. Yeah. So I looked at some hospital construction and, you know, with the sanitary requirements for, you know, sterile environments for hospitals. I'm not that interested in going into that arena. But I would love to have two or three projects open. To where I can keep probably 30 people and that's awesome. And it's awesome that you're actually, even though you're you don't feel you're there yet, you're going to the site visits that you're putting it out there in the universe and you're seeing where you want to be. Oh, there's a lot of truth in that. Yeah, because you have to see where you want to be. If not, it's not going to be real to you. And if it's in front of you, it is real. Like, OK, I know what I need to do. I know what steps I need to take. I know what I exactly to get right here to be able to do this project. You're right now. You're right. And this thing about putting it up to the universe, I think that's true, too. You know, it's I didn't start this with the belief that, oh, I'm going to fail. You know, I always think I'm going to win. I always believe I'm going to get that next contract. So and eventually it became the truth. Eventually it started happening. Yeah, any last words, any words of wisdom you offer all of us out here trying to make it? You know, Maria, when you contacted me to talk to me about this, I really thought there's nothing interesting about what I do. I'm not charismatic. I, you know, I got here because I just did the work. I just kept pushing and there's nothing special about me. Anybody else who puts in the time and effort will find themselves in my position. So don't give up hope, you know, keep working and stay true to your your goals. Awesome. And do you mind telling us all the resources you've used to help you learn? Well, of course, I use the GovCon Giants program. I did the first course. What was it, 19 units? Yeah, it was like nine at the beginning. OK, but then the business side of it, you use the VA. I did. I got a vocational rehab to put me in an apprenticeship program where I've learned to do sales and marketing to the government. And North Carolina has this organization called the North Carolina Military Business Center and they host industry days and stuff. I've done a few classes. I haven't gotten a ton of traction from them. And here's something. This is really important. The Small Business Administration has a grant for small businesses with a company called Bidspeed. Go to Bidspeed.com and register for the SBA portal and tell them that you're a small business and it will help you navigate beta.sam. And that's another resource that I use. That's awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time. We love to hear that ever since you started, last time we heard from you, that you've grown, that you've achieved that first contract and the second and the third and the fourth and the fifth and the sixth and the seventh and that you've persevered because you pushed through even if that first contract wasn't the greatest and it brought us obstacles that you've kept it going. And I don't know if it's just your mindset, the fact that you were in the military and you overcame all that and overcame and overcame that keeps you going. And it says a lot and I love to feature women. I love to feature women entrepreneurs because I don't people and especially you're in construction and people don't see us there. People don't see you and think, oh, cool way. Afghanistan, construction, God, God. And I want to tell people like people like you and me, we could do it. Like we could do it. Like it's nothing like if we could do it, you could do it. And for me, that's why I went back to teaching. It's like, I want to inspire all the kids to know that it's everything's possible with work, time, dedication, though, it's not going to come to you. But you can make it to where you want it to be. So absolutely. Yeah, I think with you teaching those children there, you know, gives them hope. Years down the road, you know, one of these kids would come back and say, oh, do you remember when you told me this in school? Yeah, so we'll see where my journey goes. But I'm so glad that yours has turned out to a lot of success. And next one would you would be on Eric's on the other side at Eric's GovCon Giants featuring where you are now. And it's crazy. Well, you're talking crazy. No, it's real. Put it out there and it'll come. But thank you once again for everything. And thank you for coming on again.