 I am excited and it is Tuesdays with Tony, as we have referred to this before, thrilled to get us started. And Tony, I have to say, you have a fan club, as you know, we've already heard from a couple of previous guests that have tuned in for other segments of the fundraising academy, cause selling education. And this individual literally was like, I cannot wait for today, you know, we're moving into another phase and this is new. So, so glad to have you here as a representative, of course, with Fundraising Academy to share more with us and all of our viewers about the cause selling education. So thank you, Tony, for not only being here, but being a sponsor. You see that purple, it's right there in front of you also in the presenting sponsor slide. We are so grateful to have Fundraising Academy and each and every one of these amazing companies. You know, they're here to elevate our show, our conversation, but they're really here to elevate you. And I'm pointing at the camera because as all of you that are watching, that's right. Thank you for joining me because they really are here to lean into your cause, help you provide solutions to the problems in your community. So thank you. Thank you to our presenting sponsors. Please do go find them online, give them a like and some love. And Julia, thank you for creating the non-profit show. Julia is the CEO of the American non-profit. I am so thrilled to join you each and every morning to serve with you on the non-profit show. I'm Jarrett Ransom, also known as the non-profit nerd, CEO of the Raven Group. And this week, I feel like it has already been chocked full, but it's only Tuesday. It's only Tuesday. It's only Tuesday. And again, we're kind of calling it Tuesdays with Tony. And we didn't name that, but one of you, one of our Raven fans definitely did. So Tony Bell, thank you and welcome back. Thank you so much. You know, I say it all the time. I really look forward to our conversations. I welcome the opportunity to be able to share the cost-selling strategies with fundraisers across the country and worldwide, right? Because your distribution of the non-profit show is so phenomenal. But it is, it's always a pleasure and I always look forward to the conversation. So thank you again for welcoming me back. Well, it's a lot of fun. And it's been really great to, over time, in a calm and very meticulous way to break this down. And so before we get going on today, let's quickly chat about cost-selling. It's actually, I don't know, do you like the word formula or process or approach? Like, yeah, I typically say process or approach, right? It's, it's, it is a roadmap to be successful with relationship-driven fundraising. I love it. Well, today we're starting on phase three, which blows my mind. We're already at phase three and we're going to be talking about step seven, which is my favorite thing. It's almost like the proposal. It's the ask. There's, I guess, almost as much anxiety around it for some folks as a proposal. You know, Jared always, her eyes light up. She always says, I get really excited. I get really, you know, energized to do this. And I always think, you know, that's the magic. When you have somebody like Jared who gets excited and see this as an opportunity, that's what we should all be striving for. And I will say, and I said this during our last episode, I believe, Tony, oh my God, I wish I had this process when I was like earlier in my career, because I would have felt so much joy that I feel today early on. So this is such a great system, such a great process for everyone, regardless of where you are in your career. Absolutely. Thank you for saying that, Jared. And I know I sound like a broken record around that as well. I always, you know, am saying the same thing. I wish I had had this, you know, 20 some years ago when I first stepped into the sector, it would have been much more successful and felt more empowered if I had had this type of curriculum to help guide me early in my career. Yeah, I agree. And as this slide shows mindset, right, like, and I believe I live wholeheartedly in my life about mindset, like this growth model mindset, how is our mind, you know, because we ourselves can be our own worst enemies to not achieve a goal, not to achieve a goal. So talk to us about the mindset here. Yeah. So the mindset is that, you know, because we have been great cause selling champions, and we've successfully gone through the other steps of the cycle, by the time we get to the ask, we're confirming the gift. We understand where the donor is in terms of their capacity to give their passion about the organization, you know, the cause, the work that we're doing. So it really is a confirmation of the gift more so than an ask. Because again, we've built the relationship by the time you get to this place, they're anticipating that question. I love that. And I I'm so struck with what you had said earlier. And that was the empowerment. And if you followed this path, it's going to be more comfortable for everyone is what I hear you saying. Absolutely. You know, for the donor, for your team, for yourself, for whomever you might take to that meeting, it's going to be a lot more natural. You know, I want to add even the board member, because often I think when we can engage our board members in making the ask and really any part of this of this system, I think it it continues to empower other people, right. And so we're modeling how the system works. And so the board member may not be the first point of contact between here, they are part of the process. And when it comes to the ask, they may play a role in that. Yeah, absolutely. Right, depending on how that potential donor has has ended up on your prospecting list, it might have been a referral from a board member. So at some point, you're going to want to, you know, engage the board member in the process, because they have an existing relationship. And you brought up something really interesting that we haven't really talked about in relation to cost selling, like I said, it's a roadmap for relationship driven fundraising. And we talk a lot about that being the relationship that we develop one on one, you know, with with a potential donor, where I've seen the board member participation really provide, you know, great outcomes is in sponsorship, right. So when you are sitting down with, you know, with the corporation or someone and you bring that board member in, just the level of credibility around the organization, because this board member who they know is volunteering their time, care so much to invest their time to come to that meeting and represent. So I say that because this cycle also works when you are building relationships with those key gatekeepers or decision makers within corporations for sponsorships. Great, Tony. Super, super important idea. And I think that it also gives permission to those board members to get involved and to see what goes on, as opposed just reading the reports once a month and then, you know, kind of shaming the development team. We all know, I mean, we've all seen that, unfortunately. You said it, you said it, Julie, I didn't say it. Well, I'm sorry, but I think there's a V in my office. But Jared, thank you for bringing that up, because we, you know, we need to often remind ourselves of of how board members can be engaged in this team activity. Yeah. Julie is being bombarded over there. Closing, you know, ABC always be closing. This is a great segment of a movie. And, you know, it has come up so often in my life about ABC, you know, and that means always be closing. So how does the model or the system rather, Tony, how does it address the closing of this? Yeah. So basically, what we're what we're saying here is, you know, always be closing, is being mindful that every interaction with your potential donor is leading to supporting your closing from that very first moment of interaction, that moment of truth that I call it, you know, that that first engagement, whether it's on the phone, whether it's via Zoom, whether, you know, you're out at a coffee shop, whatever that is, just, oh, you know, be mindful that you're always closing. Every interaction leads to that, that close. Wow. And so you said that even starts the beginning, you call it a moment of truth. I love that. And that to me, when I hear you say that, it kind of fits into the whole mindset concept. Like you are marching towards something and it's, as Jared always says, it's that return on relationship understanding that, you know, this is where it's flowing. Really, really cool. I love that. I think ABC is always a good thing to be remembering. Always be closing. Always be closing. Now you talk about this in terms of effective, like a pathway for effective closing strategies. And you have several and I'd love to go through those with you. So number one, be assumptive. Yeah. So, you know, so I just want to share too with, with the folks that are joining us that our curriculum around the ask is really deep. So today, you know, we're pulling out some of the nuggets, right? That there's like, you know, we could have a whole session just on be assumptive. So I just wanted to share the, you know, that, that we're really pulling out just some of the golden nuggets around these, but be assumptive again, is kind of that mindset. Assume success, right? You are not asking a stranger because you have gone through the cost selling process. So you should have that, you know, that assumptive feeling when you walk in that you can assume that this is going to go in the right direction because you've had the conversations, you know that your potential donor is ready for this conversation. Right. Because that's pieces. Thank you for really putting this into, into perspective here. We are diving deep into this and really touching the high levels. But if you look down on the slide in front of you, you'll see kind of that coral color that might not be the right like Pantone color, but the coral color there and not also and then the darker blue. So that those steps and phases of this really dove into basically what you just said, Tony, is we should be assumptive because we've done our homework, we've researched them on Zillow. That was one of the tips, right? We've done all of this work to engage them in conversation, but now we are in the step where we are engaging them with an invitation to make a sizable perhaps donation. So yes, I'm just glad that you really put this into perspective because there is so much more to talk about each and every one of these strategies and we are barely scratching the surface with just some high level tips here. Absolutely. Now you talked about another piece of this is it's okay to say there are benefits that when you engage in a donation, especially a sizable donation, there are benefits and it's not just like feeling good, it can be very, very specific. So what does that look like? Yeah. So when we talk about provide summary of benefits, we're talking about the benefit to the donor, but also the benefit to the organization, we're reminding them of the benefit of their investment to the organization and how that investment is going to benefit the community that's being served by the nonprofit. So we're reminding them of those benefits because again, we've learned through the course of our needs discovery and getting to know our potential donor, what in our organization they're passionate about. Is it a specific program that is we currently have? Is it something that is futuristic that we're going to launch that they're really excited about? So it's reminding them during the ask of these benefits that have kept them engaged in this conversation with you to get to this point where you're going to make the ask. And then it's reminding them of the benefits to themselves, which hopefully again that you've uncovered throughout the course of developing your relationship. Yeah, I like that. I think that's smart. And I think that's something that a lot of times we don't do. It seems to me that when I think about this, we don't always kind of share that. And I think especially when you're looking at sponsors where there might be naming rights or there might be additional engagement pieces, that becomes something helpful in making a decision, don't you think? Yeah, absolutely. And maybe there's a matching gift opportunity. I mean, depending on the size of their gift, maybe you want to have the conversation about their gift becoming a matching gift, so that it will encourage others to follow their lead. So again, there's so much we can talk about around the benefits for both the donor and the organization. But in your closing, it's beneficial to remind them of the benefits that have been identified along the way. And so just before we go on to strategy number three, you're really saying that this should not be a surprise. It really should be a summary that you've already had these discussions. And as Jared said, if you follow the path, you've been pulling all these pieces together. Absolutely. And a key here also, it's recommended that you do not offer a new benefit. Okay. Right? Because if you're at the point where you're making an ask, your presentation has probably in most cases supported a specific x, y, and z, a specific benefit. So when you get to the ask, you don't want to confuse the decision-making process with a new benefit. You want to stay consistent from the previous conversations. Absolutely. That makes tons of sense. Yeah. Naturally, we're like, oh, but I'm going to throw one more benefit in there. I'm going to sweeten the pie, right? And what I just heard you say, Tony, is that adds confusion and complexity that may actually hinder the assumptiveness that you made before. And it could counter, you know, counteract. Absolutely. And you may be assuming the wrong thing by adding that by thinking it's a benefit where in fact it could trigger something that now they have more questions. Right. Hard to think about like, nope, can't do this right now. Right, right. So, you know, so you have to be careful around that and you have to, you know, be strategic. And if you're going to introduce a new benefit, do it with intention and understand what the, you know, what the response may or may not be in doing so. Wow. So now going on to effective closing strategy number three, ask directly for the gift. Just ask for it. Just come right out, be straightforward and just ask for it. Yes. So, you know, so there were some relationships that we developed where we have that kind of comfort level, right? Or depending on the social style of the potential donor, you know, that donor may be a driver. And once, you know, I don't need a whole lot of, you know, of sparkles and confetti and, you know, and fireworks, just I want to know what it is that you're going to ask before. Just be, you know, be direct. But in doing so, try and use terminology like we, when we partner together to support these, you know, so really just leaning into to, you know, that kind of terminology like we staying away from negative terms like don't. So something you want to stay away from would be if I'm talking to the donor, I might say, well, don't you want to support us? Right. So, you know, in psychology into that, I was in a leadership program and I used to, I no longer would say, in my emails, please don't hesitate to contact me. Well, really, what I'm telling them to do is to hesitate to contact. That don't and the negative words out of your language really elevates the assumptions for that, you know, successful ask. And so I love that you bring this up because when I heard this in the leadership program, it blew my mind. I had not heard that before because even like now our predictive text just throws that in there as the assumption that that's what we say. And I have to always delete that negative word. So that is wonderful. I think, again, that tip, if I knew that 20 years ago, right there with you, Tony, I would have been so much more successful. Yes, exactly. That in the way, right? I mean, it just seems so obvious, right, that this work is all, you know, collaboration. When a donor invests in our organization, it's collective impact, right? It's all of us coming together. So it just seems so natural and organic that we would use terminology like we, but I am a development officer and I have goals to reach and I have expectations from my board of directors and from my executive director CEO. I have expectations from the community that I serve. So, you know, so it's easy when we're making the ask to say I because there's so many things that I know I need to do and own and be responsible for. Instead of we have the opportunity to make it impact. Yes. So using is really powerful. I love that. And that goes to then looking at number four of the effective closing strategies. Ask for a specific amount. Yes. As for a specific amount, again, through your cost-selling process, because remember, you're a cost-selling champion. So through your cost-selling process, you should have been able to, through conversation with the potential donor, come to some speculation around the level of gift that they may be capable of giving. So, Jared brought up, you know, some of our techniques that you can use. Zillow, I mean, there are techniques that you can use to get an understanding of a potential donor's assets. It doesn't tell the whole story, but you can get some information there to help, again, to help you kind of gauge what number you may want to throw out there when you're asking for the specific amount. The other thing to keep in mind is to try not to under-ask, right? Ask an amount that is going to challenge the donor. If you ask for $50,000, the donor will easily say, well, that's not capable, but I can make a $10,000 gift. Right. I can make a $25,000 gift. Rarely, if you ask for $10,000, will the donor say, oh, well, I could do $25,000. So, you know, they're typically, you know, willing to have the conversation about whittling that down, but rarely are they going to say, well, you under-asked. Here's, you know, here's another $20,000 for you. And I have heard, Tony, this hasn't happened to me, but I have heard from some of my peers, you know, that if they made an ask too large, let's say $50,000, they literally have had the person say to them, wow, I'm honored that you considered me at this level. So they really saw that as a positive, not a negative, right? So really as, you know, wow, I'm honored that you thought of me coming in at this transformational level. And so I, again, just know that it's not, you know, end of conversation. There's still so much more to the conversation. But Tony, you blew my mind earlier when you said, and I can't remember if it was our chitty chat chat or when it was, but it was definitely today. And ask the donor what their largest gift has been before. Yeah, so that's mind-blowing. Yeah. So, you know, as part of your needs discovery, and again, you know, I recognize that this isn't going to be the scenario with every relationship that you're building, right? But you're going to have those opportunities where, you know, the relationship is such that you can ask during the needs discovery part of the cause selling cycle, I'm curious, what's the largest gift you've ever given to an organization? And how did that make you feel? How did that make you feel? I think that's the powerful piece. How did it make you feel? You know, and maybe, you know, and maybe they'll answer and maybe they won't. So then, so if they say, well, I really don't want to share with you the, you know, the amount, then ask the question again, that, you know, say, well, that's fine. But how did it make you feel? Yes. I love it. Go ahead and use the opportunity to drive, you know, to drive and engage more passion. Perfect. Yeah, I love that. Because to me, when you engage more fully, it speaks to what you've been talking about all along is the mindset and unlocking the fear that you would have, but really pulling that person in in a more collaborative way. And you said, you know, we have to be using the word we and when you have somebody that can witness to you, like the joy of their philanthropy and the meaning behind their gift to me, that is what Jared always says, return on relationship. That is that piece that's binding you in a more sustainable way as a instead of just, okay, here's a check, get off my back, you know, type of thing. Right. And another thing to watch out for is during the course of the ask, your anxiety, your, you know, you could just all of a sudden build up some anxiety and then at the last minute decide to under ask. So go in being mindful of what you want to ask for and stick with it. Don't let anything in the environment or any self created anxiety during the process of the ask make you all of a sudden in that one tiny moment, ask for less than you went in intending to ask for. So I don't know if you advise this, but I've done this before where I always, because I'm a visual person, I always come in with a tangible item. And again, via the phone, via email, via, you know, zoom or video conference, and the ask is written down that way I cannot. Mark, that's a smart thing. Hey, everybody, I want to remind you that we are here with Tony Bell, a fundraising Academy. We've been talking about effective closing strategies, Rhonda point five, we are going to go a little bit over our normal, a lot of times to stay with us. If you have to jump off because your day has involved you in something else, maybe you're going to ask a donor. And we hope you are. Oh yeah, good luck. It's a mindset. You can always get the rest of this as well as all the other shows that we've done with Tony and Fundraising Academy on our archive. Okay, so now after I said all that, the screen says remain silent. Which is which which, thank you, Julia, you proved is just so difficult, right? Just by nature, it's so difficult for for most of us to live in any space of silence. But once you have finally made the ask, zip it, give the potential donor the space to respond. Okay, now we're all like, I know that was our moment of silence, right? It was totally uncomfortable. But that's when you have to, I did that, definitely, that you, you know, you have to learn to to embrace that. Because if you fill the void, you, you, you know, again, you could make the wrong assumption in filling the void. So just leave the silence that you have asked an open-ended question, right? You haven't ended the ask in a closed-ended question. You've ended the ask in an open-ended question. So the potential donor knows that you're waiting for them to respond. So live in the silence, live in the silence, take a drink of your coffee, your tea, whatever it is. I also recommend that you do eye contact, right? Like as best as you can. It doesn't mean that you check your phone or that you write something down, like stay confident, you know, and then use that opportunity to take a sip of whatever it even if you're not thirsty, take a sip. Right. You cannot speak when you're drinking. I love it. Oh my gosh. Well, you know, so then not to be like Nancy negative, but if you are moving through this process, which I think you've, if you really followed this and you've really tried to navigate your mindset to be positive and I love that word, assumptive, and yet you stumble or you fail to close. You've got some ways to navigate this and they're pretty smart because you're not just saying, okay, see you later, never darken my door. You're going to go back and kind of think about what has happened. So let's talk about that. Because this, to me, when I see this Tony, it makes me think that you haven't done your work. Well, I mean, that could, that could be part of it. That could be part of it, but that's not always the scenario, right? So here we talk a little bit about timing. Something may have changed in that potential donor's life where now just the timing isn't good. Everything leading up to this conversation may have indicated differently, but then once you're there and making the ask, something changed, right? So it may not, you know, may not have anything to do with the work that you've done in preparing to make the ask. But where we might have missed, you know, some opportunities and better understanding the potential donor and their commitment might have been in the need discovery. Maybe we need to go back and again, you will know best whether or not a failure to close opens the door for you to continue a conversation or if you should just thank them for their time, celebrate their interest in philanthropy and move on. Right? So again, that's a whole conversation to itself, but and you'll know that again, because this is not a stranger that you're talking to. So, you know, there may have been some inadequate prospecting in the qualification process. Again, insufficient need discovery. There may have been a critical question we didn't ask or maybe we weren't listening as intently as we should have and missed a piece of information. It could be any number of things. But it doesn't mean, again, a failure to close may just mean come back to me later. It may mean that you need to go back to the need discovery part of the cycle with this potential donor, engage in some more conversations, and then work yourself back up to a presentation and an ask, you know, at another time. So let me ask you this question. Would it be appropriate to say very honestly, are you comfortable with us just continuing this discussion? Or do you feel like maybe another time? Or do you know what I'm saying? Like, how far do you push or how far do you communicate that is the door open or is the door closed? So typically what I would do, this is what has worked for me, is I would usually set some timeframe that I would follow up with them. But I'm going to follow up with them to give them an update on the programs that they were interested in funding. Love it. Love it. So I'm going to be giving them some type of update. It's not coming back to, I'm not going to start again at the ask. Yeah. That next meeting is not me starting again at the ask. It's me starting somewhere else in the cycle, and it's me giving them an update on where the organization is. I love that. In my head, again, very visual. I'm thinking shoots and ladders, right? The game, the board game, shoot the ladders. So it's not like we're going straight back to the beginning. Right. You know, we're still staying in that ask area. And I always use this opportunity when available, you know, to say, I would love to continue the conversation. And in fact, we have X, Y, and Z event coming up with love for you to come and attend as my guest. And so we can keep the conversation going. So if you are interested and the timing is better, I want to make sure that you stay informed. Right. Exactly. And then there might be opportunities, you know, if we're talking about a potential for a major donor, maybe there's an advisory board that you might offer for them to participate in so that they become, you know, connected in a deeper way with the organization. It makes your next, you know, your next ask a little easier, maybe. Nailas are starting to open up, right? They are. Looking at what that looks like. Even in a virtual space, hybrid space, some in person, depending on your community. So use this as an opportunity to invite this individual, maybe someone else, right, would love to invite you and a guest or your partner, spouse, whomever. Join me as my guest and use that as part of it. Flipping the script here, Tony, this is a bit of a curveball, but I hope you don't feel I'm backing you in the corner here. I have a client that's working on a capital campaign, and they just found out that another organization is about to launch their capital campaign. So now they're thinking timing is critical, right? And so we need to ask the people on our list before the other organization asks. So when it comes to timing, I guess I want to reiterate that sometimes you could wait too long, right? And that it's better to ask earlier than later. But what would you, and again, completely curveball question, what would you recommend when you've been working on this process and you find out there's another potential big ask from a community leader to the same supporter? Love that question. Yeah, no, that's a great question. I'm trying to think of a good kind of solid answer to that. I'm asking myself more questions and I'm providing myself with answers, right? So the first thing is, is the other organization in the same kind of, do they have a similar mission? So that might make me think about what am I going to do? Am I going to continue to move forward? Or is the competition really just going to crush me? And I use words like competition because that's, again, 501c3 is a tax status, not a business model. I don't think of us as competitors, right? I think of our curriculum at the Fund Racing Academy is an added value to the other professional development that's offered in the sector. I don't look at any of it as competition, it's all value add. So I would consider those kinds of things. People tend to give to more than one organization that they're passionate about. So I wouldn't automatically think that if Mr. and Mrs. Jones are getting approached by organization A, B, and C and getting approached by us, they may very well give to both. Yeah, great point. Yeah, thank you. Again, I know it's a curve ball, but that is a real like time scenario that happens. It is. Yeah, I do feel as we all move into the recovery phase from the global pandemic, and I realized we're still in it or we're working towards recovery. I do feel a lot of organizations will be either increasing their annual campaigns or launching capitals. And so that's something to consider. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, well, thanks. I usually get those curve balls from Julia. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. Well, that's kind of true. But I really like I'm sitting here going, yeah, I get I can see that, Jared. So thank you. Well, and especially with capital campaigns, it's a challenge, right? Because we all know how much work goes into a capital campaign, you know, just the silent stage, right? Because you're trying to raise at least 50% before you go public. There's a lot of challenges. Well, we let some continue about the reality of sometimes not moving forward the way you want with the ask or having some issues with closing. And since we're really focusing in on that ABC, always be closing, you talk about recognizing some signals. And sometimes this can be really, really hard, especially if we are so worried about what we're saying, what we're thinking, what we're asking. And we can't understand what's going on across the table. You talk about the chef technique. Yeah, so this is a fun part of part of our curriculum. So, you know, when we talk about recognizing signals, right, we have an opportunity to recognize verbal and nonverbal signals from our potential donors. And even, you know, even on Zoom, it's easy to recognize some of those symbols. So this chef technique talks about, like, you know, the chin and the cheek. Are we touching our chin? Are we holding our cheeks? So we kind of dive into, you know, what might that mean? And in most cases, it's an affirmative. You know, they're listening, they're thinking. So there isn't really a whole lot of negative connotations that come along with folks rubbing their chin or, you know, or touching their cheek. The H is the hands, which can be a little more difficult on Zoom. But, you know, fidgety with the hands, hands kind of calm in their lap. You know, so just recognizing some of the, and I do pretty good on Zoom. Sometimes I can be all over the place, right? Because I get so passionate and animated about it. So I hold my hands like this during our Zoom calls, so that, you know, they're not flying all over the place. But that's what the H is. It's really looking at, you know, what are folks doing with their hands and what might that tell you, you know, in terms of what they're feeling and how they're responding to the ask. The other, of course, is eye contact. Are you getting any direct eye contact from the potential donor? Are they constantly looking away? You know, it is more challenging on Zoom. You know, the distractions, are they constantly looking, you know, to the left or to the right? Because, you know, they've got four kids that are being homeschooled that are running around, you know, or whatever it is. The dog needs to go use the bathroom, right? So all of these things that we wouldn't necessarily experience in a more traditional kind of face-to-face setting. So that's what they are. They may not even know where their camera is. True. That's a good point. Right. Because we are so trained to look at this penhole. We do this every day. We have so many conversations that I do not think the person is engaging with me because they're looking at me, right? And so again, just as we move through this, I wanted to throw that out as a possibility. No, I'm really glad that you did. Absolutely. I love it. It's true. We battle that every day. So C was cheek and chin. H is the hands. E is eyes. And then the F is really just friendly. How friendly are they being during this, you know, this conversation and making the ask? Are they being receptive? Are they being cold? You know, what are you feeling in terms of their friendliness around the conversation, the ask? Do you want me to jump into the trial clothes? Yeah. So the trial clothes, if you're not really sure how it's going and whether or not you should go ahead and make the ask, then try a trial question. Like, is this what you were looking for? Have I reiterated the benefits to you the way that I've understood them through the course of our conversations? So getting them to, you know, a trial clothes gets them to a place where they're giving you an affirmative answer, you know, and here you can get away with some closed-ended questions because you want to get them to say yes, right? You want to hear yes as many times as possible. So you have to be strategic around it, of course, what you're asking. But it creates an opportunity for you to do that trial clothes, to ask something that's going to get them to make a decision in the affirmative, and then you can move closer to the actual ask. I love it. And again, you're asking for, you're reminding us to be using that word we and making it more of a union of, you know, resources and engagement, which I think is brilliant. Yes. And you know you've really, you've really done a phenomenal job when you start hearing the potential donor say we. Yeah. That's a huge win. One. We don't have much time left. We have a question that's come in. And so I'd love to have your, yeah. And so I get, I get pegged with the big, the big questions, I guess. Beth is asking you, Tony, can you give us a sense of the cycle time to get through all the phases? On average, would it be days, weeks or months? And while you talk about that, I am going to pull up the full cause selling screen because today we embarked upon phase three, step seven. Yeah. And that was a really great question. And I'm going to give like the vaguest answer possible because it really varies, right? We're building relationships. There isn't a cookie cutter answer that I can honestly give to that question. This is where you're going to trust your intuition. You're going to trust the information that you're getting from the donor during the course of the conversation because they're passionate with something that your passions align with. You may connect like this. And in your third meeting, you may feel ready to make the ask with other donors. It may take three months, six months to get them to that point. So as much as I would love to say that this process is so tight that it would only take you three weeks, it really does depend on the individual. That's what this is all about. It's relationship driven one-on-one interaction with potential donors. So it would be unfair to say that every donor could be moved through this process within a finite amount of time. I love it. Well, thank you. Thank you, Beth, for that question. Great question. Yeah. And Tony, I think that's great. I love what you said and that is when it gets down to it, how are you feeling? What is your mindset and how are you gauging the reaction of that potential donor? And if there is a symbiotic relationship and everybody's really wanting to move forward, you can move more quickly, but not always. Right. So yeah. Yeah. And again, a reminder, once we're at this point, phase three, step seven of the ask, this individual is not a stranger. Right. This is not a cold call ask at this point. Julia, I want to ask you how comfortable are you now since we've gone through all of these to step seven, what is your confidence level when it comes to the ask? So you know what? I was kind of teasing Tony that, you know, this makes me nervous and everything, but I got to say I love this. Good. I have always been one of the, you know, the ballbusters that they would say, which is horrible. But I was always like, let me out. Get the appointments, get them moved through. And then I want to be there. I have stood in front of a bathroom door, speaking to a group of people where people were literally coming in and out going to the bathroom. And I was charged with asking for a very significant gift. I one time stood in front of a room, an original Rembrandt, Rembrandt painting in a private home and asked five couples for a million dollars. I've, I've sat across from people and asked for 25 bucks. Perfect. Sometimes I've been successful. Sometimes I haven't. But for me, what I hear when listening to Tony is that, you know, passion for me has ruled the day. But that's not really a sustainable piece. So if you can be more intellectual about what it means to the donor and you, you take away the ego of the eye, you're going to be more successful. So for me, that's what's changed, you know, my perspective. Long story. I'm sorry to give you all that long thinking, but I've been thinking about this. Every time when we meet, I have just been like, you know, for 30 years of asking, where could I have done better? Where could I have been more successful? Well, I don't think you're done. So don't hang up your hat yet. I'm not. And you know, I, I am, it's Tony, and you said this from the get go. I, where was this 20 years ago? And, and I've got some to age on both of you. And I'm like, yeah, where was this for me 30 years ago? Because it would have helped me and amazing. Here's Tony's information Tuesdays with Tony. That's gonna be my new thing. I love it. I am so honored that you would spend this time and share all of your amazing knowledge. Reach out to Tony at fundraisingacademy.org, an amazing, amazing amount of information. Again, I'm Julia Patrick. I've been joined by Jared Ransom, the nonprofit nerd herself, CEO of the Raven Group. And again, we want to thank Fundraising Academy for joining us on this journey. You know, we have not done any series. I have a B in my office. So sorry about that. You have a B in your bonnet. Yeah, I do have a B. I should have a B in my bonnet. Fundraising Academy Cause Selling, this has really been a fabulous partnership for us. And I've learned so much. I know our viewers have as well. And again, we want to thank all of our presenting sponsors without you. We would not be here. And fundraising TV is coming in. We're going to be talking about that more and more. And so we want to thank all of you today and remind you that if you can stay well, then you can do well. Thanks so much. Thank you, Tony. Thank you. It's a pleasure.