 Welcome to Pure Dog Talk. I am your host, Laura Reeves. And I don't know how to tell you guys how excited I am. This is one of my longest term, biggest idols that is coming to join us. For those of you who've been listening for a very long time, Jenny Line was one of the very first human interviews I did on Pure Dog Talk back in Orlando six years ago. So Jenny is coming back to join us and we're going to be talking about English Cocker Spaniels and I'm so excited, I can't stand it. So welcome Jenny. Calm down girl. God, I love you. Oh my gosh. Okay, Jenny, you've been breeding English Cocker Spaniels under the Rensfeld banner for longer than a life. Yes. 1960 was the first. So talk to us first a little bit about English Cocker Spaniels for the companion home, right? English Cocker Spaniels as companions. Talk to us about that. All right, where can I start? First of all, I think you have to be prepared for a companion that's going to follow you everywhere. Likes to go to the bathroom with you. It likes to wander outside with you. If you get up and go somewhere, she has, he or she works in both of them. Doesn't seem to make any difference. They have to be with you. They're not prepared to sit on the couch and say, I know where you're going. I'll be here when you get back, which we have Whippets as well. And that's more their style most of the time. Right. So this is a Velcro dog generally. They love to go in cars. They love to ride with you. They adore going for walks. They're inclined to be, let's see, one of their pitfalls. They're inclined to be very greedy. Most of them will steal with no conscience. Table, counter, if they can reach it. The Whippets help because the Whippets get it off and the Cockers eat it. They're really easy to be with. Michael and the very versatile dog, they adapt. I think they're sort of an unknown, flying under the radar, fabulous companion. Prefer to keep them that way. I mean, we're at the moment, I think they've sort of been discovered because the numbers of people wanting English Cockers in the last five years has escalated exponentially. Interesting. And we don't have, we're losing breeders. We're losing a lot of our senior breeders. They're stopping and I'm one of them, that was pretty well slowed down to nothing. And people are coming back for the third and fourth dog from us and I'm feeling badly, not able to always help them, but they're very, very easy to live with most of the time. Relatively healthy? Relatively healthy. And we have exceptional DNA work that's been done by the parent club to identify issues in the breed. I mean, we are a PRA, PRCD breed, and that there's no excuse for anymore because of DNA. We're not a breed that has a lot of hip dysplasia, but all of us do ROFA hips to verify. We have a couple of conditions that have arisen in the last little while. Adult onset neuropathy, which affects the rear end and can be very, very disturbing. Again, we have testing, so there is no excuse. We have a kidney disease, familial nepropathy, which causes the kidneys to atrophy before the dog is usually in the range of a year and a half. It's not quite often earlier. Again, we have testing. So if you're dealing with a reputable breeder who does the testing, there's easy accessibility to finding out what your odds are. Because they are greedy, you have to feed a fairly low-fat diet. We do have the occasional pancreatitis issues or the immune stuff happening. But again, a lot of it, I think, is nutritionally able to be controlled. We don't like to feed a high-fat diet. Right, right. And grooming maintenance for the pet home, just average. This is a dog where you have to accept hair. It definitely is manageable if you're prepared to do your brushing and combing, keep trimmed if you can't do the trimming or don't want to learn to do the trimming. You can get grooming as long as you can find a groomer that's not going to run the clippers down the back and present. Sometimes once the bitches are spayed, there's not a choice. You have to do this because the coat texture alters so significantly after the hormonal change with the spay. But there's nothing like keeping at least the ears and some feathering and not clippering the back, but doing a fairly generous clipper on neck, head, ears around the tail, keep the plumes off. They're manageable, but it is definitely a shed breed. So you have to be prepared to take care of that. To have hair. Yeah, they love doing, they love going for walks, they love hunting, they will definitely, when you're walking with them, if they're on leash, they will, you have to make sure that you've taught your, come back and come back and retrieve. They will retrieve, they love to carry balls generally, they like to fetch. They're not big water dogs, which is not part of their history, it's not part of their origin. We have some that like to go paddling, our water up here is pretty cold. We sort of sit 45, 44 if we're lucky. And so the dogs generally, they paddle, but they're not sure they want to get in their whole body as well. They're not charging out in the surf is what you're saying. They're not doing a Chesapeake into the river, no. Talk a little bit about the history of the breed, because I find this to be fabulous. Well, this goes back to the days of the setting spaniel that used, I guess, how can we put it? We started out with a large group of different breeds that differentiated from the original spaniels. They were originally were separated into springing spaniels and caulking or field spaniels. And it was a height, weight, and how they hunt that made the difference. And the caulker was developed by hunters because they wanted an animal that could go into England's thorny bush, bush rows, dense hedge rows. If you've traveled in England, you know those hedges that run across the fields. Those are thick, dense, and there are wonderful hiding places for bird woodcock in particular, which is where the name came from. But they also worked larger birds, larger game birds, pheasant, and so on. And occasionally even hares, they do do fur as well. Okay. Yeah, they're very versatile little dogs. And these characteristics are, of course, part of the determiners of what the dog is supposed to look like. Yet's form of the dog follows the function of the dog. Let me go, we go back in North America to Oboe and some imports that came in. And of course, Oboe was responsible for an awful lot of issues. Oboe, what was he? 16 inches long, 10 inches tall. Oh my goodness. So sort of clumber proportion. But nothing whatsoever like a clumber in the head. He had the spaniel head. And he was quite a dominant little stud and slowly and evaluating. We got up to Red Brucie and we got up to some of the other foundation dogs that were a little taller, a little higher on leg. And during the 30s, they started to be recognized in the United States, in the 1930s. And we saw an increase in the separation. Because at that time, the American Cocker was being developed in the United States. And out of that in 1946, the English Cocker Club of Canada, I think it was 1933. I may be a little off on that, but it was in that range, 33, 35. Geraldine Dodge was very instrumental in her work with the breed. If you ever come across a Geraldine Dodge copy of the English Cocker book, it's quite fascinating with early pictures, color plates and breed standard descriptions and so on. Anyhow, in 1946, the AKC recognized the separation of the American Cocker from the English Cocker. Right, I knew it was 46. 46, okay. Okay, excellent. And it's gradually evolved into a slightly taller than long compact sporting spaniel that likes to do anything and everything, whatever you happen to be fond of. Love car trips. They're really happy to go par places and they like children. They're really good with kids. They're just, to me, I just love they're so spanially. Right, just that personality. I just adore that. So let's transition a little bit and talk about the English Cocker spaniel in the show ring. And I also would like to have a brief conversation about the English Cocker spaniel in the field, right? So they're hunting style a little bit, the type of things that hunters might see from them. Which would you like to start with? Let's start with the field work and then we will segue into the show ring. I'm gonna read a quote. Alf Collins was the Cullenwood breeder in England. And this is a little quote that I think reflects. In sport as in ladies hats, fashions have changed with each decade. Though fashions may change, we find that the Mary Little Cocker has always maintained his place in the esteem of the public and sportsmen alike. Identity is extreme adaptability and courage and that his face is also by his hardiness to withstand the rigors of our English climate. He should never have been allowed to become a pampered pet. I love that statement. Yes. Although the vast majority are nowadays just that, again blame his adaptability and lovable nature. But anyone who has seen these game little dogs working in the field must admit this is their rightful heritage and the place where they are truly happy. A Cocker that has once tasted the delights of bustling in and out of the hedgerows and thickets and has the scent of hair, pheasant partridge or the humble rabbit in his nostrils is lost forever to the drawing room. He will on the slightest invitation leave the cream cakes to follow the guns. I love that. Yeah, it's a wonderful quote. It was circa 1950 by Elf and I had a couple of Collinwood dogs over the years in the early part and he was a great breeder. And I think... Sorry. No, I think it is such a great description of what I've observed when I've watched English Cockers in the field. They love it. And you will find that most of them, when you go for a walk out in the bush, wherever you like to walk, which you're where you have a place that you can safely let your dog free, they naturally quarter, they naturally work the field. Their tails go at 100 miles an hour. If only the people that are fighting for tail-darking could understand against tail-darking could understand how they beat those tails. I've seen it. We don't have the thorny terrain up here that does the damage, but in England those hedgerows are pretty dense. It requires that the dog has it demands that the dog has protection on its coat, on its and it has a short tail so it's not gonna beat it up. They hunt until they drop. We had, it was interesting. We had a cocker in South America. My dad was a hunter. And this was sort of an early American cocker party killer. And that little dog would go hunting with him in 80, 90 degree heat. As you would find in Columbia. And he eventually died out on a hunt, literally from the heat. And it was a sad statement, but that, you know. They will go till they drop. They will go till they drop. There is no halfway point for them. Right. They hunt up here. We find them working on pheasant to some extent. We find that if there are quail hunters still left in the world, they love quail. That's a wonderful size bird for them. Right. Other than that, what else can I tell you? I, one of the things that I notice with a breed like the cocker that is old, the clumber spaniels, right? The dogs, even the dogs where people have not really bred selectively for hunting ability, for making their instinct. Correct. So talk a little bit about that. I don't know. I can't explain why, but you know, we don't, obviously the percentage of dogs that are from the showlines that go into hunting are few. There is a section of the breeding programs in English cockers that we call the field dogs. They're the working ones, not the field spaniel, but the version of the English cocker. And they're different. They're very different. They're much less bone. They're much more refined. They have the body. They have the rib spring and they have the heart. They want beyond belief to do it. I think I would find them exhausting to live with because they're always on. There's no off button that you can push. And they do look different. They're not the same. They are English cockers, but they do look different. So there is a separation. There is a separation. And because I move in show circles, I don't see a lot of these, but we have a young woman up the island here up Vancouver Island who has imported a couple. And she has one that is working now, both in the States and in Canada, and she's training. And this dog is fantastic. It's just absolutely amazing. So I have a lot of respect for the people that are doing with the breed. What is the original function and purpose of the breed? Do I think they look as pretty? No. But it, you know- But I think what you just observed that the show dogs, even the ones who have not been specifically- They still do. They will still go out and there. And this is, I think, one of the reasons the English Cocker is amazing with its nose. They have absolutely eaten up scent discrimination, scent work, nose work, tracking. There is- Barn huns, right. Barn none. There is not a better breed, barn none, to do tracking than the English Cocker. They are phenomenal. They like agility, but sometimes that gets a little boring. Their training is interesting because English Cockers don't like to repeat things too much. They like variety in their lives. And they are not dogs that become robotic. They don't become robots doing whatever it is that they're doing. They look at you and they say, eh, you did this just a second ago. Why do I do it again? I did it right the first time. Why am I doing it again? And they'll sit- Drills are not. Yeah. Let's move on to something new. But we have a gal on the island who has one of my dogs and she's got a couple of others. One of them is sired by one of my dogs. And she is an amazing collector of titles. She has the longest string of alphabet after that dog's name that I have ever seen in my life. And so they do trick work. They do scenting. They do agility. They do barn work. We even got some that are now performing in barn work. I mean, they're not, foreign activities to a hunting breed, but they're still using the nose. And it's the nose that is the factor in my opinion. Fabulous. And talk, this is a great point to segue. You were talking about the coat as protection in the field. So now let's segue into the proper coat that is part of the package for the show dog. The English Cocker coat is meant to be protective. It's meant to serve, it is an undercoat. There is an undercoat and an overcoat. And the most important part in my opinion is that jacket that is meant to serve as a protective part of the dog's body jacket. It's also meant to have a loose skin. So that your skin, I'm just looking for my reference here that I wanted to have handy. And of course I don't have it handy. I can do it out of my head. The skin should be flexible so that it gives, when the dog gets hung up on a bramble thorn thicket. It's not gonna rip it's skin when it has to get out. It's going to have a jacket that is usually not stripped out or stoned out for grooming. It would be ideal if people would stop doing that. It is not meant to be heavily trimmed. The coat is short on the head and the ears. It's short and fine head particularly. Then the ears are trimmed. We normally trim about close between a quarter and a third down the ear. And the inside of the ears. We keep cleaned out. And there's a functional purpose to that. There's a functional purpose for that. And also there's a health purpose. Because that allows the air to circulate in the ear. Stops the yeasty build up a hot wet place. And cleanliness is improved. Spaniel ears being notably so. They are. That's one of the areas and I didn't mention it because I didn't think of it at the time. We keep such careful control over ours that very, very seldom do I hear or have any ear issue. But if you do not keep that air circulating. By keeping the hair cleaned out and the ear. Open. You can get yeast infections, which are difficult and then they become chronic. And yes, The coat is silky, which is also a factor in helping for it to shed. If a dog has. A Courtney. Coat it will hang out as soon as it gets into something thick and it will hang up. It won't get out easily. Which is again, a reason why I would rip itself. The coat should not be so thick. That you lose the shape of the dog. And. So pervious that it will interfere with the. Fieldwork. You find that the dogs that. Our field bread. Our next to no coat, but the coat they have. Is a good jacket. It. It always has a shine on it. Which is always an indication of. A silky correct. Texture. It feels strong. It shouldn't feel when you're actually running your hands in reverse up the coat. It shouldn't feel as though you're getting spiked. My cut hair. You're getting a. Smooth soft. Response to your hand. When you use the reverse. One. Encourage the dogs to be cleaned up for showing obviously, but I think we've. Perhaps become. So good at sculpting. That we've obscured and. I think sometimes. The trimming. Creates a fuller dog. A dog that if you're not really sure. Can fool you into thinking it's better than it really is confirmationally. And so the coat is, is something that gets manipulated a certain amount. We want the coat to look as natural as possible. The wording on the standard is as natural as possible. Okay. Okay. Very good. So. With the rest of the dog. You go from your favorite part. You start where you want to start. Let's do the whole. English Cocker spaniel. As. Seen from a judge's perspective. I'm going to start before I even go to the dog with five words. These are five. Key concept words. If you're going to judge. This breed. One. Mary. That tail. Has got. To work. This is a Mary. Happy. It doesn't stand very still. It loves to. Visit with all the other dogs in the ring. It's happy. It wants to jump on your. Jump up on you and have be padded in between the. Examination and. The next round the ring. It's balanced. Nothing ever looks out of proportion. It's never going to. Where you, I always feel if you get a. Cocker when you look at it and you say. Oh wow. Look at all that angulation. Some draw. Shouldn't be visible. Shouldn't jump out at you. What should jump out of you is a dog that is in proportion. And balanced. It should be compact. This is not a low on ground dog. It's short back. Standing well up at the withers. Maybe I should drop the dog. Standing up at the withers. As well might make somebody think that it's tall. It's not. It stands up at the withers, but it is a short back dog. Any appearance of being less than. Square. Comes. Because it's got a prominent. Front. The pro sternum. Which pushes through the bramble. Is there. And we're going to talk about rear ends eventually. They're thick. They're muscled. They're strong. And they're wide. It has. Hams. English. Cocker butts. I just love. English. Cocker butts. I just love them. The Irish. Washer. Washer. Washer. Washer. Washer. Washer. Washer. Washer. Washer. I like her. Who loves them. The Irish washer women. Bus. Maybe that's my excuse. Sorry, Irish. Goes back a while. Mary balanced. Compact. Moderate. Which is part of balanced. But it's still. It's just everything in moderation. Nothing and exaggeration. And the last word is rounded. rounded. Everything is rounded. There should be no severe or sharp angles. Let me think, doberman pinchers. Everything is very angular. The English Cocker has slightly rounding on the head, has a rounded lip, has rounded feet, has good rounded muscle strength to the neck, rounded in the rib cage, but deeper, the long rib cage. It's got rounded thighs. Nothing ever should look square, angular, or sharp, because it's soft. Those are my five key words. Then, what do I look for? Well, first of all, I'm looking at the overall general appearance of history. It should give me a sense that I've got a moderate size standing up at the withers, short and back, and well down in hawk. That's a picture of a dairy balanced dog. I then take it around, and I'm looking for a dog that I can see is maintaining his shape on the move that he had when he was stacked by his handler, assuming the handler stacks correctly, but I expect to see this on the move going around. When I get to the table, the examination, I look again at this general appearance of balance and proportion, and is there evidence of a fore chest? Is there evidence of a good thick butt? Then I turn to the front and look at the head. This is probably, I think, one of the most beautiful headed breeds that you can find when it's correct. It should look at you with the softest, kindest expression. It is never meant to look hard, and that is a combination of the width over the bridge of the muzzle, the rounding of the lip, the slight oval of the eye, which is fairly full. The flatness on the sides is no big bulging zygomatic arches. The softness, the definite presence of a stop, but nothing nearly as much as you would see in the American polker. The set on of the ear, eye level at least, most of our dogs are really good on ear set. We very, very seldom have to say. It should be a fairly thin ear. It's not a thick, heavy, wide at the base or wide at the top part of the ear. And then when you look up, you will see the rounding that happens over the sides of the head and a very slight flattening on top. It is not the dome that you expect to see with the American polker. It's much flatter, but it's not flat like the English setter. Really, really not to get this. And the other part that's important is people ask about parallel planes. And this breed has a very unique way of identifying planes. We do not expect absolutely dead level muzzle and top of the skull to be parallel, because that will foster the look of an English setter rather than the polker. We do, however, call for the sides of the muzzle. Put your fingers up the sides, each side of the muzzle. Your back skull on either side looking front on the dog will be parallel. So the two sides of your muzzle with your fingers, if you slide your fingers forward or backward toward the occipital area, you will find that that's your parallel area. Muzzle length to skull length. Muzzle length to skull length is equal. Muzzle length to skull length is equal. So your nose to stop, stop to occipit is equal. Okay. And talk a little bit about, I know, and I've heard this said before, both by you and by other people in the breed that kind of the drift to English setter is where you go rather than drift to other spaniels. But I think it's really important for people to distinguish not just English Cocker, American Cocker, but English Cocker Field Spaniel and English Cocker Springer Spaniel, English Cocker Welsh Sprink, right? So the the Spaniel family, I think those distinctions are important too. Very important. And it's actually one of the things when I've done mentoring with people and I've said, when you have studied the English Cocker, go study the field, the Springer, the Cocker, the Welsh, absolutely study these breeds and identify the clumber and the Sussex don't really come into it because they're just different. But go study those breeds and look at their heads in detail. Look at their proportion because you can't understand any of them unless you understand the differences. And for me, that piece of what makes it an English Cocker, not one of the other comparable Spaniels, is so much in the head details. The hand on the English Cocker is unique. It is absolutely, well, so is the Welsh. The Welsh is unique. I mean, these are things, they're all different. But this is probably the softest, the gentlest when you look at an English Cocker with a really good head. They are going to melt you. They have that, that they look at you with adoration. They absolutely say you are without doubt the most adorable, wonderful person in the whole wide world. That sounds like a whip at bark, not an English Cocker bark. Actually, it was an English Cocker bark. It's an old somewhat senile old man who thinks every now and then he would like somebody to come and be part of the party with him. He's getting a little bit a little bit on the hard thinking side. The skull is very softly contoured. It has a very melting expression, but it's intelligent. It's not a dumb expression. It's intelligent. And the eyes really contribute to this. They should be medium. They should be full. They should be slightly oval. They should be fairly dark, with the exception of the livers and those colours, the dilute colours. Hazel is permitted, but we like them to be as dark as possible, even within the Hazel range. Nothing yellow is staring at you. The eyelids are tight. Functional requirement for a dog is hunts the way it hunts. It must be a tight, tight lid. And there's a slight lift to the upper, the top eyelid, that opens the eye and gives a little bit of a... I think the expression that's used in the description is alert. It just makes it look as though I'm paying attention. I'm listening to you. I'm with you. I'm not asleep. I'm not the hound dog asleep. So that's an important functional feature. Muzzle, one of the things that we're seeing is, I think, is a problem, is the narrower mussels than we should be getting. We're seeing dogs with narrow under jaws, and with it comes those issues with the lower canines in the wrong place, actually, into the pallets. Generally speaking, most of these self-correct by the time they do second teeth, but you will see them in the baby puppies. I want width over my muzzle, over the top, from the bridge of the nose into the stop. I want to see that with a good width to it, not narrow. That helps. And it shouldn't... I want the eyes fairly wide apart. I don't want them close together. Nothing pinched, which, of course, again, goes with the narrowness of the head. It's not an Irish setter head. Or an English setter head. Or an English setter head, which goes to the other two flat six dreams. So that, you know, we want a scissor bite. There are some bite issues in English coppers we do see. More than I would like us to see, I think, in breeding this breed. We overshot and undershot severely penalized. Those are definitely serious issues. Level bite. We don't like it. We accept it. And you're probably going to be all right competing with a level bite, but it's not something that... The other part of looking at the head is look at it always from the side, as well as from the front. Get your parallel planes on the side. Check the zygomatic arches are not, you know, too large or too heavy. But then turn it sideways and take a look. Because you want the planes at the back skull approaching parallel enough that allows the eyes to be looking straight ahead. Sometimes when you get a really wide back skull, a dog that flares into the width of a German shorthair or something behind, those eyes are going to be looking not straight ahead. They're going to be looking straight forward. And equally, I don't want them looking out to the side. I want the eyes placed well into the skull. So I call them flounder eyes when they look like a flounder fish. They're looking out to the side. I don't want flounders. No flounders. No flounders, please. We want the eyes to look over the muzzle, directly over the muzzle. Right. Got it. So that gives you a pretty good head. You should be happy when you get one of those. Yes. I think I sent you a picture of a head, didn't I? Yes, you sent me a couple beautiful pictures. Okay. Beautiful pictures. Then from the head, we move down to the neck. No stovepipes, please. The neck is not meant in this breed to be elongated out of proportion. It's moderate in length and fits smoothly and flows into the well-set on shoulder. You can't get one without the other. Right. It's muscular. There is good strong muscling over the back of the neck so that those muscles are really, when you put your hand on the back, you pick them up. That's a really strong muscle. We like a fairly clean neck, not a throaty. We don't want heavy skin because it's houndy. It should be clean enough. There is a slight slope to the top line. It goes from the back of the neck. The proverbial drop of water at the back of the neck flows slowly. It doesn't rush it right next speed. It flows slowly down the back. It doesn't get hung up or a roached croup or a high race over the loin. It flows off the end of the tail. There's that flowing picture that comes up. We're looking at this stage of the examination for a dog that is well sprung in rib, has depth of rib to the elbow at least, but not exaggeratedly more because then you start getting in again to a dog that will appear short legged. Short legged in this breed is a serious issue. There are quite a few of them that are around. You want to have a fill when you put your hands in the front between the front legs. You want to have a fill in your hand. Your hand should cup a definite prosternum. I like personally to be sure that I check at the elbow, the angle that is created with the shoulder blade into the upper arm, into the foot, that that angle at the elbow is set back under the dog so that the weight of the dog is supported. It's not worn out under the chin. The toes should not be in front of the ears. Absolutely never. I want a rib cage and this is one of the problems and so many of our sporting dogs these days is that the proportion looks good. You think, oh, this is okay. This is balanced, but when you get into feeling the dog, the rib cage ends way too far forward on the dog. You have a longer length of loin than you should have and two shorter rib cage. We want a long rib and a short muscular almost squared loin. By square I mean on top to the side. Then you want a slight imperceptible rise over the loin. You shouldn't see it. It should be muscled up, but it should be there into a slightly lowered croop. Not extreme, but definitely the English stalker should have a slightly lowered croop into a tail that goes straight off the end of the back. Talk a little bit about the ribbing. I know this is on ribbing. I know this is where I've heard, again, it was either you or somebody else in the breed talking about the round ribbing versus the flat ribbing that, again, makes the difference between cocker and setter. Not flat ribbing like a setter. Right. When you find flat ribbing, you have a settery English cocker. Correct. Okay. Amongst other things, which I'll get to in a minute, but you have a, you want, again, it's rounded, you know, my early word, round. And that rib cage has got to be rounded. It's not, if it's long enough, it will taper so that there's no obstruction in movement on those front legs. There's room for the elbows to work. But the actual rib cage, when you're judging it, you look down on that rib you must look, one of the required examination techniques that's important in the English cocker is to look down on top of the dog, both on the table and on the ground to make sure that there's really very little waste in a good English cocker. They don't have a, you know, a very slim, svelte waist. It shouldn't be a svelte dog. I mean, in my mind, it's not svelte. There's nothing svelte. No, it's a sturdy functional little small spaniel. Right. Okay. And then you get down to the other end of the dog that does all the work for getting it over. If you're looking down on the dog, the hind quarters, which are broad, round, muscular, are almost as wide as the rib cage. One of our esteemed breeders in Canada, who I have a lot of respect for, he basically says, if I'm standing behind the dog at the lower end of the dog and look up, not over, but up the dog, I shouldn't see the rib cage because of the width of the hind quarters. Now the standard doesn't quite suggest that, but it should be that wide that there's really very little evidence of the ribs bulging compared to, because we do not want a barrel rib. Right. Right. But the rib and the hind quarters should almost mask it for width. The hams, there should be strong, big muscles in the rear end and a well let down short hawk. We do not want, here's your next celery characteristic, the elongated angle that you see in the setters, which is correct for them, is not correct for the English copper. We want moderate balance to the front angulation in the rear with the hawk to ground length as short as possible. And that allows for the strongest amount of push and drive so that when the dog has to push itself through the bramble, it uses its fore chest, its pro sternum as a prow to spread and open up and the rear end to provide the drive. It's going to push it through. And that broad muscular rear is an essential, in my opinion, breed. Again, we see a lot that are lacking second by. If you can find one that isn't so much the better. Talk a little bit about size. Breed size. Your breed is males. We're looking at 16, 17 inches. I'm thinking, I'm pretty sure I remember it's 16, but that's, I was just very 16 is what the standard prefers, but it doesn't say so. Okay. Bitches 15 to 16. For the practical realities, there are not a lot of 17 inches. It is legal totally. Not a lot of dogs in the 17 inch range being shown. We do find, and if they do, they tend to be perhaps a little more on the setter side. Most males, 16 and a half inches. Most females, 15 and a half, 15 and three quarters. There are some smaller females that are, as long as they're balanced, are perfectly acceptable. My feeling is that as long as they're in proportion, I will certainly accept that rather than something that's in the size range, but the lacks balance and proportion and moderation and so on. Most males run about 32 pounds. They can go to 34. I find a dog that's on the 34 range is starting to get pretty heavy, but bone is a very important characteristic. And I think generally the dogs in North America need to improve bone. Okay. If I was in England, I would expect to find much more bone than we are able at this moment to see in the majority of our dogs. We have very, very beautiful dogs. They are, they show well. They look good. They're beautiful. We have done more with colors than they have in the UK. But I think where we're lacking is in the fore chest and the bone and substance. And if you've got that, it means you've got the rib spring, you have the bone down and you have the hind quarter. The other part that is important that I overlooked earlier is feet. Right. This is so important. Those feet should be tight, thick, deep cat feet that are really part of that front leg. It's just, they're standing on columns to support. Yeah, yeah. Function being feet are the foundation of everything. Absolutely. You need to also want to think that we need to do is it's adopt tailed breed. And the standard is very specific. It says adopt. Set on to conform to the group, ideally carried horizontally and in constant motion. If the dog is moving. However, the English Cockroach Club of America has made a decision not to change the standard to accommodate specifically the dog with a tail. However, they have given judges the option. They can excuse if they wish and legitimately. I'm not sure personally how you can excuse for one item. Right. If you are going to excuse for one item, then you don't excuse for being correct. This or, you know, it doesn't make sense to me personally. I can't imagine excusing a dog with a tail. No, there are. There definitely have been judges who have done it. Interesting. Okay. They're now on a list with the English Cockroach people. I don't want to be on the list. But the other part of their advice, which is very legitimate, is that you treat it as a fault. Right. It doesn't conform. So it's a fault. It's a fault just out of the other. Right. If you have an absolutely stunning beautifully constructed dog with bones, he's up on leg and he's short. But he's short back. He's got a deep rib. He's got pro four stress. He came from Europe. And he's got a tail. Right. Then don't put a setter over him. Right. That has none of the correct breed characteristics just happens to be docked. Right. So that, that's a really, you know, in Canada, we made the decision to, in fact, we were directed pretty much that we had to because our veterinarians are a little more aggressively organized than yours are and have made, they have stopped doing tails and refusing to do tails in parts of the country. On the other side, they've made it Eastern side of Canada. They've made it time. Yeah. Right. A serious issue with yeah, with docking wirehead pointer people that fight this battle in Quebec. So it's difficult. It really is. I don't get it. I don't understand it. When you do your tails at 24 hours as I do, boom, it's done. I think the only thing we haven't covered specifically is movement. All right. This should never, ever, ever, ever be one of those breeds that races around the ring at 90 miles an hour at. Trad is not part of tremendous reach and drive is not part of the English cock. It's moderately angulated. It should not have a lot of lift, which is wasteful motion and tiring. We want a dog that's going to be able to hunt for a long period of time. We want a dog that has the muscle to push hard. You should see the pads when they go away from you, but it shouldn't be kicking up in the air. I hate to use the breed here, but perhaps I see it most often in Akitas, but they kick up behind. English caucus should not be doing this. Nothing to reach at least to the end of their nose. You know, you can see, but I am more concerned with that they hold a firm hard top line when they're moving, that their body isn't bouncing, that they're preferably not rolling, which always to me signals something's out of balance. I want this to look as though this little dog could trot indefinitely without tiring. Can you address going away? I have, over the course of time, seen dogs that go away a bit wide and takes them a while to converge. Can you address that? Really, this is because of the width that they have. This is not ever agreed that's going to do true convergence. Convergence. Okay, that's what I wanted to ask about specifically. Yeah, no. We never would expect because of their size and their width and the proportions that we've asked. This is not a breed that we would expect to see converging. Okay. It is a breed that we would expect to see columns, straight columns of support in front, coming at you in a way that is straight reach and gives you a sense of power. The most important thing is drive, that they're driving off that rear. It should look powerful. The motion is very deliberate. It's very efficient. The feet are on the ground. And it shouldn't crab. It shouldn't roll. And the width between both front and rears should be appropriate to the way he's constructed. So when you think about a dog that has the prosternum and the width that he's got, you don't expect him to be converging. To see the pads going away, but they should not be going criss-crossy. They should be pushing. You should see them drive. They will, obviously to bring them in underneath the dog, they're going to come in a little bit, but they still should be correct. Laura, you know what a correct movement is, but you don't want to see it in any way cow hawking. We used to have a lot of problems with cow hawks and English caulkers. Many of them came down through some imports that came in from the UK. But we don't see that now. I think that the breeders, if you want to see the best English caulkers in North America, the U.S. national. I'm trying to get to the U.S. national. I believe that it is the same, judges education is the same exact day I'm judging the Norwegian Elkhound national sweepstakes. But I'm going to try and fly home and get to the last day of judging. So I know it's there. I'm planning to be there. I'm trying to figure out, because of course it's the garden, the Norwegian Elkhound national, and then I fly there. Of course. And it's in Washington. I mean, really people? But yes, I intend to get to at least one day of judging at the national. Because English caulkers, a lot of our breeders tend to do specialties. They're not big on the old breed shows. I think it's partly that, to some extent, that they have found that they don't get the same kind of judging that they do at the national, where true breed type seems to be more appreciated. We haven't said anything about coat colors. No, we did not do coat colors. That's a great topic. We talked coat consistency, but colors and marking. So the open marked dogs versus the round dogs. English caulkers come in solid colors, and that includes black, liver, black, and tan. Any of those can have 10 points and 10 markings, like the Doberman ones. Those are your solids. Then the umbrella for the party color takes in a much broader range of colors, because party colors can be open marked, which are patched, like many of our Julie Gasel sprinters. Ticked, which is an intermediate from the open marked to the next one, which is the roam, where the color is all intermingled. So those are three, and you get those in all of the colors of black, red, orange. Then to add on top of that, and liver, of course, I didn't say that one, then on top of that, you can add all the tan markings, exactly as you do in solids. So it's a huge, I think the English caulker has more color variations than any other breed. It's certainly in a sporting group. It's a lot of variety. Do they go? Now, I've never seen it, and I can't pull up this part of the standard in my brain right now. Do they go down to lemon? Like the orange to the lemon, do they or do they say anything about that? It's not mentioned in the, oh, I've lost you, where did you go? I'm here. I know, but I don't see you. Oh shoot, somehow or another, I've totally lost you. I'm now back to zoom. Oh no, you're still talking to me. All right, well, I'll talk without seeing you, I guess. I don't know how to, it's got me talking with no picture. That's bizarre. Huh. Is your picture is fine and your audio is fine? Yeah, I don't know. Anyway, okay, as long as the audio is fine, that's fine. The breed standard is interesting. In England, well, the UK, the British standard, and ours, it says color various, and people to be very protective to maintain that, but then it has gone on because the AKC requires that if you are saying various, you must define what is acceptable. Right. So there are certain things that are acceptable, and there's a couple of things that are not. We like to see the solid markings in party colors broken on the body, but that doesn't mean that if you have a blue ron, it can't be all blue ron body. Okay. Because some, we have what we, as breeders describe as a dark blue ron, a light blue ron, a silver ron, you know, you get all sorts of levels of ronning, then a dog can be blackheaded or even ronheaded and not have body patches. Do I want that? No, but it's acceptable. Okay. White feet on a solid are not desirable. Okay. We will accept a little white on the throat, and as more and more of our breeders nowadays are doing cross-colored, I'm going to call it that, cross-color breedings. The term that gets used is hybrid, and I don't like that because it's not a true hybrid breeding, but they will breed party color to solid or solid for, and for good reason in most cases. And then, then you start getting a few solids that will show white on the throat to some degree, a little white on the throat, but a big white bib to me is not acceptable because these dogs are not party colors. We prefer our tan markings to be rich color. Some of them again at this point are getting a little bit washed out. They should be of a rich shade if possible, but now I'm getting down to real nitty-gritty stuff. It's not something I would lose my shirt over. Of course, the black and tans and the liver and tans are solids, not party colors. Split faces are acceptable. Do I like them? No, because they're not so pretty to look at in my eyes, but they're certainly acceptable. What else? On the split faces. It's not me about lemon. Yeah, I asked about lemon. And remind me, on the split faces, do they have to have eye color on the side that's white? Okay. All right. That was my, I couldn't remember. Not in the standard. Okay. The lemon really is only a washed out orange. Okay. All right. It isn't, you know, right. And the things that are not acceptable are color patterns that you see in other breeds outside the sporting group, such as Brindle or Sable. Now there's a lot of controversy over the Sable because there are American caulkers that are appearing that are Sable, not now so much now that they've done the standard revision. But there's, they are recognized in Europe. So you do have breeders of Sables in Europe and in the UK. And do I like them? No, I don't like their look or expression. I, but they are not described. The Brindle pattern and the Sable pattern is not described in the list of acceptable colors and markings. Okay. So judges have to make up their minds how they're going to handle it. But I, because it's not described in the standard, I think you have to not do it.