 So we have how we need to think differently about the employment challenge from the World Development Report to the work that Gary has done on informality, and informality to a country-specific case of labor reforms in South Africa. This is a rich menu. I'm sure it has stimulated a lot of thinking in here. So can we now open up the floor for discussion, preferably briefly each, so as to share the professor cover. Yes, please. Excuse me. Thank you very much. If you can remember to introduce yourselves. I certainly will. Thank you. My name is Francy Land, and I'm from the University of Quasulia Natel in Development Studies. And I'm also from an organization called WEGO, Women in Informal Employment, Globalizing and Organizing. I'd really like to draw a link. This is not so much a question as just a comment. A strong link between what Ravi was talking about at the book launch about the idea of the bias towards a Westphalian conception of the state in the sense that we keep on looking at national sovereign governments as the main unit of analysis when looking at development. And link that to Gary's very strong story of Marsebici and Durban and the folly, the illogic of a municipal regulation that goes against a kind of job creation. So you have at national level, and I'm not talking about the South African situation I'm talking about in general, when we say, let's look at policy reform, we usually are meaning at the national level. But in fact, on the ground, different countries through their constitution or through history, through both, allocate different competencies to local government. And in South Africa, as it happens, our local governments have a tremendous amount of power over the actual possibility of implementing what can be quite progressive national policies into policies on the ground that enable people to work. And in our endurman, my home city, it's the control, it's the city's control over the public spaces in which the majority of informal workers work. That is absolutely critical to whether job creation, enterprise creation can succeed or not. So on the one hand, you have the last week, for heaven's sake, a new ministry of micro-interprises being appointed. It will make no difference whatsoever. And on how the president's office, we have yet another statement saying that there'll be a million jobs created by the end of next year. This will not happen. In the same week as the Durban municipality expels a couple of hundred bead sellers from their place in the market where they are paying licenses, they want a negotiation over the terms for which they will continue making their payments and the negotiations break down. So just to conclude also with referring back to Martin your thing about voice and the operation of voice, that for informal workers, another space for representation of informal workers needs to be enduring and sustainable platforms for negotiation at the local level, as well as those informal workers participating just the other day now in the International Labour Organization's discussions on formalizing the informal economy and as well as participating in national mechanisms for organization and representation of workers of various sorts. Thank you. Roger Williamson, Institute of Development Studies. I'd like to ask Haroon a question, please. First of all, I thought there were three excellent papers. I thought it was really, really great. Haroon, could you comment on the analysis by Maleti and Becky that basically the Africana elite was better at protecting key industries and creating jobs for their people than the reforms since the end of apartheid have been in creating jobs for black people, that black economic empowerment, which at one level should have created the kind of job you're talking about, really hasn't had traction and hasn't succeeded in that regard. Thank you very much. Thank you. Yes, Rose here. Thanks very much. I think I've enjoyed the presentation. So I have a question. Can you introduce yourself? I'm Rose Googie. I'm from the IMF. I have a question for Gary. If I missed what you told the policeman, but I would have, I'm very curious, what you told the policeman and what you would have told the Labour Minister if you met with the Labour Minister later on. I'm raising this because what you find is that for some people who work in the informal sector, be it hookers or the kind of people you are talking about in the beach, the law side will always argue for insecurity that is brought up by this kind of informality. We also see sometimes the law makers running after, for example, Massimbi. I think it was very good that she was given a 24 hours notice. There are situations where they will come in and they will pull down all their kiosks. I'm just wondering whether this is a, of course, Rama talked about the voice issue, but I'm just wondering what is it that we miss out? We are talking about insecurity, we want the informal sector, and what is it that who is missing what in that relationship? The second question I have is to Rama. You brought out very clearly that jobs are transformational and then you've shown that various economies have differences in terms of the type of jobs. And then later on, as you are concluding, you brought in some characteristics that jobs would take for the transformational element. But I just wanted you to link for us. How do you link the type of jobs that you indicated vis-à-vis the characteristics in optimizing job creation? Thank you. Thank you. Naila Kabir from the London School of Economics. I have three quick questions for each of the panelists. Martin, I wanted to ask you, the point you made about mice and gazelles and that in developing countries very few mice become gazelles. And I wondered what implication you were drawing from that in terms of promoting jobs in those countries. Haroun, I wondered why the wage subsidy come employment was only for young African female workers. I was curious as to why you focused on females. And Gary, your description of you either sell your labor services to an employer or to yourself. I found that I couldn't get my head around that because I thought, okay, I see I sell labor service to employer. If I am a subsistence farmer, I sell services to myself. But if I'm a self-employed hairdresser, am I selling those services to myself? I'm not selling them to myself, nor to an employer. So I wondered if your categorization had somehow missed out on a particular way of thinking about self-employment. Gary, I have two last ones. Yes, go ahead there and. Thank you. My name is Anthony from the University of Southern Denmark. Two questions to Professor Haroun. One is on the, you actually presented very interesting finding in South Africa that reforms tend to have negative effects on agriculture. I'm curious to know what are the mechanisms because at the end of the presentation, you also argue that a trade union does it do appear not to matter? And at the same time, it appears to have a connection with the judicial system. So I'm actually interested to know what are the mechanisms through which the legal reforms could actually have a negative impact on agriculture? And my second question is, I have something to do with the wage skill premium in South Africa. I'm interested also, I'm curious to know what is the composition? You argue that the employment is quite capital intensive in the sense that my mining sector tend to absorb a lot of technical skills. So I'm interested to know how much of job creation and job destruction has been done in South Africa in terms of all these technical innovation that come and go back and forth. And in the same line of reasoning, then what is the edge composition? Does it affect youth mostly or middle aged or what happens then to like old people and so on and so forth? Thank you. Okay, can we conclude this round and then we have a response from... All right, my name is Joseph Tufua from University of Professional Studies, Ghana. After that I've been thinking about the type of research that we do at the university and the way they are integrated into policy research. It's been a concern to me. For example, through all these presentations, we've seen the academic way of presenting and doing the research. My concern is how are these results being integrated into actual policy? We see the universities that research institutes doing their own research, coming out with results that are good, but the politicians are also on another side of it, sometimes without any link to what the researchers or research institutes are doing. How are all these integrated into policy, such that as we do the research, we undertake the studies, we find all sorts of results that are interesting, which would influence policymaking, but the policymaker seems to be sometimes different. For example, the parliament or the Ministry of Finance or the central bank seem to be doing their own things apart from what the research institutes are also doing. So that is my issue. How are we integrating all this from the perspective of developing countries? Thank you. That's a challenge to all of us. Now, let's have a response from Yulita with Martin. Thank you, Sam. There were two questions addressed to me, two big questions, but I will try to stick to like a minute or two on each. By Rose, how to link the job challenge to the implications we derive in terms of policies. Let me say that we are working on a volume with all the different cases because the way we went about it was to ask for a second opinion. We asked teams in developing countries, we chose for each of our challenges a country that was a good representation of the challenge and we asked local teams, not World Bank teams, to try to use this framework and make that connection. So what is your biggest job challenge and therefore what is the policy most appropriate? And our cases were like Bangladesh for an urbanizing economy, Mozambique for an agrarian economy, Tunisia for a country with high youth unemployment and so on and so forth. So we picked up eight countries which were like a caricature of an illustration of a job's challenge and that will come up in a separate volume with the analytical framework. So the more technical part. So these are things that were behind the World Development Report and now we want to put in the public domain that should be ready soon. But the idea is that through your diagnosis that combines triangulation of these sources, household data, enterprise data values, you get with an idea that you have one big problem and general countries are quite clear and you define what their big problem is. It can be a combination of two. If I take a place like Mozambique, you have a lot of people in agriculture and how to make agriculture more productive is certainly a big challenge because that's where poverty reduction will happen to a large extent. But you need also the traction of Maputo, Corridor, whatever, the dynamic of jobs. And then we go to the policies that could get more of that transformation in this case. And that's where we looked at the successful countries how they had done it. And for instance, in the case of agriculture, what comes as a realization is that if you think from a job's perspective into agriculture, it is not necessarily the development of commercial agriculture that will do the trick. It's smallholder farming. And the transformation of smallholder farming before you can really go to commercial agriculture is quite a lot that you can do. And that's where a lot of the focus is. In a case at Bangladesh, we thought that the way the country's urbanizing is extremely important for the dynamic of jobs. When you take a country like Ukraine, which we took as an age in society, the big challenge is you have an age in population and social security systems, which are such that for the same population, you have fewer and fewer people producing. So you have a decline in living standards if nothing else is done. And therefore you think that the policies are how to extend the working age. And so in each case, we came up with a set of policies that were quite removed from the labor market. Or as Gary was saying that influenced the labor market but are outside it. As I said, for instance, in the case of Chile is how you get the flow of resources from copper. A country that is a third of the reserve of copper in the world, not to become money that goes into creating public sector jobs, but that preserves the incentive for the private sector to work and so on and so forth. And then the response may be fiscal policy. So what was interesting is that in each case, we found that the decisive policy was not our traditional go and change the labor regulation. It was something else. It was agricultural policy, urbanization policy, fiscal policy, social security reform, and so on and so forth. That's, I think, the key message. On mice and gazelles, the question by Naila, I think to me at this point, that's one of the fundamental questions we should be asking ourselves in development. We understand very little about the dynamic of economic units, how they go from being a person with an idea to being a person who employs someone else to being a company. And that's where a lot of the action happens. I think we have hypotheses, but they are partial. For instance, there was a time when the dominant view was the kind of Fernando de Soto view. Everybody's an entrepreneur. There's this stupid government with these stupid regulations that are getting on the way. Let's remove all that and we will thrive. We looked at that. We looked at studies as to who is an entrepreneur. What are the characteristics of individuals who are entrepreneur across many countries? And we found that it's more like a big banergy as the flow will say. Most of the people who are in these units are there for survivorship, not for entrepreneurship. There is something like three to 5% of them who have apparently the characteristics of entrepreneurs. So the first answer is not all mice will become gazelles. That's for sure. The question is how we get more of them. And just removing regulations for the 95 or 97% who are survivors may not do the action will be also. There is a second set of thoughts that is related to the type of support to provide. And there all of these randomized control trial literatories providing some interesting insights. People like David Mackenzie in the bank, Nick Bloom of the bank are doing all sort of interventions of giving these small units credit, formalizing them, paying a worker, giving them capital and seeing does it make a difference. Very few things make a difference. They are more optimistic about some forms of basic business training as something that could make a difference. But this kind of support, I said to me what Haroun said, public procurement policies that create space for anything from recycling, garbage recycling and others for people who are at the border of survivorship to become integrated in a formal structure. This is another potential. My suspicion, and that's the area in which we are trying to work a lot in South Asia now, is that what creates the dynamism of firms has a lot to do with how cities are organized. And again, the stories by Haroun and others about South Africa, you can think that is a place that one can read as a place with very high unemployment or a place with very low level of micro-enterprises because of the legacy of apartheid that created completely separated cities where people live in one place and jobs are in another place, and especially the jobs where the rich part of the city are very difficult to access, even transportation is expensive. When I think about the experience of China and Vietnam, I think Vietnam is a very interesting case in terms of having lots of gazelles. In Vietnam, when you look at the structure of employment, it went from farming to self-employment and then to wage employment, and self-employment started declining. And a lot of these informal enterprises after the enterprise law of 2000 was passed, Le Dansuang was around, he was the father of that law, a lot of them formalized it, which showed that they were moving into something else. And to me, the way East Asian cities are organized, which is very compact with villages that have been engulfed into the city rather than resettled elsewhere, with the tube houses where people have their shop at the ground floor and sleep at the top floor, so a distance between people and jobs is like down the stairs or up the stairs. That's basically the kind of distance you have to go. It has a lot to do with that. This is a hypothesis that we have seen in industrial countries is increasingly a literature for small businesses and to how different cities nurture these dynamics. We don't have the equivalent for developing countries. So we are into a big spatial research project of trying to understand which cities, densities, skill mix, economic diversification have more of the emergence of gazelles. So it's a different line. One is regulation. One is support. One is spatial organization. If I had to bet today, I will bet on the spatial organization. Got it? I also had two questions that were addressed specifically to me and I'll answer them briefly. On the question of what would I have told the labor minister and who is missing, what? I used to work on South Africa and go there pretty regularly and it stopped and it stopped for a very good reason and that is I tried to tell the South African Department of Labor what I thought they might consider doing and they didn't want to hear it. Okay, what I thought they should consider doing was perhaps using some of their resources in order to try to create more jobs but not the ones with the very high minimum wages and all of the social protections and labor legislation and other sorts of things. And when I said they didn't want to hear it, they just said, we don't want to hear it. They said, we fought the struggle against apartheid. We won and every time we get more workers into good covered jobs, we win again. And so basically they said, don't go away mad, just go away and so I went away. Now, the other question was how to think about self-employed people selling one's services to one's self. And here's how I think about that and that is suppose you're a hairdresser to continue with your example and you're a hairdresser and you work for a hairdressing salon and so what you do is you sell your labor services to the owner of the salon. The owner of the salon then pays you a wage and you cut people's hair. Now, suppose that there is no owner of a salon. You sell your labor services to yourself. You cut people's hair and they pay you money. That's essentially the same kind of relationship. You cut hair, you get money for it and that's how I think about that. What's different then is that the, who is paying the money to whom? Whether it's the employer paying money to you or you're paying the money to yourself, you're still getting paid for cutting the same hair. Thank you very much. Yes, Harold. So just quickly, I know we're running out of time. The black economic empowerment question, I think it's important to, I think it was Roger, it's important to differentiate between, so in most countries you have either protection of minorities or you have some sort of special program for interest groups, be they previously marginalized or ethnic groups and so on. And so the black economic empowerment program within South Africa is an obvious example of that. But it has two components as do most of these programs. One is public sector transformation and the second is the economic empowerment component. And the public sector transformation, one has been phenomenally successful. So if you look at all the numbers in terms of racial transformation of the public sector, it's been an unbridled success. Changing economic ownership patterns less so in the context of what has happened as almost an unintended consequence of the good intentions of a state trying to redistribute wealth from sort of previously white hands to black hands. All that happened was that the corporate sector behaves as every corporate sector does, which is in the self interest and maximize their return by providing financing for deals on ownership of companies for the well networked and those closer to the political elite. And so effectively what you got was black economic enrichment rather than empowerment. And that was an unintended consequence. This is not to suggest that there's a deliberate strategy to just a consequence looking down the line. And so because of that, the state has now instituted a broad based black economic empowerment scheme. I still think the real solution going back, so I'm glad Martin brought it up, is around public sector procurement. I think if the state can crack public sector procurement access to micro enterprises, to the informal sector and the clever ways of doing that, then I think you can get to a route where your BEE policy, if you like, is transformative. The young African female workers was indicative just to show the targeting of the incentive scheme. I should say that the wage subsidy scheme is now policy of government. So it's called an employment incentive scheme. And it's for everybody. So it's not just for young workers. The main reason we had job losses in agriculture was the minimum wage, not anything to do with trade unions. You've got capital intensive mining and knowledge intensive financial and business services that provide the skills premium. And that's the bedrock of this growth strategy in terms of the labor market. The team has been great. We have borrowed some 12 minutes from our break, but I think it was worth it. The returns from that borrowing are very high.