 Trying to get back to the basics of great products power comes from sharing information. I try to convince people to slow down Hi, welcome to the soaked by slash podcast here with a new episode my name is isa krautio and next to me is Ona porapudas. Hi, Ona. Hi and For this week's episode. We have a special guest We have Edgar Vordal Aksnes from tibber. I See you nodding semi approvingly of my pronunciation. What do you think? I? Think you're Norwegian is very good. I'm impressed. Thank you so much. I take that take that very warmly Welcome, would you like to give a short introduction of who you are and and also why not why tibber is? Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, hi, my name is Edgar. I'm under CEO and founder of tibber having a background working with software Well in my whole career I started my my founding founding years during my years of study When I did computer science and I think I've been I've been left with both both entrepreneurship and and computer science all the time since then and Today we are five years down the history line of of tibber Which started in? 2016 we are now present in in in five European countries. We have a 200 employees What we're working on is the is a is a very important area. It's about energy We're trying to make energy smarter. That's the whole mission It's to empower people to make smarted usage of of energy So we we sell renewable energy to to households over our digital platform That's one of the cornerstones and the other one is to well, it's to make energy smarter to make make your house spend energy at times where it's wise and Well as little as possible. So we are integrating a lot of technologies in order to fulfill that mission So that's what we're working on currently Nice, and what gave you the ignition to start working on tibber? What was the kind of? Moment when or was there a moment or what gave you the incentive to start? Well, I I work together with Daniel. He's the co-founder of tibber and and we've been both he and me used to work with Any decor any the companies across Europe We we deliver software to these and the companies across 11 different countries and Over a period of time and and we figured out a couple of things that we really weren't able to Puzzle together and why was it like this? So so one thing was that we saw that well in in the eyes of me as a consumer I viewed energy and electricity as something super boring Super expensive and and very little innovation and and personally I found that very ironic since Since well a lot of the stuff that I'm using in my daily life, which I find super modern You know streaming services technology at home and so on all of this uses electricity All of this is very digital and it uses electricity, but Electricity as a product is very little digital in itself or at least that's what we found at the point in time and the other thing was Looking at all of these energy companies out there energy supplies out there We asked ourselves who are they going to be the air BNB of energy in the uber of energy At least at that time it was a little bit more popular than these days and so on so really to embed the digital customers experience and deliver To me as a customer more value Integrating stuff, you know, and so that was one aspect and then the last one we saw that there was this wave of consumer tech coming in with electric cars with solar panels for residential usage and and if you if you go to Shop electric shop nearby here and you want to pick up a panel heater I think you need to be quite skilled if you do not pick up one coming with Wi-Fi included So what we saw that all appliances in your home Gradually is now being controlled from your mobile telephone and we saw this huge potential of connecting all of this to the total energy experience and and We couldn't really figure who all the existing players Should be able to do that because they were like 100 year old companies and not innovating the only thing they were innovating is how to Run campaigns in order to fool me as a customer So we couldn't really figure out how they were going to do tech innovation and product innovation customer experience innovation in all of this So when I am me and Daniel, we were actually sitting at a restaurant in Helsinki We we figured that well if we cannot figure out who is going to be this New player. Why don't we do that ourselves? And that's what we did That's amazing. Yeah, the you're right about the mental impressions immediately going to some something like I Guess like no country for old men Rockefeller type of old images and like very static boring No much not much innovation ever since and like at least here in Finland I'm sure it's similar in other places too. Like when you move and people start calling you up with a contract and and that's basically the extent of it and and and then you There's I read a story about you starting to experiment on your home and kind of gaining insight on how this How how energy as a sort of consumer product or service it could be it could be developed Can you give some can you enlighten us a bit about your experiments of what you learned about how energy could be optimized? Yeah, so we well that was a from a period of time where I Probably was Turning the whole family crazy. That's why I was doing all sorts of experiments in the home but my conviction was that if if I can get Some smart devices at home I should be able to save energy and I really wanted to test it out Myself so the first thing I did was to try to figure out what in my home is spending energy and How can I make algorithms for for actually calculating what what consumes where? And then during that period I found out that 70% of my energy consumption went to heating and I think that's a quite normal number For most households at least in Nordic homes It's a little bit different on the continent, but still it's it's a it's a direction and Then I started investing Into all sorts of things figuring out. Okay. Let me make I can I can switch to a heat pump Yeah, we are heat pumping in one part of my home I can switch to smart thermostats in other parts of my home and then started thinking to Actually program all of this to see what is the effect that I'm able to make and during During a course of five months. I was able to Figure out what was the most effective ways and I reduce my home's consumption from 24,000 kilowatt hours, which is which is not an Unnormal in the market where where where I live I reduced it from 24,000 to 15,000 on a nearly basis actually again I can correct you there. It was even more impressive. It went down from 27,000 actually I remember so it was even more impressive to that. Yeah, I Love it that Isaac remembers it even better You got to do your research. Yeah yeah, and then and then then the job became into Figuring out, how can we really make this scale? How can we make all of this technology available to normal people because that's that's normally the problem is that It's not necessarily there the lack of solutions It's a lack of simple solutions that that I as a customer can Yeah point and click and that's what I do and and then I leave the rest to technology and and and so on So so really to figure out how can we make all of this just seamlessly work in in a normal normal normal day scenario? I want to continue on that what you said about kind of knowing what uses energy and how much and How to make it simpler for consumers? I don't know if you're familiar with Donella Meadows environmental scientist most known for her book limits to growth But she has written about leverage points to intervene in the system. So how do change the system and one of the key ones is Structure of information so access to information for example. I was wondering how important Do you see for your customers for any consumer to know about their energy usage? And how important is that for kind of change of consumer behavior? I? Think it is critical It's it's one of the few critical success sectors in order to reduce consumption because if you I don't think the problem is the lack of information but it's But the the amount of information that is available is super well, it's huge and it's a It's more about the question of how can we? Take all of that information and really find a way to communicate it to to everybody so that it's it gets something that you can act upon Because I think that throughout the whole my my life at least as an adult. I know that yeah I should consume less energy and Heating consumes a lot of energy and blah blah blah and I know all of these General principles, but the point is to try to figure out a way to to make this actionable for you and not Overwhelming but in in such a way that we can take you on board on a journey and then you get a couple of Aha moments and based on that you can take a couple of actions and that's the start of a journey So instead of trying to explain everything it wants to to to find the key things that can turn your home into a more sustainable home and This is probably slightly different from from household to household a person person how you perceive things but There is one common nominator and we and that is to make it simple It is to make it so simple that you don't have to go to an electrician Invest a lot of stuff in your home then you put up a financial barrier for for most household Also, you shouldn't spend a lot of time on this So it should be really the effort that you need to invest personally should be very low and the result you get back It should be be great way greater than 10 10x the the amount of time That's that's what you should perceive as the value and and when you get that right I believe then then we have done something that can well shift shift at least Some some hundreds of thousands of households into the right direction. It's an interesting perspective on that because Tipper is I'm sure you wouldn't identify it on to some extent as a purpose-driven Company is I mean you are running with a strong Sort of intend to have an impact I guess on on energy consumption and thereby Whatever other sustainability is sort of bigger picture Sort of the worldview you might have or I try to not use the word agenda here. It sounds a little dirty but you know what I mean and and But but so the insight here is if I'm reading it correctly is is to to find the value proposition in In in practical more simple things rather than trying to Onboard a customer on some bigger more overwhelming mission of like, okay, let's all together now Get on this journey to sacrifice so we can like save on energy It's it's the value propositions have to be more concrete and I use also said simplistic. That's interesting Yeah, I I'm a huge believer in making things simple to make To make an experience feel very light I think there are there is a multitude of Of ways to do stuff and you can talk about the planet you can talk about the the impact on environment and so on all of these things are Huge topics and and you can feel very small as a person in just having How should we solve all of this? so So I think we started from from a different angle that okay We are aware of all of that and that's that's why we're doing this stuff, but what we are really thrilled about is to Make something that is supporting that huge thing In with some smaller steps and and what we are really thrilled about as founders of the companies to Really to make great products to make great products experiences customer experiences so that you can feel that you Well, when you have been onboarded to to tibber and downloaded the app and just filled in your information You should get a feeling that you've done something smart So you get some verification around that after a few weeks you start We start popping up with a few different comparisons and then we also show you what What is the Area in your home where you have the biggest potential to do something But we only show you one thing so I think In order to attack the bigger things I think we need to think as product persons and and to think about how Product is going to be used in in a massive scale Definitely. Yeah I think For customers, it's important to have the practical view But as a company you seem to have a big mission As as as I said, um, at least in your tech ranch article You said that your goal is to reduce the residential electricity consumption of the european households by 20% That's a pretty tangible and A big goal What what do you think how important is it for a company to have such a kind of Clear and Grand mission. How much does it steer what you do and your decision making and your operations in general as a company? Oh, it steers A lot of the actions that we do. I would say that it's it's more of a direction than a goal um because And and It works in two different ways In some extent it limits us in other ways. It really empowers us so in in that mission about empowering people And and the more concrete mission about reducing european residential energy consumption by 20% We know That all the different Initiatives we are doing should support that direction. It should lead us into that direction um one example we did was that We we're not defining ourselves as an energy company with defining ourselves that we're a company driving Exactly the mission that you you said And so instead of us when we had launched the our app and and analytics and everything around that So instead of us having limited us into defining ourselves as an energy company We saw that we saw a huge need That in order for you to be empowered as a customer you actually need some more more Better insights of your home and the better insights you can get through a real-time energy meter So we started investing into making our own It's called tipper pulse. So it's a it's a hardware device that you it's a dongle that you plug into your meter By that we're getting Way better data. We can give you a lot of better insights We can also control energy consumption at home and so on If we were an energy company, we would never have invested in stuff like that We would never had said that we should that's what we should do And but instead we are we're driven by this mission So we said that well, that's the absolute logical thing to do Let's start making our own hardware. Okay. We have never made hardware before Okay, then we need to hire the best people we can get you start making that hardware It's it's a nightmare of a logistical chain and But we just need to experience how how it is and then we made the first batch and we Probably made with 300 different errors But now we are in the third year of being being also an hardware consumer hardware maker and and we are that's one of the Areas we're expanding quite a lot because we see that Technology needs to be a part of The solutions to the two people so instead of Uh that direction limiting us it really empowered us saying that okay, we actually need to do that Nobody else has done that we we just need to do that in order to fulfill our mission Right and that's is that kind of part of of reinventing this new type of energy company and and sort of And are freeing yourself from the shackles of the legacy in that industry kind of Is it is it difficult to see these new avenues or or I mean I guess This technology gives more opportunities than the limits Yeah, and I also think that The term energy supplier will will hugely change. We have been challenging that thing from from day one In terms of becoming a digital one, but now we're We're not just digital we're We have a marketplace. We're a hardware manufacturer. We're doing Balancing trading across europe in order to balance the whole grid And and we have a couple of other things cooking that can Well that definitely does not fit into the classical image of of of being an energy supplier. So it's um, it's something completely else. So it's uh So that's why I think it's way more important to to think about what is the direction where we're going and and does it fulfill a purpose And if it does then we do it instead of us trying to define ourselves in, you know, a square box and that's it I'm still interested because you uh, you have a very interesting perspective on on the sort of um Value statement Versus I guess sustainability or purpose driven agenda dichotomy and I I guess you don't even see it as a dichotomy Or as a sort of a sort of binary that you have to choose from or compromise between How do you see that has it ever because at least it might not be true in that direction But sometimes you hear this meme said in the other way that like the reason why companies can't be sustainable Is because they're too profit driven or because they're too sort of they're too sort of business plan driven and that can sometimes Mud the purpose behind or muddy muddy the waters behind the sort of actual Purpose related to externalities or whatever do you see that this has ever been a challenge where you need to compromise between these two values Or or has it has it so far been just smooth sailing Well, um never smooth sailing I guess but it's never smooth sailing so Maybe maybe starting with an example we one of the facts we figured out Before starting tipper was that the whole energy industry across Well, the Nordics Europe the world Is having one and one only profit model business model So and and the way it goes is that And this is valid for supplies for grid companies for for traders for for the whole value chain of energy companies really And and how it works is that for each kilowatt hour They deliver to you they try to maximize the profit per kilowatt hour That's the game. So They might try to sell it as as a low low thing But what they really try to do is to maximize the profit per kilowatt hour they deliver to you That's that's the business model right the more candy they sell the more money they get kind of Exactly. So the more energy they sell to you. Yeah, or they profit And the worst it is for your wallet the worst it is for the planet. So it's really a business model that is Uh, well, it's a dinosaur business model in in all different aspects of it So when we started tipper, we we said that let's never profit from the kilowatt hour we sell never ever in our lives That's the only area where we cannot profit We can profit in many many other different ways, but let's let's not do the same stuff That the whole industry has done for 100 years Because that gives us the wrong incentive So we should have the same incentive as as you as a private person And and that happens to be the same incentive That our planet needs because we need to consume less and we need to consume it from from so it's being more Well being better for for the planet. So so That laser foundation where where to some extent it's it there is no compromise on that one It's it's rooted in in the core of the company and so on But in the in the finer dimensions here, there is a lot of different Stuff that we need to evaluate the whole time, but this one is so it's so simple a rule and What is interesting about it is that when starting a company You're doing a lot of stuff. You're building an organization. You're building products. You're Doing marketing and and so on But the hardest thing for any company to do And change is to change their business model And this is also one of the reasons why we chose this direction We we chose a direction that nobody else had been doing earlier And we knew that they're going to have a hard time changing all of that as well in order to copy what we do so as long as we Go that direction. We say that we never profit from the kilowatt hour Then it means that we need to figure out other business models other profit models because obviously we need to make money in order to survive as a company and in order for investors to believe in us and in order for us to grow and so on and so forth. So that's what we did and and and um it's really um it's really not easy to Know what to do but what we don't but when but what we figured out was that when it's not easy to know what we Want to do then we should make it easy for us to know what we do not want to do and so it's um To some extent it's both easy and hard in in that regard. We know definitely we do have an ethical business profit Kind of guideline in terms of what we what we are not going to do And then we also have a lot of freedom in order to shape our our Yeah, our business So it sounds like you put a lot of effort in the beginning to kind of create a business model which has aligned incentives between Investors customers planets everything that the company does um building on that What kind of benefits has that effort you put in the beginning had for example in recruiting or setting company culture or Communications and so on like what are the benefits you've seen compared to other companies that might not have the same kind of structure? oh, I It's uh, it's a very it's a crystal clear story to tell because it it really it really am Maybe it's coming from us as um This is not the first company we start we have made all the different errors earlier on in our career And and we were starting the company when we were In our mid 30s or something like that and Because what we we were really conscious about yeah, we know how to build products. We know how to build teams we but what we what we know will have to work is is an Is not is well, we were Maybe it's fair to say that we were on the hunt of virality. I think that's what a lot of At least consumer businesses want to achieve is is virality in in terms of getting virality you need to have a You need to have a good platform in terms of scaling scaling with a story that is super clear and and uh, in terms of onboarding You need to have the same story to investors to the audience and and to the consumers and as well as to To the teammates you're trying to to get in the door so I think we spend a lot of time and just getting that story so that it it really works across all of these different Groups of very critical people around us and the benefits around that later on has been and well, I I I think I would say that it has been very simple for us to raise money And that has been easy because it has been super simple for us to tell a story And that has been super simple for us because it has been we have been able to attract talent Because of this very crystal clear mission The very crystal clear no in terms of what we do not want to do And I think we've been able to get talent in the door that we well, they Basically said bye-bye to very very nice compensation packages and and jumped on a very risky startup in instead of Pursuing a safe for a carrier bet. So I think it's I think it's been vital in terms of how we have been able to move forward over over these years If I may follow up on something you said You're a multiple-time founder. It's not your first time founding company So you said you've already made a lot of the errors that you've learned from I've heard a lot of kind of people saying that Being a founder is so hard in itself that they want to kind of start with the Less less of an impact driven company to learn the trade and then Build an impact driven company after after they made the mistakes and learn from them Do you think that's um in your opinion the right path to first learn the kind of trade and then Go towards something you really believe in or should you start With the impact you want to make first and learn the trade while you do it. Is there any difference? I think you should start with what you find thrilling for yourself I I wouldn't have started tipper if I didn't find it fun If I didn't have anything personally that I am experiencing on a daily level that that That I feel that this is well worth Spending my spending my life on spending Sweating being Being I'm all you know starting a company. You're almost harassing yourself Every other second and it's a super painful process and in order to sustain through such a process You need to really try with it. You need to be thrilled about what you do and I think that's a much bigger factor in terms of Where you should start if you if you if you try to make a cookbook on how to be a founder I think you're pretty lost. So I think you should there is only one guide and you should do what you're thrilled about if it if it's If you're really thrilled about making an impact. Well, don't start by making an accounting company or consultancy company first and in order to learn the trade rather Get a good co-founder Or a couple of other good people that can help you And bringing on that experience and then you do what you really care about Well, that's at least my two cents. It sounds good I'm I'm still interested in because you are in an industry with a lot of old players as you've said a lot of dinosaurs What is that like because they're massive a lot of them and and and it's a very sort of Everyone gets energy through their house. It's basically everyone and it's it's everyone's used to it Everyone's used to the old business model. I don't know. What is it like? Reinventing such a business which is such a massive and strong legacy There must be many aspects to it. Can you yeah, what has it been like? Yeah, maybe one story here is What we really set out to do was was a very impossible thing We we wanted to make a and and a product Of you experiencing energy that makes you Love the product and that had never happened before And the other thing we tried to achieve was that well I I personally hate As from being a consumer I really really hate Salespeople whether it's from the telephone Or it's on the street or whatever, but I really hate those sales experiences because I know Deep in my heart that I'm going to be fooled now Because I know that that person there is going to get a one 100 euro bonus when he sells me something And I know that that is not going to be the best deal I get So I really hate those experiences. So what we what we also said that is that we will never ever hire any salespeople in the company Neither on the payroll nor through subsidiaries nor through partners never So we we have no salespeople And and when I I did say that allowed five years ago And the whole industry was laughing at me. You cannot sell energy without having salespeople That's the only thing you need you have need to have telemarketers You need to have people running out there with getting bonuses for each and every contract they land with with you our our mindset was to Build a great product and a big like product that is so good that you tell your neighbor your friend your colleague about it And today we are growing with tens of thousands of customers each and every month With no salespeople and Obviously I I think this is a Story that fits perfectly together with with Gandhi's statement um And I think Gandhi said said something like this First they Ignore you Then they laugh at you Then they fight you and then you win And I think that's my experience with the existing industry is that in the start they were ignoring us They they and then they started laughing at us. Yeah, okay, but you can't you guys can't do that um Now they've been fighting us for a couple of years And in our original market being the Norwegian market We now become the second biggest and disappear and that's just after being in the market for three years And that that is a change that has been super fast in in this industry And we are well, we're we're on the same Track record in in in the markets where we enter so it's um Yeah, I I think Gandhi said it the best way there's a hats off move. I guess no salespeople ever that is a hats off very nice Very impressive. Yeah thanks It is yeah, do you have any questions any uh, let me I guess if you don't have any other Questions that we could I mean I'd love to hear what's next What's what's going on now? I mean the trajectory seems massive Yeah, I think there are several things we we are um We're five years down the line as as said it still feels like we have just started And for me, I think it's uh, at least for me personally, it's uh, it's an important field to have because then I know there is a motivation to do way more and Obviously we would like to what we're working on is to is an expansion across Europe We're also looking into other geographies because we we see that there is the same Need we we see the same Hints everywhere that that that that this stuff is both needed and it will fly um but we also My personal ambition is to Disconnect my my own house from the the electric grid to to make my own house self-sustained um In order to get there and in order to get there in a in a way that it's easy for people to get there That's quite a long journey. So That means we need to develop a lot of technology Work with a lot of partners to figure out stuff that today seems quite impossible So I'm I'm pretty sure that we have a lot of challenges in front of us That's really interesting. Uh, can you actually specify a little bit like What is the benefit of having self-sustained energy? Households and is it energy efficient to have kind of households? I don't know create their own energy or what's the vision and what are the key bottle next to get there um That depends the last question there is highly depending On on where you live in the world Obviously a huge challenge in in the Nordic countries is Is heating during the winter? um So there's a lot of a lot of different things to attack there um Then you have the well You definitely have solutions about how to produce your own energy. You have solar, which is now getting Getting relatively affordable But you do have a lot of challenges in storing energy That's not on an affordable level today and and utilizing that in a in a way that makes sense so Again, this is more of a very concrete picture about a direction that that we are very obsessed about and um I'm not well, I cannot say Today that I'm 100 percent certain that it's possible that my home will will get there But I don't know that if we do not try we will never get there. So I think we will continue hammering And see how close we can get Do you think you're gonna have to go through those Gandhi steps again if you try to go completely off the grid? Probably yeah, right. Okay, but I respect the I respect the moxie. It's very nice And also was a delight before we went doing research for this episode. It was a delight to get to know Tiber. It sounds like a very very very Interesting company. Definitely. I love the mission as well Thank you, Edgar. Thank you for joining us on the show by slash podcast Thanks. Thank you. It's been a pleasure same. Thank you so much And remember to uh, subscribe like and comment and we'll be back with the next episode shortly. Thank you