 Oh, what happened there Josh? Hey there, how are you? There we go. I'm good. How are you doing? Well, they tell us Yeah, it's gonna say they they tell us that we'll be out of Hazardous air quality by tomorrow, which would be really nice Of course, they've been optimistic before so we'll see Yeah, most say I've been trapped in my basement with an industrial air filter running so They're just Hunker down stand inside putting as many air filters as they possibly can Yeah Yeah happy that you know That between the allergies and ceramics that I happen to have stuff, you know including Heavy-duty air filters and in 99 masks. I Actually, yeah, Ava way. I had a whole box of non PPE compliant and 95 masks that they gave away to the neighborhood so Because lots of people didn't have them Yeah Hey Jennifer Hey Can you hear me? Okay. Yeah. Oh Awesome Apologies for missing a few Meetings I have been eaten up by me like work meetings lately Are we recording? Yes, we are. I guess we ought to record in this channel the We don't have a heavy-duty agenda for this Jennifer last week we had a discussion around this whole Steering committee etc suggestion that Alexis has advanced at the TSE level folks from The Nats and GRPC project showed up. I Think the summary of what we got out of the meeting was They have Issues with CNCF governance requirements, but none of them seem to be solvable using a steering committee At least that was what I got out of it and we didn't really have a lot pending for here I would like to actually get going on taking up some more pieces of our planned content since we've Written the stuff that we mostly written the stuff that we already claimed Anybody have anything else? Go ahead I saw I still have my to-do list to do to work on I saw the list to work My internet connection Down and I am tethering from my phone right now. So I'm probably well You want to kill yeah, you want to kill your video that might help you might want to kill your video to you Josh Just so yeah, okay, just so she's not seeing it. Okay. Yeah Yeah, then we can just have voice the Okay So let me actually look One thing is if somebody can LGTM the what is governance thing? Because all the comments on that have been addressed I was just taking a look at that Was there was there something else that Don was gonna bring up I still have content that I Volunteered to do that. I have not worked on yet So I don't know if there was something else Don wanted to bring up there on Stuff she was doing I think we merged the stuff that I was working on So I would say if you have additional comments on it just you can just PR them in We decided it was sort of good enough Based on what we had in an effort to get things out more more quickly Was that your question or did I misunderstand that? Oh, no, no I was saying I have different stuff that I signed up to do and I just haven't gotten to it yet And but I think you would start to say something about there was something you were working on but I wasn't sure if that was Maybe maybe I agreed to do the charter stuff, but I haven't actually started it yet So I'm hoping to start it later this week Awesome Yeah, and I'm I'm signed up for a basic project paperwork because that's more content. I haven't draft form From the open source way. So I just need to get it cleaned up and made appropriate to the CNCF Because of course there's certain kinds of paperwork the CNCF requires Although I want to kind of avoid I want to I want to make the requirements stuff separate. So Okay Beyond that actually everything else from I guess the one other thing that's not assigned he is what to have in your governance dot md file and April has actually taken on a couple of things that she has also not written yet But they one thing unassigned is what to have in your governance that MD file and then we need to actually get going on doing things for Requirements I might actually skip ahead and start working on You know, what does it mean to adopt the CNCF IP policy? since that's something I'm dealing with on a number of Red Hat sponsored projects right now So anybody know if contributor growth has already written up a guide to a how to contribute document I See anything a contributors guide or a how to contribute so For the requirements section, which we haven't really started working on yet what I was envisioning was a series of Documents from us each of which is a guide to how to address one requirement at the at the various levels if you follow me And so one of the requirements for sandbox is you must have a how to contribute document So it feels like, you know, our job as CIG contributor strategies a whole not necessarily as governance is That we should have oh Actually, let me look at the template thing. I bet that's where that is like contributing template Yeah, I feel like so this is why I was saying I feel like there is Yeah, I feel like this is it. I don't think it's in GitHub yet Okay Yeah, because I mean hopefully for a lot of these things the requirements we can say you have to have a contributing You know a how to contribute document and here's a template for it, for example and and then we're kind of done the other things will require more write-up like CoC enforcement really needs a write-up and we're going to need to work with CNCF staff on that Because part of the escalation staff for CoC enforcement involves the CNCF staff the So But I mean it's a bit of information that really like I'm going through this with projects and they are adopting the CNCF CoC, but they really don't have Any structure set up for how they're going to enforce that CoC if people are behaving badly And so that's guidance that we really need to give I Feel like there's there's so many levels to that particular area for the contributing thing We definitely have the template It's it's in process. It's I think there's a few areas. It's not in GitHub for code of conduct stuff I feel like It's it's such a I don't know there's I want to use the word cesspool But that's not quite it either. I don't want to I don't I don't How do I put this I don't want to be saying like this is how this is how people should behave I know the CNCF has a code of conduct, but it it does like the thing that a lot of projects Fail to have is sort of like how are you going to handle this and it kind of ties a little bit into governance because you need to have a separation of You need to have a specific role Associated with this and then you need a way to address when the problem is in your Like a community member or contributor And what that looks like as well So it's not that I want to tell people this is what you should do, but you need to have a way to handle Problems to not not just handling but recognize that there's a problem acknowledge the problem and handle the problem It sounds like you want to write this I've already got stuff. I'm like that I need to do that. I haven't done but I do like it's one of these things I feel like it needs a lot of care And I'm wondering I'm happy to provide feedback. I'm wondering if there's anybody that has more experience writing this kind of stuff. That's involved And this group already I don't know Or if this is an area where we Ask people like get people more involved in this group To like contribute their thoughts here I'm just trying to think like this is an area where like I think a lot of engineers don't even think about it It's just like oh everybody's gonna be nice Like I saw this all the time with chef like oh everybody will just be nice like no, that's not that's That's not it Hold on. I'm just getting caught up on notes Maybe we just like Could have like a hacking session on this and just like I'll put some notes in and then get some feedback From some specialists on code of conduct stuff. I mean Like suggestions, I don't know Don do you have any feelings here? I have too many feelings. I feel like I'm not making any sense A little bit tricky Yeah, I don't know maybe we do just need a hacking session or we can kind of work on work on some of the stuff because I feel like I feel like several of us have bits and pieces of this already like I've written code of conducts and I've been on the enforcement committees, but But I think it's a little bit different to you for the CNCF projects Yeah, well, I think we just need to figure this out. I suspect we have enough of the information I would also say the first cut There's none tricky recommendations here that are fairly general That and believe it or not are more than what a lot of CNCF projects are already doing like having a coc violations review For example, and having some kind of coc committee that meets confidentially most projects don't have that within the CNCF Oops, that was muted and our spirit of getting things, you know getting things out to the point where they're useful for people. I think I think we could pretty easily put together some generic advice And and then we can build on it if we think that people people need more I guess I'm saying we should try not to overthink this one too much because it could easily we could easily go there That that makes sense. So so basically thinking about it from like a perspective of what are Some of the Instead of all the examples I have in my head of like, oh man, I totally wasn't prepared for that thing. Think about like that the the The low hanging fruits of like here are the specific strategies Make sure you do that You know, I'm not going to go into that I don't like that the the the the low hanging fruits of like here are the specific strategies make sure you do these things. Here's an example of how to add this To your repositories your projects One of the things I've kind of wondered is Is there and like any project. Are they going to have enough People on the project to have an anonymous COC meeting type thing and is there Space in cnc and cnc f for people to have a more aggregates Not committee but something where Like you group projects together and then there's a centralized COC handling thing So that it's like a benefit of joining cnc f is that you get like It's like you're going to handle the project issues yourself Unless you're the problem But you get this benefit Of a shared responsibility I I think that would be an excellent thing to bring up with The staff and if the staff tells us, you know doesn't have answers with the TOC Because you're right a lot of projects Are too small Because particularly one of the other things that you want in the COC committee right is some personal diversity Because if your COC committee is composed entirely of white men who work for the same company That's going to lead to an inability to handle certain kinds of reports The And And some projects are not able to get away from that right because their contributor base currently consists of you know 80% of white men who work for the same company so I think that would be worthwhile bring up because when part of what we're doing with the requirements is actually going through the requirements And bringing them to the staff for the TOC and saying hey this requirement is genuinely a problem for projects and here's why Yeah, I really like the idea I really like the idea of bringing it up with staff for the Because I also think you know being on some of these in the past Some of the most helpful people were like HR people and companies you know foundations have HR people who understand kind of the Understand how to keep things confidential they understand how You know how there might be legal implications they understand some of the some of the ways of dealing with with violations that We might not think of Yeah I think that's all really good so who wants to take the ball on that I mean I would say the first person to talk to you about that is Amy And then Amy will tell us what other staff we want to talk to And then if the staff you know If we're extremely lucky they'll say well we were already working on that And more likely they will say You need to bring this up at the October you know 15th TOC meeting The one the one thing I do want to bring up about this is that there is a CNCF Code of conduct page and this came up for me with the KCDs actually and One of the requirements there was everyone has to have a code of conduct That points to this and that code of conduct points to a single person so A key thing about this is making sure that We don't get the oh yes we already have this and it's this person Instead we want to have it be a little bit more Decentralized and made up of A combination of people from across projects So just want to give that insight into my the challenges that I've had with talking to CNCF About CoC type stuff. I'm happy to take on this talk to Amy as an initial thing Not the driver for all things here, but I will definitely Talk to Amy and find out whether this is even a possibility Yeah, well because we've we've talked about we've dealt with some other things before Where you know I brought it up with CNCF staff and they're like Wait until next to CoC meeting because we actually have a thing for that The now this might also be one of the ones of hey that never reached the top 20 in our priority list In which case you know next step is to bring it to the CoC But we can often save some effort by finding out from the staff first whether or not there's something in process Because I agree with you that having Reports go to the single person at the Linux Foundation is really not adequate. Okay Okay, I mean that's all I have we all have to do is it doesn't seem any point in piling on more to do is until we've done The you know except to the extent look over the sort of checklist items for requirements, etc And if if you happen to know someone who is not the three of us Or April Who might be available or have material for one of these things I don't know if you know Please do ping them For for more parallel work. Yeah, I'll have a think about that I think it would be I think it'd be great to get more people involved in the governance working group anyways Okay Anything else not for me not for me Okay Great I'm good to talk to both of you Okay Okay Okay Okay great I'm good to talk to both of you If you have the rest of this hour blocked out for this meeting maybe use the time to get started on one of those documents the Otherwise see you on Slack and you know then in two weeks from now Oh and the one thing from the agenda. It's already there in the agenda is The steering committee thing is going to come up again on the 29th at the TOC meeting public TOC meeting So to the extent that we could have people from this working group there it would be helpful Yeah, I should be able to make it me too Awesome Okay Talk to you later All right. See ya Bye