 That's right. The Supreme Court has officially overturned Roe v. Wade. Hey, I'm James. I host Modern Day Debate. In light of the recent news of Roe vs. Wade, we thought this would be an opportunity to bring together six strangers to discuss both Roe vs. Wade as well as abortion more broadly in a peaceful dialogue which we are calling our first modern-day discourse. It's just a very simple definition that abortion ends the life intentionally of an innocent human being. And on that basis alone, it is murder. Do I feel that women should be called murderers? No, I don't feel that at all. And I think that we have to recognize that the law is supposed to protect our fellow human beings, all of them. And so that's my stance. I'd say, I guess, I'm sort of the odd man on my team. I guess what I'd say is we all agreed that life begins at conception in different ways. And we had different nuances and different contexts for our arguments. So that's not to say anyone here is not being intellectually honest, like at all. But I think we, of course, in society, find... We find ways all the time that we can see murder as socially acceptable or at least understandable. I imagine as to... For the stuff, I can go into that more if you guys would like. I'd imagine that in terms of the stuff you guys said, well, we probably will get into, like, where does life begin? Do we have certain cutoffs that it would be acceptable or not acceptable to commit murder, per se? And we can discuss that more closely, but in terms of the statement, I'd say I'm in agreement. Hey, how's it going? My name is Samar. When it comes to the abortion issue, I would say I'm pretty in the center. I can definitely see arguments from both sides. And I like a lot of what's being said during the panel. I would say I lean slightly pro-choice in the way, but with major reservations and major trepidation. I also take issue with Roe v. Wade. I think Roe v. Wade is a bad decision if you care about democracy and the integrity of our democratic structures. I think a lot of people tend to say it's getting hung up on legal technicalities if you would oppose abortion from a policy standpoint or if you would support it or oppose Roe v. Wade. I think that's a false dichotomy. I don't think that's true. I think that murder is defined as the unlawful and premeditated killing of one person by another. And so that's the only reason for why. I would say it's not murder, but obviously it is killing of one person by another, or taking the life of one person by another. That's the only reason for why... Quick question. Is your contention with the word unlawful because abortion is legal? Right, because it depends on the state. It depends, essentially. I completely agree with both of you when it comes to the definition game, but I think what we're arguing over here... I don't think these are common arguments you see every day in terms of whether abortion is murder. I think it is more if the idea of abortion violates the common sense people have of a murder and whether it's a morally unjustified killing. So I'd say you guys are completely right and I agree with you. But I'd say just in the context of the conversation we're having, it's good to bring up the nuance. I just don't think it's what most people argue about. The issue, again, when we're talking about if abortion is ethically permissible, you have to address what abortion is doing. And abortion is ending the life of a fellow human being without justification. The unborn has not done anything. We agreed at the beginning of this that the unborn is a life. Biologically is a very clear line. Everybody in the world can have a slightly different philosophy if he talks about sentience or someone talks about viability. Those are all levels of development. I think that the biggest thing that I have with it is that it is distinctly different than a human being. And I find the idea that it's exactly the same mind-boggling to me. This would be another case within which I would say the mother, she did not deliberately participate in the process through which another life is created and then forced to be dependent upon her. Somebody forced her to essentially create a life and then it was forced to be dependent upon her. I would say that two wrongs don't really make a right, but in this instance, like I said, I just don't think that she has the responsibility. Yeah, as someone that would probably never have to experience abortion, I think it's still, I can imagine something as harrowing, as being stripped of all physical anatomy and then being forced to carry the, I guess, literal consequences of said issues when that was never, like you did very little to even be put in that situation. The other issue I have with this, whenever this subject or question comes up as a justification for abortion, the implication is that people who are conceived in rape are less valuable and it's okay for them to be killed in an abortion. And I think that's kind of a devastating consequence in our culture that people who have been conceived in rape have to feel like most of society thinks I shouldn't be here. I wouldn't say that's the case. I'm not saying that because a woman is raped, she should obviously want an abortion. I would disagree with that characterization. I don't think that those people are less valuable or that they, I think that a woman who's been sexually assaulted and chooses to carry her baby, whether she wants to parent that child or put them up for adoption. I think that is her choice and that's an incredibly valid choice to make and that may be how she chooses to heal from her trauma, but that doesn't make it okay to force that choice on other people. My name is Tiara and I am firmly and passionately pro-choice. It's something I feel very passionately about and I've lived the experience of the foster care system in the United States. It's not a valid or productive, viable solution that we have. And the adoption industry isn't much better. And at the end of the day, I think quality of life trumps life and bodily autonomy is entitled to women as well, not just everyone else. I would say in that respect, I think, again, our culture has created this sense that those children are horrible even in just the presentation that you made that it would be horrible for her to carry that child. It would be horrible for her to be forced to carry that child. I think that's an important distinction. The implication is that there are some humans that are okay to kill. So I guess I have sort of an opinion that might divulge from the mainstream narrative around Roe v. Wade and that's because my opinion is mostly legal in nature. So whether or not I'd support abortion from a policy standpoint, I can recognize that legally Roe v. Wade was not a good decision. It shouldn't have been made. The saying the 14th Amendment covers abortion is totally disingenuous. And, you know, I don't like the idea of normalizing procedural shortcuts in the judicial system. It's not really the place of the judiciary to make up new rights out of thin air. So from a legal regard, we can leave the moral perspective aside and we can leave the policy perspective aside if you want to understand my view. But legally, it was a bad decision. I completely agree with that. Yep. Yeah, you said it well. And to my point earlier and all through this, in the oral arguments, it was one of the justices that asked the attorney if it was established that the unborn fetus was a person under the protection of the 14th Amendment, you wouldn't have a case, basically. And the attorney agreed. She said my case would be very difficult indeed. And that's still the issue. We're still talking about if the fetus is a person, do we have the right to kill it? For whatever the reasoning is, if that is a human being and a living human being, why does that person not deserve the same rights that all of us have? My name is Nancy. I'm pro-life because I believe this is a human rights issue. And the fundamental right to life obviously takes precedence over all other rights, right to privacy or anything else. I believe that those of us with a voice have an obligation to speak on behalf of those who can't defend themselves and the unborn clearly cannot defend themselves. Yeah, I mean, if the Supreme Court was able to strike it down, then I imagine it's sort of like a process of figuring out what are the strongest arguments for things, I guess. And apparently this one was not that strong if it was able to be struck down. Those of you who disagree, please step in. Sure. Boy, I hate legal theory so much. And I will never become a warrior because of it. In reality, you are all correct. It seems to be the case that it was done very poorly. The Roe v. Wade was done very poorly. That said, I still am being obviously for sure, so I have the belief that it should have been done better or by any means to be done, quote, unquote, legally. For me, I don't necessarily think the 14th Amendment is the perfect place for Roe v. Wade, but I certainly think it factors in. Privacy is a huge part of this. And we've seen that in a lot of the legislation that's coming out of Texas, where they're requiring medical providers to report certain conditions that are often not even in any way related to pregnancy or abortion or miscarriage. And that's a gross violation of privacy. I think it's in the prosecution of it that largely the 14th Amendment will come into play. And it's, you know, I think even if we're saying that abortion is wrong, that abortion is bad, that it's going to get into really murky waters that no one's going to be comfortable with. I think if we consider the one in every five women had an abortion, I'm pretty sure we come across with anyone and we know someone who had an abortion. And that's the reason why I'm so passionate about this issue because the people that I know, they suffered a great deal. I know countless women who have had abortions. I'm old enough to have been around. And I also had an abortion here in Fort Collins in 1978 in a private clinic. There were no protesters at that time. There was no sidewalk counseling. There was nothing. I knew that I had killed my child. I knew that it was my choice. And putting those two together, I felt like I couldn't tell anybody that I regretted it because the answer is, well, you chose to do that. So I kept silent about it for years. And through a number of circumstances in my life, I eventually realized what I was grieving for. And ironically, it was public television that showed me what I had done because in 1983, they showed a documentary called Abortion Clinic, and it's available online right now. And they showed some gals going through an abortion process and they both go through a section abortion. The abortionists, they passed the jar, the contents, off to the next room, and they go in the next room where they pick it apart. And I could see that they were picking apart the tiny pieces of a baby. And it devastated me. And that was the first time that I really put it together of what I had done to my child. I think that's a really valid experience, and I would never tell you that your feelings or your experience is incorrect. I would say that from my perspective, the solution isn't to do away with abortion. It's about being informed, right? I think, and I do think that we've made a lot of progress in that regard, and what we're requiring is said to women, seeking an abortion, requiring that they have this initial discussion in a room alone without their support person. And just in case they're being pressured into that situation, to talk about what are the reasons that you're making this choice, and would you like resources to see if we can solve that problem so that you have these other alternatives, I think that's the solution not doing away with abortion altogether. Since we mostly seem to be in agreement, maybe we can delve into the prompt a bit further and say which of us think that fathers should have an equal say versus a less than equal say? Should it be 50, 50, 60, 40? Where should we draw the line? I mean, obviously you can't quantify it, but where should we draw the line, generally? I have a hard time qualifying it in percentages, because I guess I would say 0% in the actual making of the choice. OK. 100% in the ability to voice what their intentions are and what their stance is. I mean, I would say that it should matter. It would be hard to put into a number because ultimately, I would say that the mother would be able to veto. I'm Andrew. I guess I'm on the pro-life side today. Although I think that a better category within which to place me would be the pro-sentient side. As I said in the panel, there's been evidence to suggest that sentience emerges as early as seven or eight weeks to which I would place or I would apply the precautionary period, which would essentially make me mostly pro-life. I sort of have a not-so-popular opinion that in my particular flavor of pro-choice, I think that if a father from the very beginning decides they don't want to be involved and would like to sign away their rights, I think they should be allowed to do that. I don't think fathers should be able to come in and out. I think that's toxic and damaging to children. But frankly, I think that if a father doesn't want to be there, it's better for the kid for them to not be. And I think they should have the right, same as I can choose to not have a baby after I've gotten pregnant. I think that fathers should be able to, in that initial timeframe, say, I don't want any part of it, sign away my rights, and I'm not responsible. And I guess I just, you know, that's my hot take. I think that's reasonable. Radical equality. I think that's pretty reasonable, honestly. Would that be like something we legislate? Like, we're going to legislate that? I think it's really hard, and I think it's more of an idealized society because there is the reality that children have needs and children need to be fed. And if this one parent isn't able to fulfill those needs, whose responsibility should it be? And I think it comes into this big, larger debate, and I don't know how exactly that could be implemented, but I could tell you that I... In principle, this is... At 17 years old, I said, hey, man, you don't want any part of it. Let me know now, and we'll go our separate ways. And I meant it. I think that's totally reasonable. Honestly, I was never in that situation, nor am I proud of that situation. Me and my dad and I are still... My dad has fulfilled every single need that he has, but if it were the case, we're like even... That said, like, you know, my mom, on the other hand, we have what has done sometimes. I have stopped talking to my mother. I think even from like a... Even as a child, a young age, or even as a mother, you have the right to be like, yo, you're not doing your job as we need to. You're not doing XYZ, TVH. I don't think... I think I have the right to kind of veto your decision on this because you're not really doing what we need to. And if they just straight up leave and just sign off that, yeah, I don't care, do it, whatever, then, well, I mean, that's consensual about me. But it's kind of sad, too, because at the same time, once again, it's encouraging that you can keep with that behavior. You can keep impregnating girls and that you're going to be totally responsible. And I don't think it's good for society to have that. In fact, we need... I guess I don't think that baby should be used to punish people and teach them lessons. I thought about punishing, but being... No, when you are... No, you are... You want to have sexual sex with your partner, definitely in your mind, and you should keep that idea that you are going to be probably impregnating that girl and that you should be responsible for that. Yeah, I think it's more so forcing you to take responsibility for the consequences of your actions. Because, yeah, I mean, as a man, you know you're going in and you know what can happen. And I have a perspective, too, that it might be... I'm going to add something else that when it comes to ethics, right, or morally, right or wrong. And I don't think it's morally right for an organization and an entire abortion industry to profit at the expense of what happens to a woman. That, I think, is totally immoral, what they do. And that they make millions and millions and millions of dollars. And even from taxpayers' money, it shouldn't be like that, that they are taking from our money, hard-earned money, and pay for the abortions, I think is totally wrong. I don't think that's a thing. Yeah, I could... Planned Parenthood does receive federal funding, but that specifically is not allowed to be used for abortions. They already declared that the majority of the core... The argument that comes in that people say is like, well, they kind of are because they're paying to keep the lights on and they're paying for the building, but the building wouldn't cost more money if they were only providing cancer screenings and birth control. So I would disagree with that characterization, I think. Pregnancy centers are free, by the way. And if they consider that the abortion... And they don't survive because of contributions, but my point is that they shouldn't profit out of what happens when a woman is raped and then they shouldn't profit out of pregnancy centers. They're a different monster entirely, and I morally object to at least the way that they have been run locally for us. Well, it sounds like... So you say it's immoral to profit off of loss or suffering. And I think we all agree, like, I'd feel pretty bad if that thing happens, but it sounds more... But where do we draw the line here, right? Because then the way you said it makes it seem... Make money, but should clarify a little bit more by ending even, that we're talking about ending a human life and the most vulnerable being in the human race, and that is a baby, and that doesn't have a voice. It doesn't have a choice. And it's never a choice when a woman is pretty much giving one, because every time I've been into the communities and then talk to young women, it's always, oh, it's only plant-based hood. I didn't even know that there were other alternatives. So that's my point, and it shouldn't be allowed that you profit out of ending the life of a human being. Hello, I'm Juliana, and I'm pro-life. And I need to be able to talk to a lot of people whether your pro-choice pro-life is so important to have discussions like the panel that we have today. And it was amazing to have those discussions because too many people are suffering because of this issue. We will never know exactly what is the toll that the issue of abortion is causing in all our communities. Thanks for watching our first episode of Modern Day Discourse, a series focused on bringing about peaceful conversations about the big questions of life. Be sure to subscribe as we'll have many more coming in the future.