 is a former MP aspirant of Kittu-Chachad North. And his hair tellers all about what's happening in the political scene. Apart from that, he is part of the clergy and he's a mediation awareness expert. He'll tell us a little bit about that. But I'm also joined with Ryan Sacco, who's also going to help me steer this conversation on politics. Sacco, you went to tell us something All right, let me introduce myself. Good morning to you. Many thanks once again for joining us. I know Steph was holding it down, but nice to meet you. Once again for another amazing week of amazing shows and programming right here at Y2 for 4 Channel. My good name is Sacco, like Stephanie has said. We are about to get into politics. But towards the tail end of this morning's show, we'll be talking about occupational stagnation. What exactly does it take for you to make progress in the professional sector, especially when it comes to measuring in specific careers? Like for example, today we have somebody on set who actually has experience in politics. And also journalism, talk about being a NASA doctor and so many other professions. Is there a way that you can make progress without holding it down for one position maybe for like five, 10 years before you now become a certified expert in your field? And what are the obstacles in the professional space? So today we'll be taking a look at that. And like I said towards the tail end, we'll be joined by a very powerful guest, two gentlemen from different expertise experiences as well who will be sharing their insights on that. But away from that, good morning and welcome. This is Zoe in the morning. Back to you, Steph. Okay, so now with that, Sacco has introduced what you're supposed to expect. Now I'll give it to Naftali, Mr. Naftali. The name is right, Osvungu. Yeah, Naftali Osvungu. Yes, okay. Introduce yourself. You are also a mediation expert. If I'm not wrong, tell us a little bit about that. Yeah, hello viewers. My name is Naftali Osvungu. I'm a member of the clergy and I'm also a certified professional mediator. A mediator is a new thing in Kenya. It came about as a result of the Constitution of Kenya 2010 under Article 159 in regard to judicial authority. Now there is that aspect in part two. In exercising judicial authority, the courts and the tribunals shall be guided by the following principles. Say, alternative dispute resolution mechanism in including reconciliation, mediation, arbitration, and the traditional dispute resolution mechanisms shall be promoted subject to clustering. Now apart from that normal litigation process, the policies under the Constitution of Kenya gave the people of Kenya an alternative dispute resolution and this is now where we find mediators, reconcilers. So for you to become a certified provisional mediator, you have to go through a training. Like now I underwent a provisional training through the African Nazarene University and I graduated and now I'm a certified provisional mediator. A mediator is an individual who assists disputants to resolve their conflict by just facilitating, by becoming a neutral party. So now the disputants will have an opportunity to come up with their own solution and then once they have come up with a recommendation, they will have a final verdict and this verdict is now deposited at the mediation registrar at the court, Milomani locals. So I'm also accredited by the Mediation Accreditation Committee. Quite new, I've just gotten to learn about it. As you said, I got in with the 2010 Constitution that was there and it's interesting because we want to also discuss the talks on amendment of the Constitution and even the bipartisan talks which also involve a mediator and I'm assuming that all of our mediators is what the former president of Bassangio played. Exactly. Okay, so I have a good idea of what it is. So there is a difference between mediation and dialogue. So when you have a neutral party, who is at third party, then it becomes a mediation. With the Bassangio now it was mediation but without the Bassangio, these are dialogue. Dialogue. A dialogue is a conversation between two people or two groups apart from what? Mediation. Mediation, there must be a third party who is neutral. Okay, makes a lot of sense. Sakwa, you look like you want to say something. No, I'm just digesting but Mr. Naftali, it's interesting, you know, I've always had a problem contrasting between an arbitrator and an mediator. Maybe perhaps if you can, is it just another, maybe a directive on an advocate to describe it? Okay, there is the aspect of hyponyms and hyponyms. Right. A hyponym is a word that is more specific than a given word. Okay. Now, mediation has hyponyms. Like consolation, reconciliation, arbitration, yeah. But these hyponyms stand on their own. Abitration is not mediation. When it is arbitration, then it means there is the presence of an authority, like now a judge or a magistrate who is giving a verdict. Okay. But with mediation, it's not a public officer. It is an individual who is trained to facilitate the word. The process. The dialogue, yeah. Okay. But with arbitration, arbitration is more legal. Right. Yeah, but it is also an alternative. Alternative dispute resolution mechanism. Right. And you had mentioned reconciliation, dialogues are nice. It's a good scope of understanding now. I've gotten. So arbitration mainly might maybe have a litigation process. Yeah, no, no. Abitration is like court annexed mediation. It must result to an higher authority, like a magistrate. A magistrate must determine this verdict, yeah. But with mediation, the verdict is from the disputants who come up with their own solution. Then now the mediator facilitates and gives what? That final settlement and the deposit. And these final settlements become like an op-edictum. It is not a subject to appeal. Okay. Yeah. So with arbitration, does the judge also facilitate or is it just there to give a verdict? In fact, arbitration now, it is that hearing and determination. So the judge hears, then determines. Then how different is it from the normal court cases? Yeah. Now, you see, with arbitration, the disputants may maybe say the accuser and the accused may face the judge. With or without their legal counsel. Oh, okay. Yeah. So it is somehow disoriented from the litigation, but it is a legal process. Okay. Yeah. You are giving authority as an arbiter, judicial authority. Yeah. What? Okay. I know we're digging into this now. So there is arbitration, there is reconciliation, and there is mediation. Reconciliation is getting two things correspond. Yeah. Or re-establishing cordial relations. Maybe this party and that party had some well-defined cordial relations, but because of two things, these cordial relations was dismantled. Now you are reconciling them. In fact, reconciliation began from the covenant of the blood of Jesus Christ. Apostle Paul asks, in the book of 1 Corinthians 5 verse 6, I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? So Apostle Paul is giving you a mandate, because before you take a brother to court, can you sit down and reconcile one another? Okay. Then again, he has now brought this minister of reconciliation under 1 Corinthians 5 verse 11. Reconciliation has been entrenched in the Bible. As part of the covenant of the blood of Jesus Christ, where persuasion is the key. You are trying to persuade, you are trying to intervene. Yeah. Intervening for the purposes of bringing about a settlement apart from where? Court. Maybe before Steph digs in, I remembered, maybe what are some of the accounts of events that can possibly or potentially lead to mediation? Now for a person who doesn't understand that depth of, oh, these are bipartisan talks. What are they? And then was it necessary to call for the attention of Olusigun of Basangio, now that these two warring, I don't know if you can say they were warring parties, or in other words, we can say this was a truce. Was it necessary to have his authority? And maybe you can start with, what are the some of the accounts? Thank you very much. So when you see a mediator anywhere, then it means there is a dispute. A mediator cannot come without a dispute. So the validity of this dispute is then determined from that dialogue. After the end of the dialogue, it is when now you are able to judge that there was substantive dispute, either between part A and part B. But there must be a dispute. In the case of Kenya, there was a dispute. There is a dispute. People are arguing. One side claims victory. Another one says this victory was stolen. So there is a dispute. These two groups ought to sit down and come up with their own solution. So when a mediator is there, it facilitates. The reason why a mediator should be there, you may find some factors like now, one party is not ready to sit down. Or the other party may be wanting to do. So a mediator gives a framework or an underlying structure on the events, how they are going to work step by step until the mediator is a trained expert in talks. So he can see this party and this party and he can read between the lines to help them come up with their own solution. So what is going on at the Dabomas of Kenya is very important as far as healing is concerned. Because I don't know whether you have heard about the Sigmund Frut. The Sigmund Frut came with a clinical method for treating psychopathology, whereby there is a dialogue between a patient and a clinical officer. So that conversation between the two people, it is a way of healing. Yeah, people bring their issues and another one. So you do what? You balance this interest and then at the long last, you come up with a verdict by your own selves. Okay, interesting. Wow. So now for as we close the discussion on what arbitration is, mediation and everything, you've said that it needs a professional, a certified person. But in the case of Kenya, would we say that a former president of Bacangio is an expert in mediation? Because I know he was probably chosen by the two leaders. So would we say that he's qualified? Let me say this. You know, for one to become a mediator, they have to be and they must have gone a mediation expert is training. Bacangio cannot appear in Kenya as a mediator without that. Okay. Like now Kofi and I was a mediator. You see, I can be a mediator, but I cannot announce. But when you go to the books of records, you will find my name there. Okay. Yeah, we have so many mediators and these mediators have been largely drawn from the legal sector and the clergymen. Yeah, because this is where, like now, a member of the clergy mediates so many issues around the ministry. So for them now to have that bold and that trait of sincere and steadfast fixed of purpose as far as mediation is concerned, they have to appear through a mediation training process so that they can be given skills and expertise. Okay. Okay. And now coming on to Kenya, how do you see the bipartisan stocks going? Because of late, we've not had sort of a quarrel between the two sides and it seems like the president and the Azmi Oleda are agreeing to some extent from your point of view, how do you see it going? Yeah, from my perspective, you see, we began with allocation. One side was saying this, the other side that. But now as days unfold, it's like there's that calmness, this tenderness of mind and stress. So these people, these two groups have agreed to sit down because either one group has seen my issues will be resolved and this one has also confirmed my issues will be, listen to me, whenever there's a dialogue, whenever there's communication through dialogue or conversation, there's that natural healing. So it is upon Kenyans to be patient and wait for this dialogue process to be completed and then we will be given a final settlement. And believe you me, this final settlement will be agreed upon the two. Yeah. Okay. Do you see, before I hand it over to Sakwa, do you see an event where we'd have something similar to a handshake, what we had and what the president has completely and totally said that he wouldn't agree to and he's not all about that, including the deputy president. Also, the opposition leader said he's not for the handshake. So do we see that an event where we're having something similar to the handshake, it might not be the handshake, but something quite similar to it. Yeah, something quite similar, but not that handshake between work and rail, yeah. Okay. All right, let me add you, Sakwa, if we continue. Interesting, interesting prediction. Hopefully it goes like that. Also, do you feel like, I was having a conversation with a friend discussing on the same topic and they're like, why was the process so delayed? We thought they were just going to make calls, let them meet at Bombas, Radler and president and then have talks, but then it just turned out that the president had to use this portal of, let's have this task force led by a minority leader from the other side and then majority leader from this other side and then they come together. Why was it necessary to use that format? And not just let's have the president come. Initially they had said, set up cameras, bring all TV stations and radio, let them talk and then they decide we are done. But then it has turned out, now it's like become a game. Recently we saw Ray Ludingos, it was on Friday or Saturday, he was in Kitangela saying, if they don't agree on the issues that they want, they're definitely going back to the streets again. And then we saw a deputy president regarding Gashago say, these people are after something and definitely are not going to give them a chance, they should just sit down and be quiet. It seems like these political temperatures are building up, dying, building, dying, building. Why is it not easier to just, let's make calls, sit down, talk, down? We've agreed. Yeah, now there were two ways. Number one, the president used a different approach. He wanted the national assembly to cut out this dialogue. Because under article 94, the national assembly has been given the mandate by the people of Kenya to resolve any issue pertaining to our people. It is the national assembly. So this is why the president now was advocating because we have both members, Azimio and the Kenyan ones are in the national assembly to form that bipartisan talk, to have a framework representing what the members of parliament, because parliament represents the diversity of the nation and the manifest the sovereignty of the people and exercises our sovereignty. So the president wanted it to be approached from the national assembly. On the other hand, the Honorable Reilo Odinga wanted it to be discussed outside the parliament. And now this is where now we have maybe a dialogue outside parliament. So what we maybe expect from the bombers of Kenya is maybe a hybrid whereby we have members of parliament and technocrats from outside. Yeah. Okay, interesting. And this also from the elections being part of the talks, one of the areas that the Azimio leadership proposed to talk. You know, so what I'm saying here that Zimbabwe also had recently had an election and the sitting president was given a second term, but the opposition candidate rejected the results and several raised questions about the integrity of the election. So when you talk about elections in Africa, something very common in Kenya, matters of integrity, what is the problem? Why is it that there's usually disputes on matters of elections? Now, we have those bare minimum, we call the general principles of the electoral system in any nation. So whether it is Zimbabwe or Kenya. So these general principles must reflect credibility. What people wanted to see is credibility. An election that appears to merit belief or acceptance by the people. So if it does not appear to merit belief or acceptance, then one person may become agitated or one group may become agitated and wanted to resolve these issues through an alternative dispute resolution. So like now, you have spoken about Zimbabwe. It seems like one group of the political class is dissatisfied with the elections. And so if they don't see any credibility, then they may want an alternative dispute resolution. Because they must be heard. Yeah, they must be heard. They must be heard. All right. Before I hand it over to Sakuwa again, and we have some few minutes before we close, I want us to touch on the constitutional amendment, something that has been making headlines for the past weeks. We're talking about heaths and misses, as Kenya marks 13 years of 2010 constitution as highlighted here. And activists and politicians say it is time to review Supreme Law claim. It has been adulterated. And yesterday, Palo Lumumba was speaking, saying that he's going to collect signatures all around the country, so that they get the chance to amend the constitution. And this is the fourth time that the fourth attempt of the constitution trying to be amended since it came to be. So looking at that, and some of the areas of represent, some of the areas, targeted areas include representation and evolution. And what do you think about it? Yeah, there is a provision in the constitution for amendment of the constitution. But there are those provisions which cannot be amended by a popular initiative. There are also those provisions which cannot be amended by a parliamentary initiative. So it is defined clearly under chapter 16 of the constitution. So if a Kenyan or a group of Kenyans wants some aspect of the constitution to be amended, then there is that legal process or that avenue created by the constitution. So there is no harm for us to discuss where, I mean on which aspects we need to amend. There is no harm. For this particular areas that I have mentioned, representation and evolution, is it one of the areas that can be amended? And why do you think these two areas have been highlighted? Yeah, you see now, I saw from a reporter from the conference which was finished by the devolution conference that they want some counties to be divided. So that we may increase our counties. So for me, it will advance the self-determination that is sovereign of the people. Because if we have lesser units than it means, we will be able to include ourselves in that public participation and in that management of our public affairs. So with us having more counties, I will say it is something which is sensational in parents and the training in effect. Finally, will that not increase the level of corruption? Because we've had devolution, which was introduced by the constitution, but looking at some of the reports that have been written is that it has increased corruption levels. So if we continue to increase counties, won't that increase the rate of corruption in Kenya, which is something that we have clearly not been able to deal with? So for you to increase the counties, we will increase the level of corruption. How sure are you if we do not increase the counties? We will reduce the corruption. I am not sure. I'm just looking at the situation now. You know, if you have a situation without solving a problem and then you increase the number, it will be harder to handle. That's my two cents. You see, let me help you this. Whenever you see a state office or a public office, then this is a public trust. This is a public trust. Every individual here in has that social force binding themselves for the causes of action demanded by this force. They must be having an undivided and an unbroken completeness. They must have accountability, integrity and transparency. So it's not about whether we have big institutions. It is about do we care our integrity? Do we care our qualities, positive or negative, which rend ourselves valuable and desirable while we are in the office? So it's not about that. It is about the individual and that competence and that suitability and that display. All right, let me allow Sakuya to interject before we come to a close. All right, okay. Recently we just finished celebrating 10 years of devolution. Would you say maybe some of the conversations and some of the highlights of that are probably the ones that have brought to light this conversation of the amendment of the constitution? And then also if it were to be pushed to a referendum, what are some of the authorities that would steer these conversations towards that? And you had tried to mention, Stafford highlighted the question of the story about the gender representation and the devolution. Maybe what are some of the factors that could steer towards that conversation? Yeah, number one is public participation. Participation of the people. Participation of the people is one of the national values and principles of governance. So we cannot have a process like amending of the constitution without public participation because that amendment must result from the people. So if we disorient this process from the people themselves, then it becomes bogus. For us to give it credibility, we must go through people participation. So after people have participated, then we have these other now legal frameworks where we go to the counties, where we go to the MCS, then to the national assembly. This process must appear to merit belief and acceptance as far as the legal procedure is concerned. Because if there is a flop in one of the areas, then a person may institute court proceedings at the High Court claiming that there was a denial or an infringement in some place. And then we may have the court now nullifying the process. So it must go through the legal procedures in the right way. Okay, quite interesting. We have learned quite a lot. Thank you very much, Mr. Naftali Osvungu, who is a clergy and also a mediation expert. And we've gotten to know what a mediation expert exactly does. And if you're interested, I mean, that's a career that you can definitely pursue. I'll let Saqwa close up this segment before we go on to career. All right. I've just had a question pop up in my mind. Can I train to be an arbitrator or a mediator? Is it possible? Absolutely, absolutely. It's open to anyone? Yeah. Okay. I thought Lazemore could go to law school and any LSK. You need only to have like the highest certificate of your academia. Yeah, maybe KCS, diploma, degree, whichever. All right. Yeah. And then you pay in the school fees. All right. So for example, like for somebody who's been watching, is that way they can reach out to you, maybe consult you, you have this, you have like social media, a link, a number. You can reach me through 0711, 822, 221. All right. Then on Facebook, Osvungu's Nyamungu. All right. Yeah, only Twitter, yes, Osvungu's Nyamungu. All right. Actually, I'm being told that we still have more time that we can come back and discuss one or two things. So we will definitely have Mr. Naftali come and shed some light on some other areas that have been making politics. In Kenya, we take a short break. We'll be right back.