 Back now to politics, Judith Collins and Jacinda Ardern were both squaring up to each other in last night's leaders' debate hosted by the press and National Party Leader Judith Collins is with us now. Kia ora. That's Maria. Regarding the debate last night, why did you pedal misinformation over New Zealand's border closure and Samoa? Well actually I didn't. I was very clear about what happened in Samoa that they put travel restrictions in much earlier than New Zealand and by the way we still had tourists coming into New Zealand in the third week still coming in of March so yeah no they did and closure the closures though full closure of the border came in after New Zealand in Samoa. Actually travel restrictions came in earlier and by the way they came in we started their travel restrictions in February so you know if you want to want to have a debate about it you can accept the fact that I do know about this and by the way they don't let people get on planes without having a COVID-19. The other thing though is that National were not calling for the border to be closed at the time in fact Simon Bridges called for the border to be closed here two hours before it was announced while the cabinet meeting was ongoing making that decision. Well actually Michael Woodhouse was raising these issues in parliament around border but also raising issues around what was available in terms of information about COVID-19. We did not have the information we were calling for it we actually called for it before the cabinet made the decision. National called for the border to be closed two hours before it was. Well we're not actually part of what's going on in cabinet and the fact that we did call for it earlier is clear that it was needed to be done. So the fact that you called for it two hours before it happened while the meeting was ongoing is significant is it? Well you don't think that's significant that we were calling for it before the cabinet even met? By two hours? Oh well if you want to get excited. You said it was a month. You said you said it was well beforehand in terms of questioning what was going on so actually you I think that you do need to focus on what's important. Well I think information is important and getting the facts straight is important and it would seem that you didn't have that right last night. Well I did have it right. We did ask for it earlier. We were asking questions about it. I was in parliament when I heard David Clark assure us all that all you needed to do was to wash your hands and to sneeze into your elbow and it wasn't you know such a big deal. We were asking for masks to be available. We were asking all sorts of things and you also asked for the borders or national asked for the borders to be opened to Australia and China if I remember rightly. Well you don't remember rightly we said that we Oh is that not something that the National Party called for? Well Susan are you um I just I'm sorry but you've just got the wrong information and it's very clear that you hadn't got the right information. We were very clear about saying we need to have ways forward so we can actually open our economy but not to do so in any way that's not safe and by the way Susie you know we were assured by Nassar Durn that she had all the border testing in place and it turned out that two months later. So just to be clear national were not national at no point national at no point was calling for the borders to be opened is that correct that's your stance? You you are you put out misinformation Susie. No I'm not assured us that on the 23rd of June that all border facing staff were being tested. We're not talking about testing we're talking about border opening. So you're saying that Nassar hang on a minute you're saying that national at no point called for the border to be opened. We called we believe that the testing was being not asking about testing Ms Collins. I'm asking about the border. I'm telling you Susie that national was very clear we believe the Prime Minister when she said she understood she could stop. Would you like to answer the question about the border and the opening of the border which national was calling for Susie or not? I would really like to answer a question without you interrupting every time I'm answering the question. So I'm telling you that when my when the former leader made some comments about with how we could look forward at some stage to opening the border to certain countries he was presuming that Ms Ardern was telling us the truth about the testing that was going on at the border that she knew what she was talking about seven weeks later it turned out a third of the border staff were being tested and two thirds weren't. So when we rely on her information that she put out and which I thought you would know then I think that he he was saying exactly what he thought at the time. I had not called for opening the borders I have called for a border protection agency the testing to be undertaken and by the way Susie no one should be on a plane to New Zealand without a negative COVID-19 test and it's still not being done. What is the difference between making up policy on the hoof and a leader's call? Well for instance I'm not the one making up policy on the hoof and I think that that is a derogatory term that is used by somebody who doesn't know what they're talking about. Ms Ardern in the last... Well the reason I'm asking you about this is in connection with Denise Lee and the policy that you announced regarding Auckland Council. She is the spokesperson you say that the policy had been prepared for a couple of weeks why did your local government spokesperson not even know about it? She's not the local government spokesperson she has an associate role with Auckland and I think it's very important to understand Susie as I'm sure you really do know that during campaign a campaign team the leader make decisions on issues like this. Yes but if but you said it was a prepared policy Ms Collins so if it had been prepared policy there for a couple of weeks would you not have had your local government team associate or otherwise as part of that as part of preparing that policy? No I've made that decision the policy was decided and was ready to go on the 23rd of September I chose to hold that back for the appropriate time and that's why I released it and Susie sometimes that's what leaders do and that's you know I'm not someone who leads by a committee I can make decisions and I deal with them and Ms Lee has already acknowledged that she was wrong and what she did and she was also acknowledged that that is my call that is called leadership. Ms Ardern has had to do that on several occasions I do that and I'm not someone who is shy of making decisions I'm happy to make decisions and I live with those decisions that's called leadership Susie. When was the last time you shared polling numbers with your caucus? Would that be a matter for me in caucus it's not a matter that I share on rally New Zealand I'm not asking for the numbers I'm asking for the last time that you shared the polling numbers. Well that's a matter for me in caucus not for you Susie. Is it fair to say that you have not shared polling numbers with the caucus? It's fair to say Susie it's actually not your business. Why is it not my business? Because you're not in caucus when you're a member of caucus I'll talk to you about it but I've got a feeling you're not going to be a member of the National Caucus for a while. No I'm interested though in how much you're keeping your MPs in the loop about the situation as you would understand it. Ten days out from an election. As I've said Susie it's not a matter for you it's a matter for the caucus and me and I'm very happy with what I'm doing and I would say I've been all over the country with my caucus colleagues and they are very happy too just because somebody has made a mistake and that has been exploited I'm sorry for her because she's now got a very difficult position but Susie what happens in caucus stays in caucus and it's not shared on with you in on rally New Zealand. Talk to me about the photo of the weekend of you praying. Why? Oh I thought it was an interesting one. Why would you find that interesting? I've been a Christian all my life I don't actually shy away from that. I didn't ask media to come into the chapel when the priest had said to me Judith would you like to have a quick prayer? It's not he's not a priest that I know I've never met before. Frankly Susie I find it deeply offensive that someone can pray in their own religion as long as it's not Christianity and I actually find that deeply offensive I'm happy to go. Sorry I'm sorry what is deeply offensive about this? You're making it a big deal and you think it's a big deal. No I'm not making it a big deal from that perspective I just know that everything during an election campaign you will know is likely to be captured on video or by audio or by a photography and so therefore everything is essentially up for grabs or calculated I'm just interested in why you chose to pray publicly. I didn't choose to pray publicly I was in the chapel by myself and media started coming into the chapel while I was praying. I thought that that was a private moment. Well a chapel is not a private place though Miss Collins. Well it is I was the only one in there until the media came in and actually it's a chapel Susie. Yes but that's not a private place. Was this virtue signalling Miss Collins? It may not be a private place to you but it is to me. I'm sorry Susie I think we obviously don't pray the same way. If it wasn't virtue signalling was it signalling to the evangelical right wing of your caucus? No what it was doing is I was talking I was praying Susie that's what you do when you go into a chapel by yourself and you believe that you are all on your own and the door is shut you do actually do that you know that's quite normal. How confident are you going into the last spot 10 days last week of the campaign? Do you know I'm totally re-energised and I must say talking to you every every week Susie is just one of the things that keeps me going so that I can every day go out there and sell a vision for New Zealand that is not a negative frightened vision but a vision of hope and aspiration and that's what I love to do. Oh that's great I'm so glad you love coming on your new report. Fantastic. Oh well that's wonderful Judith Collins National Party Leader