 Howdy folks, President Johnson here, President Dream, Founder of 21 Studios and the 21 Convention and the 22 Convention and co-founder of the Redman Group here today with the presidential interview for Pat Stubman. He's been a former guest on the Redman Group a couple of times as well as an alumni speaker now at the 21 Convention. Oh, sorry, my own audio on. It's like hearing myself talk. All right, number fixed. So I'm here with Pat Stubman today, former speaker of the convention recently in Orlando, Florida. He'll be speaking as well this year at a couple of events for the first one at the 22 Convention, for example, for women. Pat, though, you can find at patstubman.com. He is a dating or relationship coach and, in my opinion, one of the best in the world. And as I said recently on Twitter, I think the dating industry is filled with a lot of bullshit, has been for a long time. Pat is a voracious truth seeker and he's very determined to do that. And it's been interesting to get to know him over the past couple of months for various reasons. He was walled off from my world for a long time by people around me, you know? And we fixed it up a few months ago and it's been awesome getting to know him and have met the event and stuff. Everybody loved him. So without further ado, we're gonna assume some questions today. I got for Pat. And one of the things too I want to talk about, we'll get into it later in the show, is that Pat Stubman launched a Pat Stubman masterclass. It's I think one of his first courses and here are really good things about it. We'll talk about it later. But before we get into that like 40 minutes from now, let's actually talk about, first of all, you actually knew Nick Sparks, one of our, basically our biggest speaker of all time in terms of view count on the channel. He spoke with the 21 convention beginning in 2009 and he spoke as late as 2016 in Miami, Florida. So what is the relationship with Nick Sparks for the guys who followed him and knew him in his content? Well, I would consider Nick to be my first real mentor in this world. I mean, I had been like, you know, you can have virtual mentors, so to speak, like when I got involved in pickup and dating self-improvement stuff back in 2008, David D'Angelo, et cetera, his man transformation series was a pretty big thing for me. But even as in the first couple of years as I was improving with women, I was learning some of the basic concepts, I had a real, like I was still having a hard time being consistent with converting and it felt like it was a lot of effort. And I did a bootcamp with Nick and that was, I mean, that was a massive game changer for me. But- And that was probably when he was at the social man, right? Correct, yeah. Christian, I mean, I met Christian, I really liked the guy a lot. I was at one of his live seminars where I believe the 10 code, I don't know if he ended up releasing that or not. I know you're talking about, I think he might've, yeah. And he spoke with the convention too in 2009, Christian. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But literally, like even before the bootcamp, just a single phone call with Nick cleared up a massive problem I had. So a problem that I see like, tons and tons of pickup guys still get into, which is the tendency to be like an entertainer versus being able to lean back and hold space, right? Hold space, I mean, the whole term is a Nick Sparks term. So he has a real knack, especially in the field of taking guys out and helping me to connect authentically with women. But one of the really big things about like my relationship with Nick was that after the bootcamp, I got put into his Facebook group at the time, which was basically like client only group. And that was really where I got my start. I pretty much became, I think at a certain point, I mean, I was commenting there, I was coaching more than Nick was in that group. And so when I went and left my corporate job, that was the guys in the group were the ones who actually encouraged me to become a coach. Nice. Well, let's back up a step here. When did you actually find the pickup artist community or the manager for that matter? Couple of years before you met Nick? Yeah, so I discovered the game like in 2008. Okay. Yeah. And I didn't work with Nick until summer of, till like August, 2011. Oh, wow. So he had spoken to the convention like three times by that point. Yeah. Yeah. But I was a follower of him. So when I did do it, when I finally decided, it was after my second girlfriend and I was getting back into it. And I was like, you know what? I want to make sure I really do this right this time around not kind of half-assed it. And so it was automatic to do it with Nick. Were you familiar too with Nick speaking at the convention during those years? Were you following his speeches and stuff? Yeah, yeah. I watched his stuff. I mean, how to hold a conversation like a man. Yeah. Yeah. That's actually, I'll put a link to that in the description probably. It's the most famous speech ever given at the convention. Nick, it's reached over 2 million views now, well over 2 million. Yeah. And it continues to climb. And I think that one of the great things about Nick's work is that actually like it's so profound, but it's just simple. You know, he doesn't, he didn't make everything super, super complicated. He really distilled it down to the essence of human communication, male-female communication. Yeah. I think even the titles that he gave us for some of the talks, some of those we cooked up. And then sometimes I've worked with Nick on them. But how to hold a conversation like a man. I'm pretty sure that was 100% Nick. And when he told it to me immediately, I was like, oh yeah, that's a dope title. Yeah. It's powerful, but it's simple. It's like Apple kind of like Steve Jobs, Apple kind of stuff. It's very simple, but people get it. And they watch it and they love it and they learn from it. I actually introduced him in that. Back then I was not always the MC. I usually had Steve Mehta MCing, introducing speakers. And at the beginning of that talk, I'm actually, I just had knee surgery. So I had this fucking goofy ass came from Goodwell and Scali to tell me what it was based on. And people wonder why I have a cane. Like is this like his Pimpcane? And I'm like, no, I just had fucking knee surgery. So that's cool. I like Nick a lot. He's not a huge fan of the red pill stuff. So he's kind of like, he's been kind of on hiatus from the convention since that went down in 2016. But yeah, I still love his work, man. We still, I think we need to put out, we still have one talk of this to put out from 2016 actually, at the under 21 convention. Yeah. I'm glad to know about your history, man. It's pretty cool. And in hearing too that you were just a fan of Nick's and student and then go the process you went through, that's pretty, that's pretty dope. I know a few of the speakers have done that stuff, that kind of stuff too. Yeah, it's been like a really natural arc. And I think that, you know, I like, like Nick was really good for my foundational stuff, my foundational work, but we definitely have gone in different directions since, but I mean, but his grounding with authenticity was really important in the, especially like in the beginning of the pickup world where there was so little of that to be found. So I think the social man in general did a good job with not being too scummy in the beginning. I agree. Another actually still talk to some other guys from there too. Christian, I haven't talked in a while, but Francis Adams, I'll talk to her once in a while. Yeah. Here's another question though. Yeah, I don't know much. What do you think about Zan Parion? Cause I know that Nick was inspired a lot by Zan. So you're almost like this grand child student of Zan Parion in a way. That's really interesting. I know of Zan Parion. I don't know anything about work to be honest. He's good. So I'll definitely have to check it out cause I'm sure I'll see a lot of the connections. Yeah, when Nick met, I think Nick met Zan Parion for the first time at the convention in 2016, they spoke together and Nick was just like super, he was super excited and like starry eyed basically. Like that was his idol, his mentor. Oh, really? And I wasn't actually that familiar with Zan at that point. A couple of guys have been pushing me to get him to speak for years, but the minute I met him, I liked him a lot. He just oozed like kind of like Goldman, like a love of women and like absolutely like amazing game. That was like very positive and you could feel it. He wasn't just, it wasn't just he was saying that kind of stuff on stage. You could just feel it talking to him and then talking to women and stuff too. It made a difference like actually liking women. Yeah. Yeah. Those things that unfortunately a lot of guys in this sort of broader community, not only don't teach, but they might teach the opposite of it. Well, actually the first time I ever heard that question, well, here's a, let's get into this a little bit. So the first time I ever heard the distinction proposed between loving women and liking women was from a psychotherapist, Nathaniel Brandon. He was famous for being a iron rands lover, the novelist and philosopher who wrote Atlas Shrugged. Yeah. And it was interesting, cause obviously I was reading this, you know, in the manuscripts is like probably 2011. I first read this idea. So the difference between liking women and loving women. So do you see a big distinction between those two things? And have you seen that question posed anywhere else in the manuscript? Or do you have thoughts on that? Well, I don't know if I've seen it posed before. And to preface it too, like we both know that like so many guys with virtue signal and let's say, oh, I love women. Of course I love women. It's like, first of all, like I'm kind of skeptical if you really do or not. And what does that mean even if you do? But second, do you even like women? Which I think is a very different thing. Yeah. Well, every straight guy is gonna have his desire to be with women. And if he doesn't explore it, that desire can become a need. It can become the basis of the pedestal. But a lot of people who have, you know, if you have that need, but women aren't giving you what you want, then that can become a resentment thing. So you don't like women, but yet you still need them. And I think that you see that with certain corners of the hemisphere where, I mean, and it's in the sub-communications obvious because if you're fixated on what women aren't gonna give you on a regular basis, well, it's, you know, it's... I wonder what you could be talking about. Yeah. It's like, if you don't like, my perspective is if you don't care about women, then why are you like, why are you talking about it? Yeah. They're not very honest with themselves about their own, their own desire. We'd probably see examples of that in parts of the Red Pill community and as well at McTow, it's a little more explicit. And McTow is complicated because there's like different levels of it. But that's part of what you're talking about, right? Yeah. They're like, go my way. I'm never talking to women again, but they still talk about them, you know, 24 hours a day. Yeah. It's not convincing anyone. It just looks very pathetic, but they end up falling for it. Well, it usually has pathetic. Yeah, that's great. I mean, they just, and they just draw to them other guys who are fundamentally dishonest with themselves and feel weak, right? And so it's just a bunch of people who are weak. We can deselect it and they complain together and, you know. Yeah, so talk to me about how liking women actually, separate from loving women, like actually liking women. I mean, I'll tell you one thing, like Goldman today was tweeting about dating in New York City and how that basically collapsed. Yeah. 2008 to when he left, I actually saw him right in his apartment before he left. I went to go visit him. And I've no doubt about what he's saying. That makes perfect sense to me. I've seen a version of that in Orlando and in Florida. And honestly, it's demoralizing. Like you see more, you know, really rampant or radical shit with like the Me Too stuff and like all this crap going on politics in the workplace. But even as in terms of Tinder and going to bars and picking up women, like this shit has fallen off a cliff. And it wasn't until last year that, and that made me in a sense, you know, I didn't like women as much as this was happening because I saw them becoming less feminine, whether or not I articulated it that way at the time. And that's not, that doesn't make me feel good. I don't like seeing that. The semi women don't like seeing effeminate men. It doesn't make them happy. It makes them fucking miserable. But going to Poland last year, I spent a month there between two trips for the convention. And that really revitalized for me, loving women and liking women. In particular, the liking because they were so feminine compared to what I was used to in America. Overweight kind of manly, you know, the toxic masculinity crap. I mean, it's a fucking, it's night and day, you know, between Orlando and a place like Warsaw, Poland. So talk to me, wait, I don't know where I was going with that. I had somewhere I was going, yeah, liking women. Yeah, yeah. So, okay. This is gonna be maybe, like I wanna, I'm gonna hit this from a little bit of a different angle. I'm losing my train of thought here. So when, what we don't like as guys is the way that women have been behaving a lot today, right? With feminism, et cetera, hardcore feminism, all this stuff has been really distorting the nature of women. And it's been unappealing for us. So the tendency when women are not kind of behaving in a way that's attractive or giving us what we want is to have this negative orientation towards them. But one of the key tenants of the red pill sort of, you know, theory, right? Is that women follow men. And so one of the things that I've seen in the community, which I think is actually a logical discrepancy, is that guys are complaining about how women are behaving and it's true. And there is a place for calling out bad female behavior 100%. I'm wearing it. Yeah, 100%. But we also have to understand that women are really, really fed up as well with what's going on. They're not happy. And if you talk to women, doesn't matter what sort of like boilerplate bullshit they put out, like, oh, I'm a feminist, whatever. They don't, they actually don't really like feminism. And I think that's what's really interesting is if you have started to pay attention to Red Scare podcast, like I was in a cafe the other day two very, very hot girls were there. They were talking, they were like in like 21, 22, basically. What is Red Scare podcast? That's like an iTunes thing or on YouTube or something? I have never watched it. It's, I'm gonna pronounce her last name wrong. Anna Kaczkan or whatever. But basically these are like Bernie loving, you know, socialists, et cetera. But it's called like Bimbo Socialism, a lot of them. It's like, this is really interesting. I think it's really interesting development. I haven't heard of that, but I love that Bimbo. I've heard of like limousine socialism or whatever. No, and this is what they're calling it. I'm not like even giving them this. Oh yeah, that's funny as shit. These women hate feminism. And what they basically want to do is they want their socialists, but they want to deconstruct everything with feminism and going back to traditional roles. So like they're the traditional socialists, right? So there's actually like, you know, if you're familiar with frog Twitter, et cetera, they actually have like a bit of a communication between each other. Like, you know, they believe different things, but they kind of believe a lot of the same things too. So this is a development that's happening because women, and if you talk to a Goldman, you talk to women, I talk to women. They are not happy with the state of affairs. And they're very open to things shifting. So I get very, you know, I think it's very tedious and boring when you have guys who are complaining about all this stuff about women. It's like, well, you have the power to change the female behavior when you raise your value. And this is actually one of the fundamental disagreements that I had with certain figures because it's like, well, there's no reason for us to be complaining about this. You can just call Voldemort in this episode if you want. Yeah, yeah. We can change things, right? So part of that is, part of leading is calling out bad behavior and calling out things that are attractive. It's not settling for it, right? And that would be, that's basically maintaining boundaries or setting boundaries and maintaining boundaries. I think it's a lot with the 22 convention. I mean, it's obviously controversial. But you know, I'll tell you, Anthony, I've been following the press on it and I don't feel like the outrage is real. Yeah. It feels to me like it's play acting. Like we're supposed to attack this. Oh, how could he possibly say this? But everybody at the same time, it's like a little tongue in cheek. And I think it was two years ago, totally different response. So I think that's a very astute observation and I know what you mean. We could articulate it in different ways, but I get what you're saying. The outrage is not as real as it seems. A lot of the women I think are actually, psychologically or in other ways turned on by it. It's fascinating to them that men would even do this. And shocking and other things too. Yes. But it is the start of men basically reasserting the new dynamics in male-female interaction. Yep. Which fixes everything. Because at the end of the day, and you see this all the time, the guys who don't give a shit about women, they just raise their value and they go after stuff, women go to them. And so you don't chase the women. They will adjust to you if your frame is strong enough. So going back to liking women, well, why would you have any reason not to dislike? Like, female nature is a beautiful thing. Like, there's no reason as a man, if you don't like women, then there's something much, much deeper, like wrong with you. There's a lot of need and issues that you haven't addressed. If you don't like the way women are treating you, you just have to have a better frame and better boundaries because they'll adjust. They'll adjust with it. Well, I think that's what we're doing with 22 Convention. Like, there was a blogger who, at secularpatriarchy.wordpress.com, I forget his name, but he follows a lot of the manifesto and he actually documents the history of it and kind of organizes it really well. And he made a point about, you know, make women great again in the convention we're doing, that it's, like you're saying, it's reasserting masculinity and boundaries and what men want and prefer. And, you know, at an individual level through speakers and for the attendees, but he also made the point, I hadn't quite, like it made sense immediately to me when I read it, but I hadn't quite put it in those words. So he said that this is the first time in like recent American history that men are being socially publicly dominant at this scale. And we're reasserting boundaries basically between gender relations. And that's why I think it's reached almost 100 million people now, which is fucking wild. Like, holy shit. Yeah. So I think you're hitting the nail on the head that, you know, women will respond to that on an individual level in social settings and your environment. But we're doing that now at its massive scale and it's exciting. It's a lot of fun. It wasn't really the, I guess it was the intention, but I hadn't, I mean, for me it was, you know, I'm doing what I do. I put on conventions and I have speakers and we have fun and we educate people and we create speeches. But now it's just like, it's done all this other stuff too, which is amazing. Yeah. I would say that it really gets to the essence of the dynamic between men and women because the role of man is to basically speak the truth in the relationship and to guide the relationship to a better dynamic, right? Even if that includes incurring the wrath of a woman in the short term. Yeah. I mean, it's just like, it's just like trying to go out in nature. I mean, nature isn't going to bow to you if you're trying to establish a civilization. It's the same example. Yeah, I thought Malini was really, really on point. When he closed his speech at the convention, his title for it was like what men want to say to women. Well, my interpretation of the speech, and I titled it on our channel, and he was cool with it, was how to make women great again, his speech at the convention, because the way he closed it, which was, it was basically, I'm going to paraphrase it, but you know, if we want women to do better, we have to tell them the truth. We have to have the courage to do that. Like a really deep, like powerful truth that's going to honestly outrage and piss off a lot of them. They're probably in the short term, right? At least in the short term. But I really, I agree with what you're saying. I believe that. It's the man's job to speak that truth, including when it invites, you know, wrath and all these other things. But that's how you make women, that's how you make women great again. You tell them the truth. Yeah, hey, that's it. And telling them from a position of love, right? Like I actually care about, like I think it's really terrible what's been happening to women. Like I have an enormous amount of compassion and empathy for them. It is a terrible dating market. They've been manipulated. And I mean, there's a reason that 20, we can like be like, 25% of women are on like anti-depressants and anti-ings. Like that's sad. That's really terrible. Yep. Yeah, and the single motherhood rates and these broken families and all this shit. I mean, they've been, I was posted on Facebook yesterday and you know, it set off a little bit of a slight outrage but you know, all these women basically pissed away their 20s because of feminism. They relied to, they were told to delay motherhood, which means de-prioritize it, make it second, low priority, goof around on Tinder, get fucked, you know, get fucked and all this other stuff, which is exciting and fun in like temporary little bits but it leads to a lifetime of like cat hair and misery. And it's easy to make fun of, but then it's also like, damn, that sucks. Like that's really horrible and that's not good for anyone. Yeah, I mean, I see it in New York all the time. I have a lot of female friends in New York, a lot of them over 30 and it's rough. Like I have a lot, like I don't think it's, I don't think it's a good thing. I don't think that we should just be, and I know like, you know, there's aspects that cared in the stick but like we have to really remember that a lot of these women were just doing what they were told to do, they were, and we have to do our part to try to, you know, help other women to learn from their mistakes. Yeah, yeah, they were lied to just like men. I mean, it's not, you see that rarely but you do see it in the red pill community that women are lied to as well. Feminism is essentially, at least for women, like their blue pill in a nutshell and it really fucks your life up the same way but it's kind of the same idea as fuck a man's life up. You know, apologizing for masculinity and on and on down the list and just being a little effeminate beta bitch. Yeah. That's just a lifetime of misery, the same way being a cat lady is a lifetime of misery. Yeah, it's not like a feminine conspiracy. The conspiracy is dividing the genders. Yeah. For each other. Yeah, it's a gender relation. Like I've said, and Poland really brought this to my attention too, but gender relations I think in the West are collapsing at this point. And things like me too and toxic masculinity and the hashtags are just expressions of that. They're not, they're not the main problem. They're big, they're a big problem in the short term but they're just symptoms of like deeper currents that have been running for a long time. And Poland doesn't have that in my opinion by long shot. No. Their gender relations, you know, as you would say with race relations, their gender relations are very positive and you could feel that it's walking around. It was amazing. It probably goes into movie walking around there like some, I don't know what kind of movie it would be but it was just awesome. Like everywhere you went, girls acted like girls and they expected you to feel it act like a man. And it was just fucking dope. Like I had so much fun as walking around drinking coffee and shit and meeting women and driving scooters and all kinds of goofy shit. Yeah, I mean, one of the reasons I love the country, I mean, I'm moving there in a year. It's just sane. I mean, people, and I think part of it, part of the reason is because in Europe in general was under so much propaganda for a long period of time that population is very soberheaded with it. They don't, they just kind of are like, what are you, and this spans the spectrum. They also have healthy politics there, like people who disagree even about, everyone has political disagreements no matter what country you go to. But there's the sense there that people are living in the same reality. Yeah, as opposed to living in different realities like Scott Adams might talk about, like different movie screens are the same thing. Yes, yes. That makes sense. Yeah, I think too that, I mean, one of the things I saw with the Manusphere guys I met there from Poland, the few that came to the event from Poland, most guys came to the event from other countries, Netherlands, Britain, stuff like that. But they seem actually, they have a little bit of feminism, you know, activism in Poland. It's very minor compared to what we have in America. But even with like a little bit they have, they're like on edge about it. And I think that's really cool. I mean, some people might say they're paranoid, but I don't think so. They see how it's affected America in the West even though they love America. And they're on guard. They're playing like preemptive defense or like, yo, fuck this shit, like get out. And I love that. It's like smart forward, you know, future thinking basically. They think that they're planning ahead. Yeah, and I think that they're prepared to create their own barriers and the protection if necessary. But I don't think it is gonna be necessary. I think that, you know, and I think in part due to countries like Poland presenting this sort of sober reality that maybe we've forgotten existed. But I really think that we're at like the near. Like I think that we're at the bottom pretty much and everything up from here is getting better. I just feel it's like the winds sort of the blow a different direction. And so people are like, well, you know, we're not, we're not there yet. It's like, well, of course we're not there yet. It's gonna take years to build it. But the narrative has already changed. You can feel, and this is the connected thing about like the play acting outrage. They don't believe their own bullshit anymore. But they just yell it louder because they need to feel like the louder they get, the more it helps to convince them. And that is what people are like right before they break. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That reminds me of the woman in the car, the single mom or no, she had a husband, I think, but the crazy mom in the car that was yelling about make woman great again. I don't know if you saw that. I didn't see it, no. Oh, it's amazing. Oh, I'll send you the video. It's fine. Yeah, Molly knew did a responsive video to it on our channel and his channel too. We put out, but I'll send you the link of the full video thing too. It's only four minutes long, short, but she has two and a half million followers on Facebook and she does video blogs and stuff all the time as well as the written ones too, which are really disturbing actually. Molly knew went through those. I hadn't seen those very abusive yelling at her husband. We're talking like she would send her husband like 20 texts in a row to screaming at him. She was like abusive to her kids. She would take their toys and like rip the arms off and shit. And she was comparing her kids to hemorrhoids and shit like that. It's really bizarre shit. I don't have a channel doing this. Yeah, two and a half million on Facebook. Yeah. So she did a response video. I mean, look, it's a whole fucking shit show. I'll send you the thing. It's amazing. It's one of the best, I mean, in a very tragic way. It's one of the best videos I've seen in response to make women great again because she's the exact kind of woman that needs a ticket but she'll never buy one. Right. But she will watch the videos. We'll get her that way. I mean, these kind of people are a gift though because they're just so insane. If you could present a contrast to the regular person, it's just like... Well, so what she did though is she did like a little short four minute video in her minivan or something. You can even see like the Spider-Man car seat in the back. And she's like just screaming about it for screaming to yelling about it on and off for a little bit over four minutes. And you can hear, you can first of all, she's using the words, it's attacking all of it, right? You can also just feel like the vitriol but she's also like winding herself up like you're saying. And at one point she's like, you know, how are they gonna make women great again? The man! And her voice is just, you can feel it like this opera kind of singing thing. And then she even drops some like anime meme shit. She's like, let me check my heart rate. She's like, oh yeah, it's over 9,000. And I'm like, does she watch Dragon Ball Z? Like what the fuck do you expect? This woman's like gotta be in her late 30s or 40s or something. Yeah. But yeah, it just reminds me of what you were talking about. And I'll send it to you and you'll be like, holy shit. Yeah, it's easily one of the funniest ones that we've had. But it reminds me again of the outrage where it's like she's play acting almost. Like she probably is pretty perturbed by this but on a deeper level, she's probably like, she's very curious about it which is why she's even doing the video. Well, the thing is if you don't like it, this is actually, I think this point gets to the real heart of it. If you don't like it, don't go to it, you know? Don't watch it. Like it doesn't matter, right? It shouldn't matter. There's an enormous amount of stuff that goes out right now that I find like I would never want to watch it but I'm not like cut it down. But if this event creates such like a deep response in these women, it's because, I mean, that is projection. That's- You're stuck a nerve, you're stuck a nerve for sure. Yeah, exactly. It's a sign that this is exactly what they are most, like they most desperately need but they attack it and it's a root cause of some of their problems because otherwise like a sane person would be like LOL or whatever, like I'm not gonna go to that. It's fine. They're not gonna be like freaking out, you know? That was John Fitch, the MMA fighter who attended the event as an attendee. He actually did a response video, not to videos but to the articles that have been coming out. Obviously there's been dozens of attack news pieces at this point and that was really his main point and it was like a 20 minute video he did, recurring theme, like why don't these people just chill out? Like leave it alone, you don't like it, don't go to it, don't watch it. You know, it's only women going. So if you're gonna protest it, you're literally protesting women going, so it's infighting between women. So, but yeah, it's a really good point. Any mature adult would just basically ignore it unless it's like super extreme, like let's round people up and put people on gulags, like Bernie Bros, that's a little bit where I think you need to be like, yo, I'm not okay with that. But short of like violently throwing people in gulags, I think you need to leave stuff alone and that's a mature adult response and an American response, I think too. Yeah, very much so. I mean, and they don't even know what everyone's gonna say, you know? Like, it's like, it's just, I mean, obviously they know that we're against feminism and the current movement today, but I mean, I have a suspicion that a lot of this stuff is not gonna be particularly crazy that people are talking about at this event. And a lot of it, I mean, feminism in my opinion is like a really core root concept and movement that has done a lot of damage to women and men and gender relations. And that's why I was very critical of it on the page, but a lot of talks won't even bring this up. Some of them will just be like fitness talks and health talks. Yeah. And they won't even have like almost anything to do with feminism or not. Martin's not gonna have anything to do with it. Yeah, exactly, yeah. And that's why the tagline of the convention is not abolish feminism. Oh, I think that's wonderful and that's my goal. The tagline of the convention is make women great again. And in this case, you should judge a book by its cover. I think it's a very positive thing and a good thing. And the convention tagline, like people keep asking me, what does it mean? What does it mean? I'm like, it means what it fucking says. Yeah. Like I think women were greater than they are now in the past and we should make them great again. And then on top of that, make them the greatest they've ever been if that's what they wanna do. And obviously they do because they're paying for it. Yeah, because I mean, I think a lot of women, the word feminism has so many different connotations to women, but I think that the connotation that we certainly have, it means the supremacist movement really. But the irony about it is that it actually, it tells women to disavow their nature and they try to become more like men. And that's the source of the depolarization. Of course, in order to achieve that depolarization, men have to then become feminine. And it's obviously- And when they're pushing back inside of the hemisphere, as I see it. Exactly. And so at the very least, it's to me, it's like, well, and I think a lot of people are actually, like I've talked about this to a couple of girls in New York, the 22 convention. And the first response is a little like, oh, but they're actually like, they're pretty curious about it because they know things aren't working. They actually know things aren't working anymore. And having some more bullshit advice from some very angry, unhinged person, right? And in many events, screaming at you. Yeah, they're just kind of over all of this. And what they would really like is to actually be able to find a guy because they're sick and tired of going out on dates over and over again and having them not go anywhere. They like the idea, like they love the idea of the hemisphere. Even if like, when you get to some details, they might be a little bit shocked by it. But because they see how men are changing, who have gone through this community, eventually it starts to persuade with the ideas. And moreover, it just doesn't matter anyway. You don't have to, sometimes a woman will like disagree with what you're saying, but in practice, she agrees. Yeah. Because. Yeah, that's actions over words. I mean, watch what she does. Yeah, which is why you don't argue about it with it. Yeah, I think another thing too, 22 convention to make women great again. I've only seen Mike Cernabes talk about this in public, but it's been on my mind too for a long time is that the women don't have a man-sphere equivalent right now. There's nothing like that. There is no feminist fear. There's no woman's fear. There's nothing. It is a feminism. And then they have whatever other miscellaneous tidbits they can find in culture, which is sad and they need that. And that's, that's actually what I'm trying to do is build a woman's fear, so to speak or feminist fear for them. That's like really positive and strong and says feminism is super gay. Okay. Anthony, you need to talk to, you should reach out to Anna Kaczkian or whatever, because that's, I actually think that's what she's doing in her own way. I think that you got a really interesting conversation. Yeah, cause there are like, you know, we're doing it from a masculine perspective, literally all men mansplaining, but there's a lot of women that have our content creators too, but they're not connected like the man-sphere is. The man-sphere has been operating since at least the 90s with the pickup artists community and the men's rights guys disconnected as they were as groups, but it's all kind of the same, to me it's very similar. They're looking at men's issues basically. For women, they've had nothing positive like that. And I think they need that. And yeah, I love to talk to her for sure. I'm actually planning to do, people don't realize this, like I want to do, after this first one we do 22 convention, next year, I probably just want to do an all-womens one and call it the 22 convention pink edition, like we have the patriarch edition and that'll be the woman-splaining event of the century. It's gonna be all-womens planning for women, to women. Yeah. That's gonna be, that's gonna be wonderful. I'm excited for that. So yeah, that'll be part of like building this, you know, bigger and bigger media library that we can put out to the world for free and then reach all these young girls and older women too, that need this content. I'm really excited for the young girls too. We had this, there was this comedian that came after us, Curtis Connor. And it looks like his audience, he has two million followers on YouTube and the video has got 1.5 million views so far in like a week. And that's a crazy engagement rate, like holy shit. And I didn't realize this, but it looks like his most of his audience is like young girls, like 1920. Like he's based at a high school kind of girls. So that's the exact audience I wanna hit. So I was like really excited to see that. It was just an attack video, but who fucking cares? Yeah, yeah. This guy put me on the radar in our convention on the radar for these young women, which is the exact woman we need to reach most, at least in terms of priority. If women are like 40, it's like hard to turn your life around. Like you, you still can do a lot better in your life than you should, but you're well past, you picked infertility at like 18 years ago at that point. Right, right. So, we got some questions from the audience here we could take before I hop into more of my own. Let's do it. Cool. Miguel Angel Castellas, yeah. How do you see an environment changing between Poland versus Switzerland? Do you have any thoughts on European nations like that? Well, when he says environment changing between Poland versus Switzerland, I'm not sure exactly what do you mean, what do you think he means by that Anthony? Well, let's see, he's got some more comments here too. Pat, with Poland behaving or I would say promoting essentially opposite paradigm and some of those gender equality promoting nations in Switzerland. Okay, so basically what's going to, how are they gonna diverge over time? So. Yeah, because for the guys that don't know any better are not interested or don't know as much about Europe. Like Poland's pretty unique in what it does. There's some nations like it like Hungary, I think, Romania, other Eastern European nations. Eastern European nations. So here's an, okay, this is, I can riff off some interesting things here. Okay. There's a lot of deeper cultural aspects here that I think affect how nations behave. Scandinavian, German, Germanic nations have actually always had very much of an egalitarian tradition. It goes all the way back to the Vikings really with the tribes there. There was, I mean, obviously not egalitarian the way you think of it today. People always had separate domains. You know, there were shield maidens, et cetera, in the Vikings, it's documented. It's not as big of a thing as they put on the Vikings television show, of course. I'm not even sure, shield mating? What is this? Shield maidens. Basically they were women who would fight. Oh. Yeah, it's even a Norse lore. I don't know the names. I'm not, I wouldn't particularly. Oh, I remember a feminist thing. They were going nuts. They found like remains of a female Viking or something like that. Exactly, exactly. And if you look throughout just the history of those nations, there's always been much more of a burden sharing between the more of an egalitarian nature between those cultures. Now in Eastern Europe, so just to finish that thought, do I see it, I think that some things that have always been there, but were much more benign because there's always been men and women doing different roles. There may have been not quite like the same level of extremity in terms of like guys are gonna dominate everything in one area, but it's always been there. So I think that a lot of that has been preyed on by a more perverse version of sort of modern feminism, which is not really at all. I mean, it's more of an inversion than just a difference within the spectrum. Would you say it's like a hyper egalitarianism or hyper equalism? Because sometimes that's how I'd be feminism because it's the destruction of masculinity and femininity, the depolarization. We're just trying to turn everyone into these generalist kind of like moist robots, which is super retarded and everyone's miserable, nothing works. Yeah, I think that part of it is also because the people in those nations are generally much more reserved that the individuals are. And so you see this in Britain and Scandinavia like to an extreme extent where people like don't really talk to each other much and then they get based and they just hook up, right? Yeah, I saw that in Sweden. We did the convention there in 2010 and I spent about over a month in Sweden and I was amazed that a quiet people were in public. You saw them trains and subways and shit and I would talk to a girl in public and like it was this huge fucking deal. Like the whole fucking subway would look at me doing it. Okay, how's it going? And just for me, it was very normal. Just a day game approach. And the girl you could even tell she was like, holy shit. I'm like, oh, like, you know, whatever, like it's cool. I think there's an enormous amount of repression of the roles in general, like on the surface. And so it makes it easy for the ideologies to kind of bear fruit because of all the sort of social repression between men and women as it exists. Got it. Now Eastern Europe is really interesting to me because I'm gonna specifically compare Eastern Europe to Britain America. Eastern Europe, as we can see today has very strong polarity between the sexes and men and women, men are masculine, women are feminine. But what's really interesting about these countries is they've actually like, they have actually lived out egalitarianism in the form of communism where women would actually have to go work and everybody like Comrade, you would do this. Everybody would do, would work and do the same thing in society. I've heard this about Russia too. They went through all this crap and that's why, yeah, that's leading to what you're saying. What's really interesting about the women in these places is that the women are everything that a feminist would sensibly want. They're independent, they are educated, highly educated. They're very often self-sufficient and yet they're very, very comfortable being feminine and they're very, very comfortable having a man take these different roles. They have nothing to prove. They are able to do all this stuff and yet they don't, they choose not to, which is a very healthy, I'm not trying to over glorify them, Slavic girls have a dark underbelly. But. Now I get it. There's no animosity there is what you're saying. And that's what I felt in Poland. It wasn't just positive relationships. It was a lack of animosity for being masculine and being a man and like just living your fucking life. And that's taken off in America, unfortunately. The women are legitimately strong independent women. I mean, you had in World War II like an enormous number of Russian women would serve you on the front lines. They had to, right, during this. So, but there's no delusions about, the women prefer not to do some of this stuff. So they, but they can. Now you contrast this to America and Britain and you have a class of women that has been, with the exception of the working class which is always very much more both people playing a role, which is why you don't, by the way, you don't see as much feminism from the working class because again, like in the Slavic nations, they actually know what it's like to be in rough situations and having to carry stuff. It's very much a, it's very much an aspect of very, very wealthy pampered women who have in my perspective, a very undeveloped sense of self and were kind of birds in a cage. And so they were drawn very, very much to this, this sort of, this ideology, which was like, now I'm going to be strong and now I'm going to be independent. But obviously- I don't need no, I don't need no man. Who needs a man? I can just do fucking everything, fucking everything. But they never went through the actual process of having to really do it. And so it's this, it's basically like, I mean, people have talked about feminism as being this like massive shit test. And it kind of is a massive shit test. It's like a, it's like whining from women who have never had to actually really, you know, develop themselves. Now I think as women are now starting to in the West, it's less and less of a, the effects of the ideology are now becoming played out a bit more. And you see women who are having to work really long hours and not being really happy. This is where it's creating the fertile ground for us to have a different conversation about it. But it's an ideology that emerged from the upper middle class, wealthy class. Yeah. And to put a point to that, you even see the, I think the co-creator or the creator of Sex and the City, she's like 60 years old now. And a few months ago, she came out in a news magazine or something and she was like, I kind of regret, you know, pursuing a career or having a family because now I'm truly alone. Yeah. I think her exact words were truly alone because she has no husband, I think, and no kids at 60. And it's like, what are you gonna do, lady? Yeah. You've weeded yourself out of the gene pool. You got no babies. You got no man. Like, yes, it's fucked. And this is like a little aside thing. I've always, a lot of guys will say that women can't do the same things that men can do. And obviously in certain physical tasks, that's of course true. But on a bigger level, though I don't think that that's really the argument, women have historically always picked up the burden of civilization when men can't anymore. One of my favorite passages was at the Grapes of Wrath, the very, very end of the book. I mean, it's a brutal book. You know, obviously it's- I've heard of it, but I haven't read it. It's a Steinbeck, basically. And I mean, it's a very, it's a very communist sympathizing, you can tell. It's basically the stories of the farmers from Oklahoma who basically got their land taken away by banks after the dust bowl and they went out to California because they were marketed to go get work out there. And then of course it's like terrible conditions and they barely get paid for anything and it's just they're being abused over and over again. And at the very end of the book, I mean, spoiler alert for people, the men pretty much break after this over and over again. And you see that the women, and these are not weak women by any stretch of the imagination, but they take over basically the protection of the family because the men have just been beaten, too far beaten down. I actually think that women and a certain, like when push comes to shove, especially when it comes to children and everything, they are more, they can be more resilient than men but they don't like doing this. And I think every woman who has actually had to go and do this, they realize that it's a fantasy to have to carry this burden. They don't actually want to do it. Well, what's coming to my mind during the dialogue you have going here is that choices have consequences. Looks like women can do all these things but there's consequences to when they do them and at the end of the day they don't like those consequences. Yeah. Men stepped up and played their role. Yeah. I don't think it's an effective or even accurate argument when you have guys saying like women can't do this, women can't do this. So it's not just engages their ego. Then they're like, oh, well, you know, we can do it. It's like, it's not about that you can't do it. Anything you can do, I can do better. Right. Yeah. I mean, they have a, you have a choice, right? Yeah. Yep. Let's move on to some more questions here. We have more from the audience but I'd like to get in some of mine. They can wait. Sorry, guys. I'm more important than you. So let's move on a little bit. Talk to me about, and by the way, I love your newsletter. Your newsletter is like, I don't even like newsletters. I kind of hate them to be honest. Yeah. Just emails is not my thing. If you like them, whatever. But yours is great. I like yours a lot. Not too long, not too short. And they're fucking dope. And they're, I think they're pretty advanced. That's what I really noticed with your work is it's not a simplistic Red Pill 101. It's not simplistic pickup stuff. It's also not like lofty like, let's all just get along, bro. It's like, it's practical advice and it's real shit. And as a guy who's spent, you know, and still goes out and talks to women, I've done like 7,000 cold approaches at this point in my life since I was 17 years old. So I've been through the pickup artists community extensively. I've talked to a lot of women. I've met a lot of women and I've studied, you know, through the speakers and beyond, you know, all this stuff for a long time. But your stuff I really like. And I like it feels advanced. It feels really good. It gets me thinking. It provokes, you know, really critical thinking and stuff. Thanks man. For the guys watching, first of all, if they're not on newsletter, they should join it. Pat Stebbin.com slash Optin, I think. Yeah, nailed it. So talking about Red Pill Blue Pill, you know, that's a big thing in the man's sphere. It's got its whole community, the Red Pill. What are your thoughts for the guys who don't know you on those issues alone, Red Pill Blue Pill? Is that a useful analogy? Is it overplayed? Are there problems with the disagreements? Well, you and I have talked about this, you know, one on one before. I, my perspective, I think the Red Pill Blue Pill is a phenomenal analogy. That's why it's so sticky, right? That's why it was great with the matrix and it was easily appropriated for, you know, and not even really just with dating stuff. I mean, there's a whole rabbit hole with Red Pill Blue Pill. I think that... And you walk across domains like politics and philosophy and... Yeah, okay. I think that the Red Pill has been as a term, I am very much aware that there is a huge spectrum of people who identify as Red Pill and it means something very different to them than it means to somebody else. And this has been an ongoing issue. I mean, honestly, I think that you can say a little bit about the same thing with feminism, right? That there are some women who, like, feminism, they hate all the man-hating stuff, but they consider themselves... So there's a lot of, like, semantic issues, right? What does it mean? From my perspective, when I see it, I think I associate it with people who are really, really bitter at this point. So to me, it's just one of those... I mean, what do I think about it? I think it's been really good. I think that because there's a huge section of the man-hispere that does not want to progress, I don't know if the term gets left with them in the long term or not. I know that I personally don't want to be associated strongly with the thinking of those people and the beliefs of those people. And so I guess... The red pill itself is an analogy, like you're saying, it is useful, and I agree with you on that. The red pill, to me, should be, in my opinion, and that's all I've always understood it, since I found that community, it should be truth-seeking. And that means aligning yourself and focusing on to the best of your ability and genuine intention, reality, period. Reality, truth, what is real, what is not? What is fact, what is false? And then navigating that and applying it to your life. Yeah, and I think that the real red pill is that there's always more red pills. You're always peeling back further and further layers of it. And where the trap is, I think, when people are like, I took the red pill, I was wrong, now I'm right about everything because I have one idea. Yep, they're just getting stuck, basically when they say that. But that's a product of fear because it was terrifying enough to jump to this new paradigm. And it's sort of like curiosity and constantly progressing to learn more and more things. Unless you have a very positive mindset, it can be very scary because you always want to constantly, it's like your ship sinks, you want to grab onto the driftwood and there's an island over there, they're too afraid to swim out to the island because that means that they could drown if they jump off the driftwood. So they'd rather just float around there. And then that's just, but I mean, you always have to move on if you want to get to a good place. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. That's a good analogy. One thing I've seen you say about the blue pills that this is interesting when I saw it and it was very thought provoking. And I think a lot of the guys watching that find it interesting too. And if I'm wrong in paraphrasing this, please correct me. You identified, I think, some elements of blue pill thinking, they weren't really blue pill. It said if you're like very low consciousness, like very primitive in your thinking, that shit will fuck up your life. So it was kind of like you were de-demonizing and de-vilifying some blue pill elements in terms of like the red pill blue community that talks about these things. Do you have any thoughts on that or am I interpreting that right? Did I read that right? Yeah, I think mostly. So it's looking at it from like a vibrational level. So you have people who are at different states. And so I have considered even, I would say that even some of the more, what I would call toxic parts of the red pill manosphere, there is a role for them for certain people, like the things that I talk about, for instance, a guy who has lived most of his life in a state of denial and fear and then has like blown apart because he was in complete lack of awareness of what was going on in his relationship. Wife to him leaves, takes a lot of his stuff. He is not at a place yet to be paced by me. I'm going to come across in some ways, I'm gonna remind him of some of the naivety that he faced before because of, partly because of the positivity that he's not gonna be able to address that. And so when he's in a state of hopelessness, moving up in vibration actually, is going to be moving towards anger and to a sense of self-righteousness. And I think that the issue is not so much that people jump onto that, but it's that they are not encouraged to leave that. And there are a lot of people who have gone through the same experiences and they gravitate towards me because they don't have the level of negativity and hopelessness. But when someone else promises you the answers to everything, it's just very easy to collect, it's very easy to collect like weak and broken people that way. But you keep them down rather than raise them up. And to be fair, I'm not very good at engaging with those people for a long period of time. Like I don't- People who are suicidal, they're so erect by some relationship or some blue pill stuff in their life. That's what you mean, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've worked with clients who have really struggled with depression and stuff, but there's a difference because there's a part of them that wants to get better. They wanna get past it. Whereas for a lot of people, it's all that they have is that they're not being lied to anymore and that that belief is the- And actually, I mean, to a large extent, that's what that's how that responds to them is kind of like that single mom in a car screaming at a, you know, the video camera because it's like for the stuff that we talk about here, that challenges their core conception of themselves. And it's just, it's too terrifying of a prospect to deal with. Yep. Yeah, I think that's why I've taken a lot of heat for a long time in the hemisphere is I'm always pursuing the truth and I'm ruthless about it. And I don't care, you know, who it pisses off, who it rubs the wrong way, all these things. What matters to me is the truth. And if that's, you know, that can be, that journey can be scary at times. It can be exciting. It can be dramatic. It can be actually very calm and peaceful times to be very positive. See, I'm always pushing forward to find, you know, the best stuff I can find. And you know, that always pisses people off almost by necessity. And it's clear because of the nature of how the, you know, 21 convention. I mean, you've been at it for what? Like 13 years or something like that? Almost, it'll be 14 in July. 14 in July, yeah. I mean, how much it's changed since you were 18. I mean, you're constantly moving forward and that's why the convention is so enduring. Yeah, exactly. It was really, I think that's why I agree. And I think that's why a lot of them, there's been a lot of manuscript conferences over the years, especially in the pickup community. And they all fell apart, usually in like two to three years, they'd have one, usually they'd get kind of like a starter's, not luck, like a starter's energy boost. It's a very exciting thing like 22 convention now. It's a new convention. It's for women, it's by men. It's got all these different elements to it. It's super provocative on top of that. But even alongside that, it's fucking new. And people like new stuff, right? Yep. You know, I mean, you'd want a used car or you want a new car. Removing all financial elements and other things, you'd be like, yeah, I want a new car. All the things being equal. And it's a matter of saying you're constantly on the conversation. Like, what is the real conversation that men are having? Yeah. You've evolved in 2008. What's been amazing too, I'll go ahead. I was just gonna say, like back in like 2006, 2008, right? Like that was, like it was, you know, like I think we talked about the convention, people with like feather boas and stuff. Oh yeah. Very, very different community back then. Yep. Yeah, most attendees now are like, I mean, it's a pretty good mix. Guys in the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, doctors, lawyers, entrepreneurs, you know, young guys, you know, working. We have an EMT attend the event, like what kinds of stuff in the 20s. But yeah, back in the day, it was the guys would show up and who knows what they did? I mean, I was so young, I didn't even ask for care. But yeah, some of them when I have feather, you know, feather boas, like fucking, literally feathers coming out of their hats and shit. I mean, it was, it was very mystery. You know, Eric Von Markovic says his name inspired. And that's changed dramatically. You don't see that anymore. It would be really unusual to see that at this point. At any convention we do. I haven't seen anything like that in years, you know. Most guys actually dress really well now. Thanks to Tanner Guzzi and some other guys. Yeah. You actually see them get better every year, which is really cool. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Moving to the role of people who are going to be the custodians of civilization, basically. That's right. Damn, this time is flying by. It's been a fucking hour. Oh, shit. I know you got to go soon. I do too. We'll get through a few more. Yeah. Before we get into your, the prodigy coming out to the course. So talk to me a little bit about what you, this is gonna be a fun one. Talk to me about how you see narcissism and content creators in the hemisphere. No need to name names. Like I don't, I don't really care. But is that an issue you think that you've, that our community has? Do you see actual guys with a very legitimate narcissism? Oh yeah. And I don't mean either in the derogatory sense, which is how a lot of people use it. Like, oh, he's a narcissist because he's loud and an asshole. I mean, like real, like extremely self-centered, like you don't see other people as people. Do you see them as pawns basically, narcissism? Well, the big tell, I mean, look, confidence sells. Confidence is not only sells, it's important, right? So we have to distinguish between people who are like confident about what they're putting out. Yeah. People who are narcissism. There's like a, there's like a delusion there. And off, and also it's that everybody else doesn't have any sort of beneficial role. They have to at very least like be like a peon. They always have tools. There's tools. Yeah, they're tools, right? They're subjects. If they're not looking up to you fundamentally, if they're not fundamentally spreading your message, then that's the problem. And yeah, I mean, there's tons of sub-communities that basically, I mean, they're effectively cults. And I know from, and there's more than one. They tend to really hate me. I tend to get them back. Yeah. Right now. I'm not talking about that, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I know from people who have been in them, again, this is beyond any sort of red pill stuff. Like, I know from people who are in them that they are actually legitimately cults in terms of what they demand people believe. And I'll get, I mean, when I get attacked, it's a coordinated attack from like 30 or 40 guys with all the same hashtags and their bios, right? It's just very predictable and it's very, you know, but the point is that how you can tell that someone is really narcissistic is that everything has to, it has to go back to them. And you should always be suspicious about that. Whenever you see somebody who is, refuses to give credit elsewhere, refuses to promote anybody else who isn't underneath them, then or who is very clever about how they do it. Yeah. Some of the best narcissists I think are, like people look at, like I said recently, like good liars or shitty liars is lie and they just kind of wing it. Good liars lie and cover their tracks. Yes. It's actually layers to how they do it. Women and female and female. And yeah, narcissists and cult leaders in our monastery community, they're good at how they do this. So they might give lip service sometimes to who they need to, but it's like the bare minimum. Yes. It's just a smoke screen to cover up what they're doing. Yes. And most people don't see through that. They don't think of multiple layers and they're not looking out for that kind of stuff. And I think they should. The problem for a lot of people is that when they're not in a good place, they're drawn, they don't have a lot of confidence so they're drawn with the confidence. What we were talking about before, right? Yeah, the bravado and stuff, yeah. Which sells, like I love the way, I'm a huge fan of Trump obviously. And I love the way, people call him a narcissist all day long. They're not even, half of them don't even know what the word fucking means. They're just using it as an insult. And I don't think he's a narcissist at all. I think he's actually, he's just using it strategically. Yeah. Kind of like Ivan Throne would do. And that's what I'd do with Michael McGray again as well. And it was worked really well. People would be attacking me and I'm like, the calmest, the most sexist convention in history are on earth now or something. Last night I found a new article about that. The most sexist show on earth. And I think that's, first of all, it's not true. Second of all, it's fucking hysterical. So I just, I share that and I embrace it. And these people that attack us are confused by that. They're like, he's embracing the mansplaining. I'm like, yeah, why not? Like women love mansplaining. A way that you can tell that Trump isn't a narcissist is that he takes an enormous amount of criticism. And he doesn't even get care about it. And narcissists really care about criticism because it speaks to the thing that's beneath them. Well, they're very thin skinned. They don't have, that confidence is very fake. It's at the very thin shell for their compensation. Yeah. Yeah. Do we need to talk more often to these interviews? Man, this has been fucking great. I wouldn't have to go. We've both got a bounce in a minute. Before we wrap up, talk to us about the course you have that just came out recently, Pat Stebbin, Masterclass. Yeah. So the basis, the reason I designed the course, I just, I do a coaching practice. My coaching had got really, really full over the summer. It's still really full, but it was gained to a point where I was on calls for 35 hours a week. Oh shit. In addition to, maybe you guys have seen, sometimes I can be a little flaky. There's just tons and tons of client work. I got it. And so basically, I was thinking of creating like a coaching program that had a little less one-on-one time with me. And I was gonna use, I was gonna create a Masterclass. So I basically was gonna cover like pretty much every major topic that I would cover with clients and got Tiger, he's a good guy on Twitter. And he came out and we filmed it and it was three days straight. He was 14 and a half hours of content. Nice. Just going out after a topic, after a topic, after a topic. The first module, each of the, there's about, there's five modules plus a bonus Q and A where I talk about really uncensored stuff. I got a drank a bottle of champagne and got a lot of, that actually, I love that portion of it. But the other module is about two and a half hours each. And first module is all about intergame, confidence, like deep psychology. Second one is talking about screening women and understanding female nature. Third one is all about game, all the different aspects of game. And fourth one is about dating. And so I basically go through all the different, different, you know, social circle game, day game, night game, internet, you know. I'm reliving my childhood when you say these things. Yeah. I'm covering like, like almost every topic that you could possibly imagine that would go over. And then the fifth module is about relationships and intimacy and sex. And I mean, so I produced this thing and it was just for clients, you know, a way that they could revisit topics and that I could say, okay, check out this video. We don't have to waste time on the phone because I was having the same conversation sometimes multiple times a day. Yeah. And then I was like, I was talking to my business coach about it and seemed kind of ridiculous not to just release it on its own because the reality is that like, working with me costs thousands of dollars. And it's not something that everybody has the ability to do. The course is $500. It's going to stay at $500. Anybody who really, I mean, when I was a college student I shout out like all of my college money to get man transformation, which was like, you know, I think that was almost a thousand, right? Dude, I was in high school with my buddies and we had to split mysteries ebook. What was it? Fuck, I forget the fucking title of it was, but anyways, first ebook or the M3 model or whatever the fuck it was. Yeah, yeah. Before they redid it into magic bullets. Yeah, okay. It was like 70 bucks, but we're like, you know, 16 years old or whatever and we're like, fuck, we got to like split this thing. Yeah, so my perspective is like, this is something and really like 80% of the information at a minimum is going to be relevant to guys because there's so much, we go so deep in it that there's crossover if you're in a relationship. So much of the stuff in the dating section applies to your relationship. If you're dating, so much of the relationship stuff applies to, so it's, you know, I grouped it into these modules, but it's really, it's really stuff. So I think it's a fucking steal. It is really just like, it's going to completely level up guys' understanding of, it's like, it's the closest thing you can get to working with me. And so I mean, I really stand by it. I mean, I wish I could talk more about it. I know we got to jump, but... Yeah, we'll talk about it again. And for you guys who want to get, want to check it out, I'll actually put a link. When you, if you buy through this link, it'll support the channel. So I appreciate that. Yeah. So put a link to the, you know, the Pat's Devon Masterclass. I just got access to it myself. I'm pretty excited to check it out. Based on what you're saying, it really reminds me of your newsletters, which go through all these, these very diverse topics, but you do so really well. That's what I love just to, you know, read your newsletter. Not just a lot of stuff, but he's navigated a very similar life history to me. And I think a lot of the guys in the Manusphere do that. They found the game or whatever years ago, they found the Thicke Bartos community, they've kind of, you know, phased in and out over time with relationships and, you know, culture changing and things like that. So I love seeing your newsletter and your class sounds like a really super powered version of your newsletter, basically. The content, the ideas come out of your head. Yeah. I mean, it's not for people who want just, if you're looking for just like a couple of like tactical tips or something, it's really much more than that. Like I recommend people don't watch more 30 minutes to an hour a day because it's like heavy, heavy stuff. Hey, you got to process it. You got to process it, but you can go back to it over and over again. So I mean, it will, it will rewire your mind. Like if you, Fuck yeah. If you buy it. I'll check it out, man. I'll check it out. I really love, you know, like I said, your newsletter and what you might want in your speech and stuff. So I'm excited to check it out. Guys, we got a bounce. Appreciate you tuning in live. I'll check out the link to his class and his website beneath in the video. Make sure you hit the like button, subscribe and share. I appreciate it. So does Pat. So does everyone on the channel. All the speakers benefit from it when you guys do that kind of stuff. I'm gonna hit the end button here for the broadcast. I'll see you guys next time. Yeah. See you guys. Yeah. Fuck yeah. This has been great. We'll do it again, man. This is good. Cool.