 Hi, hwnnw yw hwnnw yw hwnnw yw hwnnw yw Arbys TV yw hwnnw yw hwnnw yw hwnnw yw Caren Frankel yw'r West Australian Mixed Media Artist yw'r Educator. Felly mae'n cymdeithasol i'r ddweud o ddweud o'r ddweud o ddweud o ddweud o ddweud o ddweud o ddweud o ddweud o ddweud o ddweud o ddweud o ddweud o ddweud. Her experience comes from people of her experience with people of all walks of life has kept her passionate about bringing creativity to those who think they haven't got a creative bone in their body. Now in 2003, Caren started teaching small private drawing classes that grew into a full art school, Galleria Art Studio, running 17 classes a week for adults and children. She talks all about this in the interview, how it happened and how she ended up going to this next phase which in 2020 her long held dream of becoming a published author and this fabulous get drawing book even if you think you can't was born into the world. So in this interview of course we're talking about how to get your book published. So let's go ahead and dive straight in. We're going live into our business for artist Facebook group and today I am super super super excited to be doing this very first live interview actually with Caren and we hope that it's all going to work. We hope that the stream is going to hit the group and you can all see it. So while we're waiting for people to come on board, we're just going to have a bit of a, we're just drinking our tea aren't we Caren? Cheers everyone. Cheers. What have you got tea coffee? Coffee. Coffee. Perfect. Perfect. Okay. So. Okay. So if the first people I can see that somebody somebody can see us. Can you very kindly let us know in the chat that you can see and hear us. Okay. Are we appearing on your screen? I can see I think is it. Oh, there we are. Look, I can just see us. Yes. Brilliant. Okay. But we're all good. And I can see a cheers from a Facebook user. That's from GoT so I can see. Yeah, that's great. That's great. Lovely. Thank you. Okay. Well, I guess we will. Well, we've got one minute so we'll have a chilly chatty and then we will begin on the hour because I like to be punctual. So somebody says in here and see brilliant. Unfortunately with the software we've got there we actually can't see who it is. It's just I can look if I look on my phone. So if you're going to ask us a question, we might just ask you to just pop your name because the software we're using doesn't tell us the name of the person. So it would require so if you keep refreshing her phone, which is not a great idea. It's not ideal in an interview. It's not ideal. It's not ideal. All right. Okay. I think it's four o'clock. I know that both Karen and I have been super super super excited. It's Joti. Yes. Hi, lovely. I can see awesome. Welcome. We've been so excited to do this interview. And well, first off, thank you Karen for agreeing and for being here. Oh, you're welcome. You're welcome. It's a favourite subject of mine. So I have no problem talking about my art in my book. Awesome. Awesome. Okay. Cares. Hi, Cares. Hello. Welcome. Welcome. All right. We're going to officially start as people come on. It's wonderful. You're watching the replay. Of course, you know what you got to do. I always love you to just hit the comments below hashtag replay and let us know that you are watching the replay. Wonderful. Okay. So our topic for today, of course, is how to get your book published. So I guess for some of you watching, perhaps this is something that you might be interested in. It's something that you've maybe got half a book written or you're thinking, oh, if only I could put that book together, I'd love to do it. And when I first met Karen, it was kind of what you were saying. I've got this book. Yeah, indeed. Indeed. I've got this book a couple of years ago. Yeah. Oh my goodness me. So it's been quite a project. It's been quite a journey. So let's just we just this is quite informal. We're going to dive straight into views. Everyone's ready. We're just going to go straight in there. So Karen, just tell us a little bit about your background before I met you before we knew about the book project. Kind of what brought you here today? Well, as you can hear from my accent, I'm originally Zimbabwe in South Africa and answer to both. Came to Australia in 84. So quite a while ago, always been creative. My father was an artist so grew up in that household. I did not study art beyond school. I did a BA, which was commonly known as a buggerall. Love it. So my art was always my hobby. It was never, it wasn't something I studied. However, I needed it more when I came when I migrated and I started doing courses and, you know, various classes, et cetera, et cetera. I have, I guess, always wanted to share my knowledge, particularly about drawing, because there's this crazy idea that, no, you have to be born a drawer and all of that sort of thing. Even before I knew I wanted to share it, I wanted to share it. Does that make sense? Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. You've always been an artist really? I've always been an artist. Have I always been a teacher? I did a teaching degree, but I never taught in a school officially. But I think I've always been an instinctive teacher. And one of the things that really started the ball rolling for me to be an artist, because prior to that, I was a computer programmer in another life in a business with my husband. In 2000, I had a mental breakdown and part of my coming out of that was getting back in touch with my art in a very, very big way. And that was, yeah, the catalyst to starting up my art again. Wow, that's quite a change, isn't it? But I guess it's those skills then that have you used those skills, because I know that you've also built an art business, a literal physical business. Did you use, tell us a little bit about those, about that business and maybe have you integrated some of those skills in there? Yes, so as a result of looking after myself, shall we say, I volunteered to teach small groups. I volunteered at a community centre, and so that's what got the teaching part started. And one of the places where I volunteered was for an adult community education for UWA extension. And I was approached by someone to say, do you want to come teach for us? And I went, really? You're going to pay me to do what I love? And so that happened and then those people said, resonated with me in my style and they said, we'll come to you for private lessons if you want to do that. And so I hired a whore with five people and I said, okay, if I get five people I'll start. So it wasn't an intentional business. I fell into everything. And in terms of what I learned through my own healing, that came out through the art as well and the teaching of art. Because people are so self-judgmental about their abilities when it comes to art and drawing. That they think they should know how to do it and that should word is so terrible. That self-esteem issue, leave your judgment at the door, all of that comes into teaching art. And it's become your brand, if you like as well, hasn't it? Yes. So tell us, I pick up on that five people in a room. So many people say to me, oh, I'd like to teach, but I don't know. I don't know if anyone's going to show up. But it's the number one worry, isn't it, for anyone who's going to do a workshop? So you hired a whore and you got five people in it. What happened after that? Because I happen to know that you've just sold a very successful business. So take us just briefly from the five people to selling the business. Yeah. And let me say that I didn't hire the whore until I had the five people. I didn't do it as a bad person. I like that. Yeah. And in fact, nothing in the growth of my business was just build it and they will come. They came and I built it. Perfect. I love that. And I wasn't even aware that I was running a business, to be honest. So I did that for two and a half years. People approached me to say, do you teach kids? And I started teaching kids in another community centre. And I got involved with them. This is a very helpful thing to do. I didn't have it so feedback then. But what I did have and they still exist is the small business development corporation, which is free advice on all sorts of things business. Perfect. Yeah. And so I used their workshops. You know, what about renting? And I decided I did my homework and I decided to rent a studio. And in the lease I rented it for a year by year rather than five years and five years because I thought at the most I'll lose 10 grand over a year, which is not a small amount of money, but it's the most. It's better than five years worth, yes. Indeed. I like your thinking. So that happened. And everything about the business was people requesting. Do you teach watercolours? No, but I'll find a watercolour teacher. But now I was paying for a studio that was empty if I wasn't using it. So you brought in other teachers, didn't you? It wasn't just yourself? Yes. Absolutely. And then I needed help with admin. So I brought in, in fact, my daughter came much like you, you know, paying my daughter to come and do admin. And eventually I turned around to her and said, I'm running a business, you know, because I was running my org and I was running, I was advised by a mentor that I was seeing freely through the business corporation to get a system that looked after my students and the admin of my students. So it was a bit of a shock to my system that I was running a business. I wonder how many other people find that, you know, you just start organically somebody else, you do it. And then suddenly it's like, oh, actually, this is a business. Yeah. I didn't sit out to run a business. It was very organic. Yeah. And I ended up with 17 classes a week. Three different kids age group classes. Watercolours, acrylic drawing. So I had other people coming in. 17 classes a week of which I was running three. And that's the key, folks. Anyone who wants to do this is right. OK, Karen's not running 17 classes away. She's running three. And that's it, isn't it? You know, you've built a brand like that and you've got followers in the tribe and people who came to that business. So what happened? You got to a point where you decided you wanted to make a change? The first change was it used to be called Karen Frakel Art Studio and may I advise anybody out there not to, well, it's a bit cheeky to say don't put your name on it. If you're running an art business and you're selling your art, absolutely it has to have your name on it. Yes, yes. But the fact that I was running an art school meant that it didn't really need to have my name on it and I wasn't teaching all the classes. So about five years ago, I had a plan, I had an exit plan basically, but five years ago or longer I decided to change the name to Galleria Art Studio, which was an excellent move because what it allowed me to do was separate myself as an artist, Karen Frakel Artist, and Galleria Art Studio. Absolutely. And I took a term's leave, I gave myself long service leave. I love it, I love it, it's brilliant. And I wanted to see if the business could run without me. Yes, because at the end of the day, the real business should run without you, that's class technically, that's what I learned back in the day. Yes, exactly, and I worked very hard to make it so. Yes. And my admin lady knew everything, so she ran everything. I got a replacement to teach my classes for a term. All the other classes were being taught by the teachers anyway, and it worked like a charm, which meant it was saleable. Yes, and that's what you went on to do then? Yes. So how easy was it to sell an existing business? Did you find that process easy? I found it easy because the right person came along serendipitously. The right person came along at the right time, and she's worked out to be... It was a win-win situation that was, if we told you the full story, you'd think that only happens in the movie. It's that good. It's that good. It's fantastic. Although I did engage somebody to help me, but in the end didn't need to use him because this person came along to find out about running an art school. She lived in Port Headland, and I said, oh, it's a pity you don't live in Perth because I'm selling my business. And she said, really? The whole thing happened. That's wonderful, isn't it? When it all just falls like that, it's the best possible way. I love that. So having sold the business, what was the plan? What was you said you had an exit strategy? You exited from the business, and so where now does the book come in? OK. So the book has always been there. I've always wanted to take my teaching, which seemed to resonate so well personally. I wanted to put that in book form if possible. And somebody, a friend suggested, based on her son wanting to draw, that I try and marry written words and video somehow. So we weren't watching a YouTube video, but we weren't just looking at a book, and I thought that was a brilliant idea. So long before everyone became OFA with QR codes, like they are now, I had professional videos made to link with the book. So I'm not answering your question. That's all right. I've always wanted to do it. The man had just started seven years ago just before my dad died. He said, where are you going now? He asked me exactly the same question. And I said to him, I'm going to write a book. And he looked at me and he said, how can you write a drawing book? And I said, just watch me. I wish you were here to see it. Yeah. Yeah. OK. Amazing. So how easy was it to write a book, Karen? Not as easy as you would think, Soph. Although most people don't think it's easy, I know. And on the other hand, easier than one would think. Because I'm a natural talker. I found that if I wrote, you just have to read it all out. That's the first thing. I did have some strategies, but in terms of how to set it up, because I taught it for so long that I knew how I take beginners through. And that was what the book was going to be. I wanted myself in a book, my classes in a book. Yeah, in a book. But at the end of the day, I worked better when I'm talking, when I'm demonstrating. And so the way I wrote it was this, which has its own idiosyncrasies. The other thing that I was aware of was that I needed pertinent sketches and diagrams, pertinent photographs. And I'd chosen to go the video route as well. And I wasn't, you know, now being of faith with all of the stuff, maybe I would have done it myself, but I wasn't then. OK, so you wrote the writing if you outsourced the other bits? Yes. Yeah. And if you were doing, I'm not going to ask you that question later, so I'll hold that question off. But OK. So what was your process? So the only output was the video and the design. Yeah. The final design. And how long did it take from kind of, OK, I've got the concept. I'm going to write this book to, I'm holding it in my hands. Seven years. Oh, OK. So because I was running a business, I didn't actually dedicate myself to, OK, every Monday you're going to write your book. It was when I had breaks, when I had the motivation to do it, and the best motivation of all was going away. I had to remove myself from my home. Yeah. Even from my dog maybe, or sometimes she came with me depending on where I went, but I had to, and then I dedicated the whole time from waking up in the morning to going to bed at night was book. And that got me through well because I'm a big procrastinator and I'm a big, I might sound bolshian confident that there's a little person in me going, ooh, I'm writing a book and it's not going to be good enough and it's got one and why am I just trying, you know, so that self-doubt obviously creeps in. So OK, that's a really good point because I think a lot of people would be hampered there, it's a lot of drawing books out there or a lot of painting books or whatever book you're going to put together. How did you think yourself out of that process? How did you get out of that process? Or didn't you? I did get out of that process, but I had to continually convince myself that when I had those thoughts, I had the arguments ready which were, no Karen, your book is different because you've got the video. The other reason why it was different is because of my teaching experience meant I had, I'd met everyone before, I knew what mistakes they were going to make and most drawing books, you have no clue why your work is going to be different to why it doesn't look like what your exercise is telling you but you haven't got an answer and I hopefully in sections called Watchpoints gave them the answers to did you do this, did you do this, did you do this, did you do this so I knew that there was also something different so I had a unique selling point shall we say. That's the most important thing isn't it? Did you do any research before or did you just go look I've taught this, this is my thing, this is what I'm going to do, did you look at what people had written or did you decide not to do that? Absolutely, no I did and sometimes I found a book and I thought to myself why am I bothering, it's all there it's beautifully written so sometimes I did that but I have to say which I feel quite chuffed about is that most of them the majority were not aimed at, they were aimed at beginners but they were not written for beginners so they were assuming a certain level of knowledge assuming a certain understanding of jargon and I don't teach like that and I don't write like that and I think that was quite refreshing. If you look at the standard which is drawing on the right side of the brain which kind of has become the standard and I don't want to diss her because I wish that I had that at this but it is so boring and belaboring going through her screams and I didn't want it to be that. You wanted it a bit more hands-on a bit more inspiring, a bit more real and down to earth and I know you've got your copy there and I thought I was like ready to see I've got my copy right here so we'll talk about where other people get their copy at the end. If you were to do it again would you take seven years what would you do differently what would you say to someone who wants to write their book now? If you were involved in other stuff I think mainly the seven years became seven years because I was doing other things and I chose not to put my priority into the book so I knew that once I sold the business and I wasn't thinking about the business 24-7 I would have much more time and so I probably did more work in the last three years than in the previous four I marked about so yes I might take seven years I don't think that was a definitive thing of success or not success what really did it for me was the COVID lockdown last year Interesting isn't it is that a enforced time? So that's when I completed it the things I would do differently which I'm happy to talk about now or later depending on what you No let's do it now let's do it Change is I went through a massive learning curve and therefore I would change some things based on that learning curve The most important one I reckon is the editing of the book so in terms of I paid an editor somebody that I'd met many years ago and I thought I would give her the book she would send it back to me all edited and I'd send it off to my designer and bang bang the book would be done and that was a very naive thought so that you don't have to send it to a professional editor you do have to send it to a professional editor but not first you need to get other people as many people's eyes on it as possible people in your field people not in your field I had fantastic one of my ex students went through it she was an English teacher my best friend was an English teacher she went through it checking grammar I'm a writer in that I don't have to check my grammar when I'm talking easily and if I did that for the book I needed to check into it even though it was in my voice so I was very careful not to take me out of it I didn't want to correct it to that that was the major major major learning curve I gave my designer way too early not for other people to look at it before it goes to a professional editor and how did you in my opinion so how did you put it all together so we've got the writing which I guess you know literally let's be practical here so you've got the writing what on word docs this is the stuff people want to know you wrote on word docs you had it already so here's my menu I printed this up at at Officeworks and I bound it and everything so that was my very first book right yes in word I did try an app called Scrivener which seemed fantastic but in the end I was playing with the bells and whistles rather than just writing the bloody thing I knew that I was going to get a designer to actually do the physical layout of the pages etc so I had to give him placeholders for where the photographs were can be so you do have to pay a lot of attention if you're writing this sort of book to labelling your every image you've got have labelled what it is, where it's going to go otherwise you're going to go wrong especially if you're not if you're not designing it if you are designing it in something like publisher and you're of that nature and I am of that nature but eventually I said to myself Karen you cannot do everything great I love it it's so important to learn to go what are your key skills your key skills you've got the knowledge you're the teacher you put the information in you do not want to be not wasting your time but you've got better things to do with your time than to do that I love that so that went to somebody else very lucky in that I could afford to pay him I chose to pay for exquisitely designed professional I wanted a provisional result I didn't want to go what's it called print on demand which was my other option alright so you've got you get the first draft you look at it all and you're like okay we make some tweaks and changes how does it go from the designer to being here and being able to buy it what was that process like my designer has a relationship sorry I was just reading a a message my designer has a relationship with book printers so he got me a whole lot of quotes I looked at quotes I belonged to some publishing Facebook things that I was looking at lots of different options I was looking at ingram spark and I was looking at there's lots and lots of print on demand things even for Amazon it was massively difficult for me to get a print on demand for Amazon as well because of the images it was not suitable for a completely different ballgame isn't it to just write in a book and getting it on there I was so interested to hear the process because wouldn't it be great to put something like this but how do you so he found some suggestions and you did the hard labour and had a look at them all yes pretty much and another thing that I wanted because I wanted it to be what I wanted and again I could afford to pay for it so I take less profit because of that I wanted it ring bound right so some real work I wanted a cover so when you take this to libraries to book shops and I've taken it to book shops they all look at this and they go hmm now I can put that on my bookshelf whereas if it's a pure ring bound book that they cannot put on their bookshelf interesting so that cost me more money I have to say I chose to do that but that means now you can't get it I want this ring bound to go flat absolutely use your hope taking a lesson and the last thing you want is some book flat I've got a spine your attention to detail there is really really good I'm hearing that you've outsourced a lot and I'm not going to ask you what it costs but you've got a substantial investment into this my daughter came with my hobby because I took you money at it absolutely hopefully at some point they'll come back to you so how did you make the final decision with the company that you went with what was your criteria for that um cost they were all around the same cost for this level of quality it was made easier because not a lot of people offered this binding so it was made easier and quite frankly my designer is a professional designer who designs the docker's logos and he's up there and I took his advice I was happy to take his advice it's brilliant and it turned out just stunning because he's a stickler for detail and if they would have screwed it up they would have had both of us to deal with because I had gone through so much trouble that I wasn't going to lose it at the last minute and I've heard horror stories of people getting their books from the printer and going through and it's been crooked and it's been this and it's been that and I didn't want to go there so experience was worth every cent so we're saying if you want to put basically if you want to put an art book together a book with pictures with anything whatever you're teaching doing you want to put your own book together somehow A you did a lot of outsourcing which I really love and B you've really gone and got top quality you've taken people who know what they're doing and there advice and gone that's it I'm going with somebody who recommends that and you've ended up with this beautiful quality product and I think so like I said your attention to detail has paid off in abundance it's a stunning workbook I appreciate that What are your future plans for this lovely book? It is available as a pdf online as well as the physical book my plans ultimately are to turn it into a course that's what I thought you were going to say course so my thinking is Karen it's all you've got the videos, you've got the images you've got it what is there to do however there is quite a bit to do isn't there so just a little bit just a little bit so now that I've been working with Kajabi for a year now because I signed up for Kajabi specifically to launch this book for anyone who has no idea what that is that is an online software where you can have your website but primarily we're using it for launching courses and memberships and that sort of thing and other courses as well but specifically the book and also it's about introducing people and I can see from the person that's put that lovely message up I've got a get drawing Facebook group which is the community and that's one of the things I really wanted out of this was both before this for people to buy the book obviously but a continuing community of beginner drawers learning with me and that's something that we didn't talk about and I sort of looked through it and I thought that's interesting if you've mentioned beginners and you mentioned the other books we didn't specifically actually talk about the audience that you targeted this to as it's completely and utterly for beginners for those people who think I can't do it I can't draw or I'll never be able to draw well hence the title get drawing even if you think you can't even if you think you can't and when I thought of that I thought don't be naff Karen don't put a stupid that's just silly and then I thought no that's who you are go for your life absolutely how often do we get put off by a little voice in the head going don't do that don't do that but the fact that I came out straight away that was the right title it's your title it belongs to your brand your book I love it I'm so pleased that you just went with that you didn't allow yourself to go oh I need to have some other title yes yes yes thank you it's very powerful so you've got the group so people can can because I know that you do weekly videos you do weekly videos they've got the book and then they're going to be able to get the course yes hopefully so the big secret which is no longer a secret is that I this in fact next week is my last week after 18 years of teaching in the business I have now retired from teaching I will still be doing some physical workshops and relief teaching in that and it's very bittersweet because I leave some of my students who've been with me for 15 years and even the beginner students are going oh but we love you which is very flattering and lovely so now I can put more attention both into my art but also into doing developing this into a course I've got another course on watercolour pencils that I want to develop and change pivot shall we say absolutely that's what it's all about isn't it I mean your journey has been so inspiring I think not I mean the book yes but also building the physical business you know going through that whole sort of chopping and changing and now you know I'm really excited for you to see you know the next phase I think it's incredible so many people dream of having something like this and you know they don't make that happen so so what would you say to somebody who is sitting there thinking oh I don't know you know I've got an idea but just like you thought but I think there's a lot out there I'm not sure what would you say to someone who's sitting kind of on the fence they're not really quite sure I would say do it just do it even if it's for your own satisfaction but I do think I guess that you need to at least ask yourself why so if it's for personal gain fabulous if it's to make a big profit don't do it I hope I make a big profit but that's not the reason to do it to be a best seller yes of course we all want to be a best seller but that's also if you think you've got something to say like I had to play those two heads find that unique selling you know why is my book different to the others absolutely very very important there are other reasons for writing a book even if it's not different your voice has to be different just because it's you so it's not hard to find a reason why it's different and it's as simple as a notebook you know writing it physically or a word processor and can I say something that I haven't said yet which is a very big thank you to you Sophie because I met you at the right time in terms of my journey it was just before I sold the business and having a mentor having someone who kicks your back when you need it kicked is very useful and important so I highly recommend for people to do that for themselves and hold them accountable I think there was a bit of butt kicking I do remember in the process I think just whoever it is choose to do it make sure that you're speaking your voice and that you have that unique angle whatever it is and find someone to hold you accountable because if you're sitting on turrets trying to get it done there are easier ways reach out and get some help it's just been amazing amazing amazing so I think we need to let people know where they can get their hands on this book when can we buy it if you physically want to go into a shop to buy it I'll give you my address no I won't give you my address you're welcome to come and buy it from me it's available in stores it's available in a planet books it's available at Diabolic what's the name of the suburb specifically what if we're outside of Australia if you're outside of Australia you have to get the pdf I'm afraid you'd like to pay the enormous costs at the moment but within Australia I actually pay for shipping you can go to my website which is simply caronfrancal.com we'll put all the links to your website or your social media all the stuff will be we're watching this we'll put as much either above it if we're on Facebook or below it on YouTube but you can buy directly of my website pay it by credit card and I'll ship it to you perfect and if you're a long way off you can grab the pdf version unless you want to pay for the pdf for the postage so someone was just saying that she's overjoyed to be a member of Get Drawing and learn from Karen excellent artist, dedicated teacher Karen is an eternal inspiration I love that, thank you so much and I agree I've known Karen for a little while now and totally totally inspiring lady I say both as an artist and as a teacher and now as an author I think you know no matter where we are in our journey it's an inspiring book anyway and just to know the person that's put that together I think is magical so have you got any final thoughts anything else that you would like to share to our aspiring writers or aspiring art book publishers don't beat yourself up if you are procrastinating it's not a train rig I took 7 years and so if it takes 7 years it takes 7 years but do it that's the key isn't it that is the key it's the doing and there are lots of trial and errors and I've done pictures and I learnt to edit the photographs or I drew photographs drew sketches specifically for it and I drew them 3, 5, 10 times because they weren't good enough and then I scanned them so it is time consuming it is relentless it is nitty gritty stuff that just needs to be done not the fun stuff you just have to get through it I think you know what I've spoken to various authors over the years that's what I hear you just got to get over it I met somebody who said I went to a foreign country sat in a cafe for 10 days for some people that will be one way of doing it others will just spend 2-3 hours a day over a certain period of time it depends on your disability it doesn't matter does it matter to you you just got to do it the couple of other people on the book is definitely fantastic and happy to have it somebody says by direct if you've seen Karen at an art show as I did that's fine that's great as long as you're in North Australia but if you're watching this from I know the US it's available at the Mandeirin Art Centre and Midland Art Centre so it is available around Strat it's available if you're in Perth WA and then you can come and meet Karen as well so that's a double bonus thank you listen Karen thank you so much it's been so much fun it's been totally enlightening and I wish you ever every success with your course and of course ongoing with getting this book out into more hands and growth of the group etc etc and don't forget to follow Karen on the good old socials as well and we'll put links to all of those above and below these videos has anybody got I should have asked has anybody got any questions for Karen I should have said that at the beginning really if you've got any questions type them in now or if you're watching the replay of course post your questions below I'm very happy to answer questions happy to come back and answer them because I think it's such an inspiring topic I should have asked that earlier I should have said if you've got any questions just post them below and Karen's happy to answer them at any point thank you so much thank you for asking my pleasure alright thank you everybody for watching live as well you're amazing I can see we've got some Karen fans so thank you so much take care and have a great day bye bye everyone and get drawing bye bye thank you