 Hello, Alex. Hi Audrey, how are you? Pretty good. Can you hear me? Yeah, I hear you perfectly. Okay, great. Great. Thank you for making the car No, my pleasure. Thanks for finding the time. I know how busy you are Yeah, so so we have how much time do you have? I have no deadline. So, you know, let's maybe Work to a bit of an agenda and see how we go. What about you? Are you constrained? I have another meeting in an hour or so. So maybe in an hour of time. So, yeah So give or take. I just received this Document which I was just briefly reading the pre-election briefing of the social enterprise opportunity Yeah, so it's when I originally spoke to Corey, you know, he mentioned that It would be useful for you just to get a bit located in terms of what's happened in New Zealand So I thought one way about that was sort of sending you a document that we've just sent to our own MPs and political parties in the run-up to the election So, I mean the degree that we get through it now or not I mean, you know, we can just have the conversation rather than a Presentation, but I thought it might be a useful thing to maybe, you know If nothing else read on the plane on the way over to the World Forum No, it is it is very useful. Actually, I just finished reading it and I do have some questions and some notes So I don't know if you're you're okay with that Maybe we just use the presentation as the agenda and I can also introduce briefly where Taiwan is In each of the slides if that's okay with you. No, that sounds great. Yeah I mean the one thing I mean, I'm not sure it'd be interesting to see test this in conversation But one of the things I've been Thinking on recently is reflecting on how some of the More evolved or mature social enterprise sectors have sort of almost found their way organically and I think there's a there's a sense of second wave sector development and I think, you know, you would potentially sort of put New Zealand To a certain degree Australia and Taiwan into that where we're actually able to see the shape of The infrastructure as a result of others having done it, you know So there's almost a sense of choreography around this work, which we are involved in on which was probably far more Hidden myths and experimental For for the more mature market So so I think it's interesting to be able to take this kind of almost and obviously it's still system stuff But you know this all kind of intentional approach to architecture. Yeah, that this sounds excellent So let me try sharing the screen with you and see if you can see the screen Any moment now Like this Yes, great. It's working awesome and Like if I put annotations Through yeah, that's great So so I guess this is really and this is after a bit of trial and error over many years of engaging with I suppose with government but also other Sources of power, you know be that the corporate sector the philanthropic sector local government to try and find some of the key messages which seem to Resonate with them. So rather than see in social enterprise as a good in itself really Describing it more as a means to an end and how it is complementary to a number of the existing priorities They already have so the these kind of sort of six messages are the things that we've sort of landed on I have to say after seeing what works and and doesn't work But I think you know what comes out there is there is Anxiety in government around unequal economic development and How that sort of Surfers itself in a geographical context, but also demographical and cultural Secondly this this sense of where government wants to go itself around wanting no longer to be their provider of everything But I think even if it doesn't articulate it well itself an enabler or facilitator of more self-directed development That's important in the New Zealand context, especially with Maori development so the tribal economy and self-determination being a very core part of Identity and strategy for for Maori obviously The the piece around unlocking new pools of capital, you know, so we're not giving more The tax take isn't really increasing But the the need social environmental need is increasing So new pools of capital and really that the argument around impact investment and matching social models to or so funding models as a successful strategy and then really as a You know this idea of innovation and capability so and For me personally, I think there's quite a radical innovation agenda here A lot of innovation has been in elite pockets and still it's and there's a sense of social enterprise as a as a channel to broaden Access to skills and capabilities around innovation and entrepreneurship And then I think you know this last thing of like I Think the SDGs from my sense are actually getting traction and perhaps more traction than people ever Expected and so social enterprises being a kind of a Connection to those global goals and also solidarity of a global movement. So so that those sort of six things, you know, sort of End up sort of being quite a holistic systems Play and I think, you know pretty in social enterprise in that context is far more powerful than sort of, you know Simply saying that this is social stuff that can pay for itself. Yeah So a few questions on the slide as I noticed that you you if I hear correctly Say that social enterprises Somehow its own sector right that overlaps with other sectors. Did I get a terminology, right? Yeah, well, I think It depends what level you want to interrogate this at I think simplistically it's helpful to Construct it that way. Mm-hmm. I mean in reality, I think we're talking about social enterprises being a space Which represents the convergence from different sectors, right? Three sectors and then we put such enterprise in the middle or something like that That's right. I mean, you know, so social leaning into commercial command or commercial lead into social You know and and also that space or that market being enabled by the way the sort of government is conducting its business So so I think it's helpful to try and find an identity and say, you know Let's put edges on it in order to think about then how we provide the infrastructure to support it But I think in reality, it's probably more nuanced and complicated than that Right cuz cuz when I read the definition That that you use which is first that it must trade that is to say to overlap with the for-profit sector in a certain way And then it must deal with not just to further shareholder interest But further the social mission in some way. I think it really does put the edges as you said To to form its own sector But what about the the government there? Yeah Like does the Does the social enterprise need to tackle a problem that the government deems as what they are internationally as SDG What they or or or whatever? Issue that they find important is actually good enough even though it doesn't overlap with the government identified issues No, I mean we certainly I Respond to this in a slightly different way. We very much need government here as a Partner and a key stakeholder in but it is not the owner or the director of so so, you know a healthy Social enterprise sector will inevitably Create innovation and solutions around priorities which are of interest to the government of the day But it will also really be directed by Communities or individuals trying to change the problems that are important to them, right? So it's my directional, right? So so it has its own agenda setting power It's not just the government setting the agenda for for the social enterprise development It's also surfacing issues that the government did not consider as important But nevertheless is is that the general idea that that's what I mean It's interesting if you if you compare the way that government ten or at least in the New Zealand context I think it is comparable in other countries the way that government thinks around Social and the way that thinks about economic are our mirror images of them really so our business Strategy is to create the conditions for more businesses to start up and succeed and it may have interests in certain sectors But generally it wants to unleash innovation across the board Whereas in the social it identifies key priority areas, which it then contracts services to try and exactly exactly so the the social thing is very kind of like You know narrowing in That's what I'm drawing here, right? It's a essentially a one-way agenda setting Yeah from the government to the social sector But so enterprise in your idea does not work like this. No, no, I think it's it You know, it will at its best It will test government to think itself as a facilitator in terms of supporting the development of enabling infrastructure But then also as a as a market participant So Increasingly, you know, it will want to purchase the outcomes of what social enterprise deliver now whether that is through the direct and purchase of goods and services or Funding which relates to specific social outcomes, which is a more difficult and unformed market But nonetheless, that's where we're going So I always remember that there was a great slide from one of the guys in the UK government that was talking around The UK government's role was market builder regulator and then participant So it's there to set the stage It's there to make sure that you know things work as well as they can and that's obviously where government has a monopoly But then lastly its ultimate interest is to actually, you know Purchase the outcomes or facilitate the purchase of those outcomes from other parties. I think I see. Thank you That's that's very clear. So So the second and the last question on this slide is that you mentioned SDGS as the Connector that connects the the local scene to the international and evidently it's getting a lot of support in especially the World Forum that's that's going to happen and that you are organizing. So are there specific Topics outside the SDGS that you also think is important. I understand that Taiwan and New Zealand has a agreement of originates Development which is notably kind of not any of the SDG but never the less important Have you seen anything that are similarly interesting in a international collaboration? Perspective but not clearly, you know sorted into one of the SDG slots That's a good question. I Mean my sense of it some of it's around framing I mean, I think there, you know, most things that you would want to see progressed Can be allocated under the goals in some shape or form I think I think there is maybe a more nuanced point around sort of solidarity movements You know Which does get picked up I suppose You know talk my butt, you know sort of you know sort of democracy and civil rights, but maybe not You know, maybe not as nuanced as it could be I mean, I do think it's interesting that within the social Enterprise agenda You know depending where you are the solidarity and the cooperative Movement or where the social is I is it external or internal to the organization have different Levels of priority so You know, if you if you speak about social enterprise in Italy or Spain, you know, the cooperative movement is actually You know, you know central but You know in the case of the UK I think largely you could say a lot of it has been around, you know The kind of almost the professionalization of the social sector in the United States It's been very much this kind of Ultraman or solving other people's problems. So so I think it's interesting that that solidarity element I think is By its nature because it is actually more equal. It doesn't have the same kind of Powerful cheerleaders and so sometimes although it's Huge it doesn't necessarily get the same level of You know profile so is there a Because you mentioned Spain is there a similar like cooperatives or even platform cooperatives as people are tend to say nowadays Movement locally in New Zealand as strictly speaking starts from the Social sector owning their own, you know co-ops and then evolving to trade with the market No, not really at the moment. I mean, New Zealand's got quite a deep history in cooperatives, but a lot of them have been Really pragmatic Structures, you know, which reflects agricultural and agricultural economy I and I think, you know, have been less Advanced by a, you know, sort of a solidarity or power agenda So, I mean with the with the exception of things like, you know, Lumio or what have you I think we were probably Yeah, we don't we don't really have momentum in that movement the I mean, I think again I mean you mentioned this of the indigenous I mean, I think within my redevelopment the it works differently, but there's a sense of You know how community ownership plays out in those contexts, which is analogous, but but different I see so yeah, so I mean so I mean one of the things I've been kind of watching from a distance that has been The you know, the you know, the community finance the community shares the cooperative movements sort of happening But you know in the UK as there's been a retreat of a lot of services, you know basic shops leisure centers pubs You know from remote areas and actually there's been a real renaissance in community ownership there and While we have had some of that decline we haven't had that same level of Response as as as yet at least I see so that there remains one of the areas that could be developed more I think so. Yeah Yeah, because when I just before I entered the cabinet I was visiting New Zealand and Living with the and Spiro Lumiere folks and and there is a very strong cooperative solidarity Seen there and and they told me very explicitly that that's not a norm and it's like they were seen as Somewhat idealist and it's not the norm. This is enterprise sector. So so perhaps that could be developed more All right. Thank you so much that that's a very complete picture Yeah, I mean if there's even some sort of weird stuff with our legal forms around cooperatives Which actually don't necessarily lend themselves that the cooperative legislation is quite specific, you know in terms of I think you have to have like You know 50% of members as active producers or active purchasers So it it while you can you can do sort of legal acrobatics to generate governance models Which are analogous it it's not it's not necessarily straightforward Anyway, but that that's the detail but sometimes the details are you know Determined, you know why something happens or not? Yeah, it does matter because otherwise It's actually easier to have a closely held company with its own, you know rules that Behaves exactly the same way, but it's not constrained by law. We're seeing that in Taiwan here. Also, we have we had a very active cops movement about 25 years ago, but there is one entire generation of people simply selecting the company form But doing more or less the same thing, but then the term social enterprise is like 100 times more visible and recognizable than cops So so now it's now everybody's is kind of just going through the such enterprise umbrella But that does dilutes the computational and solidarity somewhat. Yeah, so that's our situation here, too Yeah, I mean, I mean, I think One of the things that I'm absorbing which has already happened in more established markets And I think is always a risk in any developing market is as you get momentum there's a risk of fragmentation as well and You know, there's almost a tribal sense of within a very broad banner of people using business models to you know affect social change or community benefits There are a huge diversity of ideologies values interests you know and and and I think trying to Hold that space without homogenizing it is is kind of a real strategic challenge for sector building and You know, so, you know this idea about the the politics of of the social enterprise movement actually being Something if not managed well is it's actually really disabling because you know human nature likes to just Correct, yeah, yes. Yeah, I used to use this slide Personally, sorry, it's in Chinese, but I hope the emoji goes through So this is social and this is enterprise And then this is about Solidarity governance And then this is about the environment And I used to and still do explain the social enterprise or social innovation sector as the link between the four different concerns or Excess of innovation and they do interact in a way in an ecosystem because that the more the social sector Involves in the solidarity and participation in enterprise the more enterprises environmentally conscious and improve the social conditions and so on but I used this to to explain that it You don't have to do all four things at once as long as it's in the Diamond it's still considered part of the broad social enterprise sector Yeah They're very good. Yeah So, so, yeah So so you you've come across a definition here But I don't see percentages though. Yeah No, we've we've deliberately kind of avoided You know put in figures on those things I I personally don't believe it's helpful I mean, it's not even accurate So, I mean, for example, if you take an organization that's working in a sub market Condition they might be, you know, selling a good or a service at a sub market rate so therefore you know, they they Distributed rather than having to redistribute and Yeah, so I mean, I think those things are on I'm helpful And again, this goes into a bit of the tribal stuff between And I think it's actually been bound up with the DNA of the social enterprise world forum as it's evolved, you know in terms of being quite quite definite around the Sort of more non-profit if you like aspect of the social enterprise models and I get I can understand that I understand why they do it But I don't think it's helpful in terms of You know, I think it's kind of re-litigating politics of the past right trying to redefine the ones of the future so this whole idea that really Is Long as there is Although it sounds looser as long as there's an integrity as long as there's an explicit intent Then an integrity between that intent the governance the strategy and the accountability Right then then, you know, that's the important thing and really different models are fit for different purposes and if you are talking about something which is a Social community enterprise for a specific community to do a specific job in a specific place then You know that kind of trust and you know sort of model and you know, you know There's no need to distribute, you know, sort of, you know profits because the thing is just there to provide But if you've got a crack in product which you need to get the right type of capital to scale You know across the world then that fundamentally means you have to have a business model which facilitates that So but it doesn't it doesn't necessarily mean the the intent is is degraded as a result So I think, you know, some of these kind of these boundaries have been Ultimately about managing risk So become ideological and I think it's important to Renegotiate, you know, some of our thinking around around that right in Taiwan, there's even Social enterprises that has founded a charity and a cooperative and it's founding a company So that they can, you know, use the correct shell To to attract either investment or donation or whatever as as the organization grows But they use the same name for the three sub organizations, which is quite creative Yeah Yeah, so this this notion of intent rather than sort of artificial constraints Right, so so the majority of their income through trade as part of the definition here So it doesn't strictly says 50% plus or or it does Well, I mean, okay, so one of the problems I guess what we're This is almost a guideline in so much as like What we're trying to say here and this is also Recognizing that there is an audience here, which is potentially not, you know aware or Informed about this. So we're basically trying to say these things actually do have viable business models Yeah, so that's almost like the key message but we also recognize that there are some very good social enterprises which are You know, we've been a larger charitable or not-for-profit organization where there is a district You know, right? Yeah, exactly. Yes. Yeah itself viable Yep, but um, but not the larger one But you know, but the body might do say yes. Also, it's sort of You know, there's a nuance here in terms of there may be a completely viable business model Which is then best place to receive grant to do stuff Which is market because it can actually make that money go further because it those grants don't have to fund the whole operational rights in amplifier for the grants. Yeah, exactly. So again, it's just like it's it's You know, you can stack these things in different ways And I mean, it's great if you have the opportunity to have the conversation You know the time to have the conversations with people, but sometimes just gonna try and find shortcuts, right? So the trade may also be like grant amplifier Yeah, and and the majority of their income may also be considered as part of the larger organization or not Right. So you can slice it any which way. So the majority here is mostly to to convey that it survives in the market No, it's not saying that, you know, next year if it drops to 40% then it's not such enterprise anymore Yeah, okay. I mean, I think I think the thing is this like The the business itself has to be viable You know, whether that business is nested in a set of other activities which are funded in different ways But what you don't want is a business model which requires just, you know, an ongoing Subsidy, you know, yeah, so it basically says viable this model But in languages that it's easier to explain. I think yeah, I see cool so and I think this Displotot is very useful Essentially because the the trade or down trade is the easier to tell one and the and the next one which you explained by predistribution already resonates with the various legal structures here because as you said, it's not a Hot definition. It's mostly a guideline. So yeah, it's very useful Right and here is this huge SDG like Yeah, and that's I mean, so this is You know is plagiarized in many sense, but and but referenced but I thought what was really good about the Scottish social enterprise strategy they released at the end of last year was they sort of located social enterprise within a number of wider meta trends and So I think the purpose of putting this in again, it's almost going back to the thing I was saying on the front page was like this is this is not a niche thing. It's actually a dynamic a Dynamic model which is being enabled or driven By a number of other bigger things in the world And again, hopefully sort of you know sort of getting people in power to see that there are things here where they They you know that resonate with them where they might not have previously connected social enterprise to mm-hmm, right Right in the traditional European context, you do see governance of political social economy and sustainability that those are very Commonplace, but I'm interested to see their technology is Fraised in a way that says, you know with technology. There's now more connected communities and therefore more community oriented Social prices. I think this is a very powerful statement And also it's easier to keep everybody accountable and so on but that applies to the entire social sector Yes enterprises Yeah, and I mean and you know that accountability I think goes in a number of ways one It's that traditional idea of like You know being held to a to account so you better sure you're doing good it's also an enable as in like we are able to measure things that we previously haven't been able to and And in that sense, it's a value driver as well As Ian it's easier for people to see how much value or impact they're making Well, I think You know, so I mean our our government specifically is making a big play around the use of you know data in informing How to target the provision of services, but that will also play into how those services are then funded So there's there's a sense of if you can better appraise where baselines are and then You know what the changes are against that baseline you can actually value the effectiveness of Interventions in different ways so that I mean the environmental Senses doing doing this, you know, I mean things like the carbon markets, you know in that sense, you know You know technology as an enabler to do things which are large-scale and complex You know satellite technology was essential for anything to do with forestry in terms of the carbon market So, you know and you know likewise now I mean the big data thing is you know that to be enabled to drill down literally to you know a kid in a School in any given town and you know and how they are interacting with different services over time therefore sort of getting a sense of you know sort of You know what what's been effective or not Right, so so I think you know that that that sort of the the data pick the technology and the data piece is us to enable to appraise the the Effectiveness of different interventions in new ways and that will inevitably drive new market models that I completely agree though But why is this specific to you to to trading? Trading charities to social enterprises. I mean that isn't it true for all the social sector Whether they're just charities or or people doing volunteering work. They are all now equipped with smartphones and other data gathering Sensors and in the future IOT technologies that will Inevitably inform policy process. So what part in the you know You know viable business motive Place in interacting with the data driven trend or it doesn't really well Well, I mean because I guess what I'm saying is that Organisations which previously would never have seen themselves as social enterprises effectively they were grant funded because people hoped they would deliver stuff But didn't know Will before they know it actually be working in environments where they're being directly financially rewarded for the success of their interventions All right, so organizations which didn't exist in markets Will find themselves in a performance, you know, so that be effectively trading You know, you know, so, you know, so, I mean, I think there is a sense of Social enterprise is not just a sort of thing of social people wanting to do social enterprise themselves I mean as soon as government, I mean, this is outside of technology But as soon as government for example says rather than us Deliver services to people with disabilities rather than us contracting someone else to deliver those services Go into the point where we're actually Delegating budgets to service users who are then choosing who they purchased their own services from You've gone from the situation where once effectively people to saw them as kind of service providers to actually You know engage with customers in in a competitive environment So sometimes an enterprise is not an enterprise for an autonomous decision It's just the market conditions change around an organization and find yourself having to trade where they really likes it or not I see what that line of thinking eventually leads to like universal basic income and so on Yeah, well potentially but I think I well unless there is a radically brave and bold government. I see that's I think I think I think there'll be an evolution of the way things work before we get there Like like gradually not like the night of course. Yeah, I think this is actually very insightful. So As you said the NGOs or MPOs with transition To this kind of social enterprise market business model not because they they think it's cool or hip But the market conditions created around them makes it easier for them to do the transition Well, not just easier. It makes it compulsory potentially And so I think you get to an interesting situation there in terms of who as as citizens who do we want? Succeeding in those environments Do we do we want, you know a large international corporate in the way that you know a lot of those corporates are running prisons now who May want to do a good job to the letter of the contract But essentially are still driven by a product the profit motive or do we want organizations being able to successfully compete? Contracts but are still driven from a place of care and compassion Right, you know, so I so so there's suddenly a real keen interest in making sure that mission led organizations are have the capability to succeed When they're in direct competition with organizations, which are driven by different incentives Right, so but that's switching from the government doing businesses with well businesses To businesses with a purpose and then eventually social enterprises, but what about the other way? What about the Subsidies that the government are issuing to to local MPOs or regional MPOs? Are there any market forces that makes them social enterprises? Well, no, I mean, I think this is this is why it's a contested space rat Because government may actually dependent who the government is might be less interested in who delivers the contract You know, they will be going out and it will be like, okay, we're contracting for, you know Door delivered meals for the elderly and an organization which was set up as a charitable organization It's been doing this for years on a kind of rollover contract It's suddenly going head-to-head with an international corporate Which says we'll install a microwave and deliver you 30 frozen meals a month Mm-hmm. So, I mean, I think, you know, this is again, it's a site So There'll be a challenge of adaptation from traditional service providers There's an opportunity for new mission-led organizations to do things in good ways Mm-hmm And then there is the challenge from big established commercial outfits who are just expanding, you know To the list of things that they do so whether we run old people's homes or prisons or kind of Maybe we run them in the same kind of way. I don't know So I think it's a really sort of there's a key question here as you know that outsourcing agenda I mean, it's already here but continues Who do we want to enable to be able to win those contracts? People that are doing it from a position of care or people who are doing it from a position of proper Right and you can either make it compulsory as in only those vendors who is a clear social mission enters the bid at all Or you can do it, you know more more gradually saying, you know Enterprises with the social mission gets this much Consideration when we're selecting bids and things like that. Yeah, so it needs it needs sophisticated procurement You know, which I mean cuz I don't think you can I don't think you can discriminate necessarily who goes for contract Sometimes I mean what what do you say? You know, you need a certain legal form We're actually considering that at this very moment But but it's more the case of I suppose You know make it being more explicit around the type of services that you're procuring. So for example, if you're procuring You know, doors, you know doorstep meals to the elderly Maybe you're not just procuring the food service, but you're also making sure you're explicit about procuring the huge face-to-face contact on a regular basis and the Supporting care which press around, you know, so I think you know that you can't rely on government to be you know Sophisticating that way because we've seen in other sectors that they end up outsourcing based on price Not necessarily value And I mean I can remember good conversations with colleagues in the UK that You know spoke around Quite cynically that social enterprise was used as the acceptable edge of an outsourcing agenda of Conservative government Whereas in Scotland you had a far more intelligent in conversation around who is best You know which organizations are best to deliver what an economy or a social economy and it's not to say that the big Corpus don't have a role they definitely do but also recognizing that other organizations may be You know be better placed and also create longer more value for the community and more value for the taxpayer if you're able to Compete so so I think Yeah, there's there's whole heaps of stuff around sort of like the way we set up the markets Rather than just build the enterprises and that goes back to this kind of infrastructure building That's not just stop not just about supporting entrepreneurs and organizations. It's about trying to create all the conditions Which kind of make you know Generate the maximum value for society Thank you. That's just extremely clear. So so if it's Transpareness and accountable in some way then there will be less Criticisms of people saying, you know, it's just justifying as or similar people will see then those organizations mission Is actually aligned with the government's mission when doing this kind of procurement Yeah, it's less subjective, right? I mean, it's just like, you know, more full-value accounting what will enable You will it will actually differentiate, you know, different different services, right? So accountability in this sense is more of a, you know, a publicly Disable kind of value alignment than the traditional way of, you know, answering every inquiry from the parliament Yeah, exactly. So that's I'm saying like one part of it is about that kind of traditional public accountability But the other thing is the value driver as in if you can demonstrate the value you're creating That's actually a real enabler and of course the third part about data measurement is actually it's good management information And every social enterprise should be incredibly keen to actually understand Like it's having so it can improve its its work, right, right? So so again a data-driven Justification not just to the value but also to the policies around that value. Okay. Well, thank you. That's very very Powerful, um, yeah, I think the other ones are are pretty commonplace The circular economy is getting a lot of attention by now Yeah, is there anything you would like to say? Nothing else in there as I say I think they are generic not least because I say I I I took a lot of them directly from the Scottish word Well, certainly they wouldn't say Rangatira Tenga Yeah Rangatira Tenga, which is basically the it's the principle of self-determination for for Maori people. Okay so so Yeah, I see in your agenda design and your and also actually in the Event that I attended in New Zealand. There is a lot of dedicated space dedicated rituals I would say even and dedicated conversations with the Subjects of Maori. I would say worldview and not just people So is that how does it tie into social enterprise? Yeah, well, I mean that's a conversation that is being had we have been doing Quite a bit of work recently of search enterprise in the the Maori context and what's been clear has Maori do want to are interested but also wants to Take it apart and put it back together in their own understanding values and image. So There's a Maori term called co-papa, which is the way of doing effectively, you know, and and so Social enterprise with co-papa Maori is one of the conversations now It's a site. We don't want just another, you know, Western idea foisted upon us, you know, you know Sort of a more, you know, well-intended colonialism, but it's still a colonization of ideas So, I mean, I saw we we've learnt the hard way in some respects But there is a there is a lot of energy and interest in social enterprise But it has to be reinterpreted to come from a place which is owned by Maori So that's going to be a really sort of interest and dynamic. I think to the upcoming world forum Okay, cool. I'll be sure to attend as much as I can because we're just working on the transitional justice with indigenous people here also and They are also voicing that, you know, none of the SDGs are indigenous generated So they really need to be nativeised in a way in their respective cultures. So that would be very interesting This one is I think just factual. Yeah, I mean that the point of this slide is really just sort of building confidence to You know politicians here that this isn't something which is dreamed up in You know, you know, you know in a backwater in New Zealand So, I mean there is probably issues of rassity and you know any number of these statements But again the the purpose is is really just to Give a sense of momentum and scale Sure And and so the barriers Yeah, so so this is probably the stuff which is you know most specific and of of interest in terms of New Zealand in a development context Like anywhere there has been social enterprise Social community enterprise for forever really or at least, you know 300 years the Maori would say much much longer In New Zealand, but what we haven't had Has been this more intentional or formalized approach to the support and development of social enterprise so While Some organizations have done well You know, we it's been inefficient and we haven't been realizing the full potential of our people and the full potential of The sector so what we're basically saying here, you know in terms of there are a number of barriers here where We're not asking government to leave but government has to be an innate because there are certain things that only government has the Capability and resources to support and it is a Traditional role of business to step in in market building Where is of market failure, right? So the we here refers to Akina Yes, it does there so Some of this is quite Akina centric and I guess We can only really, you know, we didn't consult on this document It was our document so we can only really speak my point of view But I think it's also fair to say in terms of sector development. We probably Have a fairly Unique insight in terms of we've been doing this for, you know, longer than what else we've crossed the country and You know, we've had the The scale I supposed to at least have any number of learning experiences you've given us sort of an ability to sort of Bring some of these sort of insights together Right, but but I mean this line is basically saying there are more than 700 organizations meeting Akina's services, right? Yes All right, so it's more like, you know, this is a growing sector and then it has grown exceeding Akina's ability to provide That's right. I mean so we We know how many we've worked with we know we can't reach everyone and we know we're not even We don't know everyone as well So there are there's who we work with those that we can't work with and then those we don't even know so So there's it's that sort of sense of You know, there's real kind of capacity and underserved demand here to work into I see so So because you've talked about consultation I understand that the the statement and more broadly speaking this year's Governmental action plan. There's a 500 million NZ dollars or something like that the input is that over a year or over more No, so yeah, so the government two months ago announced an investment into sector development of five point five Yes, right, which is bigger than I think that's been on the table before but it's still relatively modest You know, well, it's still small. It's still peanuts really compared to you know and that is over It's really over three years for over four financial years Right and and I mean that that that investment really came as a direct result of us beating a path to the Prime Minister's door and pitching him and saying You know, your government departments across the board are Increasingly interested in this area, but you have a coordination and an implementation problem You know, you cannot lead on this so You benefit from it and you're already engaged in it But you do not have the capacity to coordinate and lead this right So if you invest into sector development and work with a strategic partner, you know, not only will you? build a sector out there You're also enable government to Build or you know determine its own coordinated approach. Yep. So this is addressing barrier seven Uncoordinated government action and like if enabling policy So so this investment is entirely going to the social enterprise sector But in the form of various different ministries or is all in this It's an external investment It is there for a strategic partner to be resourced and resource key sector development as you know key key activities related to sector development. I see I see so it's external partner acting to Kind of interface with governments Yeah, to be a to be a primary intermediary effectively I see I see and You know and without doubt we see ourselves as that organization But there will be a competitive tender process They might not have been if we hadn't been so close to an election, but we but everything becomes politicized before an election so that there will be very very shortly, but there will be a competitive process but We also I mean up. We were keen to say that that five point five is not a finite amount We believe that that five point five if government basically as it has puts it down That will facilitate co-investment from the corporate philanthropic local government sectors So we we said look if we if we were the steward of that resource We could multiply that by three or four times Right, you know, so basically to increase the war chest You know up to about 15 to 20 million over that time period and we and it may not be The philanthropic sector for example paying in in one lump sum like government, but it will be more about co-investment on of different Activities which refer to the interest of those different those different stakeholders No, that's the the amplifier impact effect that you were just referring to So that's great. That's great. And I'm glad that it's a focused external sector because around three years ago Taiwan passed a three-year plan on social enterprise development roughly exactly the same amount of money but but it was channeled through various different ministries and There's effects pretty good effects in each of the ministries, but there's very little horizontal Coordination after the the transition of the minister with a portfolio from yen in the previous Cabinets, so there's like half a year where this plan keeps running, but none of the ministries know what the other ministries are doing Yeah, beyond that. I think there's some really good strategic governments why government shouldn't do it One it misses the opportunity for leverage, you know, you know, like, you know, very rarely would you know Philanthropic be willing to give money government to do exactly a third independent party can leverage and the other thing is around effectively Credibility, you know independence And I think also the convenient power, you know, government always should be at the table in a capacity But it cannot necessarily be the convener because it compromises its own position. That's exactly right Yes, government turns up everyone would be pointing the finger and wanting something from it You know if it's you know, whereas an independent party does it it can reframe that kind of though those relationships as a anarchist completely agree and also Yeah, I think it makes sense for the government of my why I still exists to to endorse this kind of External sector development, but when it owns or as you said convenes it and then it does lose Credibility without very strong leadership like if it's the national agenda, perhaps, but it's not the national agenda at that point And I also think there's a sense and if this may be different depending on the capability within government, but There's a sense if government has to lead it almost has to assume it knows what to do Whereas if it if it's an you know enables another party to lead it can actually go through its own design process You know and actually be part of a learning journey to understand its role rather than to be seen to we're gonna do a BNC so I so I think there's a sense of There were so many upside for government not being in that position And although it finds it difficult to let go of control sometimes You know like there's a much bigger prize if it can Right, but but are you still? like including career public servants in the dialogues and the process in Absolute absolutely and what would be if we won the the contract to be the supplier Right from the beginning we'd be wanting to set up a an adaptive governance model Which would hopefully and I'm not saying we're gonna achieve this But what we will angle for is to say Let us set up the that you know the governance of this up three year program On a basis where we set out our high-level strategic objectives and then we have a policy of complete Transparency, but an ability to change You know our plans and our approaches based on the reality of you know what we see So I think you know that adaptive governance model would actually give rich Learning to government and give it a far better input into the policies or leave us that it can pull to More public good. So I take it to mean that you will say monthly or quarterly Build a feedback cycle and review the goals just like a traditional agile development. Yeah I think I think you'd probably want it monthly. I think you'd want it quite close And I think you'd what you would want to do you'd actually and try and identify senior officials Who can effectively be champions within the system? You know and so maybe I mean if I had At least off the top of my head a perfect world. I might go for three deputy chief executives He won't get a chief executive, but you could get three Dce's maybe one from you know a Environmental social and one from a kind of you know cross agency be a treasury or a kind of Minister and cabinet's office or we've got the social investment agency and if you could convene You know informed Progressive senior officials, you know to that table who can actually then drive stuff through government In terms of what comes out of that kind of adaptive governance. So I think you'd get a really good result What that does sounds great, but why would the ministry's devote as much resources if they don't have control over the process Well, the advantage the advantage of here of going all the way up to the the PM Was it was the PM who directed the spend? So it doesn't belong to any agency So there is a lead commissioning agency, but it is doing it on behalf of whole of government So it's directly PM like intervened Structure, so I actually think we kind of got lucky here and we may not I mean Government is very good at snatching defeat out the the jaws of victory, but Because we went we got up to the most powerful level We kind of got ahead of the bureaucracy Mm-hmm. Yeah, and that's actually framed this in a kind of More of a kind of holistic government approach then, you know, which I think, you know stops Further down the line sort of one agency saying I have to own this completely and it should be done You know with our with our interests in mind and other agencies going well This is nothing to do it with us so we won't buy into it because this is such a systems issue It really has to come from that kind of a cross-agency place. I think I see what this is very clear and Yeah, I think yeah, there's more trends in victory done it being snatched. I think for this plan not knowing anything about your political situation, but I think I think that this does Lower the risk of any individual participation agency over the course of three years. Yeah, I think that there really helps And this I think I've got most of the factual Yeah, it's not just it kind of at the point of this slide was just to inform MPs that this again hasn't just happened There's been a progressive story Right and this this outlines basically our road map So we're basically saying three year program. You'd kind of have four work streams So three of them are the kind of trifecta, you know thinking around building capability and supporting talent The second one is enabling finance environment and the third is this kind of market access be that around consumers procurement This more nuanced area of you know payments for results or impact payments What kind of IP are you looking at when you're saying transferring So What we mean there is actually developmental IP So for the last sort of five and a half years our Kina has been delivering development programs and services So we've got workshops. We've got community development models. We've got accelerators. We've got services We've got investment readiness, you know In in bigger ecosystems, you know, you have a more specialized intermediaries But because we're small and there was nothing here Exactly The edge or if you do up here that you don't get enough deal So so we actually I think we again we had the advantage of although it had its challenges We created quite sort of an integrated model which kind of made sense. Right, but I think going forward If we got this work, we would start to would effectively move away from being a retailer And look to become more of a wholesaler, right? So you're a scaling out yourself. Yeah So what we'd want to see as there's momentum. We are seeing local hubs, you know cultural thematic Support organizations pop up So our role would rather than delivering stuff ourselves would be to try and identify those capability building organizations and help them develop effective practice and connect them to each other Right. So yeah, so the end of three years You know a success might be a network of 20 different support organizations across the country which were embedded in their place their communities their thematic areas of specialization their cultural orientation And we're there all the time. I mean because one of our problems we do work in the regions But we're in that sort of old-age problem of development where we fly in and we fly out Drive out We've tried to correct that but inevitably if you want to have really successful local ecosystems The support has to be part of that. It has to be always there exactly So we so we fully recognize Strategically that success after three years is this kind of network of support rather than just a kind of McDonald's Business development Okay. Yeah, personally, I'm I'm traveling with all the different Ministries and agencies in Taiwan engaging with social enterprise, which may be seven or eight different ministries Every two weeks to one of the regional social enterprise clusters or centers There were like four or five of them and I think every region really grows very differently And the more the more we delegate the community building Into the local ecosystem the more variety we will get a result because the social problems and the social issues in every city Is really different and but if we we just sit here in the capital city in Taipei and and kind of force through markets and policies all the social enterprise to look exactly the same as At some point that South Korea did then then we will get very good solutions to certain issue of problems But we'll never discover any other issues of problems. Yeah I mean that kind of trying to drive uniformity is an antithesis to enabling innovation, right? And I think you want diversity, but you also want what you don't want is variability in quality So I think you know while you want to celebrate diversity your Counterbalance is actually connectivity between peers So, you know, so I think a big part of this is not just support You know enabling individual organizations, but making sure there's a healthy and supported peer network between those organizations Because they will smooth out their practice by you know through interaction Right completely agreed. That's great. That's great. So the quality assurance standards refers not just to the Governance or the business model, but the whole thing, right? Provide in so on so I think quality should be something across the board where you've indicated it on there That's really talking around as this gets to scale if you want to get you know Basically scaled market transactions. How do buyers know that they're actually dealing with a real, you know So, I mean it could be things like like, you know, b-corp certification Or it could be a new legal form, you know, which can act as a shortcut or it could be You know sort of some kind of, you know National body doing some kind of you know sort of annual kind of accreditation. So it's really trying to make sure How do you manage risk but enable scale, right? So this is more about the the form of governance Not the product of services Which is more like the P&A work guaranteed way that you you just mentioned. I Mean here I'm talking it specifically around transactions. So this is less around the capability. This is you know, you know You get more successful social enterprise activity if you get more trading activity That trade and activity comes from a lot of people which aren't actually directly connected to social enterprises and may not know So things like how do you give confidence to consumers? You know, you know things like fair trade held in social procurement where Bigger private and public sector organizations may have preferred supplier status Or want to procure for social or community benefit within their procurement causes How can they do that in an efficient way where they may not have that capability within themselves to raise social impact? So so I think quality assurance there is Managing risk and enabling efficient transactions. I think it's a more like organic farming labels and things like that Yeah, cool. And we're at the last light Yeah, and so so that's you know, the you know, the event coming up and and I would say I mean it's It's been a huge piece of work for us, but we always intended it to be in so much It was never about an event. It was always a sector building play you know, so the the activity that's gone up to date the the kind of the energy the Alignment the conversations the connections the learning that will happen at the event and then the momentum into legacy afterwards You know, so it's not an event. It's It's a catalyst as far as we see it. Well, that's great. That's great. Yeah I hope I can help in whichever way and It looks like that you've got this Local network as well as your government networks are really connected at this point So, yeah, I'll just see how I can help. Yeah. No, we'll look forward to me new Audrey I'm Richard Bartlett described you as the smartest person he's ever met. So Look forward to having more conversation. Okay, cool. Well, thank you for your time. It's Thank you. I'm more than an hour now. So yeah, thank you. And so I'll publish the recording if it's okay with you Yeah, absolutely. Okay, cool. That'd be great Thank you. Bye