 Welcome to Free Thoughts from Libertarianism.org and the Cato Institute. I'm Aaron Powell. And I'm Trevor Burris. Our guest today is comedian Jeremy McClellan. How'd you get started in comedy? Okay, so I mean basically I was sort of an angry guy. I was really intense and would get into arguments with people all the time about politics and culture and things like that and I didn't have like a creative outlet for it. Like I was always clever but my friends were work comedians and they were like you should try it and so I did. This is when you were in college or something? No, no, no. This was like four years ago and I'm pretty new. So what did you do before that? I worked with people with disabilities. I worked for the Charleston County Disabilities Board. So I was the trainer of the caregivers on how to interact with people with disabilities. So it sounds like you would say that your comedy and your desire to even do comedy stemmed directly from your political beliefs? Yeah, I mean you don't want to be preaching. You don't want to be like, well I have beliefs and then I want to try and make them funny but that's never what you want to do with comedy. But there is a, yeah, I mean it is something that was an artistic expression, artistic avenue for stuff I thought and like passions that I had and it was actually helpful as opposed to just arguing with people. Lynn, we'll take the other side of the opening question. How did you come to libertarianism? So yeah, it depends, I mean I'm broadly libertarian but it started, I had people who were close to me who were immigrants who ended up getting deported and that was a big real change because it was just like, okay, so why is there this bureaucracy that gets to decide whether people can work here or be here? So that sort of led me to things and then obviously, I was already very hardcore civil libertarian and then it just sort of, I ended up in the fold and it just kind of, you know, blossomed but I don't necessarily, you know, I'm not extremely ideological so I don't think ideologically, I just think sort of, I have a collection of beliefs about things that everyone already knows and those put together sort of, you know, put me in the fold of being libertarian. And maybe that actually helps with the comedy compared to someone who came into libertarianism by reading all of Hayek's work, for example, it sounds like it was great. Yeah, I don't know if people actually, you know, I mean, do people actually become libertarian by like adopting first principles and they're like, well, let's find out what those principles, you know, results in. That would be me to larger extent. Yeah, that would probably also be me. Which I'm not very funny, we're pretty weird outliers. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if that's very common. I think people generally have affections and they, you know, end up with a, you know, like a bunch of beliefs about the proper role of state power and a lot of times it comes from personal experience and their identities and things like that. And it sort of blossoms into like sort of being roughly and then they sort of a lot of people will then try to reverse engineer a political, a like a foundation that, that like, that applies to those things. Like let's find the foundation that leads to stuff I already believe. And I find that pretty common. So it, but it seems that given the way that you got into it, that the political element, or at least that, I mean, your ideas and what you want to say, because you said you were kind of a ranting person, is an important part of what you do in the sense that like you, by judging yourself and your effectiveness on your own standards, that you maybe not, not just if you're funny, but if you're actually making people think is something that you want to be doing. Yeah, absolutely. If you kind of line up the policy areas that we do at Cato or the various kinds of things that might fall under broadly libertarianism. There's like the, the happy optimistic ones, like, you know, free market economics creates wealth and progress and, you know, the future is bright. And then there's the double down sandwich from Kentucky Fried Chicken. Yes. Things like this or that new chicken taco bell thing. Me with meat. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. It's just not that good actually. But then there's the, the grindingly depressing side, which is the immigration stuff and the, a lot of the foreign policy and, and so it sounds, I mean, a lot of your, a lot of what you talk about is in that grindingly depressing side. Yeah, yeah. But, but it's also in defense of something that already exists. I mean, there already does exist, like, you know, peaceful interactions between cultures and, you know, immigration already exists, interactions between people of different, of different countries already exists. And those things exist and are wonderful and, you know, religions coexist all the time, you know, for the, for the most part. And then there are the enemies of that. And so I don't necessarily see it as depressing. I think it can be depressing if you see what you're defending as something that exists in the future. Like, so there's this, you know, this utopia in the future where, you know, I guess if you're like a really hardcore libertarian, it's like the stateless utopia of like, you know. Seasteading. Yeah. Seasteading will help. Well, see, you wouldn't need to see stead if you were, if there was utopia, because then you would just stay on land if you wanted to. It, that, that would be true in the future. And even like, you know, Marxist, it's like, okay, there's this, there's this thing in the future that we need to defend. And like, there's a lot of like really hardcore Muslim people who are like, you know, there's this caliphate in the future. We need to defend, but like, you know, and even, even like Christians, like I'm a Christian and like there's ways of talking about like the kingdom of God that are like, okay, it's in the future. There's heaven in the future. We need to like make that happen. And I think that's very destructive. I think all of those types of things are very destructive. I think that, you know, you need to be defending something here now. And so I think the grinding stuff, the like, you know, violation of civil liberties, well, those are, those are violations of, of wonderful things that are currently happening now. Those are invasions from the state on really, you know, beautiful things that are currently happening. And so I think that celebrating, you know, that like, you know, defending those things doesn't have to be like grindingly and, you know, depressing. So is that then how you go about? Cause so your Facebook feed, which all of our listeners should follow Jeremy on Facebook because his stuff's hilarious and fascinating and insightful. But a lot of it is making jokes, finding humor in drone bombings. Yeah. Or, you know, and so how do you, how do you go about making that kind of stuff funny, making, you know, or finding jokes, ways to make jokes about these horrific things? Because often we kind of stay away from that. Like there was that, you know, after September 11th happened, there was like the, you know, is comedy dead now? And, you know, the onion didn't publish for a little while. It was like inappropriate. So how do you, you weren't, you weren't allowed to joke about the shoe bomber. Yeah, yeah. Or anything like that. Maybe by the time we got to the underwear bomber, we were okay on that one. Yeah. But like the shoe bomber was like a few months after. Yeah. Yeah. And like, you weren't allowed to like, there was like too soon. And like, you know, no one was allowed to make the joke that like finally a Muslim achieved, like making everybody take their shoes off. Or I just, I knew those Reebok pumps had a fatal flaw in them. That was the one I just came up with. Do comedy for four years. And then eventually you get, you get good at making jokes. But I mean, it's sort of hard to explain. Do you think of people like George Carlin? He would seem to be the most obvious kind of influence. Yeah, I mean, I don't rant when I do, like when I do stand up. I mean, it's just all jokes. But I mean, he certainly does. And I don't, I don't really model myself after any one particular, any one particular comedian. But in terms of the kind of awareness that George Carlin was trying to make, trying to make a point. I mean, he wasn't just trying to be funny, it seems. And I mean, and yeah, and it just comes out of who you are. I mean, if you are really passionate about this kind of stuff, it's weird to like, it's weird to not have it influence your comedy at all. Like I have a, I have a friend who's a comedian, who's like really into conspiracy theories and like really believes them, like really into like info wars and stuff like that. And his comedy is not even anything close to that. And it's really weird. Like to me, it's really weird because I'm like, dude, why don't you talk about that kind of stuff? But he doesn't. He's just all like, you know, nice, nice comedy. And but for me, it's all one thing, like my comedy, my, my, my political viewpoints, my approach to religion and culture and how I make a living, like my entire life right now, finally, I think, is, is feels at least like one thing. You mentioned earlier that you're a Christian and that raises one of the kind of interesting things about your career right now, which is a white Christian guy who is big on the Islamic festival circuit. Yeah, I have, I have a lot of gigs with the Islamic festivals. Like there's there's only one, I think, festival that's it's it's Muslim Fest in Mississauga. But there's yeah, there's a lot of there's a lot of Muslims, you know, like like Muslim student associations are like, you know, big, big, big Muslim organizations that have me perform. Yeah. So how did that happen? I just started going viral in that community. And then I did some shows and then we're traveled and I had some big names, people really become fans and and recommend me. And so that's just sort of grew organically. What kind of reaction it not so much in terms of the crowd applause, but in terms of the fan interaction after from especially from the Islam community, the Muslim community, in terms of what you're offering them beyond laughs, do you get do you get some good feedback along those lines? Sure. Yeah. Like for example, any. Well, I mean, the the I guess what I'm trying to do is and I mean, besides just make people laugh and like because because they're people and they laugh and it's a good thing. So like besides that, as far as, you know, if you zoom out, there is, I think, I don't know if you've heard of the phrase the gray zone. So basically, ISIS's main goal is to destroy the gray zone of coexistence between the West and Islam. And that is also the goal of a lot of people on the right is to destroy that that murky, like complicated, you know, the everyday gray zone of coexistence that, you know, everyone has to be either, you know, either jihadists or they have to be extremists, like, you know, like the all right type, you know, very far right people. And the vast majority of people on on the planet are not those things. And they just they just coexist. And I think that defending that gray zone is extremely important. And, you know, if I can do that through comedy, then then I think that's, you know, that's very worthwhile. So you're fighting ISIS? I mean, I don't even mean that. Absolutely. Yeah, I have I have more. If you go by the the CIA's stats on who on how many people are members of ISIS, I have more followers than they do. So that's that's pretty that's pretty good. So yeah, I think we can win. But and then on the other side, because because you kind of I think it's a really good idea, the great concept, the gray zone, but then we have the alt-right and we have, of course, the big idiot in the room or at least in D.C. And so we have this issue. Trump is air looked at me quizzically as like, who's he talking about? And so we have this issue of of the all right. Also, once none of this kind of interaction whatsoever, right? Now, what kind of reaction have you received from? Let's just generally call them the alt-right. Oh, I mean, negative. I mean, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, which is weird. I mean, it's not weird when you realize what they're doing. But, you know, if you know, they believe that Islam and and and and Muslims are a threat to civilization that like Islam is inherently illiberal. And so OK, so let's say that's true. I don't think that's true, but let's say it's true. So then you have a few options. Number one is like genocide, right? Genocide or banning Muslims and Islam from the United States, right? Like, obviously, those are illiberal things themselves. And they are they would, you know, be declaring war. And you're an idiot if you if you if you want to do that. The other two goals. So I don't think those are those are those are viable. The other two goals is OK, so maybe your goal is to convert all Muslims away from Islam, right? Well, if that's your goal, then you should consult with missionaries whose job it is to, you know, witness and spread Christianity among among Muslims. And they hate Trump. They hate the alt-right. They're like, you are making our job incredibly difficult. Like, no Christian missionary is going on the Middle East, putting up cartoons of Muhammad like that is just insane. And so OK, so they're not doing that. Well, then the other goal is to promote and celebrate. Interpretations of Islam or most or, you know, actual Muslims who are liberal, who are, you know, who are committed to liberalism and libertarianism or whatever, or, you know, on the left, or, you know, Muslim feminists. Like, if you think that Islam is misogynistic, why are you going after and attacking Muslim feminists? Like, it's a bizarre kind of thing. Well, their goal is to destroy that grey zone. Their goal is to destroy the grey zone of coexistence that exists and that I think it's worth fighting for. And so, yeah, I've I mean, if you Google my name, like one of the first pages you get is like this page on like bare naked Islam about how I'm not funny and how they hate me and stuff like that. And it's I mean, it's not a sad thing because it's like those people aren't going to be my fans anyway. Like I didn't lose anybody by by, you know, falling out of favor with bare naked Islam. So I don't know the answer to your question. How then how can we either? You using comedy or just we in general, those people who want to maintain and strengthen the grey zone. How can that exist? We know we hire them. We we we, you know, work with them. I mean, like that's just that's just true in general. I think people naturally I had a post about this yesterday, but I think that people's behaviors are not really bigoted. Like people like if they cost something, then like, you know, bigotry tends to go away. Like, you know, if you poll Houston, there's like two million people in Houston, if you poll them, maybe 10 percent will say that Islam is a threat to civilization. That's 200,000 people. If you then go to like an anti-Muslim protest in Houston, it's like eight people. OK, so like just and then it's like nice outside on a Saturday. So there's really no reason why people shouldn't be there. Like, so it either means that they don't really believe it or they're like the worst National Guard ever. And they're like, OK, well, we're being invaded, but I do have to drop off Madison at soccer practice. And so I can't come like it's really weird. And so I think most people, I mean, even like the most racist people that I know, like the most Islamic people, you know, Islamophobic people that I know, they are they behave decently to people like of those like they have bad beliefs in their heads. But they don't actually try to like, I've never seen someone try to deport an immigrant like just physically like drag themselves like you find an immigrant next door, you go there. I mean, that does happen. Sometimes there are hate crimes and there are domestic terror groups taken to their own hands. Those people are a tiny, tiny part of the population. However, like half the population will vote to have someone else do it. And so, you know, the idea that I have is just like, you know, in economics, there's your revealed preference in your stated preference. And your stated preference for, I'm sure you know this, but like, you know, for listeners, your stated preference is like your Netflix Q. It's like the stuff you say you want to watch. And then your Netflix history is like all the stuff that you have. Like that's your revealed preference. So my stated preference is that I really want to watch documentaries. My revealed preference is that I want to watch. It's always setting in Philadelphia. Those are basically that's like the distinction. But government is the way that we enact our stated preferences. And so people in general, I think live in that gray zone. I mean, even people who like have bad thoughts or like have negative opinions, like they go and eat at immigrant, you know, at places that are made by immigrants. They will if they meet the right one, sometimes fall in love with someone who is who is an immigrant. Like all that stuff gets overpowered pretty easily once you. So, you know, you don't really have to encourage people. I mean, sometimes you do, but like, you know, to interact with people who are who are different than them. I think we just do. As you were saying this, something. Occurred me. I'm curious about, but let me try to talk this out because I'm not sure that the idea is all that clear in my own head. But so social media, which is has been, I mean, that's where people, when you're you're looking for racism and you're looking for evidence of the existence of the alt-right or is the point to social media. But social media strikes me as like a medium that is largely performative. Like we, you know, it's not really like we're not really projecting who we are. We tend to just take on roles. And so there's always the, you know, people get depressed because their friends always seem to be having a good time on Instagram. And why is my life not like that? But their friends lives aren't like that either. It's just what they're choosing to share. So I'm, I wonder this, putting that in the context of these of stated versus revealed preferences. If the social media performative aspect plays up the kind of stated preferences of racism, of Islamophobia and so on. Because people, it's, you know, you fall into roles that people are kind of naturally combative on social media, you know, like it's fun to get into arguments. It's trolling. And so how much of this, this rising wave of, you know, right wing ugliness isn't really real. It's just people kind of playing roles and having fun. On social media. Well, it's not real in a sense. So, I mean, okay. So yeah, those are, those are like cheap beliefs they have. They are, you know, performative type things. But the problem is that when they vote, so like that stuff spreads. And when you vote, that is the same thing. You're expressing a cheap belief. You are expressing that. And so you don't have to worry about like, I mean, so I don't think that with the rise in Islamophobia on the internet, I don't think that people should be extremely worried about like a giant rise in hate crimes. So like people actually going out there and doing it themselves. There is some, you know, I've talked to, I've talked to Muslims on who work for the FBI who are like, okay, there is a rise. There has been a rise, but it's not nearly as big as the media makes it out to be. You know, it's a combination of hysteria and hoaxes. And so, so I don't think people should be like terrified to go outside, you know, and because people are going to take it into their own hands, but they will vote. And they will support the government doing it. So even if it's performative online, I still think that people who like, let's say you're performing that you want to build a wall, right? And like some of that is because you think you should build a wall. Some of that is like because it feels cool to say build a wall and you know, it pisses people off to say build a wall so you do it. Okay. Well, that means that you're probably not going to yourself go and build a wall. You're not going to do anything. You're not going to donate to build a wall, maybe. But you will vote to have it build a wall and you'll be happy if the government does it. And you'll, you know, so I think it's real in the sense that it causes people to change their attitudes towards government. But I don't think it's real in the sense they're going to like go out there and do it themselves. What advantage does, does humor have to changing people's beliefs? And I mean, in two ways. A, comparatively to, you know, persuasive essays and things like this. And then B, does there an advantage that maybe Libertarian humor uniquely has or that there's a unique way that Libertarians can make perceptive observations that maybe a lot of people might agree with but not realize? Well, I don't know. I mean, I don't, I don't know if I do Libertarian humor. I don't like putting adjectives before, before comedy or anything. But I think that, I mean, it's sort of like saying Christian rock, like if you, if you define yourself like that, it's like your music is going to suck. But so trying to think. Well, for example, it, it struck me, I mean, regarding the first question was, yeah, what, what unique way can humor change people's beliefs compared to others? Okay, so yeah, I don't, I don't know if, I mean, humor, it's, it's good to like plant seeds and to break open people's misconceptions and make fun of things. It's, if, if you have a strong message in your comedy, then I feel like people realize it and their immune system kicks in and they reject it if they don't agree with it. So I think that, you know, your first goal should be fun, it should be to be funny. And your first goal should be to like explore issues and like way down the list is it to like, change someone's mind who is in there. And I mean, I don't, so you don't necessarily have people in the audience who are just like, I never thought of it that way. Now I believe that it's much more subtle and sort of behind the scenes in their, in their subconscious. And that's the second, the second part of the question was about, because I have, one reason I've enjoyed your stuff so much is because it has upset me to some extent why there weren't many libertarian comics. And it's not so much, I agree with you saying your libertarian comic is somewhat means you're probably going to suck, but that because we're somewhat, we, we aren't as biased about political parties, for example, and we're able to see the absurdities in government because I think, for example, that Dr. Strangelove is a wonderful libertarian comedic movie, but it's not trying to be. And now we've seen all this sort of mini shows have come out particularly like Veep and to some extent parks, parks and recreation. I mean, I think Veep is basically a documentary about it's about the most, it's the most accurate DC show and everyone thinks this stuff is funny and you shouldn't take government very seriously. But then of course, they do, which is right. Then of course they do, right. So you can enjoy Veep. And, and, you know, that's fine. Like, I mean, I would, you don't want people to, to like only only find you funny if you agree or if they agree with you. I mean, that's, that's death for art. People should be able to appreciate it because otherwise it's just propaganda and it's not art anymore. So, yeah, that's, that's interesting. I mean, I don't know, like, I think that there are, there are people who, yeah, I don't know. Well, I mean, they're always, yeah, no, but you're right. I mean, like, I remember when I was at the Students for Liberty conference, Stephanie Slade from Rees and tweeted that there's a guy on stage and he's actually funny. Yeah, exactly. And so I, and so I started putting actually funny type in Rees and magazine, actually funny in quotes and then Rees and as like, you know, next to my face on like posters and stuff like that. Like that was, that was my review from Rees and I mean, I don't know. I think that if you, if you set out to, I'm gonna, I have these principles and I need to make them funny and get my audience to convert to like, that's just awful. Like, and I think that, but I think that if you're funny, then it just sort of comes out. And if you're passionate about something that comes out. And I'm not necessarily passionate about, I mean, not like about an ideology, like I'm passionate about, like free immigration, and I'm passionate about, you know, ending war. And I'm passionate about, I mean, civil liberties and things like that. So those are the things that sort of animate my comedy. So. Do you have any favorite heckler stories? I figure there's any good alt-right heckling or of the sort? No, no, no, no, no, no. I mean, even like the alt-right, like, you know, you, if you meet someone who's in the alt-right, they're nice. Like in person, like everyone's nice in person. Like it's, people are just assholes online, like. And, you know, unless they're performing for someone else, they're generally nice. But I did make, there was a comedian who was a Trump supporter who, he wasn't very funny at all. And he would like sing songs on a guitar about like a terrorist blowing themselves up. And it was, like it wasn't funny. And they're like Trump supporters in the audience who didn't think it was funny. Like this guy was just like, he would come to the open mics. He wasn't getting booked or anything. And he would wear like a, like a propeller hat, like beanie thing on his head. Like carrot top or something. Yeah. Well, I mean something. It was weird. And so he performed that with his propeller hat. And then I was hosting. And so I got up after him. And I said, I love the idea that you were getting ready to come here. And then like, you're a Trump supporter and you were trying to decide which hat to wear. And you were like, well, I don't want to look ridiculous. So I'm going to wear this hat. And he got really, really upset and not in a normal way. Like he posted like every day on Facebook, something about me. He like got pictures of me on the internet, like off the internet and like posted like memes of me and like said that I was, he had this whole conspiracy that like I was the reason why he wasn't making it in comedy. Like it was a very bizarre thing. Like he was like I had nixed and like I'll book Trump supporters. Like if a Trump supporter is funny, I will book them on a show. Like that doesn't matter to me. But he was like, yeah. So he and some other people were just like, it became this very, very awkward thing. And I didn't respond. I had all my friends, they were responding. They were like, dude, this is making me look ridiculous. But he was like, I used to be a Marine. I have a gun and like all this stuff. And like it got really weird. And so that I think is the worst story that I have. And they just sort of fizzled out. And I remember I was like, let's get a beer. And I went and got a beer with him. And we talked it out and everything was fine. And then the next day, he was back posting again the exact same stuff. I was like, man, that is really strange. So that's like the weird story that I have. But for the most part, people are nice. Most people are not just really awful in person. In Trump's America, that seems like things are maybe going to change a little bit in that. I mean, we're three weeks into Trump's America now. We're in the third week? Yeah. We're recording this in the third week. So is that because you brought up this Trump supporter in this kind of charged atmosphere? Do you think it's different or is it just SSDD? What do you mean? Like, is it different now or is it just the same shit as we've had before? Like in terms of the inability to talk across the aisle to have this kind of hatred that you, that this guy manifested towards you, whether or not, you know, it's a different kind of situation where... Well, I have noticed that like I got a lot of hate mail before the election. And now after the election, it's mostly stopped. So I'm like, is it because they think they're winning? So they're like, we're going to lay off. Like, we don't have to do that anymore. So yeah, I don't really get that. Or maybe I just succeeded in banning all of them from my page. But I don't know. Well, there was one thing that I think is particularly interesting about Trump's America from the entertainment perspective, which is whether or not some of the people who are sort of traditionally comics, whether it's someone like Jimmy Fallon or I just used him as like a sort of a guy who's on, is going to spend too much time railing against Trump and themselves become political comedians in a way that kind of hurts their brand and their funniness. Yeah, I think that's definitely a danger. And the thing is that like, so I don't have a lot of faith in comedy's ability to change political outcomes. I mean, some people do. I think most comedians do because obviously if you're a comedian, you think you're really important. But I don't think that's true. It may be different now because Star Night Live, Trump watches it. And so they may be able to like get him to fire Sean Spicer just like I really think that's true. And so that's that's very different. But in terms of people were just like, you know, all last year, all we heard was like John Oliver destroys Donald Trump. And, you know, if if if John Stewart and Stephen Colbert had been on there, like it would have been the same thing, like this guy just just eviscerated Donald Trump. And none of it made a difference. Because most people who were watching it, you know, already agree with them. And it's not that big of a of a like it just doesn't have that much of an impact as you think. But that's not the only reason you do political comedy. You don't just do political comedy because you're trying to like make a big difference in changing people's minds. You also do it to, you know, just spread ideas and to to make people feel less lonely, like make people like who are oppressed and are, you know, going through really hard times make them, you know, comfort them like that's a good purpose of comedy. But yeah, you do I think you are finding like every late night host and if they aren't political people will jump on them. So if Jimmy Fallon has Trump on and like messes with we know with his hair or whatever, they'll get jumped on for not being political for not speaking truth to power. The irony is that they all spent the last eight years, you know, doing nothing like sucking up the power. Yeah, sucking up, you know, playing court gesture to American Empire. That's what they spent the last eight years doing. And now they're like, Oh, the power of comedy. And you're like, All right, well, welcome. Comedy in the political comedy in the age of Trump seems almost difficult because so I'm just and this is easy. It's so easy that it's difficult. That's what I mean. It seems almost like it's it's been trumped. But so I'm here's the first line from an article in the Washington Post yesterday. The lead is Rosie O'Donnell, perhaps President Trump's ultimate nemesis. Right. And like that's like this is you can't how do you top that as a joke? Right. Like so is it is the Trump presidency so funny and nuts as it is that you can't I mean, there's how much you can do. You have to have some you have to have some other perception. You have to have some other philosophy of what's going on rather than just the liberal narrative of Trump's ridiculous. He's doing all these bad things because you can't make it more ridiculous. And a lot of comedy is like teaching people how to, you know, to look at something very very very differently. So I don't know. I mean, they said that about Rosie. Rosie O'Donnell was his was his nemesis. Okay. I don't know. Well, that would be an interesting question about this. Something you're very good at is pointing out inconsistencies. I think it's a big strategy used both respiratory and comedically to point out that they've been supplicants to power. Right. But even then, like, I mean, pointing out hypocrisy is like pretty low hanging fruit in terms. I mean, it's not persuasive. Number one, like if you point out that your opponent is a hypocrite, no one cares like in politics. Like every like the like the battle over the over the Supreme Court judge. Everyone has switched sides as far as whether or not you should you should confirm a Supreme Court judge, right. And so pointing that out means nothing. Just everyone knows that politicians are hypocrites. And so I don't think that's very persuasive. But there is there is a maybe the wrong the one I'm using the wrong term, not so much hypocrisy, but there is a lot of in your comedy. There's a lot of drawing comparisons, I would say, for the purpose of I would say, well, pointing out hypocrisy is funny. I mean, it's always funny. But it's just not I don't think it's very persuasive in terms of like getting people to like, oh, now I'm not going to support that person anymore. No, people support candidates based on whose side they're on. It's tribal. It's not like, you know, they violated this principle of good governance. No one cares about that except us. Well, there's there's another flip side of that, which which is something you've written about a few times, which I find to be very very eloquently actually that it's often termed what about ism? Oh, yeah, in terms of saying if you say Trump did this executive order or something like that, the first thing is someone comes in and says, well, what about what Obama did? You're like, yeah, I was against it when he did that. Yeah, what are your thoughts on what about ism? I don't know if you want to just like just rant right now, but it's no, no, it's it's it's well, it's frustrating because most people are on autopilot. And I understand that that's that's the nature of it. If something that I post goes viral, because then people who have no idea who I am will then comment. And they'll be like, yeah, well, you didn't say anything about Obama's drone strikes. And you're like, you have not known me for the last eight years. Like, I have been saying stuff about that pretty consistently. And thankfully, I have enough fans now who will like jump in and say that and be like, you're an idiot, he's been talking about that for the last eight years. And like, okay, good. So I have enough people who know me who I don't have to I don't have to like police that stuff. But but but it is, it's a good, I don't know. It's a good thing to say sometimes. But you know, like, what's the hope, like the hope is like, you know, now is the time we convince Democrats to that government that the Trump shouldn't have all this power, right? So like, if we can really hammer it home to them, that, you know, they've been that they're the reason that Trump has all this power, which they are, they are, you know, Obama could have done a lot is eight years to decrease it. So if so, okay, then when Trump loses to a Democrat, these all these Democrats who we successfully schooled will then be like, hey, remember, no, they're not going to do that. Like, they're going to they're going to be like, all right, now we're now we have the power. So I don't know. I mean, like, it's it's kind of a I don't know how much how much of an opening there is to, you know, convincing people that like, maybe America shouldn't have an army of flying death robots, because, you know, Trump is so like, I mean, yeah, a lot of libertarians are like, Oh, nice to see all these Democrats turning libertarian now under Trump. And it's like, yeah, they are, but like, they're going to go back. Yeah, I mean, I think the best we can do is hope that if they're slightly more sympathetic to our message now and over the next let's hope only four years and in an ideal world, even fewer than that, that, you know, that that sympathy will lead them to listen a bit more than they otherwise would have and then maybe some vanishingly small yeah, you can build relationships with them. If you build relationships with people, then they're not going to stop being your friend when their side wins. So, you know, as far as like actual friendships and relationships you have with people now, you can like those like those will carry over. I on the on Trump, given your how much time you spend in the Muslim community, what how bad is do you think things will get or how bad do you think what he's doing is regarding Muslim immigrants regarding refugees? I think it's bad and I think it's going to get really bad. I would expect for I mean, this is sort of the timeline. So it's not like Trump's going to announce tomorrow to like put Muslims in camps, right? That's not really the scenario. What people are worried about is number one cracking down on immigration. He's got a lot of leeway to do that. And, you know, Tom Cotton is is, you know, like they're really going to try and restrict legal immigration to keep people from coming. And so there's that they are going to, you know, surveillance is going to be ramped up to like an even more ridiculous level. You would see under sessions like, you know, civil liberties go down. One thing that, you know, a lot of people are looking at is the attempt to designate the Muslim Brotherhood as a terrorist organization. That is like the big thing that we're all watching. Because number one, it would be the first one to do so. That would be the first time we do that on on strictly ideological grounds. So not because they're engaged in terrorism, we're supporting terrorism, but because of their beliefs. And, you know, Ted Cruz has bills to do that. Everyone that Trump has surrounded himself with wants to do that. Okay. So once they do that, and you may be like, well, you know, it's just who cares if we designate, you know, an arm, you know, people in Egypt who are in jail or Hamas as a terrorist organization. But what they would do then, and this is Ted Cruz's plan, is to designate all these Muslim civil rights organizations such as CARE and ICNA and ISNA and all these different organizations in the US who are basically like the ACLU for Muslims, designate them fronts for the Muslim Brotherhood. And this is already like a very common thing. Like anytime I post like a show that I do for CARE, I will get comments that are like, you support Hamas, you're a front for the Muslim Brotherhood, you know, and I'm like, I'm amazed that the Muslim Brotherhood has a comedy budget that they like, from their jail cells in Egypt, they're like, who should we get for this LA conference? So because of that, now every, I mean, not just me, like every Muslim intellectual in the US has ties to CARE. And because they've done work for them, because they've donated to them, like it's where it is, it's like every black activist and black intellectual has some ties to the NAACP. Like it's just sort of a natural type thing. I have like conservative Muslim friends who have done stuff for CARE. So basically, then every single Muslim intellectual in the country would have ties to a terrorist organization. And this could all happen very, very fast, like everything I'm saying now could take like two weeks to do. And then everyone, and then there's just this giant chill on donations to CARE or support for CARE. And maybe none of this will happen, hopefully none of this will happen. But that is, and then you have just straight up McCarthyism, where why are you bringing on this person who has ties to a terrorist organization, and then everyone becomes a terrorist. And then you have mass surveillance and civil liberties being restricted, and civil forfeiture asset forfeiture of people who have done work for CARE or who get paid. It could get really, really crazy, really, really fast. And then I guess the ACLU could step up their efforts, but CARE is the group that if a Muslim gets accused of something, they can go and get representation. Or if there's a civil liberties issue, CARE is the one that does that. And so because of that, so then now you have a giant wall drop in terms of, and so then after that, you can do anything. And during that whole dark darkest timeline future, which unfortunately I think is fairly likely, what will you be doing and what should comics be doing if they care? They should be, I mean, I'll be doing what I am still doing. I'm not terribly worried about myself. It's just, you know, whatever happens, happens. But I mean, comedians should be supporting CARE and should be supporting these groups that are under attack, even if you don't agree with them, even if you don't, you know, it's, but it's like those are people on the front lines of civil liberties of Muslims in the US. And if you, I mean, I think, yeah, it can happen pretty fast. So what do you say to the people who hear what you're describing as a possible timeline and think, well, that's what's needed. We need to crack down on this because Muslim immigration is a threat. And then they'll often say, you know, look at Europe with its populations that have not integrated and the violence we see there, you know, that concern, like there's a level, like a lot of it is bigotry, but then there's a lot of just fear that may be rational or irrational, but it's, you know, it's genuine. So what do you say to those Americans who think, you know, we do need to be careful here? Okay. I mean, I, yeah, I don't know. It's, it's like, it's just so far separated from my own experience with like with the Muslim community that the only thing that I can do is just show show them that gray zone and be like, look, this is what's happening. This is like, there are crazy people on either side, but like, this is what's happening. And if you attack, if you attack that gray zone, then this is ISIS's goal is to get the West to declare war on Islam and to attack that gray zone, which they hope will drive more, more Muslims to, to ISIS, you know, to their caliphate or whatever. And like, so I mean, don't do what they want you to do. You know, in terms of Europe, you know, I don't have, I mean, I just got back from a tour of UK, but, you know, I wasn't in like Germany or these, you know, places that are like more close to that. But, you know, it's a hard situation. And I don't, you know, I don't envy them. But you know, there are reasons why America is so good at assimilating immigrants, even though every time there's a wave of immigration, everyone's like, no, they're not going to assimilate. And it's like, or integrate. I don't like the word assimilate, but integrate. You know, then, I mean, part of it is like, you know, barriers to entry into the economy. A lot of people who immigrate to Europe can't find jobs that they're legally not allowed to have a job. And so then what do you do? You end up in a ghetto and, you know, doing stuff off the books. And those places are pretty ripe for radicalization, just like refugee camps are ripe for, you know, for radicalization. For listeners who want to find your stuff and follow you, where can they find you? And then what can they expect to see when they follow you on Facebook or otherwise? Well, yeah, it's just Jeremy McClellan comedy on Facebook. And then Jeremy McClellan on Twitter, it's with 1C. And yeah, I mean, I just talk about politics and talk about religion and culture and all that stuff. Thanks for listening. This episode of Free Thoughts was produced by Tess Terrible and Evan Banks. To learn more, visit us at www.libertarianism.org.