 Email address is that somebody asked me if I accept emails. I love email. So if you have a question when talking anything feel free I mean, I enjoy it. I like this stuff. I enjoy what what what I do So this is this is styled Cybercrime challenges for law enforcement This is something that that that I've been working on quite a bit several things I've been working on and basically I guess the theme is that cybercrime is different Okay, it's it's different in in in certain ways a different kind of tricky intangible ways and the tricky intangible ways Pose problems for the way we have conducted law enforcement and the criminal law And I want to talk about that and illustrate some of the ways that it's different in doing that I really don't have an agenda. I mean what I find interesting is how technology Impacts on a lot of our assumptions in law law tends to be conservative It's traditional and I think that of all the areas of law criminal law is probably the most primitive the oldest because if you think about it It deals with it has dealt used to deal with you know really basic things I walk up to you and hurt you something like that That's gonna deal with all these technological things and we've got a lot of lawyers and judges who aren't particularly adept with it So we're trying to sort it out. So let's let's talk Well, that's what he just said that What you have for criminal law is You have a system that evolved to deal with bank robberies and murders and homicides and rapes and thefts and those kinds of things You know what I call real-world crime, which is certain characteristics that we'll talk about that you don't necessarily have in cyber crime So we'll get to that cyber crime Computer mediated crime technologically mediated crime technological crime. Whatever you want to call it is Different it doesn't operate uncertain some of the same constraints and that can cause issues and we're going to do an illustration here And we'll Progress on to some more. Here's one theft. This is such a simple one That real-world theft possession property shifts completely from A to B. A had it B now has it I take your laptop real-world theft. I walk up to you. I take your laptop. I had it You don't it's a zero-sum concept. Yeah, that's the way it's always been Cyber theft can happen like that But it can also happen that property data is copied So everybody has it both people have it and that can raise issues in terms of the legal system Here's a case from Oregon a gentleman named Randall Schwartz worked for Intel and for reasons I really don't know he became aggravated with Intel And of course of being aggravated with his employer. He apparently copied a file that contained passwords He was charged with computer theft for copying the file that contained passwords and he said come on now That is defining somewhat of the possession use of their property theft is taking away the laptop I didn't take anything away Intel still has the password file. There's no theft Which is true in terms of traditional legal principles, but we've had to we've had to expand that out now in this country We've done a pretty good job at state and federal level of expanding out on some things like that in tangible property This kind of theft you still have problems with that in some other countries which something I'll get to because Cybercrime is international and that creates that creates issues Here this is the flip side of what I just did First issue is copying files theft the Randall Schwartz copying the password file a theft It's not theft in that sense, but it's The idea being that Intel lost something that there's a dilution of their property dilution of the value that they lost Something here's another place where copying files comes up seizure fourth amendment You probably know fourth amendment you have a right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures You don't have a search or seizure. You don't have the fourth amendment It's not a fourth amendment search for police officer to drive down the street videotaking because it's not private It's not a search. All right You got to have a search or seizure to get into the window and that means that if you get in the window Then they have to use a warrant They have to comply with the fourth amendment if you're outside the fourth amendment No warrant. No, nothing videotape on the street. You don't need a warrant. It's not a search here copying files a Question that is not resolved That's been addressed in the federal case. I'm going to talk about a little bit later, but I think that federal case is really wrong Question that has not been resolved is whether or not copying files is a seizure and that's important Because if copying files is a seizure it means the fourth amendment's implicated It means the government can't do it without a warrant or an exception to the warrant requirement if it's not If it's not a seizure None of that none of that kicks in There is a federal case that I'll talk about in a bit that that handle this issue badly This is an issue that's on appeal in a case of Illinois Where fellow took his computer into the repair shop to have something done They're authorized to look at one file. They looked at one file. They saw something look like child porn They call the cops the cops came in the cops copied everything on the hard drive on The on the motion to stand in the motion to suppress and the officer was asked why did you get a warrant? He said I don't like to do that. It takes time Of course Why would you do that? Question being which becomes critical there. They copied the files and they did other things It comes up in the other case if copying the files is a nothing if it's not a seizure. It's okay I think it has to be a seizure I think we have to bring that within the fourth amendment which why I've done some work on the case in case in Illinois But it is an example It is another example of how the law has to figure out how to deal with these Technical issues and most lawyers are not technical people It's one left I mean, this is just a version of that. This is the same kind of thing Nikki scarf I don't know if you know Nikki scarf a low-level gangster New Jersey the comes from an imminent prime family the FBI executed warranted his office. They seized files from his computers. They went through the files and his computers They found one that was encrypted. They were very suspicious about what was in the in the encrypted file He used a keystroke logger pursuant to a warrant to go in and get his passphrase so they can go into the file I mean in one of the issues there and their application for the warrant They basically concede that copying copying is a seizure, but let us move on now this this The way lawyers Think about we talk about cybercrimes You will typically see them divided into three categories crimes for the computer as the target Crimes for the computer as a tool crimes with the two computer plays an incidental role this distinction comes from the Department of Justice has a On their website the c-sips which is the computer crime intellectual property section has guidelines for searching and seizing computers You haven't looked at it You might want to look at it sometime because they're pretty instructive because in the Department of Justice talking about What you have to do to be able to search and seize computers pursuant to the fourth amendment Eqpa other things This comes from those guidelines, and I think it's not a bad way to talk about it It's not a really great distinction because sometimes you can have these things intermingled But I like to use it because I think it illustrates I can use it to illustrate some differences in Legal issues and cyber crime now computers target first up What I've done is put some kinds of ways computers can be targets up there, and I'm using two words I'm using hacking and cracking because I don't know what else to use I Know that there's I'm not using hacking pejoratively if you notice in parentheses I've got trespass hacking for the law is a form of trespass hacking means it's gone somewhere You're not supposed to be give it physically gone there, but you've accessed it and so for lack of a better term I'm using hacking for that cracking which could be aggravated hacking. You'll see that in some criminal statutes I'm using that as it is the equivalent of real-world burglary burglary is you break in somewhere to do something bad You break into steel you break into hurt you break in to do something so it's kind of like burglary Most of this code We don't quite have anything an analog to that website to face which is kind of like vandalism denial of service attacks Which doesn't have anything after it because it doesn't have any analog in real-world crime only talk about a little bit about targets Which are the less less interesting? Oh? This is a guy who worked for a company called Lance. They make little snacks He was supposed to develop a software program for them like Randall Schwarz They did something they had a misunderstanding. He got unhappy with them And because of that he planted a logic bomb in the program. He triggered it. It shut down handheld computers cost them over a hundred thousand dollars I do this one a lot. You're not something you would be surprised at but often people That I talked to law enforcement government private sector people don't think about the insider threat They think about threats coming from outside. So this is a classic insider threat This one I use it The denial of service is you know, this is the classic one we have mafia boy taking the rap for this pleading guilty for this attack It's a denial service. It's an example denial service doesn't fit in any of our criminal categories denial of service is not depth It's not extortion. It's not trespass. It doesn't fit It doesn't fit nicely into any of our categories. So it's a new crime something we have to come up with a new offense for The reason I do this one estimated one point seven billion dollars in damage. We don't have any idea About damage assessments. We're really this is this is something that's fluid. You see a lot of these assessments I put the figure up. That's the figure that was reported. We have a lot of a Do a bit more with this later. We have a lot in terms of cyber crime statistics. We have a lot of uncertainty Get to the ones these are the ones now Computers target. We've got the break-ins that the denial service. We've got malicious code We've got those kinds of things you're going at the computer Denial services different those are a little different, you know, we can make them sound like trespass in Berkeley a little different This this is where this is the growth industry This is where we see a lot of things happening the computer being used as a tool to commit all kinds of neat kinds of crime We have not maybe you have I have not yet Discovered a documented case of cyber homicide, but computers are used to commit fraud theft extortion stalking child porn forgery Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Just like a gun the computers used as a weapon to commit the crimes now on the one hand on the one hand That may not cause problems. Sometimes it doesn't cause problems on the other hand Sometimes it can cause us real problems in the legal system at this point I'm just talking about us figuring out what the heck is the crime was their crime. What was the crime? We're gonna talk about procedural issues in a minute. So Here it's just used as a tool to commit an existing crime When I see cyber crime is different There's a few differences on the targets These are just people doing the same things they've done to people for years and years and years But they're using the computer and we're going to continue to see this. I think perhaps more thing into new forms I think we may see some Different varieties here. The only reason I do this one Leaven took responsibility for siphoning money out of Citibank and putting it in foreign accounts. He sentenced this is computer theft But it's not like Randall Schwartz This is the old zero some kind of theft. This is transferring money out of an account This is using the computer Problems worth in terms of the substance of the law, but it's going to get us into procedural issues Which we'll do in a minute Identity theft this one you probably I'm sure you read about the Abraham Abdullah Stole and quotes identities of various people and steal them Identity theft I don't take your identity and you don't have it anymore So now I knew and you're just not really anybody It's a form of fraud And it's just it's not a new crime and it's a different way of doing but it's not a new kind of it's not a new kind of crime And you know if you use public library doesn't require a lot of sophistication this one. I Like some of these slides are up here just because I like them Just because I think it's funny. This is a dentist named Bruce Lashow. It was a very trusting person Bruce Lashow wanted to buy some kind of a BMW. I don't know anything about BMWs But it's a special BMW and you can only buy it. I guess in Germany and Bruce really really really wanted this BMW And so he was dealing with someone in Germany to buy the BMW and they said hey, Bruce You're gonna have to send us 55,000 for the BMW and Bruce. Oh sure Where should I send it basically and they said we should send it to this website this escrow site They'll take good care of it and Bruce sends it to the escrow site and what happens? BMW No BMW no 55,000 we have a sadder But hopefully a wiser Bruce who's gonna have to fill a lot of teeth to get his money back This one is another one I like This was a year or so ago Somebody hacks into an online casino and fixes it so that everybody paying crap since slice couldn't lose Isn't that great? I Called this one the Robin Hood. I mean Robin Hood just drops in the casino and says hey everybody have a good time During the time that the fix was in that the thing was working players won 1.9 million dollars And they actually paid up and when I do this one for for one first-minute government people I say so is that a crime? What's the crime? All right, like a theft of services Let me see stealing in the money so the way we think of that stealing We're just the law. We think of that stealing in the law is I take I get it. I steal it for me But if you if you went to every teller in the bank and said to them when someone comes in I'm sorry. Yes, sir. Obviously the players the players didn't commit any crime right? I mean they didn't they just they just they're just golden No, no, I don't I don't think so see I mean because then if you can do it We can fit it into it. That's why I like this we can fit it into our case I just see it with somebody having and I'm you know, I shouldn't say this right, but I mean having a good time I think it's kind of funny reallocation of wealth. Yes Well, he robbed the bed. Oh, it's a crime to keep the money, but did these people didn't know Those people knew it was no, he knew it was a bank robbery. He's got a mask and the gun, right? And they're figuring out that he's a robbery, but they didn't win it They didn't was it the trouble you're gonna see the trouble here there He robs it and he takes the laptop he takes it and then he gets it away. I'm sorry the pop In terms of I don't know I know that they paid up because they figured that it apparently was their fault and it was easier to pay up on that one Then not I don't know but as I say the reason I use this one is When I do it for like one actually I use the one first might get it. They kind of think it's funny, too but You know It's not theft. I mean I'm sorry. I don't you know with all respect to your opinions. It's not the way we think of it Well, you see we can we can do it. We can do it Consequentially, I mean I can do this one consequently. I can do it a lower level. I can charge you with you know Destruction property. What have you done to the slot machine? So I can get you for that which you can get here, right? I mean one crime you can get here is breaking into the system, right and Altering and altering but the question is see, you know criminal law is supposed to be about harm and Each crime is supposed to address a particular level of harm. This is what you did you did this bad thing and this is the crime All right, well we can clearly hear do the break into the system, right? All right, but then what about the 1.9 million? Pardon I don't think so I don't think so on this one apparently apparently this one is straight Robin Hood now There are different versions of this I don't think so Robin you don't catch Robin Hood come on Yes, I'm sorry. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yes. I don't do torts. I do. I'm purely criminal Crime is crime is my interest. Oh, yes, you can always do see and on this kind of thing Actually, I've had people ask that before on this kind of thing. Yes You could always do you can always do a civil suit tort law breach of contract Agreement whatever you can always do that and a casino would have money so you could get damages Problem is on some of these cases which we're going to talk about in a minute They're what it's the law calls judgment proof. You can bring a civil suit I can bring a civil suit if I've got the money to hire a lawyer take the whole damn thing through court And I have somebody who's got no money Now I could do that. I'm just really bound and determined I was in France about six weeks ago And somebody told me about someone who'd pursued a suit through for a couple of years and got one dollar in the damages And was quite happy because they vindicated themselves. I don't I'm an American. We're mercenary. I don't think I quite See doing that. Yes. Ah, oh, yes, we're gonna get there. See that's another hole That's another whole thing. I mean in terms of where is it who's Jurisdiction where is it who's got jurisdiction whose laws applied? You know we're the laws that were there did they reach the conduct? That's just another whole thing This is just a real simple little conceptual part of it Which is somebody plays a trick you want to prosecute you can clearly prosecute for them You can clearly prosecute for the intrusion the going into the system, but then there's that's what I mean by consequential You're going in plus you're breaking in plus you're breaking in plus. You're just handing out 1.9 million dollars I feel prosecuted to tell me that there's ought to be a wire front. I'm not sure that you can make it I'm not sure you're gonna make a wire front. I don't think it fits. I don't think it fits there To Yeah, you have to show that you that you that you that you willfully acted that your conduct acted using the wires in Further into the scheme to defraud and one of the problems I have with this is scheme to defraud who out of what? scheme to defraud who out of what You Yeah, I Put you know, this is why oh, yes Yeah, because see and again see you're all absolute you're absolutely right and the reason I do it is you know We've just got this theory that because it's the way people do things in the real world Very seldom do people go rob banks in the real world and go out and go yippie take them take the money It's mine. You know theft is mine You don't have here you can play you can play a trick here, and it doesn't quite fit into our categories Let me try some more Ah this one this one's fun This one is bizarre 1999 October 1999 April 1999 is Columbine October 1999 something happened in a Massachusetts middle school The kids at the Massachusetts middle school would go home from school every day and chat in an AOL chat room about what happened You know who sat with who or you know, whatever kids in middle school chat about And they noticed at one point that there was a lurker there was somebody there listening Pay much attention. There's another kid And then the lurker started to talk and the and this is this evolves It's clear to them clear to them that this person is at the school because this person knows things this person says things like oh Janey you look really neat in that purple sweater today And oh, I saw you and you know so-and-so and so-and-so sat together in the cafeteria So there's another kid in the in the in the chat room And it starts to get weird And it starts to get really weird and The person starts to become angry and the kids start to be upset it starts to get strange it ultimately Progresses to the point where for example that the entrance to the school person sends a Picture of the entrance to the school with the you know the gun sight superimposed over it Sends a picture of the principal with bullet holes throughout starts making ominous things And now what has happened is that the kids have told their parents and everybody's nuts everybody's going crazy because everybody believes dear God we're gonna have another column bond here And who is it it's got to be somebody in the school because they know everything that's going on and this person is still as this Is going on is still manipulating So everybody's everybody's trying to sort out parents are like do I send the kids to school? Do I not send the kids to school the parents like what do we do? Do we have security who do we have security from maybe it's one of us? How do we deal with this? It goes on and on at one point I'm a serious lurker the kids go back in the chat room, and they say We think you're Bobby Smith. Are you Bobby Smith because nobody like Bobby Smith? And he said yeah, I'm Bobby Smith, and so they beat the hell out of Bobby Smith Of course, it wasn't Bobby Smith. I mean Bobby just got in the way It tracks on and actually they're very fortunate very fortunate By some kind of chance some some good luck They find out who's doing it and it's Christian who know it who's 20 years old who is understandably I mean, you know feel sorry for him. He'd been in an auto accident a couple years before he'd been an athlete He's now a paraplegic. He's bitter And he's in Missouri The Christian who know 20 year old Paraplegic from Missouri is terrorizing a town in Massachusetts playing with a collect sin city only distorted weird whacked out Sin city sin city goes vicious He's playing with he's playing with these people, and I mean they were terrorized and one of the things I find most interesting about this Is it when they caught it? Well, there's another dimension. We'll talk about is it when they caught him He's getting ready to do it to another school in Georgia Well, that was part of the problem. They found him Massachusetts couldn't really prosecute him because there's their They'd have cyber crime code. They still had traditional criminal law and they do now I mean they dealt with that but they can really prosecute him Missouri can prosecute him because and one of the things he did he would send the children child porn It wasn't prosecuted on the federal level. You could you could possibly get him on the federal level for transmitting threats He wasn't prosecuted there. I think I know why Missouri prosecuted him He pled, you know and then part of the promise. What do you do with him? Our penal systems are not set up To deal with people who are in Christian who knows situation. I mean we don't really have the facilities I think that's probably why the feds did not want to go after him So I mean he went away for a while He's been let out the usual restrictions on computers and all that but look You know, this is one of the things one sec one second. This is one of the this is one of the things that I like to talk about I mean the power Christian who know couldn't have ever done this before you can you can spark a town before They get this kid halfway across the country sitting this whole town into panic. He isn't prosecuted in Massachusetts. They fixed their laws He is prosecuted Missouri, but for not very much Presumably he won't be a recidivist They are as I say, I think pretty lucky that they caught it before he went after Georgia because you have to understand Everybody in Massachusetts thought he was in this town. They weren't looking anywhere else because how could it be some guy after Missouri? Yes, sir No, it was not it was not then we were not We were not as sensitive we were not as sensitive to tears and others There's a thing you'll find in most states. There's an official find in most states That's been around for God knows how many long years It's called making terroristic threats and it's usually pretty small pretty low-level pretty low level of thin she could use it And it doesn't it doesn't get you much. I mean it goes back to this thing about harm I mean the Massachusetts they wanted to get this guy because they are not happy about what had happened But their laws really did not really did not work. I'm calling it stalking for lack of a better term, you know, he he did he did make threats Which can make it a little different from some other kinds of cases. How am I doing on time? 29 oh good that I can't tell a story This one a variation of this one. He made threats. There's a case. Do you know the Jake Baker case out of Michigan University of Michigan? Anybody know that one? Somebody knows that one Jake Baker, you can correct me if I get anything wrong Simplifying Jake Baker is a student at Michigan. He was corresponding with another person It's slightly I'm going to oversimplify and make it a little bit more internet public related than it is Of course money with another person Jake Baker lived in a dorm at the University of Michigan and across the hall from him For example of the woman for whom he conceived as some people do a very weird passion And Jake Baker in the in the course of his email described what he would like to do to her And he'd like to read what he'd like to do to her send me an email and I'll send you the case Among other things that he would like to do to her would be to strip her neck and hang her upside down by her feet Slash her with a knife laughing while she screamed Pour gasoline over her laughing while she screamed and then do what? Light a fire laughing as she screamed and died Through a weird Course of events somehow this apparently came to the attention and there's a couple of things There's a couple of women going on. There's a couple of dimensions. I mean, I'm simplifying isn't how much time gave to the attention of The woman it's my understanding that the president of the University of Michigan just threw Jake Baker off campus after two hours Pardon Now now And then I think there was like this I think there was a discussion about well, what do we do? We should charge him with something We should prosecute him for something. What are we charging with? He was prosecuted for what this one wasn't He was prosecuted on the federal level for 18 USC section 875 C, which is using an instrumentality of interstate commerce to send threats Did you make a sin threats? This guy did I think this guy did with the bullet holes on the you know Yes It's art Yeah, he just expressed a fantasy right he never meant I mean I don't think he ever meant for her to see it They're talking back and forth it bleeds off into the into the internet and she sees it She was scared to death But but he didn't But you see you see this is why you hire I've never been a prosecutor. I've been a defense lawyer you hire defense lawyers sneaky defense lawyers And you get yourself charged with you get yourself charged with this you represent Jake Baker Jake Baker comes in and you say dear God, I don't want to go to jury. This would not be good. Let's not go to a jury Let's try to get this thing from going to a jury So you fell the motion to dismiss the charges saying they're no good legally Which in this case would be I'm the defense lawyer. I fell the motion say what threat, right? Did he threaten anybody? No, no, you can't get there if I if I can convince the judge in the district court the federal district court said Boy, I don't like this stuff, but he didn't threaten her and the Sixth Circuit said Boy, I don't like this stuff It's not a threat He didn't say to her I am going to do this to you He fantasized and he put his fantasies featuring a real person Out where she could find it. Yes. Oh, sure. You'd have to prove intent to threat But see really you don't want to you don't want to take this kind of case to a jury Well, I mean you hope if you were to take a case like that the jury you would hope They would do it right, you know and parse through and say this he didn't intend to and it wasn't threatened on that But you're much safer with a judge and so this one It's not up there, but the Baker one I personally think very correctly. It wasn't a threat I don't see how you could prosecute the guy for threatening. Yes, how about more like I like it more I think it would be interesting. I had a cop several years ago asked me this scenario. It's kind of a variation What if a guy I have my weird passions being conceived again here And I'm sorry thinking on the guys other people can conceive weird passions But whatever guy conceives a weird passion of this woman who lives in his apartment complex And she doesn't like him You know, there's a lot of stalking cases where you get this kind of behavior And so what he does is if she walks back and forth back and forth to her apartment He videotapes her and the officer's example I don't know if this was real or he made it up the officer's example was that he morphs her head Onto a videotape of somebody being raped And puts it on the internet It's art It's my creation It's my homage You're a star Tune on come on. You watch yourself being raped every day. Ain't that cool eat taped in public It's not a commercial use This by the way, this leads me to something which I wasn't going to get into today But just as an aside and at some point here. I probably should get back on track Invasion of privacy, I mean we don't really treat and I'm gonna do this I have a case of this in a minute. We've not really treated a lot of things about ourselves and our Identities our privacy. We've not really taken that. We've not really taken that Seriously, I mean my question on that one with the if you just take it on the straight criminal law perspective If you did that and you put the videotape up and there's the videotape and now it shows her and it's Characterized as art is that different from Jake Baker, which is the threat. So let me let me bear with me Okay, yeah Struggle on something else is vaguely related. You know this one. You know the site Oh, this is such an interesting thing It's called the Nuremberg files like you can see it here visualize abortions on trial. It's a website. There's the thingie address It focuses it posts the names addresses Home and business other information about doctors performing abortions It doesn't say go hurt them But it does post that information and in the section of the site It lists the names of doctors and if your name is listed in black font, you are alive and working If your name is in a gray font, you've been wounded If your name is struck three you've been killed This caused consternation To doctors who were listed on the site, you know, they thought gee I don't feel comfortable with this and So they brought a civil suit The contours of which we don't worry about but try to get the site shut down and they're saying that basically this is What is this? Exactly. They're saying that it's a they're saying two things. They're saying it's a threat threat How am I doing that throughout my time? Okay, see I I'm the toll of all bad things will happen if I don't stay on time What you get here in Terms of in terms of the issues whether or not it's a threat The part of the argument was that it's threatening that it's implicitly saying hi You know that that is implicitly saying we're threatening you Another part of it is what's called aiding and abetting which is somebody wants to rob a liquor store I give them a gun, you know, I'm helping I'm contributing You know the idea being that they're helping by saying this is where you can find this is where you can find the abortion doctor case goes case goes to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals brought brought Comes out of Washington goes the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals 9th Circuit Court of Appeals Says the rest of it just the information that's posted It's no problem You can put up the abortion doctor's home address work address License plate number spouse name all those kinds of things No problem. This they said was getting close to a threat now Here's a really cool clone of that one called justice files org The front page of this website. This is some justice files. This is what it does is it provides name salary Social security number home address spouses names kids names information about police officers Well now they have they started in Washington and I'll tell you in a minute They just won a court case and I was looking at it this morning and they say that by December They will have 23 million entries in their databases Searchable databases for law enforcement personnel basically the front page of the website says we are not Encouraging anything. No, no, no We don't believe in anything bad happening to anyone Please but we want police to know that anytime they have an encounter with the citizen. They can be held accountable We think the public has the right to certain information about police so that if they have an encounter They can be held accountable. I don't know what that means, but they're not encouraging anything wrong This is from the site. Philip C. Goughlin is a Kirtland police officer. This is straight in the site This is a picture of his house. There's a map to his home You can find him this causes police undiscomfort not happy with this, you know, they just don't like this so what happened is that Washington Washington adopted a statute that that said you could bring a civil suit if somebody posted information about law enforcement officers with intent to harm or intimidate About two weeks ago a federal court struck that down Just like the Nuremberg files and said that violates the First Amendment. It's they said it's not a threat and so now our friend Says he's gonna have 23 million He's gonna have 23 million entries in it by the end of the year and you can search and find you remember He would like to take it national. Yes In Washington You can get the names of police officers you get the names of police officers find out the police You find out the officer's name you find out the rank you find out some other things That is the other thing in the site. Everything here is public domain. Everything is public information Everything is publicly gathered. He says now with his 23 million his database of 23 million entries He wants to have a searchable database on various parameters so that you could find out anything you wanted to find Well, not anything but you could find out a lot about the people in somebody. Yes it did They were they were taken down. There was a county court Challenge to the whole thing and that judge said not social security numbers. Basically, it's kind of an odd theory But that they are not you know, this is speech the information speech But the social security numbers are more like a tool. They're not really speech for you know, I don't write these opinions Now With this he sees an open social security numbers back up because he's he says he's cleared So this is this is one of my themes here, you know power different things happening is this this is a very passive kind of thing But I don't know that we can do much about this with our first amendment that it causes consternation and somebody had a hand up We see now that takes us to another thing Which was that and that interim when there was the Washington statute and they were trying to shut him down in Washington What did he do? What did he do? He took it elsewhere I mean at that point you would go to the Washington site There was anything on it. I say go to one of our mirror sites and by the way if you'd like to mirror it get in touch with me I mean before that he'd been threatening to take it to Kuwait. So he takes it to Kuwait Takes it to Kuwait. Now. What do we do? He takes it to Kuwait. He left Washington I don't know if he went to Kuwait, but he took it to Kuwait. So now it's in Kuwait. Okay, great What do we do about that? Let me let me struggle onward here because a lot some way they're gonna hold up their hands. Oh Yeah, this one this one I think kind of a parenthetical because this this kind of fits in with that Okay, let me let me do this because it really is relevant council of Europe, which is a cybercrime convention which is the big attempts now to try to Get consensus and laws across cyber crime laws across countries last year adopted a protocol that criminalizes using computers to disseminate Racist and xenophobic material here. It's material that targets race ethnic or national origins I like the fact it doesn't include gender or gender preference, but okay It has this and it's a crime Specifically intended to target for example Holocaust denial sites Nazi sites things like that This is gonna be the flip side of Kuwait. Let me do this and we'll come back to Kuwait We can't do this We post this we didn't want this in the council of Europe convention at the first place It is now in the in the there's an al-separate protocol And we can't do this because of our first amendment the same reason We have to let the Nuremberg files up and the justice files up and other things we host You know Holocaust denial sites Nazi sites different kinds of sites that people around the world find Aggravating and that causes a great deal of tension has caused is causing a great deal of tension with other countries with Europe in terms of this because they say and This is something I always emphasize You know, we're sheltering these people I say there's talk in that cyber crime havens there is one cyber crime haven in the world right now and it's us and It's us in terms of this because we have to protect speech right We have to allow this I mean at one point. I don't know if you saw it's about a year ago You're gonna hear it half ago. Also. Shealy who's a German minister of justice for God's sake What it was proposing denial service attacks on Nazi websites in our country to shut them down because of course we don't extradite We can't extradite. It's not a crime here. So you get you get these tensions, which is leading me into Oh, yes, that's just people store records and things. I'm gonna have to move on. Let me Move on. All right Quickly real-world crime Wait where our law enforcement system is set up for assumptions physical proximity I got to be there to take your laptop number one scale limited scale I take one laptop. I take another laptop. I can only do so much crime physical constraints I take your laptop. You see me. I leave physical evidence. I can be traced Patterns you can you can organize crimes into patterns. None of that's going to work for cyber crime Our model of law enforcement is based on the idea that we have a transaction you can identify that you can find me You're gonna capture me. You're gonna lock me up. I'm gonna be locked up all as well Nobody else will ever do that again. Things will work nicely Cyber crime doesn't work like that as you know What I like And the network will know Island as an island does make any difference Kuwait Look at the website and Kuwait the Kuwaiti say fine by us We don't like those American law enforcement people. It's not our problem. We don't have any laws on this This isn't a crime here kind of the reverse of what we do with some of the German sites Guzman, you know Guzman I'm gonna skip on whoa You know this case right Gorshkoff and Ivanov Gorshkoff and Ivanov the invited thing I don't imagine I have to go through the facts You know the whole you know, they put the keystroke logger on they get the password username and password the FBI goes into the Russian computer downloads files for Part of a long period of time and don't get a warrant So it is sucking information from a computer in another country Back here with no warrant now then they hold on to it They get a warrant and then of course the question becomes these guys are going to move to suppress I'm here and move to suppress and they say hey Going into that computer and pulling those files back copying those files remember my seizure Copying those files taking those files. That's a seizure and you you had to have a warrant To do that. Oh, and by the way you violated Russian law Okay, the district court which is not a model decision Is not a great decision, but we get decisions that aren't great sometimes we have to keep trying First of all the court said the fourth amendment doesn't apply and that's true Our Supreme Court has said a long time ago that our fourth amendment is for we the people not those people We don't care about those people okay Let's go do what you want to do our fourth amendment applies for us within our territorial boundaries So the FBI could go into that Russian computer And violate the fourth amendment I don't think that's a way to run a cyber world from that's an editorial but that's where we are with with the traditional The court said there's no Russian law issue because basically hey, it's not a basis to suppress here, right? Not our law Because we also said this is another one. I don't I don't like any of this Even as the fourth amendment applied copying files is not a seizure because hey the stuff was still in Russia So they lose they lose on all of those now. I assume, you know the next installment Now the FBI said the reason we did this is we went to the Russians And they wouldn't help us because there was no mutual legal assistance treaty and effect that Encompassed it so they wouldn't do anything for us who we had no choice because these guys are victimizing American businesses But we had to do something we had to use what the law calls self-help Did you see this last August the Russians charge one of the FBI agents with hacking charged in August and the Russians said he's been charged with hacking and Gotcha, he's been charged with hacking and send him on down. Now, what do we do right? What? What and then in November they said hello? We're waiting He broke our law He went into a computer system. He wasn't authorized to go into that's crime. I Can show you the statute he broke the law and that was in November and what has happened? What are we gonna do? Just do that not not not not us. I mean it Well, there may be see what we're really doing is I understand it is we're just not Thinking about it. We're just kind of not It's will someday maybe we'll get to that my points on this and I need to wrap up my points on this And I'm sorry. I didn't get through Which I should go to Where see I didn't get through many things. There we go as my email address My point is these and many other respects. I didn't get to cyber crime causes problems this cross-border stuff You have difficulties with the cross-border. We have trouble figure out what our crimes are with problems We got crimes in different countries. We have cultural conflicts. We allow speech other countries criminalize and It's difficult and I think that's enough Right. Okay, we're done