 So without any further ado, let me say hi to Dan and Dan, how are you doing? Good, Carlos. Good. Thanks for having me here. All right, well, let's jump into it. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about yourself and how you got started? Sure, yeah. So as you said, like you said, I'm the Chief Product Officer at Waymo. And for those of you who aren't familiar with Waymo, we're a self-driving technology company with a mission to make it safe and easy for people and things to get where they're going. In terms of your question around the personal story, I think it's a bit of a winding road that took me where I started to where I am now. It all started more in terms of software engineering. I started as a software engineer across three different startups. And I went that direction because I was actually torn in terms of the direction to go, but I felt like if I wanted to go technical, I needed to go start technical. But after the three startups, I quickly realized two things. One that when I looked at the really senior engineers, that probably wasn't the skill set and the things that I wanted to continue to exercise. And secondly, I really wanted more social impact in terms of what I, the outcomes that I wanted to have. So I spent some time volunteering with some nonprofits. An example would be there's a nonprofit called Benetech Initiative. If anyone's familiar with that, they do technology for social good. So volunteered with them briefly in terms of looking at human rights violation monitoring and technology that could help that. I felt like I needed to then go to grad school. I wanted to get more context on the business side and on the social impact side. So I went to Harvard for an MBA and a policy degree, spent a few years there. And was really trying to explore that intersection of where I see technology, social impact and a sustainable business model coming together. That said, when I graduated, it was in the midst of the financial crisis. And so I decided that I was going to hide out in technology for a year or so while I figured things out. But I didn't realize what I, what, what ended up happening is I came to Google and I fell in love with product management. I started on Google Maps, worked a little on Google Hangouts as well. So over several years, really fell in love with the craft of product management. But after a few years there, I really yearned for that social impact element. And when the opportunity came up at Waymo, it just felt like too good to pass up that it was really finally this intersection of social impact of technology and a sustainable business model. So that's, that's kind of what brought me to Waymo through that path. I'm smiling because I come from a similar background. I went through similar struggles. I started engineering because that was what I was supposed to do. But I soon realized that I just wanted to leverage engineering in a different way. And back in the day, product wasn't really a thing, or at least as mainstream as. Exactly. Yeah. For me, it definitely wasn't like a clear career path at that time. I totally agree. So you joined Google, started working on different products. And I wonder, what is that switch from mostly software products to also a product that also combines a strong hardware component? Yeah. So I think it's definitely an interesting challenge when you have both software and hardware. I would say that when you think about those, there are definitely many similarities across the core skills as a product manager. A couple of differences. Some are more obvious than others. Clearly, there's different time frames you're dealing with. You have to think about more manufacturing and supply chain in those areas. But I think the biggest challenge to your question is around connecting those two cultures and having the software and hardware sides really talk to each other. Because I think when you take a step back, you're like, oh, maybe it's just around communication and things like that. But I think it goes deeper than that. I do think that in some sense hardware and software sculptures are just naturally different because of the world they grew up in. And so how do you really challenge your software and product managers to be able to establish requirements years out before they've really thought about that? And then how do you challenge your hardware product managers to really build flexibility when it's really hard for them to have flexibility? So I think the core challenge around that is bridging the hardware and software bits and making sure that they're staying on the same page. So in product, we always say that it's important to fall in love with deep problem and not that much with dissolution. So in your particular case, what are those of macro themes or big problems that you are excited about solving? Yeah. So thanks for the question because I love this web because I do think that the mission and core problem that we're trying to solve at Waymo is really compelling to me and to the folks at Waymo. It is really around safety. We think about 1.3 million lives are lost on a global basis every single year. It's one of the top causes of death. And then out of those deaths, 94% of those are actually preventable. They're based on human error. And yet we almost have become desensitized to that problem. When we hear about a traffic accident, we think about more of the traffic rather than the life that was lost. So I think that's the core problem. I think there are other elements that we want to address as well. So for instance, access, 20 to 30 million Americans don't have a driver's license or around sustainability. If you think about 95% of the time your car sits on your driveway not doing anything or only 1 to 2% of cars are sold or EVs or plug-in hybrids. So these are some of the challenges. I would say the core one is really around safety. I think that's the core challenge that we're trying to solve. And I'm glad to hear that because sometimes we tend to think too much about software or optimizing for a local maximum. I'm creating an add-on for this product and that other thing, which obviously it's important in some way, but zooming out and really understanding the impact that you have in the world, literally saving lives and reducing emissions, it's powerful. I know that technology has a key role in that. It's something that I want more PMs tried for to think bigger about the problems that we're trying to solve beyond just websites or mobile apps. Absolutely. So I'm sure you've seen so many different types of product management philosophies throughout your career. So what do you think are the biggest misconceptions for people who are thinking about product but maybe they are not working there with that you think it's important for them to know? Yeah. So when I think about misconceptions or a myth, there's maybe two that come to mind. One actually goes to our shared story, Carlos, right, which is around what's the best way to become a PM? You probably get this question a lot. I feel like I get this question a lot for people that are considering careers in product management. Should I become an engineer first? Should I go to grad school first? And I would say that I think the fastest path to being a PM is to be a PM. That I took a more roundabout way because one, like we talked about, I didn't know about product management. I wasn't sure about product management. So I kind of optimized for optionality. I think things like going more technical first gives you more optionality, going to grad school gives you more optionality. But I think if you really want to be a PM, you're sure about it. The best thing to do is be a PM. And then I think the question is really around, do you become a more of a generalist PM? And you have a bit like a mix of different types of PM roles, whether it's consumer enterprise or more technical or more user facing. Or you want to specialize early. But I think that's one question that a lot of people wrestle with. I think another one is around today, I think especially over the last few years, things like large scale experimentation have really kind of been refined as a tool set for product managers. And I think it's been really powerful for us. But I think sometimes we forget about making sure that we exercise the full tool set as product managers. So for instance, at Waymo, if you're thinking about either kind of more moonshots or startups, I think you don't have the luxury of billions of users right off the outset. And so for us, a lot of investment in user research, a lot of investment in incremental pilots. So for instance, we have an early rider program that has allowed us to have that first touch point with public users. I think those are really important elements that we shouldn't forget as body managers. When I talk a lot, when I talk with a lot of non-PMs who always come to us and say, hey, I want to become a product manager at Google or some of the alphabet companies, it's definitely top of mind for a lot of them. Before I start giving advice, I always ask them, what do you think PMs do? Because like sometimes from the outside, people imagine that you are there on your desk, having these big ideas and are waiting for the engineers to execute for you. It's not that fancy, trust me. And there are a lot of people who are actually PMs in the trenches who also are thinking, oh my god, what did I do to myself? So it's good to understand the different point of view as well. So I mean, just talking about people who say, okay, I consider my options and you know what, I'm going to go for it. I want to be a PM. What do you think are the key keys? Yeah, in terms of course skills, I would kind of break it down to four different areas. One is around being able to set a vision for the product, but also being able to be data-driven and analytical. Because I think you're probably, often your greatest ideas aren't going to come screaming at you from your metrics. But I do think some of the most dangerous product mistakes are made when we don't get the right metrics or we ignore the metrics. So I think that's one element, that's one core skill. I think another one is around influence. And I think that there's a key one is around influence. So if I think about the difference between a good product manager and a great product manager, I think influence is one of those differences. Sorry, my screen save was just turned on. And so I think that's one of the biggest differences. That's one of the core skills that's really there. Because like you were saying, Carlos, can you, I just want to make sure you can still hear me. Okay. Yeah, yeah, I hear you. Okay. One of the things you mentioned early on is just maybe things are, you know, almost, you think it's basically, you know, people just listen to whatever the product manager says. And like you were alluding to, I think one of the biggest challenges, one of the core skills of a PM is be able to convince and be able to, whether it's using data or whether it's using emotions, be able to convince folks of what you think is the right thing. So for instance, one way I think about it is the best product idea or best feature is useless if you can't convince people to make it happen. I think other elements around technical fluency. So like I said before, I still believe that the fastest way to be a PM is to be a PM. But I do think technical fluency is important, right? For us to be able to win the respect of our engineering counterparts, be able to go toe to toe with them, be good design partners, and also be able to push back when things are pushed back on us. And lastly, I think one of a critical skills for a PM is bringing clarity to ambiguity. When I think about kind of the biggest, most ambiguous problems that we wrestle with, I always want to be able to put a PM on it and have, she will then bring that sort of clarity to that understanding the different stakeholders, the different challenges. And so I think those are some of the core skills that I would expect that I think are critical to being a successful PM. Thank you for sharing that in such a transparent way. Now I want to talk about yourself because obviously you've been working for a long time and now I'm sure you also keep learning. I'm a big believer in the concept of lifelong learning. So what are some of those key skills? Learning to be just about work. But in general, what are you most passionate about learning? How do you make sure to save time for it? Well, let me by start off by saying I admit that I'm actually, I think I'm actually pretty terrible about this, this lifeline learning concept, Carlos. I don't have any hobbies. I don't set aside time for this. I can't remember the last time that I went to kind of a more formalized training. So I think one of the things then I have to do is make sure that learning has to be incorporated into my life or my day-to-day work. And that's the only way that happens. And so if I think about some examples of areas that I'm trying to learn on, one is in my personal life. If you ask my kids, I think their biggest frustration with me is that I'm always distracted. I'm always thinking about kind of something else or thinking about something next. And so I'm definitely working very hard on trying to be in the moment, not plan for the next natural disaster when we're already dealing and trying to trying to deal with the current one. So I think that's one is right staying focused and in the moment. When I look at my career-wise in terms of development there, I actually would think of two examples there. One is actually just in general. When I think about to your question around how do product leaders kind of grow with your organization, especially as our scope gets bigger and things like that, I think for me, I've never felt like a natural leader when it came to things. And so when I come to leadership and new leadership challenges that come about, I feel like I almost every few years have to confront myself and see if I'm ready to reinvent myself again. One way I think about it is I sometimes see myself as a rubber band, and each time the role gets bigger, you kind of stretch a little more. And you almost feel like every day you're paying a bit of a cost in terms of that stretch. When am I reaching the point where this is the most my personality or how I work will let me go? And I think I don't know if it's true for many people. I feel like that's been my journey and feeling like at those times really have to push through it and feel like how do you have not just the mental, but kind of your whole essence really bought into taking that next step and making it so it's not a feeling of constant tension and pull, but that once again you've kind of stretched to a new level. To me that's a big part of growing for me. More specifically I would say another example on growth and learning that I think is a trend that we see within the valley is more and more for product leaders. We're expected to lead a more integrated organization. So I think, so for instance at Waymo we have product management, technical program management, UX design, UX research, and product data analytics altogether. And I think those work really well together. I think there's a reason why that's a trend. But I think that's also a challenge for product leaders is that we have to build trust with these new functions that we're not going to always be biased towards product management and we'll have to learn about those domains so we can give mentorship to those areas. So if I think about those are some of the like needing to incorporate learning into our day to day and then trying to grow and learn from a personal level in terms of being in the moment and around learning about multifunction organizations. I actually shared that philosophy that you said about integrating learnings part of your life that actually comes in the world like long learning because I believe that you can only learn when you actually need it, when you're in a situation where you can either get out or up. So I think in a way that's why in college sometimes, even though we had amazing professors and very interesting topics, if you are not in a situation where you feel that you can apply it right away or you don't know how relevant this is going to be to your life, it's harder to empathize. But when you are there and something depends on you, there is no way out. That's going to really make the learning come true. Yeah, I agree. So obviously now that Waymo is larger, you're not the only PM there absolutely. So how do you balance that influence that you have as a Chief Product Officer with also the wiggle room that you want to give to your product leaders to shape the vision of the company? Yeah, I think this is actually a really timely and challenging question actually. So I would start off by I do think that the role of the Chief Product Officer or product leaders really around setting the vision and the overall guard rails of the product that we want to build and resolve conflicts especially on priorities that come up. And so your job isn't to decide every little feature and every little nuance of the product. And ideally the roadmap is an outcome of great internal brainstorms across your product team where you get the best answers. But I think the heart of the question I think is a really challenging one as a product leader understanding what's the right level right where you have accountability for the whole product but also giving autonomy to your team. And so I think about it as more of kind of like a two-step program because I would fully admit I don't feel like I've fully solved this and I feel like the first step of the program is you have to develop at least the awareness to understand when you're too high level or too detailed. Because I think you're never going to figure out the end game unless you get that sense. And whether it's cues that hey you're getting questions that you don't remember or you haven't briefed on the rationale for it. And that's kind of a signal that maybe you're too high level and you don't have enough insight and ownership. Or hey you're too detailed because you're in the weeds on something you're sensing frustration right or you don't have time to stay on the more strategic level. So I think that that awareness is critical then being able to adjust and modulate I think is a critical element. Lastly I think the second step is the ideal right where you have a clear rubric right for giving guidance to your team. Hey these things need to come to me or these things you don't. I wouldn't say I'm there yet and I think that's a kind of real that's where you want to be. So then it's very clear through the organization what needs to come to you or not. But I think you know getting at least to the first step is critical as a product leader. I have another million or maybe billion dollar question for you. So obviously Google has been notorious for building a lot of products not just external products but also internal products for employees to collaborate more efficiently. So in product we always talk about build versus buy. I'm curious to know what is your take and best practices on like when a company should decide to build something internally versus maybe leveraging an external solution. Yeah I think this is one of the areas where the alphabet structure is allowed. Google and the other bets to come up with different approaches here. And so at least for Waymo the approach that we're taking is we have a lot to do when it comes to building self-driving technology. And so overall our approach is around whenever something off the shelf can suffice for that functionality we need we'd much rather focus our engineering on things that either are core to the technology or very close and well integrated to it. I think the challenge of applying that policy is that there are going to be natural tendencies to build in-house. Whether you have more control you can own that more there's a concern that it won't be customized enough to your needs but I do think we have to think about the ongoing tax of the investing in each of the solutions so really trying to push on hey why can't we use that off the shelf software for this use case. So that I would say that's that's the best policy for us. Now I also want to talk about culture specifically product culture as your team grows especially like now across multiple demographics like how do you build a nurtured strong product culture. Yeah product culture is definitely super important. I would say that when I think about some of the most challenging areas probably three areas come to mind. One is how do you set the right balance and I know it's going to be a little controversial to say that this is a balance but there is a balance between really having a strong expectation of high performance and making sure that there's also psychological safety within the organization and I think this is something that that I've learned over the years right is I think early on it was very very focused on making sure that every output was was kind of perfect or or everything that we did was and I think the problem with that is then it creates this feeling that you know mistakes aren't allowed and so I think that's an important element to think about in terms of setting up your product culture is how do you set that good balance between the two. You want people to be able to experiment and try new things and and feel like it's sometimes okay for there to be mistakes even while you keep a high bar for your outputs. I think the other one is around collaboration. If I think about what's core to a successful product organization I feel like collaboration is at the heart of it. Like a product org lives and dies by whether it's perceived as collaborative with its cross-functional partners and I think that starts with the organization itself. How do you early on you have to make sure you stamp out any kind of elements of you know whether it's politics or selfishness and make sure that collaboration is a true value that comes right from the beginning. And I think the last one is around inclusion and diversity. I think this is definitely a relevant topic throughout the valley but I think it's also super relevant to building good product cultures. If you think about product teams we're meant to try to represent our users and unless we have that sense of diversity amongst ourselves we're not going to get all the voices heard and we're not going to then bake the best products and so we've been doing that a lot of that here at Waymo overall and then within the Waymo product org especially. We've done everything from kind of reevaluate everything in our hiring process to find whether there are any biases making sure we're getting diverse pipelines and also pulsing and making sure we understand what are possible blind spots that we have around inclusion and diversity around the overall organization. So I think those are some of the three toughest and most important elements of building a strong product organization. Thank you and I want to wrap things up when I ask you a question about the future. So where do you see most opportunity for product managers in the next few years? Yeah I think I see two trends that I think are really big opportunities for product managers. One is that I do see a continued evolution of where product management can be applied. So I think initially whether it's from early organizations or early in industry is you often find product management being more applied to user facing roles or more kind of traditional product development. I think we're continuing to see a trend. We saw this within the AV industry for instance right like where you typically apply that more to like your mobile app or your those things and then now we're seeing that kind of broaden and make sure that there's product coverage across the full technology stack and across the organization. So I think that's one important trend that I think is going to be important for the industry but also an opportunity for product managers. It's a new set of challenges for us to take on. I think the other trend is like what we talked about the very beginning right is around I think in Silicon Valley we often talk about social impact and wanting to improve the world and it's almost become just a kind of a trite phrase. But I think looking at the true moonshots the true things that we think will change society and the world for to make it a better place. I think there's continued opportunities for us to even think bigger and think beyond what is available to us today or possible today. I think those are probably two trends. One that I hope to continue I think will be really powerful for society that I think will also lead to more opportunities for product managers. Thank you for your time Dan and you're such a big thinker and an inspiration so it's been a pleasure to learn and share this time with you. Is there anything else you would like to add? No I think those are the main things that I think I'm excited thanks so much for the time here Carlos I'm really excited about what the product school has done. I agree that I think it's an amazing function as product management for us to and it's great that we're investing in it because I think it's a powerful function especially in terms of the impact that we have on society. Bye Dan thank you for everything. Of course thank you thanks for having me.