 Welcome back. So, watching the Breakfast and Plots TV African Festival, our first major conversation amongst Nigeria's next general elections in 2023 get closer, stakeholders are stressing the importance of greater citizens' participation in the electoral process. Now, why is this important? Let's remind you that subsection 2, or subsection 2a of the section 14 of the Constitution of the Federal Republic of Nigeria states, quote, sovereignty belongs to the people of Nigeria from whom government through this Constitution derives all its powers and authorities. Sovereignty belongs to the people. Now, subsection c of the same section, paragraph c of the same subsection 2 of section 14 says that participation by the people in their government shall be ensured in accordance with the provisions of its or this Constitution. So why is it important that people participate and why are the citizens not participating as they should? We have our guest to help us answer these questions and other questions as well, G.D. Johnson, who has been a regular on this program. And Dr. Enes Ereke of Yag Africa as well. G.D. Johnson, good morning to you. Good morning, Kofi, and good morning, Messi, and good morning to our viewers all over the world. Thank you very much. At the 2023 elections, I'm not really necessary around the corner, but we're getting closer with every passing day. Why is it important that citizens' participation be enhanced and increased? Well, if the Constitution states clearly that we the people, democracy is about the people and the illusion of democracy, and I say that the illusion of democracy is that majority of the people will participate in the process, that's the illusion that democracy has created that well, by right and by design, majority of the people will participate in the process of instituting democracy in any given society. However, we have seen in terms of voter turnout and citizen participation in the electoral process across the globe, where we have the Greek module of democracy, the direct representative democracy that we run, we have seen that you don't get more than 50, 55% voter turnout when it comes to the election. When you look at the last election in Nigeria, I'm sure we got 30% of the voter turnout, which led me to the conclusion that the representative democracy is actually government of the minority, perpetrated by the docility of the majority, who refused to participate in the political process, hence gives the minority the opportunity to control and manage the affairs of the state. Now, how many people? We have 80 plus million Nigerians that are registered voters. How many people elected the president in the last election? They were not up to 16 million. Thank you. Mr. Johnson, a very interesting point you've raised, just before Mercy comes in, you've raised a very important point, talking about how many people voted for the president in the last election. We can look at those figures now. The popular vote was carried by 15 million, 15 million, 15,191,847, Nigerians called a 15 million out of the total number of votes cast. So that's really a minority as far as that election is concerned. So it's small, really, really small. What response? Yes. Then you see that, you asked yourself this question. So those 15 million forested their will, that 15 million decided who would take charge of the life and make policies for the well-being of over 200 million, over close to 215 million. If you remove that 15 million from the 18, it means that those that did not support the president are actually more than those that supported the president elect. That's the reality, that's the illusion of democracy, it's the unfortunate aspect of democracy. And that's why we are found ourselves. Now, look, just last week in Ekiti state, they had their power issue, and you have a situation whereby we have seen governors being elected with less than 200,000 votes. Finally, it was elected as governor of Ekiti state with less than 200,000 votes. Soludo was elected as governor of Anambra state with less than 250,000 votes. Are you with me? And we are talking about the president of that, he was elected with less than, and they know what they are doing, because they don't want the majority of the citizens to participate. That's why they use threats, they use intimidation, they use drug greed, they do bad things, do not engage, the agencies of government that should engage in citizen education, will not engage in citizen education to mobilize the citizenry to participate in the process. So they don't want majority of the people to participate in the process in order to perpetuate themselves in power. Okay, so Jide Johnson, you have mentioned the reason why some persons do not participate in the entire process. And for me, I usually would not want to limit the election to the presidential elections. I'm talking about the entire elections. In the 36 states, we're talking about the governorship elections, the House of Representatives, I mean, all of the elections, including the local government, even though we know we haven't been very strong with local government elections for a very, you know, for some time now. But however, that's the focus. Now some people trying to interact, you know, of recent times with some persons that constantly share the reason why a lot of people are not even planning to vote in the 2023 elections. As some of them say, we already know who will become the governor of the state, we already know who will become the local government chairman, we already know who will become the president. And so it's not important. My vote does not count. Now these are some of the concerns, these are some of the issues that you still have right now as we speak as we get closer to 2023. So we'd like to share your thoughts on that. How can we change this narrative? Because 2023 is not far as we speak. The rule of the national orientation agencies, that's the rule of INEC and the rule of other government agencies that are involved, the rule of the civil society, the rule of the Nigerian Labour Congress, because when you get majority of the people to participate in the process, then you deepen democracy and then you provide the basis of legitimacy for elected representatives. Now when the narrative goes around that, oh, my vote does not count, what does agencies of government, what do they do, the National Orientation Agency, the Ministry of Information and Culture, Nigerian Television Authority, Federal Radio Corporation of Nigeria, what do they do, which are agencies, which are public information agencies, apart from being media organizations, they are also public information agencies of government. They have a role in educating, in creating awareness, in mobilizing people. We don't even know who the, let's say that what type of campaign, as federal government or state government, embarked upon to ensure that we immobilize the citizenry to participate in the process, it is easier for you to collect your ATM card than for you to collect your voter's card. It's easier. What process have we put in place to ensure that people can cap their vote easily? They don't have to go through stress, they don't have to walk 10 kilometers to cap their vote. You know, what we do with voter's card, with voter's registration drive, is to tie something with it all. If you don't get the voter's card, your children will not be able to get immunization, they will not be able to get this benefit. People get the voter's card in order to meet up with some benefits that have been tied to it. People actually get the voter's card to participate in the process and now, and so as a result of that, some will get the voter's card to get the voter's card very, very close to the office. On the day of the election, where they got voter's card from, their pulley unit is far away from their residence, so they can't go to where they actually registered. So there's no head, they can't go to the office, you can't go to the office, they can't go and get a job. So this is a political process where the four government members, the four government members might be able to get a job and they get a job and they will get a job, they might be able to get those funds and they'll be able to get the job with it properly. I mean I'm not saying that the whole country is going to get a job. But I also want that the whole country will get a job. would you be intimidated by police? And then before you open your eyes, you will just see that people with balloon boxes are besieged. That's why they found that you have M.E. security. So these are some of the issues we need to attend to. Okay, Dr. Ereke, Dr. sorry, Mr. Julejansi, we'd like to bring in Dr. Enes Ereke of Iyaga Africa and also of the Department of Political Science, a senior lecturer in the Department of Political Science University of Abuja. Enes Ereke, can you hear us please? Yes, good morning. Thanks for joining us. Julejansi, our guest here, has so eloquently put forward reasons why he thinks we have reduced a low participation by the citizens of Nigeria in elections in the past. I mean, we look at 2019 where we had just 80 out of 84 million registered voters. We're having only 34.75% voter turnout. That's including the rejected votes. That's 28.614 million votes cast. What's going on? What's the reason for this low participation? Fine. I think your guest has mentioned some of those reasons and also offered a solution to them. But then I think I would disagree a bit and probably add a few things what he said. One is that there is a trust deficit between citizens and those who govern. Now, when I mean trust deficit, I refer to the fact that Nigerians believe that they are not getting a fair deal from governments and from governors. Nigerians believe that promises are made to them during elections. Politicians make all sorts of promises and claims and eventually they disappoint Nigerians. And so Nigerians feel that they are not getting a fair deal from government and therefore they believe that it is a waste of time going to cast votes at elections. And this is a very, very serious problem because government is not delivering on employment. Government has not been delivering on infrastructure. Government has not been delivering on security. Government has not been delivering those services that will improve the living conditions of citizens. And therefore Nigerians feel that they are completely detached from government. They feel that there is no benefit being part of this thing called government. They feel that government and governors is for a few plus of people in the country. It is something exclusively reserved for the political elites who benefit from government. And therefore it is one of the major reasons. This is one of the major reasons why citizens do not turn out, you know, to vote in elections. And even in a situation where they turn out, they begin to sell their votes because they believe that selling their votes is the only thing they can get from politicians and from government. And that is one. Then secondly is the fact that elections have not been properly conducted in the real face of it in the country. Nigerians believe, just like your guests equally mentioned, Nigerians believe ultimately that before elections are conducted, that the winners of the elections are already known and determined by the political elites. Time standing in the sun under the rain just to cast a vote when the votes will not be counted and when the votes will not make a difference. And therefore citizens are discouraged largely from going out to vote in elections as a result of the fact that they believe that the system is rigged, that the system is manipulated, and that the system is already predetermined even before ballots are cast. Then equally important is to mention the fact that desperate power grabbers in Nigeria have turned politics and elections into a do or die affair. It has become warfare and therefore they unleash violence and mayhem during elections. The citizens equally fear for their lives and it discourages them from going out to vote in elections and this is added to the prevailing insecurity across the country. And so if you take the possibility of some of these factors and of course there are many more of these factors for instance there is the issue of illiteracy where people do not know they are right, there is also the issue of poverty and so on, and the polyp for civic education and enlightenment. So if you take all of these factors combined, they discourage citizens from voting in elections. But where I said I disagree a little bit is when you talk about how to address all of these whose responsibilities exist to address this. Yes, government has a role to play in mobilizing citizens to vote in elections. But importantly and ultimately the greatest beneficiaries of elections are political parties and candidates who want to occupy political offices with the responsibilities and privileges attached to those responsibilities. Political parties and candidates have not done enough in educating citizens, in mobilizing citizens, in enlightening citizens and also in giving citizens the confidence and assurance that when they are voted into office they will live through to the promises they have made. They have not done enough when you talk about rejected ballots. They have not done enough in educating and enlightening citizens about how to turn print. In political parties we must say that political parties are largely to be blamed for the low turnout number one and for even the rejected ballots that we have seen during elections in the country. If you have followed and I want to believe you have followed campaigns in the country, campaigns are turned to jamborees where people go to dance and jireh. No serious messages are given out during campaigns in Nigeria and that is one area I believe that political parties have built in terms of mobilizing and educating citizens to vote in elections. Okay, let's also look at you know post-elections. I mean this is pre-elections just before the elections, what we should do and the reason why a lot of persons have not participated and it looks as safe 2023 not to sound like you know a messenger of doom here but we probably might not just have something different from what we have always experienced in terms of participation because that's where you know the bulk, almost the bulk of the work lies but let's also look at you know just after you know the elections I mean casting your votes. What also can citizens do because there's also a quest where people say oh some elements actually hijack the ballot boxes you know the results are being you know manipulated there's no transparency in the system. Is there anything that citizens Nigerians can actually do to ensure that you know the votes are protected? Yes Nigerians have a lot to do in terms of protection of votes. The thing is that citizens must realize that on that ballot is contained, contains job opportunities, standard of living, that ballot contains good education and all of those things that we yearn for and therefore we must take the protection of those votes seriously. Now one of the things citizens can do is of course what civil society organizations have been doing in terms of encouraging and mobilizing citizens to ensure that they are eternally vigilant towards protecting their votes during elections and in time past we have seen communities where citizens resisted efforts you know by politicians and political thoughts you know to either cut away ballot boxes or electoral materials or even manipulate the system and therefore citizens resistance and vigilance is one of those measures that we can take in order to protect the sanctity of the ballot to ensure that those we vote during elections are those who eventually occupy political offices. That is one of the things that you know citizens must do, eternal vigilance and resistance you know to some of these political you know power grabbers. That is one thing Nigerians must do in order to ensure that their votes are protected. Importantly is to mention that the integrity we have called to question the integrity of the electoral process which dissuades and discourages citizens from participating in elections. We have mentioned that the integrity of the process can be called to question but good enough through the continued agitation of Nigeria and sustained campaigns and advocacy around all of this the National Assembly has amended the electoral law with some very progressive provisions that will ensure that our elections become critical and therefore we are hopeful that as soon as the president signs the bill as we are expecting that he will do this week as soon as he signs the bill it will mark a new chapter in the conduct of elections in Nigeria. It will enthrone integrity and restore citizens confidence in the electoral process and therefore I believe strongly that through the electoral bill which has been amended through the electoral act which has been amended that we can begin to improve our elections restore integrity in the process and citizens will have more confidence in the electoral process and it is therefore important that we call on all Nigeria's to continue to sustain the call that the president should sign that bill so that we can sanitize our electoral process and system. All right thank you very much Dr Rick let's come back to Mr Jilly Johnson. Mr Johnson we have some statistics here I would also like to go back to and of course like you mentioned earlier about 34% but precisely 34.75% of registered voters came out to vote in the 2019 presidential election. Out of those 34.75% we have you know 20 28.614 million votes that's what it represents out of the total registered voters of 82.344 million so we look at 28.614 million votes at Tikko Abubakar polled 11 million votes Muhammad Ibu Harry polled 15 million votes you add the two votes together you have 26 million votes out of all the voters that we have registered in Nigeria of 82.3 million voters 56 million people did not vote so we have a pool of 56 million that are waiting to be taken that's on one side now we look at the other political parties and the votes that they had all the parties combined had about 2.6 million votes only 2.6 million votes which is very very minute about just just about about 3.2 percent of the entire vote 3.2 percent of the entire vote cast in the 2019 presidential elections and Dr Rick has talked about the fact the political parties need to pull their weight it seems these small parties are not pulling their weights enough I mean 2.6 million votes why why do we why do we register those parties why does our ballot paper look like ledger it's waste waste of resources we have said it and next you stop wasting taxpayers money by registering and making provisions on the ballot paper for parties nonexistent parties in fact we only have political platforms I agree what doctor and I said concerning parties should do more political parties are just one of the major stakeholders in the in the political environment they should do more but however we don't have political parties in Nigeria what we have is political platforms people just use these platforms to run for election after they run for election they don't do the structure of this of this and party political parties to I make has a role to play I make is the umpire I make is the body I make is the body we vote huge amount of money for to conduct elections to be in charge of elections and you know we have pre-election election and post-election so if you were if you examine I make election activities and post-election activities what has been the performance of I make apart from the political parties because they have a role to play in that apart from the political parties I make has a role to play religious institutions have a role to play student unionism what have we done to student unionism across campuses in Nigeria because you need some level of student activism because majority of the voters are actually people between the ages of 19 and 30 and what do we do to student unionism we kill it we burn it on campuses I am part and parcel of it I work in tertiary institution Dr. Ernest that is there to his part and parcel of it majority of the VC today were were a student union but across Nigeria we have destroyed student unionism we have to exist and the student union is the platform through which you provide leadership for public governance in future and then you also use as the food soldier for the civil society so invariably we have shut ourselves in the food by not allowing some certain institution that should be in place not to be in place I have said it over and over time again if I have an opportunity to come before the committees of vice-cancelors and rectors of I will tell them allow student union to try if you want the society to be better allow student unionism let's us have student unionism we need it to do in order for us to deepen this democracy Nigerian Labour Congress where is Nigerian Labour Congress where is the organized civil society where is the civil society beyond we can't leave it to the political parties because the political parties don't even want people to perform parties that can that cannot run their own affair ordinary conducting conventions their convention for their parties they can't do it they are now asking them to be involved in individual elections so there are institutions that we should use the security agencies in what way do security agencies encourage the citizen participation in the process do they intimidate to do their life or do they create an atmosphere for the for for for for citizens to feel free to participate to let the electoral process look like a carnival but but but but mr jenny johnson you've talked about the heavy what you called the heavy militarization of our elections ns the rick has talked about the do or die attitude of politicians that leads to electoral violence people will still not feel safe if they hearing gunshots all over the place from thugs hired by politicians to scuttle elections these days they don't steal ballot boxes because it doesn't work they just go and scatter everything so we need the security agencies to provide safety it's a fact of even i mean in school you know both of you agree even in exams here we have policemen outside the hall as as low as the way ike exams we have policemen outside the hall because of what could happen and so so can we have elections without security officials now i agree with you but the thing is that the security are we do we train our security officers to know what to be their role during election now in america the moment they deploy the soldiers into the school safety they are no longer regarded as soldiers they are called what national guard they call national guard they are natural disasters who are those that they deploy they are called natural guard so we need to make investment in educating them even with the heavy deployment of security i'm telling you kofi we still see people you ask yourself are these people snatching ballot papers are these thugs are they spirit how do they maneuver the various roadblocks you have during election for you to perpetuate your people if you have ever been involved in election if you have ever been involved in monitoring election you will know that we have every presence of security all over the nation yet that does not for store the people for maintain trouble from fermenting trouble then you begin to wonder why do we deploy the security in the first in the first instance so we need to develop an holistic approach beyond political parties the media has a role to play which is what your station is trying to do and many other stations in creating citizen awareness in creating citizen education in providing a platform through which cities can be educated and they can take informed decisions so the electorate themselves who are the political parties elector bodies the religious institutions the religious beyond going to us or to see the president beyond going to state house to do a thanksgiving prayer thanksgiving prayer every beginning of the year or the end of the year now that's when you see general overseers of churches going what has been their role in educating their members to participate in the political in the political process so these traditional institutions what has been the role of traditional rulers traditional traditional rulers then community based association so we can leave this to political parties alone there are different bodies that should be involved and as you get involved in the management of of this for us to really case citizen education massive citizen participation in the electoral in the electoral process and also the courts the judiciary must give people the confidence that they are an independent arbiter was the judiciary rules in favor of people's choices of people's will you discover that we have an increased participation in the democratic process okay so let's also bring in ennis siri k dr ennis siri k into the conversation as well can you hear me dr ennis yes i can hear you okay so um i like to be very real some of the issues that we have had because it would be our experience and looking at 2023 now money politics or politics of money however i want to put it has constantly dominated the scene and that has been you know a big issue for us in terms of dictating who becomes governor and who becomes president and what have you in our elections so i'd like also to ask do citizens have a role to play in the politics you know the money politics that we practice in our elections and ahead of 2023 how can we you know change this narrative how can nigerians change this narrative and so that we can have a better outcome because at the end of the day you find that people who are complaining those who did not participate in the process and those who participated and however sold their votes so it brings us back you know to the same position the question that would be is there anything that nigerians can do as citizens you know to move away from this kind of practice and ideology yeah um thank you very much and i think it is a double-edged sword and perhaps we can say we have found ourselves as a country in a catch-22 situation in the sense that we have desperate politicians who grab power as we mentioned earlier and then we have citizens who are poor and citizens who feel that they don't have any other benefit from the system apart from you know on the day of the election when they sell their votes and so you have these two factors reinforcing each other you have politicians who want this power at all costs and therefore they invest heavily in the system they invest heavily into elections and then you have citizens who are willing you know to to sell votes because number one they are poor number two they feel that this is the only benefit they can get from system so they reinforce each other and that is why I said I said it is a catch-22 situation and this has been the pain of our elections ever since we started improving the electoral system you know politicians realized that one of the potent ways of you know building elections is to buy votes but that signals that there is an improvement in our electoral system and therefore they have resulted to buying votes but then we have seen just recently in the november 16 governorship election in an umbrella state we saw these same citizens these same impoverished citizens who rejected monies that were giving to them to vote for you know some particular candidates you know in in that election and so that signals hope that shows that Nigerians really who understand the issues at stake during elections and it also means that Nigerians can begin to resist this temptation and the urge to sell their votes now I do not subscribe you know to to the campaign but in some quarters Nigerians should go ahead collect these monies and still vote the way they wish to vote now that will now help the situation what will help the situation is to outrightly reject and resist these money backs who spend a lot of money in purchasing votes during elections instead of connecting the money and then saying yes I will collect from party a and vote for party b that will not solve the problem and it will not help the situation what will help the situation is outright rejection of of of these monies that are fired during elections but again and and very very important is that credible individuals credible citizens was beginning to throw themselves into the ring we can no longer continue to stay away from from from the system and continue to complain about the system there are professionals there are credible Nigerians who can go into the system and inspire confidence you know in in in Nigeria and therefore we by doing so we can begin to defeat these money but we have seen it happen in some parts of the country and nothing says that we cannot replicate you know these in most parts of the country so long as credible Nigerians offer themselves you know to run your face of this country yes indeed I agree that political parties are badly managed in the country but then again Nigerians should continue to hold these political parties to account and ensure that these parties do not just produce money backs as candidates for elections but people who have character people who are competent and people who have the capacity you know to inspire the kind of confidence that Nigerians are looking for you will recall that 2015 general election uh what's really sold to the president was his past record and uh and his perceived character and his perceived competence and his perceived uh yeah his perceived uh uh attitudes towards you know corruption that was what sold you know the president you will recall that the president then said okay he did all the kind of resources to purchase the nomination of his political party and yet Nigerians voted for him on the strength of his perceived character and competence and therefore I believe that if we continue to enthrone people who are genuinely who are genuinely willing to offer services to Nigerians Nigerians will begin you know to ditch the money backs and go for such credible thank you very much dr. Rekia thank you we wish we had more time because this is a very important issue to discuss but um uh regarding the the uh coming by uh uh jillie johnson seen a lecture on Nigerians of journalism um uh of of the role of the clergy or religious leaders um a you you will recall if you if you already know that um uh a church in Ikeja uh dedicated a sunday to pvc registration for their members so that's a positive one but I cannot leave out the fact that um uh some some some pastors and priests came together at the church somewhere in Nigeria south west to pray for one of the um early announcers of the agitation for the presidency uh as ashe wajib alatino they had an intensive prayers to clear out anyone who stood in his way uh i went to do a program on the co fm that thing and I actually appeared on your program in the morning that same day but as soon so blue roof the kani keja came together to pray for uh that's not what we call them to do what we call them to do is for them those ones they went there to collect money that's just the the basic to all right we have to go sir we have to go sir I'm I'm so sorry to to to interrupt you but we have to leave it at that um people like the flag boy have been going around um um Legos trying to advocate for for um Nigerians to pick their pvc you know can see pictures on our screen um he's been to several places like Ikeja computer village or Judo beggar bigfoot um the tunnel at mariland seven up oregon yaba bridge yano waro and the third mainland bridge he was the one who was flying the flag during the ensas protests but the issue is this with so many people who have we just registered to vote and not voting should be focusing on go vote or on get your pvc that's a debate we can talk about next time thank you very much um jenny johnson seen a lecturer Nigerian sort of journalism and of course uh nsr rake of yaga africa and the university of abuja department of political science thank you gentlemen for your time thank you thank you we appreciate you gentlemen thank you so much well that's the conversation as regards the role of you know citizens in the common elections I mean it goes beyond all of the complaints and all of the activities activism if you want to see on social media we also have a role to play and I always believe that there's always a human path to every miracle you have a role to play you ask an important question which is um the the poverty in the land and the role of the the demands we make yeah if you don't have money today you go tell them as far to as far to require the desire your admirer they'll tell you get out of here oh my mercy well that's the much we can take we will definitely step on the brakes when we return we'll look at the second conversation the issue of urbanization urban farming in Lagos state has been called by the authorities how viable and how visible is this call for farming in Lagos stay with us we'll be right back