 Hello. Welcome everyone. I'm Sarah Kanza, Program Associate at the Archaeological Research Facility. I'd like to begin today with a land acknowledgement modeled on that developed by the Native American Student Development Office in partnership with the Muwefma Aloni tribe. We consider this a working formulation to be replaced with language reflecting the part of the particular position of the ARF community and developed in collaboration with appropriate stakeholders. The Archaeological Research Facility sits on the territory of Puchin, the ancestral and unceded land of the Chicheno Aloni, the successors of the historic and sovereign Verona Band of Alameda County. We hereby acknowledge that this land remains of great importance to the Aloni people, that every member of the ARF community benefits from the continued occupation of this land, and that it is our responsibility to support indigenous sovereignty and hold the University of California accountable to the needs of the American Indian and indigenous peoples. So thank you for joining us today for a special Cal Week panel discussion about doing archaeological research in the time of COVID. Since most of last summer's field work was canceled and much of the coming summers will be as well, archaeologists have had to make some big adjustments to the way that they do their work in order to continue their research while staying safely at home. So I'm happy to introduce our two speakers who are generously sharing some of their time today to tell us about their experiences in practicing archaeology during the COVID-19 pandemic. First we'll hear from Kim Shelton, who was a professor of classics at UC Berkeley. Kim excavates the prehistoric site of Mycenae and the classical sanctuary of Nomea both in Greece. As a specialist in ceramics, she works with material culture and involves many students in her research here and abroad. Currently she's working on the earliest manifestations of Greek religious ritual through permanent architectural establishments and recognized paraphernalia such as figurines. And then we'll hear from Lucy Gill, who is a graduate student in the Department of Anthropology also at UC Berkeley. Lucy's research sits at the intersection of anthropological archaeology and historical ecology, employing community based participatory research practices as the foundation for empirically rigorous data collection and theoretical formulation. She co-directs Darian Profundo, a collaborative project based in Eastern Panama, which employs community mapping, paleoecology and ethnography, in addition to archaeological field and laboratory methods to document the deep local history of Darian province. These investigations have implications for ecological conservation and indigenous sovereignty within the area, and her work develops strategies for collaboration with various stakeholder communities at all phases of the research process. So thank you so much Kim and Lucy for joining us today and we'll just launch into it with starting with Kim and if people could ask their questions in the chat box, we will get to questions after the speakers present. Thank you. Great, thank you Sarah for the nice introduction and thank you all for being here today and being interested in alternative forms of archaeological research. I'm going to share my screen so that I can illustrate some of the stuff that we have been working on in our past field season, which we call the virtual field season. And in fact what we went into when COVID started was thinking of course about the worsening situation last spring, we generally plan for going into the field for going to Greece already in February and March. We're doing that kind of planning so it was, we almost didn't understand what was going to be happening. And then of course is as the spring progressed it was it was clear that we were not going to be able to travel to Greece, even though actually in Greece things were were much better under control than they were in this country but still it was not it was not possible to to travel so we ended up rethinking what our goals were for the summer we were meant to have been excavating at actually a third research site that we're working on a late Bronze Age cemetery at the site of Ivonia, which is just to the northwest of Nimea and the sanctuary of Zeus. So we knew that that was that was not going to happen there was nothing we could do about that, but that we didn't have to lose a research season that luckily there were lots of things that we could do virtually. At the same time my team of archaeologists that are at various different institutions but also a number of graduate students here at UC Berkeley, we're feeling kind of untethered and and it seems so odd not be all together over the summer which is what we were so used to doing we put this plan together and participated in what we call the virtual field season, and I'm just going to show you some of the things that we that we did one really great addition to that was a program that I'm involved in here at the university the undergraduate research apprentice program or you wrap. And we normally do that during the academic year and in the Nimea Center on campus and in dwindle hall, but we had already shifted to a remote format, and the you wrap students were able to continue. And in some cases change their focus of what they were working on, but ultimately they contributed to our publication preparation and to the virtual field season by doing a lot of data entry using Google sheets and illustrating our finds that we had the preliminary drawings for doing that with the Adobe Illustrator and luckily, again, all of that was able to go remote, and they were able to stay engaged and we were able to make significant progress on preparation for a lot of our work. Over the summer though, the sort of core group of the Nimea Center team, organized a system of virtual work sessions, we mapped out over the course from the beginning of June to the middle of August, how we would divide up our study, primarily of the sanctuary that we produced and our excavations that we conducted between 2010 and 2012, for which we are in the publication preparation but there was a lot that could be done that needed to be done. The lucky that we had in fact, virtually recorded that we digitally scanned photographs, plans, drawings, documents that we had recorded paper documents, and notebooks that we've recorded in the field. We had two of our team members were in Greece working on their dissertations and our conservator was still actually working since you can't do artifact conservation from home. She was able to go into the museum, she was the only one working on site. And so from these three individuals they were actually able to get to material if we needed it on occasion, including doing some 3D scanning of objects that I'll be showing you in a second. So we also set up, we call ourselves our summer families since we spend so much time together every year, and we set up a communication system through Slack that we could, you know, text with each other back and forth make different groups that we, you know, focused on that project. We set up a Google Docs file, a Google Drive file where we had all of the materials that everyone needed to tap into and use. We met every day on weekdays for about half an hour to 40 minutes for, but you can see here through zoom for a zoom meeting we called snack. Normally in the summer we take a break mid morning for what the British like to call a second breakfast, and what the Greeks call a colasso. And so we celebrated that by doing it. Every day, and it was from 11am on Pacific time to 9pm in Greece and we had people in all of pretty much every time zone, spreading from Pacific time to Eastern European time so that was a nice way to connect to see each other to talk and maybe just for fun or if there was an issue on the on the project that was the time that we could highlight that and talk about it or set up a meeting for for afterwards. And so the the individual team members worked on first kind of individually going through the documents the photographs understanding none of none of these graduate students had worked in this excavation they've all joined the program since then so it was great for them to practice what many of us do in our career, going back and researching and preparing for publication. An earlier older excavation I told them at least this one happened in the 21st century, rather than the 19th century one that I've been working on at my senior as an example. So this was, I think, good training for them and good for those of us who had excavated the site to actually see how things were analyzed by others as well. So they worked both individually but then also in teams. I'm going to show you this is so these are some of the platforms and some of the things that we did I'll show them to you again, but we had divided up this is the way we had excavated this portion of the site what we call the Southwest Sanctuary area at the Sanctuary of Zucitane, and we had it by these grid squares that the whole site is laid out over grid squares. And so we could assign individual team members to certain trenches and and they could look at it over the three years of excavation, sort of bring that together. And then they worked as teams in order to look at things thematically so to look across the site and compare the types of things that were found, and one of them was looking at at landscape management. Another team was looking at ritual process. They were looking at the prehistoric period of which we found a lot of material we weren't expecting an excavation, but also a lot of late antique material as well that was found so those were the types of coordinating and collaborating parts of the the group as well so we had individual projects and collaborative projects. And of course if things, if they got really stuck, they could ask the excavator what does this say I can't read your notebook. That's I'm sorry I know it's the worst. I did of course as I said we were lucky that we had in fact begun to digitize, starting with our own material and then of course going backwards in time to digitize all of the paper materials as well so we had all different kinds of recording sheets that were done on site at the excavation. We gives us firsthand information, we have the notebooks that were also recorded live on site, and then we have other materials like things recorded when we studied the finds in the museum we have Harris matrices, all of these all brought together and brought to bear an understanding and reconstructing, not only and the excavation but what we could get out of that. That included of course drawings of things in the excavator photographs and drawings from the excavation itself. We have all of the, the points from our total station so everything could be put back into the ground as it were in a in a reconstructed sense. We have the photos of both repaired objects but also our shirts. We commissioned some additional drawings to be done by one of our team members that was there at Nomea and can pull stuff out and we found some holes and things that were missing. And this again is just a sample of the sort of things that we did the mapping out using information to to create a section out of a section drawing out of the photographs itself. Getting together over zoom and we're doing an annotation using the annotation tool over zoom to to mark out and understand what we were seeing in the photographs and interpreting from the notes. We reconstructing that in a number of different formats using things like Photoshop and illustrator recreating the this is from the formation the landscape formation that went through a different periods of time. We're also doing our maps and plans based on different activities and different chronological periods. So all of that meant that basically when we hit the fall, we were able to really pull everything together everything was there, including new catalogs, ready to go for the publication, and that's been been one of the focuses of of what I've been doing this year in addition to teaching remotely in coven. I think I would just say we did do we have a 3D scanner and if we had access to the man center we could do some 3D printing, but in the meantime we have a sketch fab site where we have a lot of our materials from Nomea scan 3D scan that are that are accessible for use. I've been using them in teaching this year which has been great, since we don't have access to to any materials we might have otherwise. And I'm all at a very quick. After Kota as it were to this to this that we didn't we were unable to excavate at our site at the site of I don't know the bronze age cemetery. And unfortunately, the fact that we weren't there was apparently noticed and there was a looting incident that occurred at the late part of September this is how luckily though the mechanisms that we have in place. It happened very quickly within 24 hours that this looting. Let's call it an attempt. I had happened. And for the very first time that I've ever tried this we actually did a rescue excavation that in through the month of October that included remote directing yours truly. We had a Wi Fi hotspot on the site and I was, I consulted with them through the night if necessary, although I have to say my team, my team did a great job and these are these are some older teams that we had dug previous to this and it was, it was nearby and I can't, I can't show you a lot of materials yet. Everything is waiting for us to get back to the museum, but we did find that most of the tomb was in fact intact. We were able to save I would say the vast majority of the excavation but it was, I was a crazy trans Atlantic team effort, both with the folks on the ground in Greece and those of us including our bio archaeologists who were phoning in consulting constantly in order to allow this remote excavation to happen. So that's my, that's my sense of virtual archaeology in the time of coven. And of course a lot of these things may well continue through into this, this season as well. Thank you so much Kim. It's great to hear about your work. We'll move on to Lucy now and then we'll ask, we'll take questions after that. Thank you so much Sarah and yeah thanks for for getting us started Kim I especially want to hear about the, the sort of virtual directing that's really fascinating. All right, hopefully you can see this. So I'm only going to give a couple of slides and then I'm going to jump into showing you a couple of websites that I think are better illustrations of what I've been working on. So I am the co-director of a project called Darien Profundo as Sarah said in the introduction. Thank you very much for this introduction, which is co-directed by myself, Dr. Natalia Donner at Lyman University, and Dr. Tomas Mandisabal at the Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute in Panama City. So the project is called Darien Profundo because it's situated in Darien Province in eastern Panama. And the name for this project actually comes from a quote by a community leader, Noe Alvarado, who was describing the deep history of the province, Profundo means deep in Spanish. We thought that that really illustrated what we were trying to do, which is tell local community histories that often get forgotten. And hopefully we'll be able to demonstrate to you. This has had really devastating implications, including during COVID-19. So, as you can see at the bottom, it's a very collaborative project, lots of different institutions involved. I won't be talking so much about this today, but I should say that we have a very strong ongoing collaboration with the Universidad Tecnológica de Panama, who are doing ecological work in the province. And as I'll speak about a little bit later, also really important, especially in light of COVID. And the sort of virtual component of the project that I've been working on is really done in collaboration with a friend of mine, Dr. Kristen Carlson at Illinois State University. She is part of a program called the Program for Creative Technologies. And some of her graduate students, Kim Brucker and Liv C. Schlink, and then a URAP of mine, Katie Ibsen here at Berkeley. So the undergraduate research apprenticeship program that Kim was describing has been really phenomenal. And I've had URAPs working on a couple of different projects, one of which I'm talking about today. So before I show you what we've been working on, here's just a little introduction to my study area for those of you who aren't familiar. So as you can see in this map in the upper right hand corner, here's Panama, here's the Columbia border. And then my study areas is sort of this yellow oval more or less, which is the Gulf of San Miguel watershed, you can see down here. You may have heard of this in the context of the discovery of the Pacific Ocean by Balboa, Spanish conquistador. He described, you know, coming up this river, the Tuira, and encountering this beautiful Gulf and, you know, claiming the ocean for Spain. So that's what people mostly know about the province. What people don't know about the province is that it is still home to a lot of different indigenous communities, which I will show you in this map one second. Okay. So as I mentioned, one of the problems with this area is that there's been very little research done, mostly because it's a very remote area, as you can see here. There are very few roads. And so it becomes, it's a bit logistically complicated to do research there. The other reason is that it's sort of treated as very isolated from Panama City and from the rest of Panama. So it's really seen as like Darien is, it's almost seen as not part of Panama. And so what that means is that it doesn't get a lot of attention from the national government. And that has resulted in a lot of indigenous communities not being recognized as even existing. So not being found on national maps. And so that is something that I'm trying to address in my project. Which we are collaborating with several communities to in particular at the moment to create very detailed community maps that map not only archeological sites, but also as they're sort of traditionally defined in archeology, but also distant historical sites to really tell the deep local history of these communities within their ecosystem. And these have real implications in terms of land claims. So there was a law passed in 2019 that allows indigenous communities to apply for land titles to lands that are currently part of national park, national park land. As well as other areas, but the national park land is sort of the new, the newest part of this law. And so what that means is a lot of communities are, for the first time, eligible for recognition of their land holdings that they've, you know, had since been successful by the national government and this of course comes with a lot of important resources and control. Unfortunately, because of COVID only one community so far has actually been able to successfully take advantage of this new law. So these communities remain unmapped. And so this is an example of the areas in dark green are indigenous communities. This is specifically zoomed in to my study area but you can see, you can zoom out if you want to visit the website and get a sense of what the distribution of these territories is across Panama. The map was created by the Rainforest Foundation, who has done a lot of work in the end. I am, I was supposed to start collaborating with them actually last summer to do some of this mapping work in person. Obviously that's been delayed, but they really very successfully use this foundation of indigenous mapping that they had done in service of indigenous claims for COVID related purposes and so this is a map of indigenous communities overlaid with various types of information related to COVID. So the red circles are COVID cases. These sort of red circles with hands are various sort of humanitarian organizations. Wifi hotspots that are labeled and there are hospitals that are labeled. And so the purpose of this map is really to help the national government properly respond to the needs of indigenous communities. Because, as you can see if you if you look this up and read about it. One of the big issues has been that the national government has sent a lot of supplies to Darien, but they've been sort of concentrated in big cities and haven't actually made their way to these communities. And the communities have been really good about keeping themselves isolated. But of course that comes at a cost. If people are in need of a hospital or in need of supplies. There's no way to sort of it's hard to communicate. People have cell phones to some extent but not always. And so it can be it can be challenging to sort of logistically organize this. And so, and again, the fact that there are no maps of many of these communities at all in general, made it really really hard to coordinate this response. So, obviously, my work is not life or death in the way that COVID response has been. But second, but it does contribute to the same aim of community based mapping. And hopefully will make it easier for, you know, governmental organizations or anyone to sort of have a sense of, yeah, indigenous conceptions of place and just where it practically where these communities are located, as well as again be used in different cases in the future. So, while we were not able to carry out the mapping on the ground that we had planned. I worked with Kristen and her students to create this interface for virtually recording archaeological and other types of information. So, this is still very much in progress but you can see here. Here's a map of some of the different types of artifacts that one can record. They show up on this map. And then anyone can submit data to this and the site is in Spanish and English at the moment. And you can see here, hopefully this will load. Yeah. So this is using an application called Kobo toolbox. Here's the Spanish version, and you can record, it will record the location of your GPS on your phone or whatever. And then you can record relevant information about the site, which, you know, changes based on what type of site you're recording. So if you're recording a petroglyph, it'll ask you for certain information. You can enter as much or as little as you want. And then you can also attach images, you can attach audio recordings and other types of sort of media media information about the site. And this was really the sort of idea for this was because community members who I've fortunately been able to keep in touch with through WhatsApp. Were sending me photos of archaeological sites and artifacts that they had found, sending me photos and sending me GPS coordinates. And so I thought, you know, having a sort of structured way for community members to contribute to this mapping project, even when I'm not there, would be quite useful. So anyone can submit via this website. You can also submit via a QR code or the application itself. And so yeah, now that the infrastructure is built. The next step is basically troubleshooting on the ground, and then revising in accordance with the needs of the communities. I will stop there. Thanks. Thank you very much Lucy. And Kim. So if people who are watching have questions we actually the chat is not it's disabled right now so if you want to email me, you can email send an email to our dash programs at Berkeley.edu and send your questions that way. But I'm just going to start with a couple of questions I prepared. So, to both of you. This work that you've done this year. Do you see it impacting your practice, when you're when it's safe to go back to the field like how has this work this year sort of enlightened or, or, you know, other. Was it mostly sort of a stop gap for this year or do you see bringing some of what you what you did this year into into subsequent field based years. I would say that it on the one hand it emphasized for me the importance of digital recording in a way that you take for granted and some things that you just assume you're going to be working on, you know holding in your hands. And so I think that will continue and we will in fact do more of it. And so I think that it also means that there are there have been many seasons where we've had people for for various reasons who haven't been able to join us, but play an important role, and this means you know, regardless of the 10 hour time difference that that's going to be an issue will continue to work on that. But it does mean that we can have remote participants in a way that we never really even consider doing before and it's, it's shown us that it's a possibility. So I think that's something we definitely will continue to do going forward. Yeah, and I would say, you know, for me as well, this sort of application website in progress was born out of COVID but, you know, I'm only in the field for maximum three to four months a year. And whereas, you know, a lot of my community partners are there all year round and so the idea that people can contribute to this mapping project. Again, that has sort of real political implications for communities is a huge advantage and I've talked with also like Dr. Rosemary Joyce my advisor. She has had an ongoing project in Honduras for almost three decades and, you know, because of the political situation, she's been able to be there in person, you know, a variable amount but of course there are still communities that she's in a lot of contact with who have sort of like Facebook groups where they, you know, post various types of cultural heritage and she provides, you know, feedback about it. And she's saying also that this potentially could be something she would look into sort of creating a version of for her work. Interesting. Since Kim did bring up the issue of looting and when nobody was there what Lucy in your work. I saw that there was a login for that to access that the Kobo two box app is that is this a publicly available database or is that what are your concerns for sort of other concerns around around the protection of what's found and what totally. Yeah, so anyone can submit data, but nobody can actually access the database without a login. And so there will be a map that's created, but the resolution is not very high right so the resolution will be basically to the level of and that's how it is right now for the few things that are on there. So the resolution is like to the level of the nearest community. So basically you could, you know, theoretically go to that community. You know, I think that's sort of in keeping with the idea of these communities as stewards of the cultural heritage. You know, yeah, the GPS coordinates are certainly not accessible to anyone outside of specified individuals. I would also say I was really interested by the looting thing because I meant to say this earlier but I forgot that logging has been a big issue in dot again like in the same way that it has been in the Amazon during this time period. So I'm working with the ecological team to try to do some remote sensing mapping of the implications of COVID on deforestation in dot again. So I don't have any results to share from that yet but that is something that has been reported to me on the ground and something you can read about as well there have been a couple of media articles written about it. So we can include some of those links in the below the video here. And Kim looking at your, when you were showing sort of talking about your project, your project members coming together resume and stuff and looking at all this digital documentation from your site. Did you learn important things about maybe how you're documenting in the field that you might change or in the future now that you've actually all tried to work together on like reading that documentation and analyzing it together. Yeah, in fact, I would say that we were pretty proud of ourselves that the system that we had developed, which lots of students complained about redundancy, right and we as we all know archaeology has to be redundant. As long as we're using even with even with electronic documentation, we still are redundant and keeping keeping hard copies for lots of reasons. And we did feel like in fact working with the, the back those kinds of materials was really useful that where things broke down was the transition into the post processing that that was not as standardized, which I think is. I'm more of a dirt person right so I had that all sort of figured out and, and knew what it was that I had been missing with working with old excavations and I was like I wanted to make sure that the stuff was available. Um, but I hadn't, I hadn't accounted for for the processes within the museum and the workroom that could be better fine tuned and I think that that's something that will improve on absolutely that that we're happy that we've digitized things as I said will digitize more. But the recording is I think going to be done slightly differently to help solve some of the issues that came up and continue to come up from all of the all of the team members. That was that was very useful going forward. Yeah, it's kind of like having a quality control check on your own excavation you know to be forced to stop partway through and make sure you're actually collecting things in a way that you can understand that others can understand. Exactly. Exactly. No but I thought it was I thought it and I was glad. I was really inspired by a lot of the innovative ways that the the team members were able to, you know, take take the narrative and the recording sheets and turn them into reconstructions and and things that you know we had we had not gotten to that process so maybe it was inevitable but I don't think so I think they were very experimental being stuck in your house on your computer allowed them the kind of inspiration and energy to to experiment and see what what technology could be applied. And I think that that too will help. I mean I what I thought of very much a number of years ago as a big book, big hard book. I'm thinking now much more about something that's going to be electronic and interactive based based on the things that we've been we're able to do just this last summer. That's great. And thinking about working with people in the local communities and you know, having to keep in touch with people. Did you find particularly challenges and you know how did you actually communicate with people I know you mentioned a few different ways. Was it do you feel like that's something that you would continue moving forward like in between excavation seasons or visits to the field or other ways that you were able to keep in touch. I think that is improved over previous years just because you weren't sort of forced to do it previously. For both of us are pretty sure Lucy first. Yeah, I mean, I think I've always, you know, just sort of texted with people in between seasons or whatever. I have some friends on Facebook from buddy and although most people prefer WhatsApp. So that's always been something that I've, you know, I've used mostly for just social reasons. But I think in this case it became a little bit more pragmatic. And again, thinking of like, okay, we have these plans for what we all want to work on together. We weren't able to achieve that. Obviously, we're also really busy trying to protect their communities and so, you know, that was archaeology was certainly not going to be anyone's main focus. But, you know, it did allow people to just, you know, sending pictures of things when they found them and stuff to, yeah, sort of contribute to this larger project as they were coming across things make sure that just, just, yeah, start to create a bit of collective memory as well. Because there are some communities where these archaeological sites are very much already within the collective memory of the community. You know, these are things that people still go that people are continually engaging with. There are other communities, however, where, you know, these are things that people sort of will find while farming and keeping their house because they think it looks pretty but don't necessarily associate it with, yeah, like the sort of unique history of their place, for example. And so, but through our conversations, they certainly, you know, began to and recognize how important this was. And, yeah, wanted to sort of keep contributing to that project as they were, yeah, coming across things. And so, yeah, I think it will certainly keep being important and, you know, again I think because just of the economic situation in Panama relative to the United States and particularly the remoteness of that again, you know, the likelihood that people will be vaccinated soon is not very high and so, it's like about 4% of Panama is currently vaccinated, which is obviously much less than the United States and they have only 4 million people. And so, and it's very difficult to reach a lot of these indigenous communities, particularly if you don't know where they are. So hopefully with these mapping efforts, the government will be able to do a better job of reaching people, but all that is to say, I don't know when I'll actually be able to go back. And so, having these sort of communication networks in place does feel really important. It's kind of nice because it seems like it. So often in field work, you know, excavations happen or field work happens and it's a very set amount, you know, period of time, the team shows up, they do their thing and they leave and so it's kind of nice to have crossed that barrier now that actually this work is ongoing throughout the year it's just that we're not physically there, but it doesn't mean that these kinds things can't continue we can't keep, you know, you should keep discussing it throughout the year you don't just leave it behind. Yeah, so that's nice. Kim, can you talk a little bit? No, I was, I was just going to say real quick that that in some ways my situation is diametrically opposed to Lucy's and in other ways it's exactly the same, but because we have a large archaeological site that is, you know, fenced and guarded. It's not behind me in the picture but then all of these other sites that are not that are still in the actively utilized landscape. We are on one hand I need to be in, in contact with the folks about the maintenance of the site and I'll, you know, Yeah, but it's so important and of course the the long term maintenance and protection of the outside sites is really about the local people. If they thought when they thought that no one cared about it. They weren't really paying much attention either. The fact that they know that now that it's important and we're invested in it means that they're keeping an eye on it too, which is why the looting situation was discovered so quickly. In the past, it would have been a lost cause. And in your work to document that I mean how was it, what was it like having the, like you said the human osteologist was there on, or no was zooming in to look where they, she was also, she was also zooming in. Luckily, luckily in some ways, my two of my graduate students who are, you know, both ABD and they've been in Greece for a while and they've worked with me for many years. They know, they know the system they know the stuff they knew when they needed to call and when they could make a decision on the ground, but talking about different forms of communication it was often true. I would wake up in the morning, if I hadn't heard from them in the night that was usually a good thing event that nothing terrible it happened. But they all everyone wanted to talk to me so I would usually have somebody on zoom and somebody on messenger and someone on FaceTime, and we would be, you know, sort of I had four or five different conversations going on with the topographer with a conservator with my two students who were directing with individual workmen sometimes. So it was really, it was really something but I kept thinking, you know, it wasn't that long ago that we didn't have this, this kind of communication. And it was also interesting that because we, we have a, we have a security camera that we put up while we're working. And in this case, I of course, the middle of the night in Greece was all day here. So I'm, you know, teaching or whatever I'd start getting these notices that the cameras going off and I'm like, Oh, and I better look at the camera you know it's a fox walking by or something you know like oh well that's good it's just our, our friend the fox but the technology really was amazing that it, we would not have been able to do it as successfully as we did not to mention I mean, thank goodness we're going to have the photogrammetry and we're going to have all these things that we recorded at every level. That will help us replicate being there, even more so when we study the material. Yeah, so I think I know that a lot of professional societies have considered you know going to every other year virtual sort of taking lessons from what happened this year and I considering you know global warming and our carbon footprints and all the concerns of expensive field schools and that kind of thing would you consider incorporating more sort of digital or virtual elements to your work moving forward that maybe means you wouldn't go every year is this something that you know that. Yes that's something that you would consider is it would you like to just sort of go back to the annual practice of going to the field. I don't know about Lucy, but I, I definitely missed not being there. And there are so many things you can't totally replicate actually actually being there and making judgments on the ground and I mean there are there are sites like the mayor that are chairing don't need to necessarily be excavated every year. But there are so many like I don't know that that if we do miss a year something happens. So it's, it's a hard call. I think there are elements that we could do more virtually I like the idea. There's very much of a more hybrid possibility for conferences for meet for meetings are professional meetings and things like that. I think that that creates a level of access that was never possible before because people couldn't get there. So I think that's super important for dissemination. But I, nothing will ever replace actually being there in the dirt. That's my, that's my take on it. What I think we've realized, Natalia and I as we've is that in terms of doing the actual archaeological work, we probably could do every other year because like there was just so much data that we, and it sounds like you have the same experience came of just like there was so much data that we had that I don't think we ever would have fully processed had we actually gone back last summer because it was like okay well the context wasn't perfect. So we should just wait until we have a better context right to do like isotope analysis of shells or whatever. So there, I think we realized how much just get the amount of data that we had from one season was really overwhelming and was truly enough to spend two years working on. But I do think like, although I have been able to keep in touch with a lot of community members. There are also a lot of communities that don't have cell phone access or don't have regular cell phone access and so I don't think that like I think it would make sense to go, you know just for a community meeting. That's me like or Natalia go right. But, so, so not bring a whole team. Right. But I don't think you can really replicate that virtually, at least in the area that I that I work in. But yeah, maybe someday. Well, this is all super informative. And it's really, really interesting to hear about your, your experiences and sort of how you sort of adjusted things and how you might consider adjusting things moving forward. And we're at time now so I'd like to thank you so much for participating in this some special event today and we look forward to hearing what happens in the coming seasons with your research. Absolutely. Thank you so much for asking us to participate.