 All right, so I think we're ready to call the order so this is the September 9th meeting of the Mobular Planning Commission. We'll call the order and firstly to approve the agenda motion. It's deemed approved. Okay, so comments from the chair. My comments are that Mike had some emergency hanging to do and he's not here so we don't have staff. Another update is that the maps that we marked up last time were accidentally recycled so we're gonna have to restart that. Lots of fun news. They were messy anyway so I'm not I'm not sweating it. I did keep notes so we're gonna just recreate that tonight when we get to it. That's great. Yeah and so we have a different dynamic this time because Stephanie and John are here and then Barb's not here so we had put off voting on something because it was sort of a split decisive or you know a divisive thing. That might not be the case now so we might actually build up to finish our boundary tonight. As a reminder it's gonna be the preliminary boundary. We'll get that in a second. Okay so that's all my comments really. The other thing I guess I would have to say is that that yeah we should plan to we're getting back into the city plan starting next time and we're going to try to focus on that almost exclusively. So this is going to be the last meeting that's sort of like tying up halluciners from other things. Next thing on the agenda is the general business. We don't have any members from the public here so there's no one to make any comments. Then the next on our agenda is to consider the minutes from August 26th so if everyone will take a look at those. Wait a second. Sure. Okay. Those in favor of approving the minutes? Say aye. Aye. Opposed? Okay. Minutes approved. Moving on. Continue the discussion of the boundary for the design review district. I'm going to pull up my notes last time. So in terms of the process when we're done with the draft it goes up to City Council for that review or what's the... They need to have some of the meetings on it? For the boundary? Yeah. We're going to have our own. This is just a preliminary thing to put out there to propose and then hold some kind of hearing. Probably one of these meetings I would imagine. We'll just be a hearing that's dedicated to this. Get input and then we'll send it to City Council. So our whole purpose right now is just a starting place for the public to let us know what they think. I've talked to a few people around town just as this has come up and it seems like there might be support with what we've done so far here. Because we're not drastically changing anything so far. So to catch everyone up there, we have this map that's the zoning and design control districts. We don't have this on camera do we? On the table. Okay. So we'll keep it right there. And then I'll remind everyone of where we were last time. Okay. So where we're at right now, and these were all kind of tentatively voted on last time but there's nothing official, is we decided to use as the basis the current design review boundary, which is the dark black on this map. We decided that we wanted to add all the parts of the designated downtown that are not included currently, which is something that we have to do anyway. And that's on Berry Street, just a small piece of Berry Street and I think that might be all. Oh, there's a little around Miles Court also. So those are required to be in our center. Those are required. Right. We could leave them out but we'd have to pull them out which we probably don't want to. Right. And there were other reasons we were looking at it too. I mean we had the full discussion and I don't remember all the details but I mean it seemed to make sense given the context of the neighborhoods in these places anyway. Right. Like for instance. It's completing those two districts that are almost entirely in. Is it just like those two pieces? It's finishing that one and then also adding a parcel from 7-3. So it's going up. Do you want a marker? This is final. Well, when we vote, I think we should mark it up. It's a sharpie. Should we start with a pencil? I don't have a pencil but we could do that. So that's the first thing that we decided to add back. The only other thing we decided to add was the rest of 7-4. So there's a strip that's currently left out of 7-4. And the idea, for one thing, this is mixed use. This is, you know, we expect commercial development here and we think that's appropriate for design review. That was a lot of discussion last time. It's just about how commercial, like sometimes it's likely to have commercial development. We think it makes sense for design review. So this is just a, during our zoning, you know, process. During the zoning process. Mike identified these neighborhoods as being kind of, you know, connected holes. So it makes sense to follow those for that reason. Okay, so the stuff that we decided to take out, though, from the current boundary, is the parcels from 9-4 on East Main Street that are sticking out. So 9-4 is the yellow. And so there's about four parcels there that are part of a different neighborhood. They kind of go up Main Street away from the middle school. We thought that that wasn't necessary to keep in. And then one parcel from 8-3 to St. Paul. That's near the elementary school. The point of those little things were to try to match the design review to a zoning district. Which makes perfect sense. Which we're not perfectly doing. We're taking out that little green spot there. This little green spot here, so it's one parcel. And, you know, it was identified to be part of the 8-3 neighborhood. But currently, it's the only, at least the only one on that street right there that's in design review. Another one was all parts of 11-7 Northfield Street. Oh, the blue. It's the blue of Northfield. Okay. So again, to conform with... That's just one parcel. Yeah, this was identified as its only neighborhood. So since most of it is not in design review, let's take out that part that is. And I think we had some unanswered questions about the green chances of number. Yeah, what that was. That's true. And I did not actually keep that down as a note, but... I think we probably decided it was no idea. What? I think we decided maybe it was no big deal, but we were confused about it. Yeah, and I think again with the whole neighborhood idea, I think that is something... Yeah, that looks like a... I mean, there's a row of houses here, but that's the most part of that parcel. That's sort of a weird addition. Yeah, these things evolve over time. Well, the reason why some of these conflict with the neighborhoods is because this boundary existed before my creative neighborhoods. Oh, yeah. That's why. And probably before the better parcel maps were created as well. But the neighborhoods were... I mean, I wasn't part of that process. That was part of... were you there when they did that? Just the very end of it. Just the very end of it. It was probably a 15-year process. I mean, that feels like a really... it makes sense to match those, because that was a much more intentional process that we actually know what was going on. So I feel good about that. Right. And then the places where we kind of break that rule. So as far as... we discussed some of these things. We're, for instance, part of eight, two, eight, three neighborhoods. We decided to keep in tentatively last time. Because we understand this is a bit of a gateway coming down into Montpelier from that direction. So it does make some sense that this is going to be something that's viewed more and it makes more sense for design review. So even though it's kind of breaking up those neighborhoods, at least that part of those neighborhoods makes sense because they're on the main street there. Because it's main street. And here as well is that sort of similar logic around the... We punted on the college. Yeah, that's going to be what we're tackling right now after we get caught up. But it's similar logic from the river side on Berry Street. Yeah. Where this is seen from different perspectives coming into Montpelier. But this side of the street. So is this the orange is all the 7-1? Is that all the college? This area around the college and Sabans. Part of Sabans, the tiny part of Sabans beginning of it. It's currently in... We punted on this. We couldn't figure... We couldn't decide whether to remove this entirely or to keep it in or do something with it. Because we can't actually control the college anyway. Correct. Does somebody agree? Wide lines. There we go. That was the understanding. Yeah, not cans like the State Houses. That's officially a can. Right. Part of the discussion we had regarding that piece includes that big 18-acre lot that is sort of up for development. Right. That was sort of the question. That could be developed for this. Yeah. There's a lot of questions there. So there's one more thing that could you caught up on in this. We also decided to remove part of 9-6. It's on the route 2, is it? This little piece of the yellow. We're going to move the boundary back over to match the neighborhood there. And that's where we are. We discussed a lot of different possibilities and we moved up actually not changing the current boundary that much after discussing it for a bit. Did you talk about national life? We did. We talked a lot about national life I mean, people have different reasons. One thing that stood out to me was that the area and the gateway coming in by national life could be subdivided some day. Could have more development. Could have commercial development. Things that people are seeing. So it does make sense that even though it's national life right now, that could change and it could be totally appropriate to have design reviews there. And it's definitely a gateway. Yep. So, of course, nothing's off the table for our discussion right now but the thing that we need to tackle is definitely the college and that parcel what we want to do with it. So with that I'm going to turn it over to everyone. So should we look at some of the smaller things first and just mark where we know we're all good with? And then, does that make sense? Process wise. I also have different colored markers if that would be helpful. Randomly. For a meeting I was facilitating. We could have one color for like new added and one color for removed. Sure. I think anything more than that and flirting with disaster. We do have colored markers. So I'm assuming that the folks here last time are still happy with what was decided last time. Two of you happy with what I just went through where we're at? It sounds like include anything in the downtown district. Basically cut out little residential parts that were part of others owning districts with a couple Couple exceptions. We didn't talk about the other this other side but it doesn't totally match but I don't think we did we didn't talk about that right? Yes, this is the capital. And then further off is the blue That's all Yeah, the yellow and the purple. Oh, that's capital complex and then over there that's all still capital complex. Is this all state owned buildings? Well a lot of them are. A lot of this is state owned. This is in the woods behind the state house. Oh yeah. So I guess it's just at the corner of Bailey and across the street. Yeah, so that part of terrace up there I think is all residential. I think so too. I think this is, but I don't think this is mostly office buildings. Like old residential buildings but now office buildings, right? Everything on Baldwin. Oh right, you're right. This is Redstone right here. This is Redstone right here. Hmm. They are have visibility. Yeah. I think if you're looking at the state house those aren't like that. Yeah. Okay. What color would you like? What'll show up? Red is removal. Green is addition. Maybe green is not bright enough. Blue. We have, okay. Come on. Pink. Are you going to be the artist? You can decide. No, I was going to let you do it. It makes sense. We're moving red and green. Okay. Let's get the elephant in the room out of the way here. Let's talk about the VCFA. Right. This is a couple of houses. My house is right there. See what I included. This is a couple of residential houses that are next to the college. I think there was some discussion on that when the boundary came up last time. Why those three houses are in there. In the 9-1 yellow. 7-1. Oh, yeah, 9-1 yellow. There's also a little part of 7-1 that's like the purple. Yeah, that little guy and then there's a little bit of the purple stuck in on both sides. Sorry, I'll go down there too. What's that sign? Actually, that's currently college property, I think, but they're selling it. Or is that this corner one? Maybe it's that corner one. I mean, any of them could be sold. I'm in favor of looking at the approach very long-term and saying. Yeah, I mean, to me, VCFA could close to be a bummer. Absolutely. This square is very strange to me because it's not utilized or viewed, but maybe I'm totally wrong on that. Is this a separate square? Well, just that square of, you know, there is that, you know, Noble Hall historic building. But the green, yeah. The green, it just doesn't... Oh, it's used all the time by all the neighborhood? Yeah. Oh, really? But it's used more like for city residents as opposed to like visitors, right? Oh, okay. And sometimes the college will set up a volleyball net in the summer and then leave it and we'll just go up and play volleyball sometimes. Oh, okay. It's a nice community asset, I would say. And do we have any... did the design review or historic collaboration commission make any recommendations? No. Total plan. Yeah. Through the regs themselves, the regs that we passed back on to them include the Western Gateway, right? Yes. And there was the Western Gateway and River. Because we had talked about removing Western Gateway last time and then it came up, they went, well, it's in the regs that we're talking about. So clearly they anticipated there's going to be a Western Gateway and design review. Because originally we were planning to line it up to the state registered district. And it seems like having that on here would be helpful. The state register, is that the same with the national? No. That was the only... We looked at it. It's much larger. Or is it this one? We need to get an answer yet on whether we're asking. You should be including all those things. I don't want to ask in case they say that. Oh, this is the national register. Is it this one? I think the boundary is the same. Yeah, so I think it's the red one. That one's just showing what buildings do. Yes, it is the red one. So, I mean, I think when we had the discussion last meeting, kind of the starting point was what's in place now is a good starting point because it's defensible for a lot of different reasons. That boundary that we're looking at right now tracks a lot closer to the downtown district than the designated downtown district than the historic district. I think that was part of the starting point. What do you mean it cracks closer to the designated downtown? Tracks closer. The VCFA parcel tracks closer? I'm talking about the entire time review boundary. It tends to track a little... because you can kind of see the historic district on that other map but the historic district has a lot of areas that's just not included. Includes a lot of residential areas that the current design review doesn't and we just didn't see a compelling reason to lump those in. Yeah. So, it frankly becomes a question of what's the utility of expanding the design review district from what the current footprint. It might be helpful to look at the edges as to why you're including something or not if it's in the registered district. And that is one reason why, thanks, because I was struggling to remember it, but one reason why we cut these parcels out from 9-4 is because they're not. So, we were balancing the maps off of each other when we were looking through it last time. And that map is also a reason why we had a good look at National Life and Berry Street. We had discussions of all of the areas that were left out of that map. So, included, Pompat, the downtown sounds like leaving part of National Life in has been what folks are in favor of. Yeah. Yeah, I mean... The other one's just how I looked at this is these proposed rules sort of have a two tiered system. It's an existing building within the design review district. That's sort of, we're all I guess I wouldn't say bonerous, but the more detailed requirements are for design review as opposed to new construction. The new construction sort of guidelines are less stringent, I guess. They just sort of outline the broad principles that are available. They're not going to get into the whole windows and doors. It's the whole make it historic but don't make it historic. Exactly. So, there's different reasons to have different areas in the design review district. National Life, like the Western Gateway, it's a pretty different analysis as to what I mean versus the design review and downtown area. And I think the same applies to the college parcel. If we agree that the bulk of that is not ever going to be really disturbed by the design review because we give the college a broad latitude and sort of comes down to, well, what's left is that 18 acre parcel of the college own that might be developed and we want an overview to have some oversight of the new construction. Did you talk about the main street at all? That should be continued up. Which part? Between the green and downtown. Yeah, the connection. We didn't talk about expanding. That would be a pretty large expansion and I think that as overall we were not thinking of going there. But it is also kind of part of this discussion that we put off because it makes, in my mind, it makes more sense to have a connector if you're actually the college that's included in the new design review district. If the college isn't included then I think it's using State Street. That's what you meant, right? I'm stating that menu. Right, State Street. Yeah, it makes less sense. That's it, that's all I got for that. I guess the other thing I would add too is you know, if we agree that these new regs are more prescriptive once you're in the designated downtown area with existing structures I think that that's an argument for reducing the footprint of the design review district as much as possible. Because while I think they start the preservation board you know, they sort of pitch themselves as we're a resource and that's fine anybody can use them it becomes a different animal when they're required to go to design review I mean anybody can use those resources if they want to ensure that their properties are historically consistent with the area but I feel pretty strongly that these proposed regs sort of lack of assessment with any of the work that's involved I feel like we need to balance what's in these proposed regs and recognize you know, at some point owners of properties within the downtown district or the design review board they're going to have to make difficult choices about whether to put money into changes to their property and defer those costs because they're just simply can't afford windows, doors or whatever DRB requires of them so I'm fairly sensitive to that and again if any property owner wants to go and use the city resources to determine you know, what they should do to make sure it's consistent with the historic nature of the neighborhood so what are our thoughts about the college? the section the parcel that's off down to Barry Street the big one that's for sale what would be I'm just I would benefit from hearing a discussion about why that parcel should be left in because it's holding it's got the only section on the riverside out that way that we that we are including and I just you know, regardless of who it's owned by I'm just not sure it seems weird I agree with that I think for continuity that if we if we think it's important to keep this in then it should be extended as part of Barry Street not as part of the college I agree, so what about that property and keeping the college in and then tidying up the edges in the zoning hang that in a sense and there's not too much historic preservation concern out here because we're talking new development right the general design review standards though that would apply there is the concern there and I think we in the discussion about the property being developed and the zoning boundary changes the neighbors back there would probably enjoy having some extra review of what's going on but it just doesn't seem super fair we also talked about that last time about how you there's a lot of turmoil is probably just wrong of a word but there's a little bit of yeah, there's a little bit of disagreement with these neighborhoods and things that go on in this area and we currently have a lot of parcels that are not subject to design review right next to those that would be and it seems like a sort of unfair imbalanced situation with these neighborhoods that are actually quite similar to each other we put another way people on Sabin Street have more power over people what goes on behind them then then those parcels have over Sabin Street but again I think that there's it's not an apples to apples comparison the design review guidelines that would be subject to the new development would be subject to would be different from the requirements the existing structures here would be subject to I mean it's yeah, I get that so the question sort of just becomes are we comfortable with subjecting the new development in that area to design review under the new construction guidelines I mean I don't hate the idea of moving like moving all of Riverside out that way including it all and then leaving in that parcel but as it stands to me to leave an undeveloped parcel in here I don't understand that I mean I'm not I'm not one who's sympathetic to design review expanding the design review in general but that seems really I just yeah well I think it's a pretty visible coming in from that direction that whole chunk of land is fairly visible across the river from there's probably it's all equally visible exactly yeah so my concern is that we've got one parcel that is subject to design review in that area whereas everything is visible so it seems strange that we would do the one and not the rest yeah I mean I'd rather extend it down Berry Street and take that parcel out then I mean that the whole college well well I probably am in favor of taking the whole college parcel out but I think especially the undeveloped land part of it I don't that just doesn't make any sense to me that we're putting an undeveloped parcel of land into design review other than we want extra scrutiny of extra any development and to me our zoning regulation should be covering that I don't know yeah we do have it's not like we're saying this will not undergo any review we still want to say plan condition we use subdivision regulations subject to and all of savings pastors other than that chunk is out is out so it seems odd I would take it out too are people more in favor of taking it out and leaving it that or taking it out but in finding a way to keep Berry Street in how much interest is there seems like the designated downtown provides a nice yeah cut off at Granite Street okay and would we cut off at the zone or the parcel what up here yeah I have thought that the zoning was the idea I guess I follow everything but you're thinking the parcel yeah whatever makes no sense there's not that many examples of a parcel that's split into several zoning I don't know how that happened it's kind of weird that's what Mike was saying when we were the developer were you there at that meeting yeah we asked why are they zoning butters well we actually proposed something different and then someone came in and I moved it again let's just go with the parcel do you think the parcel yeah he's saying leave the so there would be part of 7-1 zoning neighborhood that would not be in the design review up here what portion are you looking at removing do you see the boundary for the parcel he's talking about using that boundary that's the design review boundary and then towards the college so this part in this entire parcel out including the part of 7-1 I feel like if we're going to do that we might as well move the whole thing because as Mike says we get the college brought latitude I have design review authority it could change for me it's about the resource and whether or not we think design review is appropriate because it's a resource that stands out yeah I would probably keep it in for that too that wasn't me like I wasn't trying to sell it that was that's how I feel about it and this is all really steep slope and flood plain it's not leave it in it doesn't really matter but it feels like the parcel line is just cleaner so do we take mini votes on each little decision or we all just say yeah good and then move on? I mean if we have a general consensus I think it's sufficient just to do the whole thing at once so it sounds we're kind of straw-pulling it so is everyone okay with the parcel line boundary but keeping the college in otherwise is anyone else in favor of taking the college out besides me? yeah it feels like we're playing clues sometimes right I'm just throwing it out there I think not but I'm just checking you two said that you walk it in yeah I'm definitely open to I guess I don't I mean open to cleaning up the line with the zoning oh the purple and the yellow but that doesn't make sense if you know the area a little better which section? these two? we keep the college in those three corners we're just talking about this right now we switched topics we were talking about that so for good with that I don't think Stephanie was against making those changes no I'm not against that I'm just saying this change taking out that piece great using this boundary and then how do people feel about cleaning up to conform with the neighborhoods on the other side I feel good about that and this is just like a couple of residential houses residential houses too but these feel more in keeping with this and not these don't whereas this is just a cliff that's down in the woods those look like they could be part of the college all the ones lining this one so I would be comfortable taking this out and this out and this out adding the little corner and adding that so I think that's part of that parcel pretty sure the college owns that land which one? this random corner I don't think there's a house there there's yes it looks like there's one house at the end of Summit I think that's this house that's this parcel I thought though like at the very end or that is like this one house that's just at the end there do you access it from that street from Summit can I just repose that we agree to just make the boundary consistent with the neighborhood boundaries so just add that little corner whatever the neighborhood boundaries whatever we have to do to make it consistent with the neighborhood boundaries looking at it from here seems like it should have been in the 9-1 neighborhood at the start what are you looking at we're looking at this orange parcel parcel lines we can't see that house from anywhere so it's not really part of 7-1 it's really more part of 9-1 it's a house it looks like a house I guess we should leave it out I would leave it out we can't see it from anywhere you don't need to regulate that anyone can see it okay okay so is everybody okay with leaving leaving leaving that parcel as is but changing the yellow and purple parts okay okay anything else you mentioned connecting East State street so what did we decide on the larger we decided that we were going to use the parcel boundary on the east side of the 7-1 to reduce the boundary there and then to remove the part of 10-2 that's currently in design review and the part of 9-1 but the part of 7-1 that's currently excluded from design review we're going to leave excluded should we mark those get the marker just really just not want to be the artist okay yeah I can start marking up what we talked about last time or we can continue the discussion though well let's just add the designated downtown to start because that's we seem to be all on board with that and I don't remember which piece is specific that was but if it's designated downtown and it matches the zoning district I'm on board do we know why just out of curiosity this other side of fairy street is still we don't have to get back into it I don't think we didn't decide on why it's left out we decided to leave it out we didn't have any folks to put it back in my guess is you can't see it from across the river it's not as visible from across the river I think that's what kind of our theory was it splits fairy street but so does the current Disney downtown so you can kind of see the backs of that side of the street from the river those are all mostly residential I guess mostly yeah it's weird that it wouldn't be it's weird that one's side wasn't really then 7-4 was the other this one everyone okay with adding that slice back in it's grassed it over right, it's the older one it's a derby drive is that what it was it is, is that the rest of the restaurant I like to think of it as like what parks and wrecks like the pit that was just undeveloped for 15 years that's our the pit you should put a park in there actually not the worst idea so minus the main street parcel they weren't okay that's not even there either the one parcel in St. Paul still yes it's not in the designated downtown that's where the line is it's not in the designated downtown and it's in a different zoning neighborhood than the others around it that are included, those are the reasons okay so taking out all parts of 11-7 everyone okay with that taking it out, yeah this does feel like some sort of strange game it's like a cooperative board game we reveal the killer fan oh we lost again we lost main street how can we lose the roundabout part of 9-6 okay so that's that which is one of the most peculiar things in this paradigm what about this commercial paradigm yeah I was just looking at that too that's all the gas stations there's like one house worried about I mean I'm not trying to be physician well it's not just that stuff though it's the regular design review if we think that's like a prominent it's less what it is it could be I guess I'm going to guess there's always going to be gas stations there from Porch Farm would have thoughts on that from Porch Farm would have thoughts if there's there's any development where you want to take a closer look at how it looks a prominent area of gas stations I'd be in favor of expanding it to that also to make it consistent with the entire neighborhood which I think is Porch Farm like what happens at school street that we stop caring the other gas stations the Dunkin' Donuts what can do is do as it wants there are a couple of houses in there there's a new house that just got that's further down I think that's further down that's it but I think I think that's a house there's a house in between the gas stations two of them mixed in there they'd have to be contributing for the store preservation to apply to them there's I imagine they're not contributing they're out of the district actually right they're definitely out of the district I mean thinking about what that space might be in the future it makes a lot of sense as a commercial space even though there are a couple of houses there and it's definitely what you see when you come in let's do a poll who's in favor of including all of 4-2 I'm still trying to I'm not sure if I am I can just see an argument for it before I widespread a difference I'm against it you are? we're one against it we're not felt strong that's what's going to move the needle on this one okay is the lineup Northfield Street clean does it just handle those properties that you kind of access from Northfield well down in the not 4-2 zone like is that that line is pretty arbitrary it just like blows right up the school street up school street so that makes sense as a school app by the way school street that was a good idea yeah so everything on Northfield is in everything that touches Northfield is in I still don't know what this is I feel like that's a separate parcel I would be comfortable yeah there's no reason to have that I would take that out everyone in favor of taking that out oh that's hell somebody tries to develop right up against the they're going to put it on they're going to put it off they're going to put it off on wind turbines they have an engineering plan they have to be reviewed anyway given this look that's right that's Steve oh that's super Steve I mean even these houses are pretty steep okay this little we talked about that does it follow does it follow the property property line right now because there's a lot of weirdness I think that is a different parcel but currently it's just our old design review it's just a weird boundary right there so can we just make it match what about the pink that's out though if you make it this way towards the neighborhood yeah right there it's like this solar but yeah I don't know why that's that line is up here because I used to the community garden because I used to be part of this community garden that's right here right the garden is out yeah currently the community garden is out is like right here yeah so you want to match it to the neighborhood garden I wouldn't take care of it here do we want that this is national life property too right it's all one parcel and we think including all of that we just do the entire western neighborhood it's just simple and consistent doing this kind of splits this top side of northfield street where we're design review on one side and not on the other yeah but I think that's the community garden and the solar and the solar comes up pretty close to the road yeah it's like a road so the community gardens look here and then the road comes neck through it so it's like kind of it's mostly behind the community garden you can see that from the highway if you're going north you can see it western gaily from the other direction yeah I would just in favor of making a match the pink and so here and here and taking the blue out taking out 11-7 this isn't good oh right leaving out 11-7 taking that out so this way taking that out so basically if I'm here just matching the pink it doesn't quite match on this end it's not in my map we're going there like over here there's something else that doesn't match or maybe it's because it's not natural I thought this is I think it's this I mean this zone I think it might be behind the I thought I was remembering that like CCB is up there it's not on that map so did they because it cuts off oh okay yeah I mean I would be in favor of taking that CCB out too I think I would too I would too that's different than the historic sorry tangent maybe I want to write that somewhere do you want to remember that it's just the CCB it's just that parcel can I steal this parcel again CCB parcel is running and designing for some probably historical reason is it not a historic building I mean whatever CCB building most of these decisions were preservation reasons they were for just design review and having some more control over commercially building and then residential area well that little orange is Turtle Island and the college but it just stands out okay it's 7-8 majority say that I was thinking up here since it's all okay going back to the national life boundary is can I get a show of hands of who's in support of changing the boundary as Stephanie described that's a great one I made it more confusing my brain's not working with dealing with this purple and blue together this is an ad we're moving ahead an ad yeah this is an ad I don't think we have rules for how cleanly clean the garden space that's great do now it's there were let's see like 36 or so 20 by 20 foot blocks most pathways shed composted it's pretty big you only see it bigger on Northfield and you can see it from the highway so by the way when we do the city plan and there's the future development map I'm like this is I anticipate that we are going to plan development out this way it's not currently the case but I feel like that's going to be connected with design review once we get there and we're thinking about it yeah that still feels like a weird area to me because it's a lot of random commercial things and definitely an entrance to molecular this part yeah so are you saying that it I could see an argument that it should be it it feels like we need a clearer vision and a plan for what's going to happen there otherwise I'd be worried the decisions about design piecemeal and arbitrary are not heard of is that a what you just said an argument for design review not yet until we like articulate that's some kind of that's a good point so if through the city plan we decide in our future land use map that we have thoughts about what that should be and then maybe it would make sense you may say that needs design review but if we're planning for that to be developed in a certain way can we even figure out what this is what's going on there there's a big chunk of trees behind the state house behind the state house so that's the reason for that and then that's here but there's this it's outside of the downtown does it need downtown and frankly it's a bizarre relative to that's great I know Baldwin is no it's all all this is residential and what's behind these are these are mostly houses apartments yeah yeah what we were saying before which I think is right is that part of the reason this would have been included is that certain views of the state house include those houses I'm just going to blow myself down on that street and this are all in the Bailey and the register district as well yeah that's a social area I mean going to Bailey those are offices they're yeah that seems kind of appropriate is this in the public zone yeah with that sort of big Victorian that and then there's a circle the Chapin Drive or Chapin Road Richard's in the other side and that sort of horseshoes up there's some properties up there but that's like for instance the horseshoe feels a little weird yeah but for instance like that is in but right next to here this is out I don't understand it it doesn't make any sense to me yeah I wonder if these from the state house were part of the these of the state house just not touch it with more stronger logic around I wouldn't even anticipate that to come up with a public either I've never heard of anyone over there having issue with something else okay so are we done? are we there? at our starting point what's this? oh never mind look at that the parcel that's sold Redstone I was just thinking about that and really I don't know if you have much view of it from over here you can't see it with no visibility I can't see it even though it's a big parcel unless they could cut five acres you look at the lid out around it it's like oddly terraced yeah I like my dog over there all the time you can see it's haunted in general as far as housing development downtown oh yeah so if we took out Cliff Street or city council took out Cliff Street what was the logic for leaving in just this little that's part of the downtown that's the only piece that's part of the downtown city council itself recently removed this neighborhood from design review because of the you know and I think that homeowner but we we had talked last time about potentially putting it back in but it's residential it doesn't really fit what we've been looking at as our main priorities right now which is more of a focus on commercial and making things line up with neighborhoods and it just doesn't seem like a great candidate to include these are neighborhoods but they also received start tax credits so it's a good example which they couldn't have done pieces of that neighborhood looks like it's part of 2-1 this purple one is that undeveloped rocky just that rocky hill this is that the playground I thought we talked about it last time and someone point out how it's oh that's the so if you come down my office used to be here there's a wall right there if you come from this way there's a trail up it's part of the park but it's a weird you wouldn't know it's very strange very strange you wouldn't know that it was there unless you happen to know that there was a trail off of this street but yeah I wondered about this light green and then these parts of 2-1 that are out that's the only part that still looks kind of not matched I just want to make sure this there's the downtown splits the street but I think we might have talked about that last time we thought it was good that it included both sides of the street so we went this part of Elm that's not in the downtown but it's going to I think if we look at areas and we think that downtown feel like the downtown should be expanded there this is this is across the street from me where I live this is part of a type of gateway if you're coming into town from Elm Street this is about the area where comparing your house to the houses across the street there's no reason why one side should be in Elm other than to recognize the light that's fundamentally unfair it's some apartments there's no mandalos to change this flag every day it's in the house and there's apartments and there's a church and there's some like Victorians that are converted into offices which is similar to what's across the street do those split parcels or no does the design review line split parcels or how do you access those purple parcels that are out I mean I think it's just including the ones on the street front here and these are not which that as a logic makes sense although yeah I wonder if that's a different is that a parcel that shouldn't be in then it's not on the street here and it's shaded blue there's a green one that's in if it's in the downtown it is it's just a weird corner and I think as far as a minorly updating it so that it makes sense exercise this makes sense and I think it's a these are defensible changes I think they are, I think we've had a delivery reason for everything there's been nothing arbitrary about the suggestions in the neighborhood we might hear from is the Newberry Street and really we had no choice is that all the condoms? right so we have a good I think that's the only addition of the other side oh that's still kind of right yeah you're right it's in the designated downtown so unless we change the designated downtown seems unlikely to see a lot of new development or activity in here recently okay so ready for a vote? sure second second was that a first? I think we'll need a motion for the record Kirby's style is just a lot more informal can I get a share? can I either do a nod or yell okay you need to throw out the potential motion sure as a preliminary design control districts to submit to the public to submit the map as reflected by our changes here unless you want me to detail them I don't think it's important to detail them I don't I think someone has to do first I shouldn't he was clarifying the motion on the table first and second is that what I heard? sure sure John with a first Erin with a second all in favor of the motion say aye sure sure okay unanimously we vote on this map before the public this just occurred to me as we were voting was there a specific piece that Barb might have disagreed on? you said that you made it sound like maybe it would be different last time I was wondering if there was something specific that was with Stan I think Barb was Barb went along with things last time I don't know if she's just because she didn't vocally post I mean she was in favor of it so I want to speak for her in that regard I think what I was anticipating was that Barb was going to want this parcel the VCFA land and I think we ended up putting it off because that was going to be quite the discussion we're going to have time for that we didn't remove it entirely so I don't hate it and we're just throwing this out there for comment it's not done right okay so got that done you have to post things for people to be able to yeah I'll be passing this on to Mike and get the ball rolling on getting a hearing set up to take a look at this for the public do you not recycle on that did you if I remember that it takes me back a while save we're on the track for although if we're going off the picture that's going to be no just as like backup for in case this gets recycled with that fucking voice I really don't know I don't think so there was backup photo as a government employee so if I could tell you I'm a creature of habit I was in the business of recycling Mike expressly said this will not be recycled whatever that is just ran it that's what I'm saying but then you wrap it up and the person just sees the world recycle on it do you expect me to just try to save that in the conference and I think she want to just race okay so with that done we're on to item 7 on the agenda which is to recommend the city council the appointment of a new representative to the CVRPC think if you're interested you should just go right ahead we were talking last time about your level of interest I brought that up but I'm over committed in life right now if you want to go for it is anybody else interested are you interested it's pretty much like that I'm not happy to give it a go it's interesting but yeah it's a couple hour meeting that's not a terrible commitment but when you have a lot of other things the first one is tomorrow though isn't it didn't you say the first one was tomorrow but I have a commitment tomorrow afternoon but going forward you can't be on it so you want it so I can go tomorrow I would have to go anyway because that's why we're on it so I'll let Mike know okay we'll do a vote I'll let Mike know then then they'll put you on the schedule for the city council to make the appointment and then after that you'll be the rep which will not be by tomorrow obviously I'll go tomorrow I've already let them know that there'll be someone new soon probably won't go with you to the October meeting that's fine what time is it tomorrow it's from 6.30 to 8.30 and there's pizza I should have I should have started there was never pizza no one told me it's pretty new there was never pizza when they moved the time from 7 to 6.30 they said they needed to have pizza do they have good topics there's a mix I could come to this like second half of it you could but don't I don't think you don't care so that's fine send me off and I'll go else Mike could possibly go too so if you ever can't go to meeting you let Mike know he could possibly go so you should call Mike tonight tell him I can't go tomorrow there's a new representative if I'm being totally honest there's times I miss meeting and didn't tell Mike because I didn't want to bother Mike but I also didn't want to go I was very adult with me very adult with me a long time ago I realized that these things, whatever you say on tapes probably not going to haunt you Nixon said that okay so let's have a vote do we have a nomination be a representative to the CDR PC second I think I got it less sleep all in favor aye all opposed so we now have suggested to the city council that we'd like to have Marcella appointed and I'll be resigning that your public service trajectory is like sky high you just made your second meeting here and you've already taken it out so does the guy who became vice chair welcome mom it was way longer than that alright alright so with that we were going to work on the city plan update but really we need to coordinate better I think and with Mike before the next meeting and just go with gusto can I just really quickly since we're all here and we're sort of on the subject I just kind of want to where are we city plan I just remember there was sort of the branding statement we had reviewed a list of priorities from the other committees around the city and I just can't remember I think I missed a couple meetings I think there's a lot of confusion about that and I think that's why we should start from start from a place with Mike the next time of starting with that like where are we going from here we need like a plan and a schedule and so have you guys been reviewing actual documents yet is there anything written down on that it's been really it's been a morpheus it's been informed I saw the branding statement and was that for this city plan it was past one but we may hang on to it well I think it did and he was just using the model first to think about and drafting a new one maybe I'll send this around again but I had created a template for so the idea was like a lot of that committees or subcommittees would put forward some recommendations for their topic areas like energy housing, transportation etc but before we asked them for feedback we wanted to give them some clear guidance and a template to fill out so that people gave us information that would be useful and that it would be consistent across the the different committees and I started with Barb gave me she's also in the energy committee so she gave me some of the work that they had done so I took it converted it into format that I thought could be useful we've talked about it conceptually maybe even looked at it on a screen here but I feel like we haven't really it would be good to have people they get to it and try doing it and I think going through that might help us understand what we're working towards or not working towards but it does seem like someone needs to do this and we need to know when and how can't just like hope that the city plan happens so I'm going to work with Mike before the next meeting to try to organize some of these thoughts and get a plan going what I'm thinking of is including the agenda for next time a discussion of the vision statement that was one starting place a discussion of the template that John was talking about and applying that to the energy plan shoot for that right I already put I don't know what I started with a few of those so I think the best way is to walk through a subject matter area and the city and the energy plan is the most fleshed out example we have I think does that sound okay okay so we'll do that and I think that sounds like that could take up some time another thought I have but I'm not sure if it's worthwhile is to put down as an item a review of the notes from when we had the city-wide committee meeting as a refresher was that committee meeting so we held an event where we invited all of the city-related planning planning related committees to the pavilion and everyone presented about three goals that they thought should be the most important for their area for the city plan so we have that and it's a really great resource to have in our back pocket to kind of help guide us and focus us as we go but our problem isn't so much related to that right now taking the next steps that we need to take to get moving on actual work on the city plan and what do you think of the concept of it being something where we can move things into like a basket of things that we are ready to go and you know this is a policy we're good on and this is a strategy we want to move forward with so that we're not like holding everything up for however long like this will never be perfect but that we are actually do you want to have work baskets for like discreet? do you want to have work baskets for discreet for subsections or something? so instead of thinking of it by you know if we have things coming in by topic area that's fine and things are in like you know draft pretty good place and so if we move if we start trying to move things into a ready to go and actually moving towards implementing things we can treat this more again as like a working document not as this huge thing that feels overwhelming that we have to get everything right to vote on but that we can move forward with things that we have consensus on and start adopting some of those policies and strategies maybe sending them to city council is that a major shift from before? would that be a major shift that would city council be expecting that? I think it's a major shift on how planning is done gets at one of the biggest problems we've had where we keep adding more topic areas and make it more more complex because our world is complex but we're still just up to years without more capacity it sounds good to me I just don't know if there's any sort of procedural or even like statutory limitations on doing that I just don't know I like the idea a lot I think when we get to a place where we have where everything's moving and in a to-go place we'll have to have like an official here's the one that we're shipping up to the state to check off but I think it's it all sounds great and it's to me it feels like we set up a process for here's a planning process that you can do within your committees to figure out what it is that you want to be doing and then just go do it instead of saying let's wait until we get it all in order so we're just setting the process and the framework and then saying here committee go run with this process and framework and it'll end up looking kind of like this and then you can just start doing things that happens anyway right so at the end they're all in the same sort of format at least so we can say yeah that's our plan even though it's going to keep the evolved language makes it a better plan and hopefully I mean if this works and maybe this is hopefully optimistic about it it's probably the best way to be if we move towards that but we continue that and every year there's like an update on the plan where we shift things in and out of our strategies and it becomes less of this once a decade so okay I'll feel a lot better once we go through one and see it happen so then things click so we'll put that on the agenda to go through you'll be available to help lead so not next meeting okay first meeting act over but I will send things out between now and then I think that discussion can still happen between now and then and going through that going through the template meet necessarily there I think since you're like the main mind behind it I would feel better if you were there we could try to organize it where the next meeting we go through some other top city plan related things and we can save that discussion then for the one after so anything with that I don't feel equipped to like try to facilitate that discussion right now until I seem more I feel like we could spend a lot of time next meeting just figuring out milestones and rough timelines and just taking stock of where we are and where we need to go I don't think we need to get close to even implementing it I think getting a better idea of what what's done already from Mike really getting a solid update from him where things are would be helpful because we're all a little confused that's 90 minutes right there okay so update next time and the vision statement the alternative is we just pick a weekend and we bang it out and whatever we're done we were talking about that last year you were the only other person yeah it's like whatever we're doing coming to my house is like running in my basement we'll have some football games in the background no no there will be no football in the background whatever you want to watch I'm watching any of your planning every day no distractions I don't know I'm hung up a little bit on wanting to hear from others before we jump into any extensive planning well we've already heard through the one event that we had yeah so we have that currently that's all we have I feel like as we jump into any particular area we're going to want to do some back and forth with the other, with the related committees as we do it that's just the way I'm conceiving of it if we want to go this other direction where we just do a whole lot of like a surge of work and then go out and seek that feedback which maybe is a different approach that you guys are more interested in we're going to go along with that get an update from Mike we'll start with that let's just get an update from Mike and I think that'll help sort of situate us I'm really at the point you know I'm at the class like I don't know what I don't know what phase of this project so yeah I have a lot of ideas but I want them to be temperate with other committees and things I'm going to get to look at city council priorities as well and see what's on their list that specifically relates to our planning efforts that's a great point in addition to the committee comments I think they have a strategy session every year don't they yeah fundamentally what they adopt as priorities and strategies are what a city plan should be so like this disconnect we have maybe they should just do it they have to adopt it yeah so I think there is a little bit of a disconnect between what we're thinking what city council is doing I think there's also a bit of a disconnect with the dozens of volunteer groups and boards and things in the city I think ideally in this process like a lot of our work would actually be really about shepherding all of the stuff that's going on out there and sort of bringing it in there's a lot of smart people good ideas and some of them are already I know parks commission is already trying to do their own planning because they want to figure out what their committee should be doing and so how does that I think these are doing fits into a larger structure and so that's why I like coming from a place of wanting to have those conversations before us planning anything how many committees in a meeting at least I was going to say 15 or 20 I think 22 or something I think there's more than 20 subcommittees within committees I don't think there are subcommittees I think with them are done then there's more than one transportation right, well let me say like but that's also not counting there's like team bridges and he's like non-government so chapter wise for the plan they would have to there are some merging I was just sort of wondering what if it's realistic to think if we could bring in a couple of committees for a meeting and just sort of sort of a face to face with them for 20 minutes, half an hour but if there's 20 committees it takes a year to do I think Mike's plan is already to work with them, he has like then from that spreadsheet he had different meetings where he would be working with them and then they would come to us at the end and show us their work but I think we've missed some of the setup of what that process should look like because I don't really know what he's doing with the committees and if we want them to use this format which I don't maybe that's what he's using maybe okay fingers crossed I'm just yeah yep so we'll plan to get the update from Mike next time go from there we'll figure this out as we go move to adjourn okay, non-debatable so second it we adjourned