 Hi everyone, welcome back to our podcast from the Kamasutra to 2020 and it's all very exciting today because today Anrita and I joined by Lucy Rohit. Lucy is a sex coach and a sexologist working with women and people with vulvas in particular and today we are going to be addressing something that Lucy actually works on quite a lot which is a really popular question as well for us Lucy. It's been coming in sort of in torrents and that is why have I lost my libido and how can I get it back. That's what Anrita and I would like to talk to you about. Anrita do you want to kick the conversation off for us. But I feel like that's the best question like you know the question around when people feel they've lost their libido or their libido has changed and that really worries people. Can you share with us like what are some of the reasons that you know people do and then we can come to what should they do if they've lost their libido but what are some of the reasons. There are so many reasons I remember I had a teacher saying that libido is a bit like the canary in the coal mine. It's once that starts to go it's a very good signifier of other things. So there are really common medical reasons first of all but I think are really important to address. The most common ones are certain medications so taking antidepressant medication. Unfortunately it's an absolute life saver insanity saver but one of the very common side effects is that it can really dampen your libido and sexual response. Also certain forms of hormonal contraception I can't say which ones because everybody's body responds differently but that's another really common side effect that certain hormonal contraception can really hit your libido. There are other medications that can also impact your libido and general any kind of health concerns or conditions so if you're experiencing chronic pain, chronic fatigue, ongoing stuff that's inevitably going to hit your libido. So those are the medical things underneath first of all. There are loads of other influences for example you've just had a baby and your body is still recovering. You know medically they say it takes six weeks, no it takes a lot longer than six weeks for your body to recover after having a baby. Not to mention the fact you're exhausted. Also going through the menopause and the perimenopause if any listeners can relate to that the incredible roller coaster that going through the menopause is it's not just about changing your hormones it's far bigger than that. Also impacts of stress and that's a whole other podcast in itself because especially in the past few years we've all been under even more stress than we were under already. And thinking particularly around particular stresses that women experience that men don't always fully understand. It's known as the mental load where all of them looking after your family thinking about everybody else's well-being in many cultures women are socialised to emotionally care take everybody else. So no wonder you're exhausted and then by the end of the day maybe you have nothing left. So these are just some of the reasons your libido can disappear and maybe people listening can already resonate with those. I just want to say that I totally agree with everything that you said but we also discovered recently that there are a few cases and I have to bring this in just because I think it's hilarious. There are a few cases where antidepressants can actually have a slightly different effect and it causes something and you call the yawning orgasm where you yawn and it gives you an orgasm. And that happens as a side effect of certain antidepressants and I thought you know when I found that out I was just so excited. I remember I'm with an IGG on so much about this so yeah you know there's always a silver lining somewhere. There's always hope at the end of that particular tunnel. The canary can find its way back. Find a different way to orgasm than what you're used to. Absolutely just imagine you yawn and I feel happy. But Amita I know that you have quite a lot that we both say around stress and I think it would be really great if you can add that to this particular point. Well what I was thinking also when you were talking about the antidepressants is that it's such an oxymoron right? So sex is something that gives us pleasure and unfortunately we miss that pleasure by taking an antidepressant. And once again just to caveat it's not true for everyone but it is one of the reassigned effects that happens. So just like don't say no to an antidepressant because that's what you think is going to happen or it's not necessary that it might happen in your case. And then there are other things that the doctors if it is a side effect then people prescribe other things to help you with it. So I just wanted to put that in but the emotional like the libido changing because what's happening to us emotionally is a really important consideration to make. Like if we don't feel up to it, if we are overwhelmed, if we are stressed, if we are feeling depressed, if we are sitting and crying. What we're really not thinking is or I'm feeling aroused. Some people might but what I'm just trying to say is that it is something that if you're not in the mood of it, if you're not in that space, then the libido, it's okay to give your libido some space. You know if you are sad, if you're upset, if you're feeling overwhelmed, if you're feeling stressed then sometimes that emotional connect is not happening. We've always spoken about how sex is about the mind, body, emotions all connected together and if you've even once not on the same page then things are not going to happen. So I also think that sometimes rather than taking on another pressure of saying, oh I need to fix my libido, I have to fix my libido. It's also okay to say not in the space of mood right now, it'll come back when I'm feeling I have some time, I have some space and you know more energy. So to give yourself space is also an okay thing and it's all right. So that's something to keep in mind. So a few years ago if you all remember this was one of the buzzwords in a lot of the glossy magazines was that have sex, it's great stress relief. You know it is all about like yeah it's wonderful for relieving stress, go and have sex and you know it'll make you feel so much better. We always say that sexual organs are intelligent organs, they understand everything that goes on in the mind of the body and they manifest all the emotions down there. I know that all of us would agree that for a lot of men, not all men because I've discovered recently with several guys who are very stressed that they're finding it hard as well to actually hold their erections. They can't go through with it as well. But going back to that idea, it must have come from somewhere that you know when you're stressed, sex is great stress relief. Is it possible to use it as stress relief? Is that a way of re-jigging your brain to think slightly differently so that you can go in there and help yourself? Well the thing is about anything, whether it's sex, whether it's health, whether it's anything, what we as humans we make meaning out of things because that's what humans have always done. And often what we are telling ourselves about something is going to impact how we feel about it. It may probably sound like I'm stating the obvious there but it has to be said again. And especially thinking about different gender roles, especially the way that men and women are often socialized differently about sex and sexuality. Often for a lot of women it's very much sex is something I have to give. It is something that I have to offer. Rather than sex is something for me to also feel just as good as my partner. And so I absolutely agree sex can be a really great stress reliever. It's a way of, you can also think about it like working out things using your body rather than using your mind or your words. You know if you have a difficulty with each other let's take it to the bedroom that our bodies do the talking rather than constantly going around in circles. But this is why I really believe for a lot of women and people socialize as women it's let's start to reframe and work on my own sexuality as something that I give to myself and I experience for myself. Rather than so that I will then have enjoy sex with my partner. There's a subtle difference here and it's when you can, you know this is when we talk about masturbation and self-pleasuring but not just that. Even just thinking about who am I as a sexual being or how can I turn myself on, what turns me on, what makes me feel yummy and go from there so that you can think of sex and sexuality as something nourishing and life-giving. So you just as much as it is as it is for your partner and then it's something that can be a great stress reliever rather than oh god I can't. Or oh god I have to do it for this person again yeah and the pressure the duty it's like oh my god it's my duty and I have to perform it. That's not sexy. No. Duty sex I don't think is duty sex doesn't sound very sexy to me. No it doesn't does it. But we should use that as a term I like that. And what do you think duty sex? Duty sex it does sound interesting. But not sound interesting but it's an interesting word. And I also think what we're talking here about like you know it's a stress relief or not. Part of it is that if you are if it is something enjoyable for you you know if it is not something as Lucy saying it's not your duty or you have to do it or something. It is something that is like changes your mood right picks you up. So if you have just been in a shitty space and then doing something pleasurable or enjoyable will change. So it will you know reduce the stress like if you've been overwhelmed about something and you get few moments of pleasure. That is going to make you feel good like that could be through self masturbation or having sex with somebody and otherwise. So it does change I think but like Lucy saying if it is something that you say feeling like you have to do out of obligation. Then it doesn't it just adds to another stress in your life rather than changing things for you. So tell me something if I was to come to you and say my libido is really high. My partner has no libido or the other way around. I think that always that comes up quite a lot in relationships where one person's libido is a lot higher. And we always recommend that you know your understanding towards your partner you talk this through there's got to be a certain amount of communication. Communication is a wonderful word till you actually get down to doing it because how many people will actually find the time to discuss something like this. Most of the time it's either that the other person will put up with it a couple of times the third time they're like oh for God's sakes you know move on get on with it. Or the other person the one with the Lord libido will try a little bit and the receiving partner is like yeah but wasn't good enough because you know I thought there would be more to it. So there's a huge amount of dissatisfaction that comes up post-coitus you know after sex where there is a difference in libido. Is there something that we can do to change the story to change the description or even to just change how we communicate so that we can make that more balanced. Something that I feel is really important and has been really helpful with my clients is understanding the different kinds of desire in general. So one of the books I always recommend is Come As You Are by Emily Nagoski and I sometimes say it's like the Bible for women but not quite. And also not just women everyone I think and it's understanding in general that humans I mean this was one particular description that we have two kinds of desire. There's spontaneous desire and responsive desire and for a lot of the clients because I work with women a lot of the clients that I work with they felt those is disconnecting this frustration where it was often. I just don't want I'm not interested in sex but as soon as my partner starts to initiate I get really into it and like yeah that's normal that's called responsive desire. Can you own that and really understand and accept that you may be at this baseline of not feeling much but you will know that when your partner makes the right moves touches you in that way kisses you in that way. Suddenly oh okay I'm ready to go and own that and understand that's the way that you work and then maybe take that a step further by okay how can I start to turn myself on knowing that this is just the way that I work. Just and it's just as valid as my partner spontaneously having a horn all the time. And if you can really embrace that about yourself that you need a little bit of extra help to get in the mood just like millions of other people and then you're proactive about okay how can I turn myself on maybe reading more erotica or writing more erotica doing things that make me feel sexy. I'm being proactive about creating all the right conditions. And it's again not about trying to make yourself be in the mood so that you will have sex. It's giving yourself that extra helping hands it sounds like an innuendo you're giving yourself that helping hand. So that it you know that it's not just about you having a low libido. I'm curious what you do. I was as in one thing I would like to say because I work with men as well so you know and I know. A lot of times when we talk about libido we assume that it's the women with the low libido but let's give it to the women sometimes it's the men who don't are not interested in sex and women want to have lots of sex and we can at least believe that and. And it is true there are times that women might want more sex than men. So once I just wondered you know when we talk about two partners. It could be anybody who wants less libido and what's really important to also consider is that is it circumstantial is it something happening now. Lucy started by saying is you know you just had a baby you do not feel that sexual it's very different. Is it something that is a phase or is that been something in your relationship that's always been an issue. So I think it's really important to understand circumstantial versus a phase versus something that's there because if it is a phase. Then it's it's important that we work on it and once things stabilize that you change it and come back to equilibrium. If it is something that has been there for a long time and that's what it is. I'm sorry see mother word communication does come up and you do have to land up doing it because I think it leaves less room for assumptions assumptions around. They're no longer attracted to me they don't like me. You know I'm not sexy enough I'm not attractive enough I'm not sexual enough I'm not good enough and all those words will creep into your relationship. So communicating saying I'm just feeling low I don't know what's happening I don't feel like it. So at least the person knows it's not them but that's where you are in the phase and time of life. So I think that's an important just at least letting your partner know that that's what's happening so misunderstandings don't come into the middle. And I and then I think the mismatch of libido is I also with what Lucy was saying that it can be different desires as well like someone might like sex a certain way and the libido might be active in one phase or way of doing it. And they might be disinterested in completely something else you know so they might want some certain type of sex but not the other kind and and so also those are things that we can look at. When we're talking about mismatch of libido but unfortunately communication is the key. And I think games help like I think when you are trying to make an effort. If you bring in games you know or bring in activities that you do so I would like this like if you can find ways of expressing what you want and the other person feels like the next day they can ask for what they want. So it feels like an equal OK one day one's asking one day one's asking so it doesn't feel like one is always giving and one is always taking. So bringing in games and activities can also change that equation. So I think what I'd like to add to this is it's funny but talking about communication of course it is the most important thing and probably the least used in reality. So you know this whole idea of changing your mind or changing the story because we all have stories in our brain. We tell ourselves stories and we kind of go along with what we're saying in here and then the body follows. Now that comes with of course has this thing about you know like when you decide to have sex you have to change the space that your mind is in. OK so you come back from a day of work you're tired you may not be in the mood for it or you're thinking about other things. How do you suddenly go from that to saying oh yeah OK now I'm going to have sex and I'm suddenly going to forget about all the stresses of the day. And I'm going to be like oh wow this amazing person and do all of these things and doesn't quite happen and talking about communication. The cancer says that how you actually start sex your first bit of foreplay and the most important part of foreplay is that you sit down together and you tell each other stories. So you tell each other are the very naughty stories which get you giggling and forgetting about the stresses of the day. Or you give you share gossip with each other because when you share gossip you forget everything else that's going on in the world. You forget time and space you're like oh my God did that really happen. And it says that it changes your physical energy tremendously. And I think that's really good advice and I always say to people it's easy it's easily done as well. And before I get to the next thing now you've got to get all the techniques just gossip with your partner. Every now and I think that because like I said it has naughty stories and the idea of the naughty story is something that's going to make you goss. And forget about reasonable thought for a while. Forget about this idea of oh yeah but you know this is how we're thinking and something that's so bizarre and out of the way. That's highly recommended. The other thing is that you know to approach the idea of intimacy as something beautiful and as something that you want. And practically speaking how do you make that happen. So they said you know so we have something Lucy in ancient India called the shrink or the ornamentation. So you know today when you think about having sex with your partner. You go into the bathroom you wash your makeup off and you get into an old night even you turn the lights off and you know it's like OK now I'm ready. They would actually get dressed for it. So you would get into you put on your coat you put on your earrings you know you perfume yourself. There are all the delicate little details that you go into and by the time you finished you have raised that desire inside you to say I'm entering a special space. And we do that for a party because even if you know if like around the valley the valley is coming up and around now every night there's going to be a party and you're going to be exhausted but you will get dressed every single night. With everything because you know that the end of that dressing up is going to be totally joyous. It's going to be pleasurable to go out there we meet friends you're going to laugh you're going to do stuff. We never ever think about love making in that way do we that it's going to be something so wonderful to wait for. I was I was wondering what Lucy suggested if those are the ornaments of modern day women reading erotica writing erotica if those are ornaments to get around like that's what Lucy and I wonder if that's the new model rather than the traditional we're still preparing to have sex but by doing those things that Lucy suggested like that you read you write and think and also you know you wear something you wear lingerie or otherwise. But you know it's just a thought I was just thinking that when you were sharing about getting ready do we get ready in different ways today before having sex. There's a very famous relationship therapist Esther Perrell Esther Perrell I think that's how she pronounces it and there was a quote that she said all play begins at the end of the last orgasm. She may have said that I could be making it up I'm sure she says something about that and this idea that you know all play is not just about his kiss touch touch. Okay do this lick lick it's about the teasing throughout the day it's texting it's the glances it's the gentle pat on the bum. You know it's the cuddling it's so that life is about foreplay rather than as he said okay I've had a really stressful day and my kids are driving me nuts and my mum something going on with my parents and I'm doing this and all of this. Ah you come through the door oh right I suddenly have to be in the mood for sex. No let's let's create an environment for it and I love this idea that we do we need to transition we cannot. It takes a while to physically emotionally mentally transition and also this idea that taking sex and eroticism outside of something I do in the bedroom as something that is part of my my daily life. Not when I say that I don't mean having sex everywhere unless you really want to but this idea of my eroticism being part of who I am so I'm going to wear the nice underwear or you know if I'm me or my partner is doing the washing up I sneak up behind and give him a little squeeze on the bum if that feels good. Or little kissing or ways in which you can celebrate your sexuality and eroticism that maybe nobody else can see but you feel it that's that internal feeling that I am a sexual being whether I am having sex or not. And it's a completely different way of seeing it. And I really know and I believe that has a huge impact on our libido and our desire. We so agree with that. We've said this we reiterated it many many times. And we find that one of the things they've done with that is often said is that let's change the description of sex. You know it doesn't have to be like you said you kiss then you have four play then you have sex then you turn over and you go to sleep. It's the banter it's the giggling it's the teasing. It's the naughty stories and the gossip. You know it's where it sort of just what changes your mental energy and you can go for it. The other thing that I tend to always say is that each time you have sex it's different so it's not going to be exactly the same each time. Most people get very stuck on this little box that they have to take. Okay. Gotta have sex must have that orgasm. Oh no I didn't have that orgasm what should I do? Would you talk to us a little bit about I mean like I said to me I always say that you know it depends on where you are. Sometimes lovemaking can be very passionate and very exciting. Sometimes it can be very mellow. Sometimes you're just tired you want to lie back and have this really pleasurable thing happen to you. It's like yeah I'm happy with this. Some days you just want to be really meditative and chilled out about it. So do you want to talk to us a little bit Lucy about sort of acknowledging and owning your orgasm not just your eroticism but also your pleasure in whichever way it comes. I feel that that's so much to do with your libido. Like you said you'd be always say how she leaves your bed this time will define how quickly she comes back to it the next time. So you know how it ends this time will define how excitedly the next person that you come back to making love with that person the next time. So yeah. I'm gonna piggybacking on that. We have put sex even the word sex brings up a lot we put it in a very very tiny box. And it's this idea that we can have a completely different experience even with the same partner in the same bed doing the same things or not. And I liken it to like different flavours of ice cream because I love ice cream I love all dessert. But it's this idea of what if you could what if you could fully embrace that your orgasms will feel different. Everything will feel different depending on your mood depending on umpteen many other variables. Could you embrace that because I believe from my experience that often one of the biggest libido kind of locks per se is our idea of what it should look like. What sex should look like and how it should feel like. And if it doesn't feel anything like this very small thing or then it doesn't count and I failed and you go into that headspace of well it's all failed. What if today I'm feeling quite tired so I just want to do really chilled out mellow sex. In fact I'm just going to lie back and be a pillow prince vessel prince and let you finish it's going to be great. And other times you know what I'm feeling this really strong chemistry between us and I want us to really work out in the bedroom. What if you can embrace there are so many flavours if you are somebody for example who enjoys things like yoga and meditation. You will know that each time you practice you feel differently. What if sex could be another form of meditation where every time you're going to feel differently your partner will feel differently. Can you embrace that and also every orgasm probably feels different depending on how you feel emotionally depending on what stimulated depending on how relaxed or how tense you are. Could you adopt this mindset of erotic abundance where all of it counts depending on many different things. And how would that change how you feel about your libido. Maybe you don't have as a low libido as you thought you did you just don't have the desire to do this particular thing. But actually you realize you have the desire to do all the other stuff instead. It changes everything. Yeah it's just literally about that one little thing about giving yourself permission to feel the way that you do in whichever way makes you happy. And you know we tend to sort of tick boxes like we're going for an exam. Yeah and I think to that like the idea of libido then because if you have a fixed idea and it seems like a momentous task like oh you know I have to be able to do this. I have to be able to do it. Then the desire to do it becomes less because you think oh my God it's too much work. But if you allow for saying today I just want to be in a receiving mode and it's OK if I don't orgasm but I still want to feel the pleasure. Then you'd be more open to it. So we also have to reflect on what is impacting our libido. Like what are we saying to ourselves when you know there is a thought of sex or an invitation for sex or whatever. And we feel disinterested. We should reflect and analyze how come what what is it that it's impacting and we don't want to engage in this. And it could be as Lucy said in the beginning like are we angry with our partner today. Are we resentful with our partner today. But what is the reason to better understand our libido as well. So understanding our libido is an important thing as well. You know I'm one of those people who always believe that vocabulary is really important. So when you have words to describe how you feel it just makes it easier because it empowers you to be able to describe it. But I also find that there are words that have come into our vocabulary which actually don't mean very much to us when we start using them. And one of the words that's become very popular is I'm asexual. People don't really give it enough thought to figure out whether they're actually asexual. I think it's just become one of those things that OK I'm not feeling turned on. Day two I'm still not feeling turned on. Day three I'm still not feeling turned on. I must be asexual. And you end up taking a huge set of steps in some direction or the other. You know you started off by saying something at the beginning Lucy which is that how do you do something to make yourself feel yummy. And that's what it's about. Sex, intimacy. It should be about joy. It should be about pleasure. It should be about feeling good on the inside. There are no ticks to be done. It's not that OK if I'm feeling good on the inside it's because I've been penetrated and thrust upon for like 10 minutes or whatever. That isn't really what makes somebody feel yummy but not necessarily. What is it that makes you feel yummy and do you think that if you had to kind of bring it all down to one piece of advice. Is that what you would say to people to say OK just work on your yumminess or is there something else to do that. Because I think that's a great idea. I mean I like the idea of working on my yumminess. I have certain trigger points you know when I put on a sorry the moment I put on my blouse something inside me goes. It makes me feel so sexy. It makes me feel good. You know there are just little triggers that make me feel good. Is that something that you would recommend. I mean is that is that your starting point. Yeah you pretty much put the words in my mouth. Well not just that. It's this idea of you know even whatever your your sexual identity or your orientation whether you're on the asexuality spectrum or not. You have things that you find pleasurable. And again let's deconstruct this idea of what pleasure is. Often people who identify asexual or demisexual realize actually I'm still very sensory and very sensual. I love the feeling of hot water on my skin. I may not be sexual but I am hypersensual. I love sensation. And I'm like then follow that. Follow the breadcrumbs. One of the things that I love this idea from Barbara Carellis who wrote the book Urban Tantra and it's thinking about your top turn-ons for life. And a turn-on for life does not have to be sexual at all. It's what makes you feel yummy. What makes you feel whatever it is. And then literally follow those breadcrumbs. Do more of it. Make your life a life of feeling yummy feeling pleasurable. You know especially igniting your senses, your touch, taste, sound, smell. You don't have to have any sexual desire but decide that you know what I'm going to go all out. I'm going to max it out. I'm going to do everything within my power to make myself feel turned on and yummy. And then you find that maybe your perspective shifts and you realize all the ways in which you have been denying yourself. And it doesn't mean that you are doing this so that you have sexual desire. You're doing this to reframe how you feel about pleasure and sensation in general. So follow where the pleasure is, whether it's sexual or not. And maybe deconstruct and redefine what sexual means to you. I think that's just so amazing. You're so right. You know we do have little tiny boxes for everything and certain words just they have connotations and we go with those all the time. We're not ready to think outside the box but yeah feel sensual. Feel the senses you know. Understand what bit of music really kind of gets every bit of your nerve endings pinging and jumping off the walls. Amita any last bits of advice from you? Yeah I think I was thinking when you and Lucy were talking but for me and for me it would be understanding the libido or lack of. Because really giving yourself permission because if there is something amiss in the relationship. If there is something amiss in your life emotionally, medically, physically. Then I think listening to that voice and not forcing yourself to do something that you don't feel like. If you desire it then you know you will go get help to work on it. But if it is not right in the moment it's also okay to say it's not right in the moment and not to feel guilty about saying no. So really understand it because if that is truly the voice from inside saying I don't feel like it right now that's okay. If you are like I want to do this but I'm unable to do this then go get help and you can get enough help to change that that unable to do it is a problem. Not wanting to do it is not a problem you know and that's the things to go and get it and you can get help and change that. I completely agree and it's maybe getting clearer with yourself. Is it a want to or is it an unable to? And if it's not a want to being really honest with yourself about that and honouring that maybe it's an internal boundary for you. Maybe something has come up where it's like actually I can't because I don't want to there is too much going on in my life right now. And maybe the most sexually empowering thing you can do for yourself in your relationship or marriage or partnership is to honour that want or that not want. And I believe it needs to start there. I also wanted to end by something there's a really good quote. I think by Cindy Darnell she wrote a really good book called Sex When You Don't Feel Like It which pretty much does what it says on the tin. And she said that libido is a very unreliable marker for good sex. Waiting for your libido to happen is a very unreliable way of having good sex. And it's kind of also deconstructing the difference between libido and desire. Why don't we cultivate desire more rather than libido which is very difficult to quantify anyway. Visual libido is always going to come and go because that's life. Let's become literate, sexually literate and work on our desire so that we can weather the different libido storms because life will always be throwing lemons at you. And let's build some sexual resilience. I like that. I like that. So actually work on desire, forget the word libido, forget that there is this internal autopilot button that you're supposed to press and everything is going to get all fireworks and dazzle. But actually work on desire and wanting to. I like that very much. What's the book called again? It's called Sex When You Don't Feel Like It and it's by a therapist called Cindy Darnell. C-Y-N-D-I and then D-A-R-N-E-L-L. I think everybody out there listening, maybe this is where you need to actually start going to look up that book and take a look at it and see whether that can help you. But yeah, I've actually really liked the advice that both our experts have given us today. I think just this idea of understanding what makes you feel good about yourself, makes you feel yummy, understanding what senses of yours are crying out or waking up that particular day because every day there's a different sense. I mean, we have this idea that every day as the moon moans in its phases, your erogenous zones move around your body. And the Kamsutra gives you that list of, you know, today on the full moon, it's here on the head. Oh, did you not have you not heard this before, Lucy? No. This is actually, okay, so you need a lot. You have a lot of catching up to do because there's this, there's a whole chapter in the Kamsutra about how as the moon moans in its phases, the erogenous zones move around the body. And this happens for men and women both. And it's fabulous because the idea is that every day there's a different part of you that is the point of your energy and that's what you stimulate. So one day it's the head, then it's the eyes, then it's the cheeks, then it's the neck, then it's the breasts and so on. It goes around the body. It's fantastic. And I think more than the fact that it may or may not actually be happening in real life because we're all different. But the fact that we think it would, and the fact that somebody will take the trouble to experiment with that part or explore that part of the body just because you think that that's where the desire is, that's half the battle one. Sexual eye massage. Sexual eye massage. The sexual eye massage is actually, it says that you're supposed to kiss the person gently on the eyelid, gently and consistently on the eyelids. That's the, that's how you do the eye massage. Oh yeah. There's this idea that your whole body gets to be an original zone, not just what we think of the typical original zones, boobs, genitals, hips, everything. Yeah, everything, every part of you. So I think what I'd like to do is end with the two things that I'm certainly taking away from this. One is, figure out what makes you feel yummy, what really turns you on. Understand what are the different things that you can go to. Like Anitha said, the modern day ornamentation, you know, the different things that are going to make you feel really good about yourself. It's not, as Lucy said, about feeling sexual. It's about feeling sensual. So go and explore your senses because that's the place to start. If you found that useful, please do like, comment, subscribe. And as always, our email addresses and our contacts will be in the description below. You can get in touch with Lucy, Anitha or myself whenever you want to. And we will be over here to answer your questions. Stay safe, stay well, stay happy.