 Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE. Covering DockerCon 18. Brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of DockerCon 2018. We are in San Francisco at Moscone West. It's a spectacular day in San Francisco. It's a day to play hooky, frankly, or play hooky and watch theCUBE. I'm Lisa Martin with John Troyer, and we're excited to welcome to theCUBE Abby Fuller, developer relations from AWS. Abby, great to have you here. So you were a speaker at DockerCon 2018. Tell us a little bit about that and your role as in developer relations. So I work in developer relations for AWS. So I used to be a DevOps engineer and now I go around talking to customers and developers and other software engineers and teaching them how to use things with AWS. Or this morning it was teaching everyone how to build effective Docker images. So I read in your bio on the DockerCon website of speakers that you're a container fan. We know you're a music fan, but you're also a container fan. What is it about that technology that you just go, oh, this is awesome. I can't wait to teach people about the benefits of this? So I switched over to containers as a customer before I started working at AWS. And the biggest reasons for me was, the first one was portability so that I could do everything that I needed to run my application all in one place. So I think a big problem for a lot of developers is the whole, well, it works on my machine. So being able to package everything together so that it worked on my machine, but also on a staging environment, a QA environment and on your machine, that was the biggest thing for me and that it removed some of the spaghetti code that came before and it just made everything, it was all packaged nicely. I could deploy it a little bit more easily, a little bit faster and I eliminated a lot of the, why doesn't it work now when it worked before? Abby, one of the paradoxes of where we are in 2018 AWS has been around for a decade, but yet here at the show, about half the folks raised their hand onto the question, this is your first DockerCon, are you just getting started with Docker containers? So as an evangelist, your evangelist developer relations, you're the frontline of talking with people at the grassroots. So can you talk a little bit about some of the different personas you encounter? Are you meeting people who are just getting started with their container journey or are you spending a lot of time kind of finessing the details about API and APIs and changes and things like that at AWS? I think one of my favorite part about talking to AWS customers is that you get the whole range, right? So you get people that are just starting and they want to know, how do I build a container? How do I run it? How do I start from zero? And then you get the people that have been doing it for maybe a year or maybe two years and they're looking for advanced black belt tips. And then you get the other group which is not everyone is building a green field application. So then you get a really interesting subset where they're trying to move over from the whole monolith to microservices story. So they're trying to containerize and kind of adopt agile containerized approaches as they're moving over. And I think the best part is being able to talk to the whole range because it's never boring. Where's some of the big barriers that you see for organizations that know that maybe on the very, very beginning of the journey or maybe before it, when you're talking with customers or developers, what are some of the things that you're hearing them say, ah, but what about these? How can you help me eliminate these challenges? I think two bit too big ones for me. The first one is the organizational changes that go around the infrastructure change. So it doesn't always work to just containerize what you already had and then call the day. So a lot of people are decomposing, they're going with microservices at the same time as they're going with containers. And I think wrapping your head around that kind of decomposition is the first kind of big challenge. And I think that we really just have to educate better. So show people, so here's some ways that you can break your service up, here's some things to think about when you're figuring out service boundaries. And I think the other one is that they often want a little bit of help when they're getting started. So either educational resources or how can AWS manage part of their infrastructure while they focus on the container part. So it's really interesting and it runs a whole game in. Abby, you in developer relations, I love the trend, the community-oriented trend, right? Of peers helping peers, you're out there, you're wearing a Bruce Springsteen shirt right now, you made a wu-tang joke in your talk today, which is something that one did not do a few years back. When you had to kind of dress up and you were usually a man and you were tired. You look very sharp, don't get me wrong. But how do you talk to people? One, what's your day like or week like? And at what point, how many miles do you have this year? Unless that's private. But also, as people come up to you, what do they ask you? Like, are you a role model for folks? Do people come up and say, how can I do this too? Yeah, so, Miles phoned this year, I think like 175,000. Already? Already this year. So, this is a lot of what I do. I talk to all kinds of customers, I do bigger events like this, I do meetups, I do user groups, I go to AWS summits and dev days and builders days and things like that, I meet with customers. So day-to-day changes every day. Obviously, big on Twitter. Spent a lot of time tweeting on planes. It really depends. This is a lot of what I do and I think people, I don't think you can ever really call yourself a role model, right? It's that people, I want to, I love showing people that there's paths into tech that didn't start off with a computer science degree. That there's tons of ways to participate and be part of the tech community because it's a great community. But you're not just a talker, you're a coder too. Yeah, yeah. So every job before this one with the exception of my very first job, which was in sales, I was a DevOps engineer right up until I took the job at AWS and I like to think that I never left. I'm just no longer on call. But I build my own demos, I write my own blog posts, I do all my own slides and workshops, so still super active, just not on call. So it's the best of all the worlds. So you went to Tufts, you didn't major in computer science. You are, I would say a role model. You might not consider yourself one. Well, you can say it, yeah. I can say it exactly, it's PC if I say it. But who were, you know, one of the things that's exciting to have females on the show, and I geek out on this, is we don't have a lot of females in tech. I mean, I think the last stat that I saw recently was less than 25% of technical roles are held by women. What was your career path that we can kind of pivot on that for a second? Because I think that's quite interesting. And what are some of the things that you said, you know what, I don't care. I enjoy this, I want to do this. Because in all circumstances you are a role model. But I'd love to understand some of the things you encountered and maybe some of your advice to those that would be following in your footsteps. Yeah, so I went to school for politics. I, programming was a little bit of a side hobby before that. Mostly of the how can I do this thing, do this thing that it's not supposed to be doing. So I did that, I went to school. I took a computer science class my very last semester in school. I did not know that it was a thing before then. So I guess a little slow on the comp side uptake. And I was like, oh well cool, this is an awesome, this could be an awesome career but I don't know how to get into it. So I was like, okay, I'm going to go to a startup and I'm going to do whatever. So I take a sales job. I did that for maybe nine or 10 months and I started taking on side projects. So how to write email templates and HTML that I could use that directly showed an impact to my sales job. Then the startup as startups do got acquired. And as part of the acquisition I moved my little CRM engineering job to the product team. And then I'm going to be honest, I bothered the CTO a lot. And I learned side projects. I was like, I've learned Python now. What can you have for me? So I basically bothered him a lot until he helped me do some projects and totally old enough now to admit that he was very kind to take a chance on me. And then I worked hard. I did a lot of online classes. I read a lot of books. I read a lot of blogs. I'm a big proponent in learning by doing. So I still learn things the same way. I read about it. I decide that I want to use it. I try it out. And then at the point where I get where I don't quite know what's happening I go back to the documentation. So, and that got me through a couple of DevOps jobs until I got to evangelism. And I think the biggest advice I have for people is it's okay to not know what you want right away which is how I have a politics degree. But you can work at it. And don't be afraid to have mentors and communities and peers that can help you because it's the best way to participate. And it's actually whether you have a comp side job or not it's still the best way to participate. And that you can have, there's so many non-traditional past tech and I think everyone is equally valuable because I think I write better coming from a liberal arts degree than I would have otherwise. So I think every skill that you bring in is valuable. So once you figure out what you want don't be afraid to ask for it. The thing I'm hearing here is persistence and it just reminded me a quick pivot of I hosted theCUBE at Women Transforming Technology just a couple of weeks ago at VMware and they just made a massive investment, 15 million into a lab, a research lab at Stanford to look at the barriers that women in tech are facing. And one of our guests, Pratima Raul Blockman just wrote a book called Nevertheless She Persistent. And I just, it reminded me of you because that's one of the things that I'm hearing from you is just it's that persistence that I think is a really unique thing there. So I, sorry, I just had to take a little side. I'll have to look that up. But actually I saw the title and I have not read it yet, but I have a flight back to New York after this. So I'll have to find that. You've got time, yeah. Over and over again as I talk with folks about IT and tech careers, right? It's that thinking expansively about your job, trying things, being a continuous learner that that is the thing that actually works. So maybe pivoting back to the tech for a sec then. Obviously here, Container Central, DockerCon 2018. Kubernetes actually was a big news this morning at the keynote, a big announcement how Docker EE is going to connect to Amazon EKS among others, kind of being able to manage the Kubernetes clusters up there in the cloud. So, and EKS actually just had its general availability I believe, right, in the last week or so. Yeah, so excited to see EKS and EKS this morning. We're always happy to deepen our partnerships. Yeah, and we've been in preview since re-invent and we announced the general availability of EKS, so Amazon Elastic Container Service for Kubernetes, long acronym. So EKS, we announced the GA last Tuesday. Can you, the interesting thing about AWS is somebody just compared it. I saw a tweet today to an industrial supply store in that it's a huge warehouse full of tools that you can use and that includes containers. So, but for containers the three pieces that are the largest are EKS, ECS, and Fargate. Can you kind of tease those out for us really briefly? Yeah, so envision if you would, a flowchart. So, if you want to run a managed container on AWS, you first you pick your orchestration tool, so EKS or ECS. ECS is the one that we've been working on for quite a few years now, so Elastic Container Service. Once you've chosen your orchestration tool, for ECS you have another set of choices, which is either to run your container as an EC2 mode, which is manage your cluster infrastructure as well, so the underlying EC2 hosts. And Fargate mode, where you only manage everything at the container level and task definition level, so no cluster management. So- And that's all taken care of for you. That's all taken care of for you. So, Fargate I think is less a service in the traditional way that we would say that ECS is a service and more of like an underlying technology. So, that's what enables you to manage everything at just the container level and not at the cluster level. And I think the best way of describing it is actually is a really nice quote floating around that said, when I ask someone for a sandwich, they don't want to know the whole sandwich logistics chain. So, how do I get turkey? How do I get cheese? How do I get mayo on the bread? They just want the sandwich. So, Fargate for I think a lot of people is the sandwich. So, I just want the sandwich. Just give me your container, don't worry about the rest. So, we've already established Abby has a lot of miles already in half a year. So, I'm thinking two things. One, we should travel with her because we're probably going to get free upgrades. And two, you speak with a lot of customers. So, tell us about that customer feedback loop. I think something that I really love about working at Amazon is that so much of our roadmap is driven by customer feedback. So, actually, something that was really cool is that this morning, so ECS announced a demon scheduler. So, run tasks one per host on every host in the cluster. So, for things like metrics, containers, and log containers. And something that is so cool for me is that I asked for that as a customer and I just watched us announce it this morning. So, it's incredible to see every single time that the feedback loop is closed, that people ask for it and then we build it. The same thing with ECS, right? We build, we want you to have a great experience running your infrastructure on AWS, full stop. Can you give us an example of a customer that's really been impactful in terms of that feedback loop? One that really sticks out to you is a great hallmark of what you guys are enabling. Well, I think that all of our customers are impactful in the feedback loop, right? And anyone from a really small startup to a really large enterprise. I think one that was really exciting to me was a very small Israeli startup. And they actually, they went all in on managing no EC2 instances very quickly. They're called DeTree. So, they were my customer speaker at the Tel Aviv Summit and they manage zero EC2 instances. So, they have Fargate, they have Lambda, they manage no infrastructure themselves. And I just think it's so cool to watch people want things and then adopt them so quickly. And the response on Twitter after the demon schedule this morning is like my favorite treat was this is customer feedback done right. And I love seeing how happy people are when they ask for something and they're saying now that you've added that I can delete three Lambda functions because you made it easy. And I love seeing feedback like that. So, I think everyone's impactful but that one stuck out to me as someone that adopted something incredibly quickly and had been so, they're just so happy to have a need solved for them. Well, that's the best validation that you can get is through the voice of the customer. So, to hear that must feel good that not only are we listening but we're doing things right in a way that our customers are feeling how valuable they are to us. Happy customers are the best customers. They definitely are. We learn a lot from the ones that aren't happy and there's a lot of learnings there but hearing that validation is icing on the cake. Always. Last question for you. Sure. With some of the announcements that came out today and as this conference in its fifth year has grown tremendously. When I was walking out of the general session this morning I took a photo because I don't think I've seen a general session room that big in a long time and I was just at Sapphire last week which has 20,000 attendees. I was impressed with how captivated the audience was. So, last question. What are excited to you about some of the things that Docker announced today? So, I think that's interesting. So, I think something that's excited me in general is watching the community itself flourish. So, there's so many, there's Kubernetes, there's say groups and there's user groups and there's the discussion online is always incredibly rich and vibrant and there's so many people that are just so excited for anything. It's all companies building what they're looking for and I love seeing things like the Docker Enterprise edition announced this morning where it's demo is EKS but I just love seeing customers get the choice to do whatever they want. They have all the options out there and that you can see how much more rich and vibrant everything is. From even a couple of years ago there's more people every year, there's more sessions every year, the sessions are bigger every year and I just love that and I love seeing people get so excited and then seeing people that came to your talk two years ago come back and give their own talk. I think it's amazing. Oh, talk about feedback, Luke. That must feel really good. I think it's not a reflection on me, it's a reflection on the community and it's a very supportive community and it's a very excited and curious audience. So, if you see the reception to other people that talk a lot being like oh, we're really happy to have you then the next year you're like, well, I have a story and I want to tell it so I'm going to submit my own session and I think that's the best. Well, Abby, it's been such a pleasure to have you on theCUBE. Thank you for having me, it's been great. Thank you for stopping by and your energy is infectious so you'll have to come back. Any time. We want to thank you for watching theCUBE. I'm Lisa Martin with John Troyer Live from San Francisco at DockerCon 2018. Stick around, we'll be right back after a short break.