 Welcome everyone to this update on what is arguably the most important press freedom case ever. It's the first time that the mightiest government in the world, the United States, is seeking to prosecute a journalist, editor and publisher under the Espionage Act. And it's astonishing that a journalist has been held in arbitrary detention for 11 years now in what the UN rapporteur on torture has termed a slow-motion murder for publishing the truth about war crimes and for humming no one. On the eve of Julian Assange's 50th birthday, he remains in Belmarsh prison while the US case against him is in serious trouble and international protest against his treatment swells. Tonight, we're going to hear from Jennifer Robinson, who has been on his legal team for more than 10 years. Scott Ludlam, former senator in the Australian Parliament, author and commentator and longtime supporter of WikiLeaks and Julian Assange. And Shamira Gamaj from Amnesty Australia. Shamira has championed Amnesty's support for Julian. So we'll hear from each of our speakers for 10 minutes and then I'll kick off the discussion, ask them a few questions and then go to your questions. So whilst you're listening to the speakers, if anything that occurs to you, please write it into the chat. So put your questions there and I'll go to them later. I'd like to start with Jennifer because I think everyone's very, very keen to hear the latest on developments in the legal case. So over to you, Jennifer. Thank you, Mary. And thank you to the Don't Extradite Assange campaign for organising this. Before I start, I want to pay tribute to the people I'm sharing this panel with. First, Mary is our moderator who has been a longtime supporter and advocate on the principled free speech issues that arise in this case dating back to when Julian won the Sydney Peace Prize. So thank you, Mary. Also, with Scott Ludlam, who as a senator for the Greens was the very first person who came out in support of Julian in Parliament and who was my go-to person and contact point in Canberra for many years and really led the advocacy that began the momentum that we're now seeing in Australian Parliament. So I really want to pay tribute to Scott for the work that he's done both in Parliament and outside of it on this issue. And of course, to Shamira at Amnesty Australia, the support of Amnesty International is absolutely essential in recognising that Julian is in my view a political prisoner, but also someone who deserves the support of mainstream human rights organisations like Amnesty and the work that Amnesty Australia is doing is just so important in raising awareness and also bringing more people to the table to talk about this. So I want to thank each of you for your work before I get started. It's hard for me to believe that it's Julian's 50th birthday tomorrow. I spent his 40th birthday party with him in house arrest in the north of England and Norfolk 10 years ago tomorrow and that this person who has won these incredible awards, the Warclear Award for Most Outstanding Contribution to Journalism, the Sydney Peace Prize and those two just here in Australia before we talk about the others around the world, has been under some form of restriction on his liberty since 2010 and since I've known him and certainly since his last milestone birthday. And what that says about our democracy is a conversation that I think we all should be having this week and this weekend. But to give you a little update in terms of where we are now, not just reflecting on how long this has gone on and what it's meant for him personally, you know, I'm sad that we can't celebrate his birthday together this time around. But just to reflect on where we are, so as you all know, we won the extradition hearing. So in January, on the 4th of January this year, the judge in the proceedings chose to discharge Julian, so he should be released and with his family, we won the hearing. And it's only because the United States appealed that decision and refused his bail and opposed our bail application, which was then refused by the judge, that he remains in prison. And I think it's really important to acknowledge that at any point now, the United States could choose to withdraw their appeal and Julian could be released immediately to his family. That's how straightforward and simple the answer is in this case. But in terms of the legal process now, as you know, we won the hearing on the grounds that extraditing him would be oppressive because of his particular mental health issues and his diagnosis of having Asperger's because of the oppressive prison conditions he would face once returned to the United States. But of course, the United States has now appealed that decision. The papers are now before a judge in the High Court of London waiting for their decision on whether the US will be granted permission to appeal. So there isn't an appeal as of right in extradition proceedings. The US government has had to seek permission to appeal. We don't know when that decision will come. It could come anytime now or it could come in months and months in the months ahead. And this is what I think makes it so oppressive and difficult for Julian being remaining in Belmarsh prison, a high security prison where he has very limited access to visitors because of the COVID pandemic, this ongoing waiting game about when we will find out and what's next. Now, what could be next in terms of legal process? If the United States is granted permission to appeal, there will be a further extradition appeal hearing at which we will likely have to cross appeal against a number of the positions that were taken in the magistrate's court's judgment. If they're refused permission, they have the ability to renew that appeal and it would be heard before likely a divisional court, so two to three judges, about whether the decision to refuse them permission was correct. But this process could drag out for a very long time. And in the meantime, Julian remains in prison where he's at risk of contracting COVID. We've got an ongoing COVID pandemic crisis in the United Kingdom. And in a case where he should never have been in prison in the first place. And what we have to remember is that in most extradition cases like this, if we look back at the Laurie Love proceedings, people aren't held in prison pending extradition. The only reason Julian is in prison right now is because of the Trump administration, this outrageous indictment that it has been unanimously condemned by free speech groups and mainstream media organizations the world over. But also because the United States government is continuing to oppose his bail application. So it is an incredibly unjust situation. And as a lawyer, it is unbelievably uncomfortable for someone who believes in the rule of law to be visiting an editor, an award-winning editor and publisher who's been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize, but to have to go into a high security prison through layers upon layers of bureaucracy and security to be searched, to have my papers gone through, to be padded down twice, my fingerprints taken twice before I'm able to sit down with him in a room. And this is a disgrace when we think about our Western liberal democracy. The most recent development that I think everyone is probably most interested in is the revelations that we've heard from an important Icelandic newspaper in the past week about the key witness, the key U.S. witness and source, Sigi Thorasan. So we've learned in the last few weeks, we have been saying this for years, mind you, so this is, but these are important revelations which are backed up through an extensive and in-depth investigative report by award-winning Icelandic journalists, showing that the basis for the second superseding indictment, and importantly, that's the indictment which included hacking allegations which have never previously been made against Julian, that the key source, Mr. Thorasan, lied, lied to the United States and admits that he lied to the United States about the, about his connection to WikiLeaks and the extent of his role with WikiLeaks, that he lied about any kind of participation in hacking, and he's admitted this on the record. Now, of course, this prosecution has always been problematic from a principled free speech point of view, from an evidential point of view, but now we know that one of the key witnesses, the key witness for the second superseding indictment has admitted that he lied and that there is no factual basis upon which to base the second superseding indictment. This is just the latest revelation of a case which has been filled with abuse that should justify the case being thrown out. We had evidence in the extradition proceedings in London from Daniel Ellsberg talking about how the simple revelation that the Nixon administration had broken into his psychiatrist's office was sufficient to have the entire case under the Espionage Act against him thrown out with prejudice, so it could never be brought again, because of the abuse by government officials. In Julian's case, we are looking at a process of over 10 years where the source, Chelsea Manning, and one of the key potential witnesses has herself been subjected to torture, has herself been subjected to arbitrary detention on pain of giving testimony against Julian. We have had unlawful spying on the embassy of not just Julian and his doctors, but of us as his lawyers, myself personally as his lawyer, in our efforts to represent him and defend him against this extradition case, the seizure of his legally privileged materials from the Ecuadorian Embassy, and now we know a source who has absolutely lied to the United States, which is the evidence upon which the second superseding indictment is based. Now, if it was enough in the Nixon administration to have a case thrown out for abuse of process, then surely it's enough in 2021 in democratic societies, and if it's not, then we have to ask real questions about where we are as democratic societies. I just want to speak briefly before I finish about the role of the Australian government or the complete lack of role of the Australian government in this case. We've been asking the Australian government for more than 10 years, I have been going to parliament with the assistance of Scott Ludlam when he was a senator to raise concerns with the Australian government about Julian's position. With the support of the union, the MEAA in Australia, we have repeatedly reached out to the Australian government to current and former prime ministers, foreign ministers, asking them to take the steps that we have been asking them to do for 10 years, which is to ask the United States to drop this case. And yet we still have no confirmation from Maurice Payne that this has been done. I met personally with her office earlier this year and made a number of key demands. The first being after we've won this extradition case, this is now a humanitarian question, he is at risk of suicide, we have a judicial judgment stating as much, it is time for the Australian government to step in and ask for this to be closed down, we have a new administration, we have a new administration who's committed itself to free speech, ask them to close it down. We also ask that the Australian government ask that the US does not oppose our next bail application, so that Julian, at least while the appeal process continues, can be at home with his family with Stella and the children in London while he prepares for this appeal. And there's all kinds of bail conditions that can be imposed to ensure that he's not a flight risk and he's won the case, he wants to be with his family, there's no reason for him to flee. We haven't heard anything back about whether the Australian government has actually done what we've asked them to do and certainly there doesn't seem to be any public record of them asking the Biden administration to stop this and they must because this has gone on too long. So I think that probably takes us to the 10 minutes and I'll leave it for, I'm happy to answer questions. Thank you, Mary. Thank you very much, Jennifer. Just moments ago I had a message exchanged with Stella who said that for the first time in many, many months she and the children were able to visit Julian. She of course had to maintain distance, but he was allowed to touch the children, which is yeah, something, but you know, it's absolutely heartbreaking. Can you imagine having spent the past year not being able to see briefly but not touch your family? It's also it's just the cumulative effect of what's happened to Julian over the last 11 years. Thank you for that. We might go now to Scott who and Scott feel free to comment on anything on the case, but also on how you see the campaign shaping up, particularly given we now have a Deputy Prime Minister who is part of the Assange parliamentary support group. Thanks, Mary. And thanks as well to Jen and Chimera for coming on the line and for giving us that background. And thanks to everybody for joining us. I know that it's a Friday night and there's a thousand other places that we can be, but this is a really important time for us for the campaign and for Julian in particular. So thanks so much for joining us and coming on the line. I'm speaking to you from Ewan country on the south coast of New South Wales on ground that acknowledged the elders. So I first met Julian 10 years ago this year, which would have been about eight months before he took refuge in the embassy, where he successfully sought political asylum because he knew that his life was at risk from precisely the kind of prosecution that eventually landed. He's been under, as Jen noted, he's been under some form of incarceration this entire time. And although the campaign to get him free has gone through several different waves, the one constant has been the calculated hostility dressed up as indifference by mainstream Australian politicians. And the fact that even this consensus has begun to break up and fracture tells us that we might be approaching a tipping point. That's really mainly what I want to speak about tonight, just how much the ground has shifted in our favor for getting Julian out of Belmarsh prison. Between 2010 and 11, thereabouts, Julian and the staff and supporters of WikiLeaks were subjected to the first phases of a very sophisticated campaign of disinformation and distraction. And we know this because some of the key elements of that campaign were leaked to WikiLeaks, who then published them. And although it took a while to get traction, if you roll forward a decade, you realize just how much the original purpose of the organization of WikiLeaks and exactly what it was they published, the meaning of what was published and the importance of the incredible archive of documents has been occluded behind this persistent campaign of disinformation. So if you've heard rumors or stories about Julian Sox or his cat or that he is some kind of pawn of the Russian government, then congratulations, you've been subjected to that disinformation campaign too, as we all have. Which makes it all the more striking, I think, how his arrest and his forceful removal from the embassy in 2019 blew away a lot of those illusions and re-crystallized the global campaign around the reality of the prosecution and what it means. A walkly award when he published, Australian government is letting it happen and the Biden administration is seemingly allowing this headless process to continue. And I think that's reforged the consensus that Julian must be freed because Trump and Bill Barr and Mike Pompeo are gone. A lot of the senior appointees of the Trump administration are gone. And in the US, the Courage Foundation and the DEA campaign have lined up all of the major human rights and press freedom organizations from Amnesty International who are joining us tonight, Human Rights Watch, to the ACLU, to reporters without borders. In the UK, there's a growing movement amongst cross-party MPs that have led a delegation to Belmarsh and are attempting to get at least make contact with Julian and then to get him free. There's action this week in the Italian Parliament, it's breaking out all over. In Australia, we see the same coalition of human rights organizations, including press freedom, groups like Digital Rights Watch, Julian's Union, the MEAA and of course, more recently, the Peekbody for Australian Trade Unions, the ACLU and their Secretary, Sally McManus, the statement that they made in May, really cements and joins that consensus that is emerging that Julian must be freed. Politically, things are shifting quite fast. There's a parliamentary friendship group which Jen and Mary have already mentioned and my experience of those, this is quite a functional one. This is a place where MPs from the crossbench and the major parties can meet on areas of common interest. You close the doors, you don't always take minutes, you leave your political weapons at the door and you work out what it is that you can do for whatever the purpose of that group's establishment was. This is a very functional group. It's quite a deeply chaired. It has membership from all of the major parties, the minor parties, the greens and crossbenchers. This is the kind of group that has met with the ambassador. It sent correspondence directly to the US government. They've been very active, including this week, you've probably seen the video. We are Australian parliamentarians and we're calling on the government of the United States to drop the unprecedented Espionage Act charges against Julian Assange. And we're imploring the British government to release him from prison and send him home. Like politicians in the US and the UK, we are elected to defend our citizens' rights. Photos expect us to hold accountable those who commit wrongdoing, not to punish those who expose it, such as Julian Assange. Citizens expect us to protect journalists and publishers, not to imprison them for their work. Julian Assange is right now being arbitrarily detained in the UK for publishing activity. His treatment violates the Convention against torture and its persecution threatens journalists worldwide. The world's leading human rights and press freedom groups are unequivocally denouncing the charges against him and we join them. Australian citizens want Julian Assange to be free. Indeed, one of the largest petitions in Australia's history with over half a million signatures has been tabled in the Australian parliament calling on the United States to free Assange. The ruling by UK District Judge, Vanessa Barrett, is on January the 4th of this year to deny extradition, provides the opportunity for urgent reconsideration. President Biden, we hear your lawyer. Please drop the US government's appeal. In light of the judgement, bring it into the UK. I think that's an enormously significant development. For the first time since this began, the alternative Australian Prime Minister has said that time is up and that Julian needs to be freed. And now, as others have indicated, the Deputy Prime Minister, Barnaby Joyce, who's been a long-standing member of that group and participated, certainly in the meetings that I've attended. It takes a lot to get Barnaby Joyce, Sally McManus, the Labor Party, the Greens, and all the key cross benches onto the same page. But this is where we are. So that tipping point feels close, but the thing about tipping points is that you never know how far away they are. And when there are cracks in the armour, or when you can get a sense that things are shifting, that's not a time to sit back and feel comfortable. That's a time to step it up, to turn it up, to go harder, and to make sure that we get this over the line. So here's one really simple thing that we can all do. I tried this today, it took three minutes, and I want to see if we can really kick this off online and make sure that they're getting thousands and then tens of thousands of these. Right to the President of the United States. There's a drop-down window there where they want to know what country you come from. Tell them that you're an Australian citizen. Tell them whatever you like. And that Julian Assange needs to be freed. All he needs to do is drop Donald Trump's appeal. He doesn't have to own this. The incoming administration doesn't have to own this Trump-era atrocity so that Julian can come home. Then the most or the second most important thing after you've done that is share that you've done it. And it doesn't matter if you have five followers on Facebook or Twitter or Instagram. Let those five people know that you've done it and give them the opportunity to speak up for Julian as well. I feel as though we're close, but we're not going to get Julian out of Belmarsh prison by congratulating ourselves. We're sharing the information on calls like this, and now we need to turn it up so that we can get our friend out of prison. Thanks so much for coming along. Thank you, Scott. And thank you for that link in the chat. I think we need to get on to that. Please make sure you share it on Twitter and Facebook, whatever your method of sharing such things is. Lots of things to talk about there, Scott. Oh, Mary, so can I throw... Can I throw one last thing in? And this is for people who haven't quit Facebook, which we should all do, is you can encourage your MP to join that parliamentary fringe. You're breaking up, Scott. Well over an MP and get them to get active on call. Yes, we need to approach our MPs and put pressure on them to join this parliamentary group, which has swelled to a couple of dozen members now. And I think that the only party from which there isn't a member is the Liberal Party. Now, Shamira, would you please give us an update on what Amnesty is doing and how you think the campaign is shaping up? Yeah, absolutely. And I'd also like to echo what everyone else has said so far and just be very grateful for the fact that we can come together like this at actually quite a pivotal moment and also an important time where I think, as Scott said, the tide is starting to turn in everyone's favor and for the outcome that we want. And I want to say thanks to Jennifer, Scott and to you, Mary, again, for all the work you've been doing, chipping away. It isn't easy, but it all comes together over time. The main thing I wanted to kind of ground this in related to the theme that we're talking about today are threats to the free press in the 21st century. And there does seem to be a bit of a trend taking place around the world across borders and whether it's the Anglo sphere or the East, however you want to define it. But there's certainly been a bit more of a consistent nature of journalists being cracked down upon. We've seen it in Australia, if you were keeping score, I feel as though you could see there was a bit of a consistent uptick over the last few years. We saw instances like Annika Smith's being raided. We saw comments by Mike Pazzullo encouraging the AFP for doing a good job for that raid, which obviously sets a bit of a precedent and sends a signal. We have seen recently, and Amnesty's reported on this too, in Belarus, Raman Protesovich was arrested on a flight with his partner in imprisoned, Maria Ressa in the Philippines, of course. And a lot of the time, a lot of these journalists are speaking up against governments and the actions that they would probably prefer. Don't come to light. So with all that in mind and all that context, I also wanted to mention that a lot of this seems to come about with the fact that we're living in the information age. It's a bit of a new, uncharted territory, I guess you could say for governments. They have to find a way to kind of keep track of what's being sent. And we live in the information abundance age, I would say as well. With all of that in mind, Assange kind of came through with WikiLeaks at a time which was somewhat innovative to share this sort of information to the public, to cut the middle man, and you could hear the information straight from the horse's mouth. Now that obviously poses a huge threat to governments, particularly when it's not information that they're comfortable or happy sharing, especially when it's human rights abuses, in fact. And I think we can pretty much see that Assange is being used as a scapegoat in that instance. It's incredibly disproportionate the way that he's been treated, let alone discussions on his health and how that's transpired. It's been very clear that he's been made an example of so that it discourages anybody else from performing similar behavior. That's a very strong signal. Of course, amnesty, our role in this has we've actually been quite supportive of Assange and the work that he's done. In 2009, there was a media freedom award that was awarded to Julian and we've consistently called on his release and for the extradition charges to be dropped. And we've ramped that up particularly since the events in Belmarsh over the last couple of years now. We have really strong concerns about where this precedent can go and again, the effect that it can send to publishers, the media industry, and I think that's very clearly an intentional action there from the US government. So, yeah, certainly have been reiterating that. Again, the importance of this issue is that it does impact every single person. It impacts every one of us. Now, there are a million issues going on around the world. Everyone's aware of that. And I feel as though people generally have a certain capacity for what sort of human rights abuses or issues they can take up and put their energy behind. And I think it's certainly our role and all the supporters and all the people on the call today in your own way and in your own circles carrying this message and highlighting its importance. And a lot of the time that can be quite complex when it's communicated, but I think it's really simple. If this precedent is set and already we can imagine how many people haven't spoken up with information because of fear of being treated the same. It's certainly not a roadmap that we want to go down. But if that is the case, you will be consuming information, making your judgments on the world, voting, which is the most important thing in this democracy with perhaps information that doesn't tell you the whole story and information that doesn't actually truly inform you as to who you're voting for. And that is exactly what we need in a stable, strong democracy and that's why I think we're all here today because we see the long-term effects. We know how much of a threat it actually is and obviously there's the significant personal cost to Julian and his health and his family that have had to suffer through this process. So yeah, I think from a campaigning perspective, it's been quite interesting. I mean, as I mentioned, things really ramped up over the last couple of years and particularly getting a petition signed, a global petition calling on the charges to be dropped for the extradition to be halted. That got around 400,000 signatures. We saw a lot of countries in Europe, South America, the US itself getting behind this petition. We then delivered it to the US Embassy here in Sydney and that did create a bit of a groundswell and raise the issue particularly in the media here as well, which was really positive. We've kept up the calls online. Similar to Scott, I would ask everyone here to perform a Twitter action, which we've actually just done only about three or four hours ago, which is calling on the Department of Justice and the UK to drop the charges and halt the extradition directly. So that's something we want to snowball online. I noticed Assange was trending yesterday, which is always great. We liked a time when these moments are happening and obviously with his birthday coming up, it's a great chance to raise more awareness and educate people that may not be as aware of this issue and looking to learn and then hopefully take action. And all those little actions, while they might seem miniscule at the time or like it might not be doing much, they certainly do add up and I can certainly vouch for that seeing how many instances of petitions, consistent calls, leveraging what I call bridges. So people in the public eye that kind of may have their own influence or audience and they can kind of carry this narrative and story to a new audience. It really does build with its momentum and that is usually what seems to be the thing to topple these sort of overhanded actions by governments. So we're definitely on our way, reflecting again on the last couple of years. I've seen definitely a shift in the nature of the conversation. I've seen a shift on the types of people that are getting involved in this campaign and who's supporting. Just throwing back to December last year before the extradition trial happened, I noticed there were people, both Republicans, Democrats, that had condemned Assange back in the day that had actually taken the time to go on Twitter and say, I apologize and retract my statements from before I'm actually in support. Now that in itself shows that this is a bipartisan issue, again, reiterating. It's not about this side or that side. It's something that can kind of unite everybody and does impact everybody. So that's again something that Amnesty is trying to fuel, get as many people aware of this issue and taking action again. And I've noticed as well that just the numbers of people, again, there are little groups like People for Assange in Sydney that again do that chip away on the ground, getting people to sign petitions every day, work year after year. And from them, I've heard when we last spoke that it was really positive responses from people in the public. So it's been a, it's probably one of the hardest challenges you could ask for, you know, for everybody here today to try and unravel, you know, the sort of information that's been put out there and the image that's been put out there consistently for a long time. But I certainly believe that people are aware. It's just a matter of awareness, education, take action, all that comes together and you just be consistent and then targeted to the Biden administration and we hope that we're not far off now from hopefully some really positive news but we've got to keep that. Thank you, Shamira. And that's an excellent suggestion. The Amnesty tweet is important to get onto and Scott's suggestion of contacting the White House. We've got a number of things coming through on the chat in terms of suggested actions calling the Department of Justice, emailing the Department of Justice, writing to the Attorney General, etc. And a number of actions that have happened recently such as the German Bundestag have sent an open letter to President Biden. One of the things though that I think people are particularly interested in at the moment and wanted to know more about is the effect of the latest developments in the legal case. Sigurdur Todas and admitting that he lied in exchange for immunity from prosecution. What does that actually do to the case, Jennifer? Because that second superseding indictment came very late in the piece and now it's really fallen, it's in tatters. All they have, it appears, to rely on now is the fact that they're prosecuting a journalist. That's, that reality is surfacing again because the hacking case which they tried to, the hacking charge which they've tried to bolster has proven to be a huge embarrassment. Yes, well, I mean, I agree with everything you've said, Mary. As we argued in court and as was raised by Mark Somers QC during our extradition proceedings, this second superseding indictment which was based upon Mr Todas' testimony and evidence came very late in the piece and as Mark Somers QC said in court, well, this is because we have such strong free speech arguments on the rest of the case. They're trying somehow to pull this away from a case involving publication to make it something else, to make it about hacking. Now, of course, these allegations were always problematic and we raised that but said in the extradition proceedings because this second superseding indictment came so late. I mean, consider this, the superseding indictment based on this evidence came was served on Julian on the first day of the extradition proceedings in September 2020 when we'd already closed, we'd already served all the evidence, we'd already served all the submissions, we'd already made all our legal arguments and then suddenly the US was presenting a whole entire new case which we didn't have any opportunity to properly or reasonably engage with before the extradition proceedings. Now, following an in-depth investigative process by leading Icelandic journalists, we not only know that the US engaged in questionable legal, well, arguably unlawful evidence gathering activities in Iceland which the Icelandic government is concerned about but second that this key witness not only has no credibility, we know that he's a convicted, he's a convicted criminal having been convicted in relation to sexual abuse in respect of minors and fraud-related offenses that the US case has no factual basis. Now, that is a question now for the Department of Justice in terms of what we can do legally in the UK, we have done everything that we can do. We have challenged the extradition, we won the case, the US is now appealing and we will continue to argue for that. The question is about, is now for the Department of Justice about whether this is an indictment that they ought to be pursuing and what that might look like in terms of a future legal process in the United States. We hope it will never get to that point because of course we don't want Julian extradited there and we're doing everything that we can and our extradition legal team in the UK is doing everything that we can to prevent that from happening. What this shows is that the Department of Justice needs to re-look at this case and consider again whether this is an indictment that's worth pursuing. Part of the problem is here that this very serious development in the case hasn't been covered by the mainstream media and I'm wondering Jennifer or Scott if you have any ideas of how we can make this happen. So for example Jennifer why isn't his legal team giving a press conference to brief the media about this latest development or have they? I have myself given an interview to Democracy Now in the United States so I'm on the record talking about this and making public comment about the evidence. So you know we can't do more it's really a matter for the media and I leave that at the mainstream media for Shamira perhaps about why we're not seeing broader coverage of this and what could be done to change that? I think it's complex and I don't think it's as simple as it looks at the outset. It's not as simple as just condemning the media for not covering it and I think it's kind of important that we don't paint ourselves into a position where we're self-describing as marginal or not very interesting. Whenever there's a significant development in the case when he was ripped out of the embassy when he went into the embassy or the significant revelations Julian leads news bulletins in every time zone on this planet and I feel like it's important to realise that this is the highest profile case of its kind anywhere in the world at this time and it has been for years. As to why they haven't covered these incredible revelations I've seen theories from well the scoop was already made in Iceland so what's the point of echoing it to it's kind of a technicality in what even is a superseding indictment. Three, perhaps there's a denotus in place somebody's popped that proposition into the chat already whereby there's a kind of an informal wink and a nod agreement by media organisations that they're not going to blow oxygen into this particular development because it might harm national security. Who even knows? Or the fourth theory which somebody already mentioned this evening that they're just bloody slow stretched, overworked, not interested interested in different stuff there's a pandemic like the reason why particular newsrooms would pick up an issue and run with it are many and varied. I don't feel it's helpful for us to act as though we're some kind of persecuted marginalised minority. They'll catch up in the meantime don't despair whatever channels we have Jen's done that piece on democracy now what other channels do we have whether it's social media whether we could pitch to local newspapers whatever we can do to amplify it is helpful they'll catch up we can't afford to wait for them. Yes indeed I think you're right Scott the mainstream media on occasion lags behind uncovering certain developments in the case such as the Spanish case the significance of the Spanish case and the spine of few essential agencies on Julian in the embassy and on his legal representatives. Let's just go to come to Australia now where we have the deputy prime minister who's part of the parliamentary group and has made very strong comments in support of Julian and I'm just wondering what you think would be the best way to bring him to a position where he's going to speak to the prime minister and make a public statement about what Australia should be doing. Ring or email his office. Yes. So this stuff isn't rocket science he's just a human being with an office full of overworked staff he's going to be juggling presumably some kind of changed coalition agreement with the prime minister there'll be a thousand things on his mind just contact the office dead simple social media direct email to the office or a phone call Dear Barnaby in any revised coalition agreement can you make sure that we get Julian out of Belmarsh and you've been pushing on an open door because he already agrees with that proposition. I think as Jennifer was pointing out earlier this could be a very very long process with the appeal and potentially an appeal after the appeal so the way to bring this to a resolution is that we need a political solution and political solutions only happen when the public pressure on politicians so I think that's something that we all need to make sure all our contacts are onto as well not just each one of us but also all our social media contacts Jennifer do you hear anything on the ground about what sort of an appetite there is from the Biden administration to continue this from what you've been saying there's no indication whatsoever that they are contemplating dropping the case I don't have any reliable word from on the ground at the moment while we're talking about the United States so I'd also like to pay tribute to the fact that John Shipton and Gabriel, Julian's brother and father have been over there on a huge multi-city tour trying to raise support and raise awareness and engaging publicly and privately with figures in the US administration and outside of it about the case so hopefully we'll have some more updates soon in the United States but if we talk about the Biden administration's public public positioning this is an administration that has stated its commitment to freedom of speech it's an administration that has stated its commitment to closing Guantanamo and it is a very strange position indeed for an administration taking these principled positions or stated policy positions to be continuing with this prosecution which everyone agrees is a huge threat to free speech completely inconsistent with the First Amendment and to be prosecuting and imprisoning the person who's responsible for revealing information about Guantanamo that enabled the campaign to close that place down it's an incredibly hypocritical position so I think there is an openness and there is concern within the administration at least that's what we're hearing there is concern about this case but as we've heard from the stated response from the White House press officer is well the Department of Justice is an independent body contrary to what it was under the Trump administration and it's a matter for the Department of Justice but of course we all know the reality is that this is a political case it's been heavily politicized and a political decision could be taken at any time to close this down Jen there's also a question saying can you give us some news on the Spanish court case I actually don't have any new updates on the Spanish court case my understanding is it is progressing further witness evidence has been taken in the past in the previous few months but my colleagues in Spain are the best place to advise on the updates on that case so I'll leave it to them you're also helping the Italian journalist who is attempting to get documents under FOI from Australia who are dragging their feet can you give us any idea of what's happening there yes so in addition to my role as acting as counsel for Julian I am also counsel to the Italian journalist Stefania Maritzi in her long ongoing battle freedom of information battle against both the Metropolitan Police Service and the Crown Prosecution Service so as many of you will know as a result of our FOI requests and legal challenges on Stefania's behalf Stefania has obtained a wealth of interesting information including evidence that the CPS had deleted emails evidence that it was in fact the UK imploring Sweden to continue with the case but the current battle that we face and that we will be in court for next week is a long-running battle against the Metropolitan Police Service in which Stefania has been asking for information about the three named WikiLeaks journalists Kristin Raffensen, Joseph Farrell and Sarah Harrison now of course Stef made this request many years ago at a time when one we didn't know whether there was an indictment in the United States but we knew there was an ongoing criminal investigation Julian was still inside the embassy but what her request was the thrust of her request was to try to understand what role if any the British police and authorities were playing in the United States criminal investigation into WikiLeaks that is what role are the British police playing in investigating British journalists doing their job in Britain in aid of a foreign criminal investigation now we have been up and down the courts on this case they have tried to block us on data protection issues which of course all three of the WikiLeaks journalists said why are you blocking this Stefania has my consent and through this case we set the legal precedent to say that journalists can make requests that touch upon personal data information provided they have the consent of the named individual so we got over that hurdle then after Stefania litigating up and down the courts for the past five years with my assistance the UK government tried to block it on jurisdictional grounds saying well actually we don't have jurisdiction we question whether we have jurisdiction to receive FOI requests from foreign journalists so we had to have another hearing in January this year to argue that point which we were again successful on and now the Metropolitan Police Service is trying to block this information from Stefania citing national security exemptions claiming that counter-terrorism policing practices would be put at risk if they disclosed information that was gathered or is held about WikiLeaks journalists now this is a serious matter if you have the police applying a national security exemption they are basically admitting or it seems to us they're admitting they are using counter-terrorism tactics against journalists and for that reason the national union of journalists has intervened in the case and made submissions saying journalism is not a crime national security journalism is not a crime and it is an outrage that the British police are applying these exemptions and these tactics in respect of journalists so we are in court next week to argue this case and again I want to pay tribute to Stefania for her long-standing commitment to accessing information to tell us what's actually going on in this case and in the various aspects of this case here here to Stefania and they're also using counter-terrorism legislation to arrest comedians in this country so yes extraordinary Shamira can you give us some idea of how the amnesty campaign is going internationally I know in Australia you're very active and it's tremendous but just tell us how it's going internationally and where the campaign is doing really well yeah thanks Mary yeah as you mentioned there was a lot of a lot of drive I suppose you could say coming from Australia obviously for an Aussie very close to home and that did rub off across a number of sections across amnesty the the UK office has been doing quite a bit there as well in kind of guiding the strategy I would say we've had fairly frequent sort of strategy sessions and campaign strategy sessions to reflect on what tactics have worked what is cutting through with the public you know what is the audience that we need to reach to kind of create critical mass on this campaign and what sort of what messaging and communication actually speaks to them as they listen in the first place whilst also segmenting you know the the demographics or segment of society that we know wouldn't would never consider support so it's kind of trying to find the gray area where we can kind of educate and create awareness there so yeah it's been a it's been a bit of a a campaign focused on moments as we are here today you know World Freedom of Press Day being another one the trial itself and the appeal date so we've kind of waited for those moments to come up and leverage them that's not a number of them are global so as I mentioned particularly in Europe there's been quite a quite a lot of support the main ones were around Austria Slovenia I think Portugal there as well that come to mind and that seems to be growing as well the more that we push on this again the fact that the extradition didn't happen during that trial was also a really positive sign obviously the nature of it is something else to discuss but yet we have seen that sort of concerted honing in of our campaigning having a bit more impact so we'll just continue to do that we're going to focus on trying to you know go a bit closer to home in America if possible but we're always reevaluating and finding the best way to to do that so there are a number of questions too about Julie and the situation in Belmarsh I don't know whether I know I know Scott I know you have contact with him and Jen obviously you do is there any more that we can add any more that you can say about how he's fearing unfortunately because I'm in Australia at the moment and with the border closures it's very difficult I obviously can't visit him we also have the COVID restrictions in the UK in any event even if I were in the UK it would be difficult if not impossible for me to visit him so I haven't seen him in person since the extradition hearing in the cells under the old Bailey even Stella his partner has had difficulty visiting him and as you mentioned Mary has only been in to see him recently but we are obviously in regular contact with him if not myself our legal team but like I said it's incredibly isolating and this long wait to find out what if anything is going to happen with the appeal is is incredibly difficult so it's not that much much more to say yes no well I think a lot of supporters are very concerned about how he's fearing precisely because of that because we're not getting any news of him really and because people can imagine what it's like after being pursued relentlessly for so many years and persecuted the effect that it could be having on him just before we wrap up I thought I'd ask each of you if there's a final point that you'd like to make or take home message for everyone listening from your perspective Shamira would you like to start yeah sure I think you know yeah we've been speaking on this topic you know over a quite a bit of time and like I said earlier it's just nice to see that the changing sentiment and it going from you know sort of focusing on the issues at hand to understanding that they're now leading to progress and there's more optimism positivity I think when it comes to campaigning that's something that a lot of the time you have to have because you have to make you have to believe that you can make these things happen and do whatever it takes to get there and that's something that drives movements and gets people on board right so I think more of a focus on that now is important for everybody but I think it's naturally it's organically happening which is really heartening and I think no matter who you are again the people on this call are obviously you know quite supportive and I'm sure I've been taking actions talking to people raising awareness and doing what they can I think really just to be you know well done and it's not easy I know it's it's a consistent trip away but that's when you get the most results and that's the only way can work here and we're all doing this for very meaningful reasons and important reasons on many fronts so just keep going and keep banning together and reiterate what Scott said about calling your MPs I think with Barnaby now it's a great opportunity and just continue with the online you know being vocal online be consistent be welcoming in a sense so we're not kind of pushing people away but only drawing people in which only builds the momentum but yeah let's let's keep pushing and let's keep going thank you thanks Jamira Scott I feel as though there's a couple of concrete things that have come out of tonight as long as we agree that a call like this is just the first step that none of us get to go away feeling as though we're up we participated we've done a bit for Julian we haven't what really matters now is what happens after this call so call your MP your federal MP and find out if they're involved in the parliamentary friendship group for Julian Assange and if they are what they're pressing that group to do and let's get on to Barnaby with a powerful will we know we've got a supporter in the second highest political office in the land so let's go for it thanks Scott Jennifer well first and foremost I want to say that I feel a sense of optimism seeing the incredible solidarity efforts that have been taking place over the past week in relation to Julian whether it's parliamentarians coming out people getting out protesting the events that I've seen in the US in Australia and the UK and elsewhere and I really just want to emphasise how important those solidarity efforts are because this case is so political and it requires political action to bring it to an end so I would just encourage everyone to take the campaign hints that you've heard from Shamira and Scott and to get involved because every little bit helps and as for us as a legal team it is incredibly encouraging to see that and I feel a sense of optimism and a sense that we can actually bring this to an end and I've always believed that that's why I'm still here and still fighting for him and we of course will continue to do so but we need more help and your help is important Thanks Jennifer and from me I'd just like to say be outraged this is a journalist he's been in arbitrary detention for 11 years he's turning 50 he has two young children even if he didn't he should not be there because we are putting truth in prison so please be outraged and don't give up I think all those messages that you've heard tonight are very very important this does need a political solution but political solutions don't happen unless there is a groundswell of public putting pressure on those politicians Thank you to all three of you tonight Jennifer, Scott, Shamira and thank you for joining us tonight