 Thank you for keeping us company. This is Y244 news highlights. We move straight to our discussion tonight where we are talking about women in power. And just to mention, but a few of the women in positions of power. We have Rita Kavesha, Managing Director at Suzu East Africa. We have Silvia Mwilinge, who is the Chief Customer Officer at Safaricom. We have Carol Karioki, Chief Executive Officer at Kepsa. We have Shelly Kara, who became the first woman to be elected by the Facebook's Board of Directors of the Chief Operating Officer at Facebook. We have Sarah Sanamarin, Prime Minister of Finland. Carol Mungai, Artist being listed on the annual Forbes Africa 30 under 30 as a Game Changer is no main fit. And lastly, we have Lorne Rongo, Managing Director, Gennadine Grove. These are just but a few people who have been there. But also, if you remember, we had Ellen Johnson-Salif with the former president of Liberia. Women in power, what can they do with power? We have so much crisis in our country, they are looking for the zand gender rule. What will happen? I'm speaking to Kirubo Shelly and Sarah Slitz, a political analyst. And Shelly is an advocate. Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. Good evening. Thank you for coming. Now, I will begin with you, Cyrus. Now that we are talking about women, let's begin from the head. Do you think our country Kenya has given our women enough space to feel they have the power and they can accomplish what they keep on saying what a man can do, a woman can do better? Thank you for having me this evening. I believe that our country is trying to be there with regards to the gender parity role. So it is trying, it is trying to make those steps. So you cannot say it is failing, but you can say it is trying. And we are still looking forward to assure that these spaces are well managed with the women because a number of women have been in position and have made institutions look better than the way they were. Just to mention a few, if you look at KU, Kenya University, in the back years compared to when Mugenda took it, Dr. Olive Mugenda. You have two Mugendas, the ladies and then the lady. Now, when she took over from the other professors, or from the other VCs, she changed the environment. Now, when you go to KU, it's different from how it was some years back. So these are some of the things that we look into and say it's good. Look at Safarkum, there it is performing to some extent. Let us not look at the top management, but look at that lady who is there, in the marketing section. She is doing her job in the best way. And there are other areas that women have performed best, even in sports. Let us not only look at leadership, even in sports, they are doing their best, they are doing their exemplary. So we need to have this conversation more and more, especially on calling upon the parliament to ensure that the gender rule is well achieved. And I've always said that to achieve this gender rule, we need also to start with the parties. Let the parties ensure that women are not only leaders in the women group, okay? Women, there's that section, it's only for women and youth in the mainstream. Let them ensure that the women are also leaders in the mainstream. Let us have a secretary general with powers, who is a woman within the party. So by doing this, we shall be elevating our women in the political cycles. Let us live along the corporate circles, because the corporate circles has worked well. Now let us look at the political cycles. What is it going to do? Now we need to have a push, we need to have a talk, and it's not going to be more than a talk, it's going to be more than a talk, not just a talk. We need to have a serious conversation on this so that we empower our women, because they are also human beings like us. Very true. Now that you have mentioned the women in sport, hail to Helene O'Biri and Akina Brigitte Kosgei. Now, Kirubo Shali. We have had a problem in parliament when they want to pass that gender rule, but they lack quorum. And the question is who is the enemy of who, because they just need to be over 45 for them to pass. Actually they need only 45 nominated for the bill to pass. Would you say it's true a woman is the enemy of the other woman or what bars you or keeps you from having the power you so desire? I think your views are very inaccurate example and I think that in your example you are thinking of it from the point of view that it is only women who can uplift women so that you are thinking well. But they never show up. Actually they get there about 10. Well, what you are trying to put across is that it's only women who can uplift women, that if you want better terms for women, then we have to do it ourselves. And it's not only women who are in parliament, even the men can participate, so that maybe you should give us a picture of how many men abscond, how many men abscond such sessions versus the number of women who abscond, because it's not just a women issue. But the bill was being passed by a man. It was being passed by a man. But when you say that women are now letting each other down, it's like you are insisting that it's only a woman issue. And I think that when women are empowered, it is not only women who benefit. I think even men can benefit from such and well, I don't think that is a very good example to use. And you mentioned something else other than whether women are their own enemies. Because even in elections, you will find now a man, a few of the women will vote, but they will say. How are you able to verify that? Because election is a secret ballot. So how do you know? It has been proved. How do you know? It has been proved. Often, it has. How do you know that this women... Let me say something out true. One, let us look at the population. Who are the majority? Women. Okay. So, to some extent, this narrative works. Women are enemies to themselves. We would have voted matakarua him. Leave alone matakarua. Even in 1997, we would have voted. We would have voted him as the president. Women should vote for women and men. No, as in we say, if at least the women who are there would push the agenda, then me as a man who wants the women to be empowered, I bring my vote finished. Question. Do all men vote for a specific person? No. Together. We vote for the agenda. What the person brings. It's your vote, your choice, your secret ballot. Niwa wunamua. Right? So there's also something else. You see, like I said, it's not always that only a woman can uplift other women. Even men can do it. So if I decide out of all the candidates who are vying, I think that probably if you are vying and the so-called matakarua is vying, and I listen to your policies and everything else, I realize you are offering better terms for my agenda. Why should I vote for you? So we bid them on policies. Yeah. From where you say, do you feel like women have been empowered enough in this country? No. Why? No, I think, like he said, we are really trying on paper. We are putting up all these policies, but practically it's, there's a huge disconnect between what we say in theory and what it's quaground. Between different. Then where is the problem? And we are really trying. Yeah? We are really trying. We have a lot of legislation. Well, I think that where we are failing is that the way you, the perspective which you brought, whereby you think it's a women problem, it is all our problem. Honbill's problem is all our problem. You think it's just a women issue, so that once you have a policy that is opening up opportunities for women, you start to resent us. You think that we are being favored. When we actually deserve these positions, we deserve those platforms. And once you mention something like affirmative action, there's a lot of negativity surrounding the whole affirmative action because people only think of it in terms of gender. Yeah? But we also have affirmative action in terms of youth empowerment, persons with disabilities, marginalized communities, and what else? Yeah? But when you say that, well, we are nominating marginalized groups, women, youth, persons with disabilities, no one will question why we are putting youth there. I mean, they lack the qualifications, like in a tendering process, for example, there are those qualifications. No one will question why affirmative action, when affirmative action is being applied on those other platforms. But when it's being applied in terms of men versus women, there's a lot of bitterness surrounding the conversation because agenda is a very sensitive topic. That's why even the intersex topic, no one, it's a no-go zone. And I think I was having this discussion with my colleagues. These are advocates, they are learned, they should know better. Whereby, someone is feeling very negative about women getting affirmative action which is in favor of women and I was asking the person, you see? I want you to hold on that thought, I want you to hold on that thought because I can see Sarah wants to rebut on something that you say that I don't want to miss. Now, let us not have a misconception of gender parity, or achieving the gender rule. Remember, the gender is all about, this is the gender, we are illas a gender. Okay? Now it is now divided between men and women. Okay? Now when we talk of gender, today women might be more. Exactly, that is what I was. Now affirmative action or calls should be there to talk, let us have a gender balance, okay? When we talk of gender balance, let us have equality or equity. Let us have equity in these things. Now, when we talk of those affirmative actions, when the people who benefit most on affirmative actions are women, why am I saying so? Women are youth, because when they talk of youth, men, they include women. When you talk of women, now women are there, both youth, both who are youthful and who are old. Okay? No, no. When they talk of people with disability, women are there and they are called marginal. Now the people who are now discriminated in these affirmative actions, actually men, or let me say young men, who are youths who are below 35. But now women benefit all around. Like the three quarters of that cycle, people who are benefiting much are the women, because they fall under every category. I was coming to that. I was coming to that. When I was having this discussion with some of my colleagues, well, and then I will tell them, you see, the constitution says two-thirds, it should be two-thirds of either gender, not more than two-thirds of either gender. It doesn't say women. There's nowhere it says a third must be women and two-thirds must be men. So when you think of it that it's benefiting women, it means you're thinking of it as something that it's only like, it's women. But you see them politically as being given positions. And I was telling this my colleagues, well, think about this situation where one day you will find yourself in a position where the women are more in these positions. So will you still be against that affirmative action? Or will you naturally say boy child is neglected. So let us do something. Actually boy child is neglected. I want us to talk about the complete space. And even if you say that these positions it's women who are benefiting more, still the thing is we have still not achieved that threshold. So we are still far behind. Two weeks ago I attended a graduation, the one for the HRs, and I had a statement that somewhat, it bit my logic, only there was a scenario where a corporate an NGO had over 100 women, two gents, qualifications because everything is okay. But these people have been empowered to position, okay, it's not that they are no men out here, they are there. But we have gradually given new people position, we have allowed you to... Given? No, we desert it. You didn't give us anything? We are not even competing, but also these things are happening, like for example, of which it's not something I would want us to do so much on it, we are having a report where women are saying if the president is, the deputy should be. If the governor is, you want to go for the lower position, yet you can even go for the higher position. You see, for me concerning the current debate that's there, let us not just have things like because so and so is on top, then this so and so should be. And they want it to be automatic? This is a chance given to everybody. There are no rules set in the constitution, they say that a president must be a woman or a president must be a man. No, it is a chance that is given to each and every Kenyan. Okay, there is no segregation when that time comes of election. So everyone is equal to those chances and everyone is given that opportunity to stand and fight. Whatever gives you an upper hand and as she said, you asked her a very simple question. When a man stands, then he stands, why do you choose a man and not a lady? She answered here and said ideologies go run better than they did. I didn't say that men's ideologies always run better. Which is an often occurrence. You have just misquoted. I didn't say that men usually have better policies every time. I'm saying in every situation you have to consider some things. Let me just give you another example. You guys will say, well women are not going for the top positions. The truth is they are going for those top positions but there's a lot of male chauvinism you don't want to give them. Like they recently concluded LSK elections. I openly supported a very nice lady who I felt was competent, experienced and well, great for the job. Two women died, two men died. So your idea that women don't go for those positions is not true. The vice chair position, there was one woman, one man. Somehow the voters decided for this president position, they give a man and the vice chair. Then I will ask you what the majority of the voters. Personally, no actually for our profession the men are more. They are more. They are more. Okay so in this example we will explain. Like I said that is a very simplistic way to look at it. I actually supported a very nice lady who I felt is better place to represent as than everybody else. And you know what happened in that situation? The male candidates took it upon themselves to discredit the women simply because they are women. You know they go around when they are campaigning they will say you see I want you to think about where you are supporting these ladies. This is not about affirmative action. We are not voting because of gender. We are voting because of qualifications. What does that tell you? It tells you that this person has already decided these women are not competent and that the only reason we are supporting them is because they are women. So I asked him what makes you think I'm only supporting her because she's a woman. I believe. And I told him, I was very pointing. I told him I think she can make a much better leader than you. I believe. That's why I'm supporting her. So it's not, I didn't even think of her gender in the first place. One. I believe. And you know the funny thing which happened. The current council members, 11 are women only 3 are men. You see. So everybody who was against affirmative action at the end of the day all those who against affirmative action are now saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, now boy child must do something. Now they are saying now we need affirmative action to have more men in LSK council. And it's a very interesting conversation. You know the problem is we don't want to have this conversation early. We wait for something to happen so that we react. The top student is Agal. That is when you are like, okay. What is happening to boys? Instead of having this conversation early. So that as we are uplifting fellow women you also mentor like how many boys have you mentored so far. Now. Now looking into that. You brought up a very nice idea that we wait when that time is ripe. Now when we start looking. When it's too late. When it's too late. These issues. Now when we look at those issues at that particular time. Now that's where we go wrong and never achieve it. It now becomes a competition between men and women. Now it is now upon us. It's our responsibility to educate the public. Enlighten them. Carry out these activities. And you see best on the qualification of an advocate and a lawyer. You are in the best position also to advocate for this. You are not only required to advocate for people in courts. But also to advocate for their rights and champion for their rights. Okay. During any other particular time. Whatever you feel that is not being achieved. For the time you should come out and raise about it. And on the issue of talking about KCSE. There's been a lot of discrimination because one. I saw some years back a boy and a girl tied. But who did they give a lot of limelight in the media? Girl. A girl. But these people tied. Another scenario. A boy became number one. A girl became number two. Who was given the highest limelight? The girl. And the boy has been said now. I can also give you an example where. You see even the cut of Z-fever, the girl. I can also give you an example where. You see affirmative action started a long time ago. Remember the grade that you used to join the low school. My grade was way higher than most boys in that school. Fine fine fine. So they might want to think it was affirmative action. Listen first. Listen first. You see the grade that is given for a boy child to go into medicine or low school. And the one that is given for a girl. Very different. I can also give you an example. They are very different. It goes on the, you see when a lady has a bee. What a lady can do with a bee is not the same man or a boy can do with a bee. Actually the disparage is not as huge as you are trying to portray it. Now we've been in the system. We've been in the school. So we know what you're talking about. I'm not just talking from the blues. You want to tell me every classmate of yours in the university had lesser qualifications than you if she's a girl. Yes. There were affirmative actions. All right. There were affirmative actions. That is not true. I've been to a lot of time. But now I want to get a very quick one from you. Now okay of course we've said as a country we are not at a place we want to be. We need to empower our women. Better. And it's not only in the corporate spaces, even in the political spaces. But then now that you know our problem, what's the way forward? I think that the way forward is to create a better environment. Don't just say in your head that you support when women go and get ahead. What are you doing to ensure that the environment is conducive enough? Because you'll find sadly okay for maybe our generation and entry level you'll find there are probably more women in those employment positions than men. Then as you go upwards it just it just keeps thinning out like then you find like two women, a hundred men, you know. And what happens in between is that for women there are a lot of other responsibilities which are placed on us and it's always made to feel as if those other responsibilities should be prioritized more than your own professional. For an example, let's say I'm a woman and I'm not currently married or having any kids. But if I was in that situation, I wouldn't probably be here right now. You'll be home cooking? Cooking, taking care of a crying baby. I have to wake up before my husband in the morning. Not so that I can go to work and climb the corporate ladder. But so that I can prepare him to go because he's job is more important than mine. These are the things empowerment is coming along with that. It's the truth. It's like sometimes you may want to feel as if we have a choice but we don't because if you don't do those things no one else is going to do them. And your husband will probably, like the way I'm an advocate right now any time I go into a discussion with people or I introduce myself as an advocate, the first thing they will tell me will you ever get a husband? Because to almost everyone getting a husband is more important to me You have no social life. Let me give you a note of time. Me too. You have final words on this. My final words is that let us create awareness. Let us advocate for this gender equality at the right time. Because this is the right time to advocate for it. Not when there is a crisis. Not when there is a crisis. And the crisis we are talking about is when we have an election we have something to do with the and also let me question why is it that when a woman is campaigning for governorship he will look for a man to be his deputy governor and when a man is campaigning for governorship he is looking for a man to be a deputy governor, a running match. So why can't women believe one thing women don't believe in themselves? What can they believe in themselves? If you are a woman going for a governor position no, if you are a woman going for a governor position then get the same woman going for the deputy governor position and then we see now how the community will go about it and now a lot of men will say they cannot have a woman after that we shall know what to do because these things start with us and stops with us so our efforts will be more of help than any other thing Alright, clearly this conversation can't just end right here and I think we need more time to deliver it on these things otherwise thank you so much for coming I share Liki Rubo advocate and political analyst Elitsoa Cyrus