 toad ujitinsi. Mamodamerara mi, ma魚-caraon i maarama r similarity aro� iahhai. Mamoi mumsu mayかな ui Ema Hōki mef pilotu directive woven viewoa ka calm y description ecboto wo k hole guide pinned beg gjw pw analytics content meown iotany Disc i franchise pieungi ieinsod cotswi ganda i man regulusi аpanzi. Atelie wama hui youkera main b فா apprendre hui. Te Ka, I nsorry. Rando to be creative commons licenced. I think that expectation will be there as well. So what that opens up for what the public can do with our 3D scans of collection objects that we look after poses some really interesting opportunities and challenges for museums. And we do see already that artists and others are using 3D scanned data either collected just within a museum or through other means, maybe hacking into a system. I don't know. This is an example from two Egyptian artists who scanned or say they scanned the Nafriti bust which is held in a Berlin museum and then made by the scans openly accessible through career commons licences, 3D printed it back in Egypt and brought that into the political discourse around why museums have these objects and should they have them in the first place. So that's what really interests me is what sort of challenge will come to museums from the public and good challenge, good conversation and good debate to be engaged with. And again I have to preface all of my answers with the fact I don't work in this space but one of the things that I found is that there's a couple of broad buckets here. One is whether you're looking for highly curated, specialised experiences that bring people to an institution or you're looking at finding ways of helping people take parts of your collections outside of your institution back home to their places of study or research and those operate on different sets of scale potentially with different technologies. I think there's fascinating opportunities in both from bringing people into an institution I think there's an opportunity even while the hardware is relatively high cost to build exhibits that are unlike things that people have seen before and that's always a draw to get people into an environment. If there's an opportunity to see something that's never been put on display before even in a virtual sense or two things to be brought together that exist in different parts of the world that can be seen side by side for the first time I think that's eminently achievable within the next, well now to be honest but within the next couple of years. But I think you also can consider making a lot of this content available for people however they use to consume it via standard ways of downloading this data. Going back to your point Phil, most of us in the room have lived through the great age of the revision of the Visit of Photography policy which I think we all would have thought would be very, very straightforward it's just like people want to take photos on their phones but it wasn't because it flows all the way through it's copyright, it's exhibition design, it's loans, it's touring exhibitions it's Wi-Fi, it's having social media presences to track the usage and interact with it. It's having charging points in your museums because people have now a whole new set of expectations to build on your point and maybe some other perspectives as well so what do we need to do to be ready for this new level of interest? Well Nils has to arrange a panel like this it's having thought about it today because I don't think we really thought about people taking images in their gallery spaces really until it was already widespread and happening so yeah I mean being more prepared we don't have standards, we don't have policies, procedures, processes for 3D, how we're going to look after those digital scans afterwards digital preservation as far as I know within New Zealand we haven't really had those conversations we certainly haven't within our own institution really yeah so being prepared I mean I guess it's but coming back to your more sort of standard point I guess it's using those as opportunities if people do scan within their galleries or start engaging in taking 3D scans themselves within their galleries or whatever or using the 3D scans we provide in interesting ways that we're up for that really and that at all levels at a museum we've had that discussion and we know what what our kind of position is on how we're going to be part of that engagement and part of that debate because even if it's good or bad it makes this relevant it keeps this relevant if we're having those discussions and debates obviously there's a lot of cultural sensitivities particularly in our Tarlamari galleries and that's probably the biggest area of concern for any of us particularly currently with 2D photography so yeah that probably opens up the biggest area where we don't want to see that those Tarlamari used in ways that are better inappropriate and not sensitive to that story It's a really interesting friction that I think we're going to be seeing just to kind of really see what's possible we did a little like a kind of an instant pilot thing at the museum a couple of years ago actually where we scanned an object with a phone just an iPhone using a free app 123D catch is what it was called and scanned a Canon on display sent it to the cloud service that turns it to a model got it back within 10 minutes sent it to a 3D printer and had a copy of that Canon to take away with us within the course of three hours and nothing could have stopped us from uploading that model to another cloud service like Shapeways which is a 3D fabrication online service where you can upload your models and you can have your own shop so nothing would stop me from going and scanning some of our precious, really culturally sensitive as it was also touching on Taunga carvings turn them into a pendant and put them on for sale to the world while I'm still in the museum that was possible two years ago and with the onset of say 3D capture that Windows is now making standard feature or Microsoft is making standard feature of Windows 10 on any Windows phone so we can just really expect that stuff to happen and to increase so how do we feel about that? I think it's going to be hard to put a lid on and to stop yeah, I mean I don't have an answer but it's interesting discussion to have and yeah, it is isn't it and the Rijksmuseum making the best quality files they can available for their images for download is the expectation the same with 3D do we want the best quality representation of an object that we can out there rather than having very poorly scanned versions of important collection objects once we do that the possibilities of what can be done with that digital scan in the future are much wider and greater and less able to be controlled by the museum and to motivate a guest about control and freedom and given that we're all working within tight budget envelopes and given that our audience represents all kinds of organisations I'm assuming from large to small from ones that have got digital teams to ones that have got someone who just does this because they know a little bit about it where would you be investing your time and effort your time spent even just learning about the area let alone putting in a budget line to do something in order to get ready for what this offers us behind the scenes and is it affronting Well, I guess the way I'd look at that we've been operating with no money at all as far as anything 3D is concerned but the recommendation would be just to look at sort of free open source or just open licence software for doing things like 3D design and photogrammetry and then just kind of testing that out within the time and space that you have available to do that from there you can kind of at least sort of get a better understanding of what might be possible or what might be useful as well Yeah, once you get pretty serious about it I guess there are things that will cost a lot of money which I guess Nils probably talk a little bit more about from the museum point of view but if it is just for things such as education and that one thing that's quite valuable is just learning to sort of navigate a 3D space within the confines of a 2D computer monitor because at the moment that is kind of one of the limitations that we have available until things like mixed reality do become common place so in the meantime I think you're just becoming familiar with just I guess general principles and how to interact between physical and I guess digitally stored material maybe I don't know I send some of those items to shape ways or 3D printing hub or if you have access to a 3D printer just to be able to start experimenting with how to take some of those digital things and make them physical and vice versa with photogrammetry I can jump in there So the major cost for me is time it's labour so I use a fairly simplistic 3D scanner in 2014 it costs maybe a couple of grand it's a David system and it's basically a projector and a camera and it's a bit of a learning curve to it but it can produce really good results and it can produce results that I can use for my research but also for teaching and it sounds like a terrible thing to say we passed the rubbish onto the students' buttons but it's time so it's really intensive and it really has to be quite a consideration whenever we start a 3D scanning project just how much time that's going to take but for us we mostly use the digital models so we can just display them in platforms like Sketchfab and other online things we don't need to print them out but when we do the printing for us is cheap compared to buying in anatomical replicas so that might be actual biological materials or casts, really high quality casts we can scan and print better than what we could buy and we can do it bespoke so we can say well I really want this frog skeleton I want this bone whatever it is and we can make that one rather than having to go through someone else's catalogue and say well this is close enough we'll take that one and we'll alter our learning objectives around that particular model the printing and the reproduction in that sense it's cheap but the time is still quite expensive I think there's also scope to work with cheaper resources basically to engage students and schools to help with your scanning and build educational programming around that as well because I know there's a lot of interest talking to schools and teachers to teach 3D to their students and that's certainly one of the needs that we've recognised that they actually come to us and what can we do and maybe there are ways we can enable that and facilitate that at a very low level it doesn't have to be the top notch 3D scanning a robot system can be a phone, can be a smartphone and there's nothing to stop a school group from using a few iPod touches to scan a few objects in the field that's already possible and it won't produce super high resolution images but it will definitely be good enough to print to replicate, to share so there's definitely very low entry barrier ways into the topic and you shouldn't be scared by the technicality of it all and those that threshold so I don't think much of an issue and the same goes for cost because you can do it cheaply you can do it on a shoe string I know who of you saw that around the Mongatapu murderous project that she did on a shoe string and it's a beautiful outcome, it's a beautiful result and they engaged I don't know was her son or her colleague son who did the modelling there's definitely ways to bring people in because there's a lot of early adopters who would be keen as to jump to the challenge and be part of it because we as a museum or as galleries are really keen to work with and we have the stories to bring those objects to life so that, you know, we have all the pieces it's about making opportunities creating opportunities We do need to clearly identify who the users are going to be and what our objectives are and I think both Daniel and Nils have spoken to that Nils is a classic case of a user need for 3D scans and 3D objects so I think the next couple of years it's just trying to be really clear about who those users are going to be what the objectives are and working back from that to what the technology needs to be to enable that or who could do it for us so I think there is room for entry level right up to the highest level and how we do that so in saying that it's quite different to how we do 2D digitisation now we are trying to provide access at scale to parts of our collections at Nuland Seas as we all know so this 3D I guess in the next couple of years feels like a much more targeted, very specific focus on particular types of objects particular types of collections that have aspects to them that will be brought to life by 3D so you just, like anything being clear about users and objectives will help That brings me quite nicely to my next point I'll just remind myself of my next point So I'm going to make a blazing assumption here there's been an enormous amount of investment in 2D digitisation in the hopes that it will change the world and maybe come to wash its own face but we are spending money and not making money not that making money is always our objective but we have to do all the other things as well Is there a potential revenue source that's about to, or revenue opportunities that might be opened up with this technology that we haven't had before and if there is should we be looking to exploit those Good question I think probably definitely but it's just a matter of whether it's enough to be worthwhile so just the fact that 3D objects if you were to sell them through shapeways or have them fabricated they actually have some kind of utility, they have some kind of use if you were to sell them just as products maybe just for commercial reasons you can gain money back that way whereas I guess with 2D digitisation that's a lot more limited to what you can actually do with an image for the most part I guess what you can really do is look at it and see if these objects are one way where at least you can regain some money on it I don't know, there are so many other opportunities beyond making money and I don't think we'd ever make much money out of this just as we haven't with images so I think there's much more greater opportunity to make museums relevant and to make our collections and our stories known and be able to be used by people so I think the experiences that we'll be able to create in 3D environments and using 3D scans of our images will keep people coming to the museum that's where museums make their money is by getting people through the door and I think that's still a focus as creating those engaging engaging experiences and interactives that will bring people in and I think 3D the types of environments that David's showing us yesterday will do that and will make museums relevant to the stories to people I think I would agree very much that maybe there are some direct ways of selling fabricated or the rights to fabricated versions of scans but most of it could be very indirect or even quite a long tail approach just building new experiences for people to experience things in ways that they've not been able to experience them before to get more people engaged in this space and to get people more interested in the subject it might be a while before you notice any return on investment but I think it has real potential to offer that I might throw it open to the floor now I really meant to be ah, we've got a runner, awesome does anyone have a question? My question is can I stand now? I can stand completely Yeah, you're right, technology fails Hello Just stand up and shout then Check, check Make it accessible for reuse and store it for longevity purposes but also it's part of the museum's history that you're actually creating as well so what about the future? Are standards being developed internationally at some level that the panel are aware of how can we get engaged with that if we should engage with that or should we just let it go free range a bit like IPTC inform some of our still images standards because are we creating a new legacy? Yeah That's a very good question and I think it's fair to say that those standards there's several concurrent standards some of them are equivalent to raw data if you think about 2D images which are the ones that retain the most data that allows you to do stuff with in the future but I certainly haven't come across any collection grade standards in the glam sector yet or even discussions about that there's a few de facto standards for 3D models that we also adhere to because that's just the standards that you work with and those are standards that are in turn also supported by document asset management systems which can ingest those and retain 3D volumetric data so that's a big criteria really for us to store it sustainably and keep the record forever more hopefully but yeah, it's hard to say whether it's going to go and if there's going to be new standards at some point and how to best go about it it's probably similar to the way 2D imaging has gone to reach that level where everybody has agreed on a standard Is this an area that you are looking into as part of your... It's a really good question and something we've got to grapple with and we'll try and capture things that are high through resolution we can and the principles I guess are largely the same so it's trying to bring some of the principles that we know well and they've developed through this community of practice to 3D and see what the differences are but I'm also thinking about how we find these scans and Dave might have some ideas about this, about getting away from you know, text-based searching for these types of scans and is there a sort of shape-based searching or other types of mechanisms that are in development or coming close that will help if you don't know what you're looking for but you might know you've got this type of object how can I find other types of objects that are in dispersed and collections around the world That's great. One is on formats We can't speak from a glam perspective but clearly there have been a number of formats for dealing with 3D content emerge many years ago The challenge of course is just making sure that the relevant metadata travels with anything I mean we've seen that with pictures that you can get very high resolution pictures but without any metadata whatsoever as long as you're embedding a sense of scale provenance, all those other things that you need to capture into the image format into the 3D capture format that hopefully is the best possible chance of success In terms of searching, I think it's somewhat tangential but incredibly interesting in that it opens a new way of potentially finding things based on computer vision and based on matching three-dimensional aspects of an object with other aspects and I'd love to see connections made between objects that are housed in basements around the world come together in some form of virtual collections I've seen some early examples of that with things like Leonardo da Vinci notebooks have been brought together for the first time in several hundred years in a virtual space so that you can see them both and from a researcher perspective and I guess an educational perspective in general that's hugely interesting and it's something that is very hard to do otherwise finding that content is an interesting opportunity when you have the richness of 3D data with the metadata that goes on with it Thank you so much for this. Can you hear me? Actually, just to answer your question if I may and then I have a quick question for you Nils, you mentioned laser scan photogrammetry structured like TT scan where I personally see the field going towards photogrammetry I work a lot in laser scanning and it's very proprietary software but with photogrammetry you're talking about image files and museums are great at archiving image files so I think the problem then becomes just data storage at that point and then my question to you is whether you're doing new experiences so I'm just curious for the museum people especially in an art museum a lot of the objects are divorced from its or it's very divorced from its site or where it came from so I'm curious if there are any projects in the work or any thinking you've done about 3D capturing an object and as well as the site that it comes from and combining these data sets we haven't done anything in that space it's a great idea and I've read about projects around the world where they are trying to do that, trying to recreate say a destructed cemetery and things like that and trying to bring 3D scans of cemetery stones, gravestones back into that place and recreate those environments so I think that's a really valuable use case for this sort of work. We don't have anything on the pipeline I've certainly seen some interesting starting points for trying to combine high resolution 3D scans with panoramic videos spatial audio captures of environments so you can put things in context and it really does bring those, it brings a new dimension to those artefacts when you see them in the area that they were found and that's just the area where there's a recreation which I've seen some examples of as well it can be a very powerful way of taking people somewhere which is expensive to do clearly if you build that environment physically but if you have access to the 3D scans and you can construct using some of the relatively low cost tools of virtual environment to place that in context I think again it's one of those experiences that is new outside of the display case but in the environment that it was originally used I think has tremendous potential. Absolutely for objects that are lost, if you have the physical environment the question was you can do that the other way around if you have the physical environment but you don't have access to the physical object then you can place a virtual version of that in that place and I think that works equally well in a mix reality space where people have either a recreation of a tomb for example or you can go into an actual site that has had the valuable pieces removed you can bring those things back in a virtual sense let people experience the space, let people experience the scale but see those objects in context a true scale in a mix reality experience I think again is a hugely interesting experience that people are probably not very used to having It does sort of raise a question as well about saving environments in cultural contexts that are at risk of destruction but if we do that as well what role do museums and others have in collecting that material as well so it creates a whole born digital collecting problems that we're going to have to deal with or problems, challenges that we're going to have to deal with as well I don't know if there are any museums that have a lot of large collection of scans yet or artist created scans but it's something we're going to have to grapple with So my question was sort of touching upon copyright because as Mr Neal pointed out how he treaty scanned a little canon, he was able to reproduce it so my question is taking copyright laws into consideration how far away do you think is it to this type of technology being mainstream because I was having a discussion with a friend of mine around piracy so his argument was a product that you would get officially is ten times better than a pirated product and then he chose to close it off with well you wouldn't download a Ferrari would you so I guess taking copyright into account do you think this is a type of technology that would eventually become a mainstream sort of thing or do you see obstacles in that I certainly think it's going to become mainstream and as we said it's going to throw up some really interesting copyright issues which I'm not the right person to comment on because I simply don't, you know, not familiar with it enough but I think there's also something in that, you know, that the pirated copy that you create of an object in the museum is not likely to have that sort of same level of fidelity or detail richness as the bought Ferrari if that makes sense so you'd be able to get a somewhat crude copy of it but it wouldn't be as good as the real thing if that makes sense I think on that topic too just jumping in off the back of that like any kind of museum item has its own provenance as well and that's kind of the thing that gives it its value where it's been and how it was used in the past and the pirated version doesn't have that so it's the same as if you were buying something from an auction you could have a watch which for its own reasons may not be worth anything because it's owned that watch and maybe what the story around that was so I guess the piracy thing is still an issue but the original item is always going to have so much more value and I don't think that value is going to be devalued because it's been pirated Just a comment on the copyright thing because I'm in the room. Right, so buys it for Te Papa Essentially it's a big issue worldwide right at the moment in terms of copyright law just as copyright law is not keeping up with the times with digital, it's not keeping up with the times with 3D digital as well so it's something I've raised with the ministry advisers and they're going yeah we're looking into that we don't know either and I was hoping that Rick would be here to talk about that because I need to do a bit more swatting up about it there's a debate as to whether copyright actually exists at all in the 3D scanning so particularly in the New Zealand jurisdiction so it's not even whether is it piracy or copyright infringement if you use this stuff it's whether copyright actually exists so there's a whole if you're going to think about controlling yeah it's worrisome in some ways it's just that when push comes to shove you need a place to stand if you're going to try and control something if you haven't got a place to stand because the law isn't covering that area then there's no point trying to control it you may as well open it up but it's a really not fraught yet but as it gets more democratised and as people start doing more with 3D scans and I think you'll see maybe there'll be a law review we don't know but it's really open at the moment in terms of what the situation is there's no set rules like you know with an artwork it's death of the artist plus 50 years in New Zealand you don't know with 3D scans I have no idea and I do this every day I can just add I'm going to have just tracking back to that authenticity point of view so just an example the Smithsonian has their X3D site on it's their scanned mammoth that's available for download so we've got a 3D printed mammoth that we use in our teaching but I can point at it and say confidently that it's a mammoth and that's because it has come from the Smithsonian I don't just randomly go in and pull the eye it sort of looks like a dog and I'll get that it's because it's tracked through a museum that it actually gives it its value it's a car but is it a Ferrari I know it's a mammoth just that I net that out that's a really good point that's sort of authoritative source Hi I'm Susie Goss from Archives New Zealand Ki ora tātou, thank you my question comes from a curiosity about how society improving our digital literacy and digital competency and Daniel what you were just saying about provenance I guess is something that really comes into that like how do we make our decisions about what we trust digital competency and literacy as part of that so I was wondering what you all think about the organisations that you work with such as for the museums with the schools and maybe for the tertiary institutions maybe within your own institutions just about the level of digital competency in those organisations in general and who supports that and maybe just generally taking the temperature of how that's going are we up to speed with that for schools for example and our tertiary institutions or is it something that they still need a lot of support with alright I guess my experience with that is whenever I'm bringing up printed material or scanned material it's still quite a novelty to it so in that regard it's not just part of the meta it's still new so I don't know how competent we are then if we're still experiencing this as wow you can do that that's really cool so I guess the students that I'm working with are less competent in this space than you might anticipate I guess from the library we've got three 3D printers and we've been running a 3D printing service for maybe a year and a half maybe two years and when it started out those machines didn't get that much use I suppose but now they're being used pretty much every day close to every day and just having conversations with the kinds of people that come through it's kind of almost like happening in secret but you can see the digital competencies actually skyrocketing I've had students say eight or nine years old coming in during school holidays with their parents and the amount of learning that they do in that small period that they're there they've gone on to win like quite large like science fairs and things like that just through using our 3D printers as a means of being able to explore the ideas that they're doing research on as well there was there's an outreach program that came out of Victoria University which I was lucky enough to be involved with for like the first run through over a ten week period and that's been that's been surrounding bringing these 3D literacies into the classroom and being able to get familiar with 3D design how to actually draw up and create models of things and the work that I've seen come out of that and how that's going now it's just amazing there's a lot of schools now that do have 3D printers and are looking at incorporating this into part of their curriculum the teachers themselves are quite limited in the amount of knowledge that they have to be able to teach that but it's starting to really take off especially through those sorts of outreach programs maybe we perhaps we bookend it so it might be that I have that tail end of the group and as I start to see over the coming years I'll be getting these people who are more and more competent so as I send them along I think within organisations we like Tepapa, it's a wide range of digital literacy being exposed to things is the great first start to investigation and having the mahuki teams within the Tepapa environment has exposed a wide range of staff to new technologies new applications and new ways of thinking so that's been a really valuable thing across the organisation I think museums probably have a huge role to play in exposing people to new technologies the types of stuff Dave shows us it seems like that's a really valid thing for museums to do to democratise that type of engagement with new technologies that are coming and being able to prepare people early for the types of things that will be mainstream in 2 or 3 years time I don't think we do enough of that but it seems to be something that we should as part of our role Just to wrap us up on that topic when we all go back to our desks tomorrow where we're all filled with enthusiasm and uplift and optimism for our digital futures, what is from each of you one thing that you would recommend people look up read, experience online, download what is added on building up the incompetency or interest in this area Download 123D Catch today and start capturing your own models and play with it and you'll notice that it's much easier than you probably think it is I guess if you do download 123D Catch and you play with it and you really like it maybe go on and download 123D Design as well and then you can learn to just start making stuff from scratch and that's one of what I found one of the easiest to use design programmes it's a really good foot in the door and after you've downloaded 123D Catch and 123D Design then upload your model onto Sketchfab and have a look at the amazing content that's there and it's institutions and other users as well they have a museum section and there's this heaps of really amazing inspirational content that will just get you thinking of what the possibilities are and a very wide range of things that people do and organisations do and I guess the next step after that as well would be if you're starting to feel a little bit confident now after you've played with both of these kinds of softwares maybe download the Unity Game Engine as well then you've actually got a 3D environment where you can put things in and actually start creating interactions that people can use and then there's also plugins and toolkits for that which allow you to use AR and VR and it's not going to cost you any money at all so that's a pretty good start at being able to get involved with this I'm not sure I can answer that I think there's probably a role to create some sort of community around this and perhaps the NDF board can facilitate some sort of conversation during the year or conversations during the year to providing one of this room or others to actually, it seems like we'll learn more by trying to do that together maybe we can create some environments where we can explore some of the technologies you guys have been talking about but yeah try and bring a community together around this stuff because we're all as you can see in very early stages of learning I think from my perspective, have a look at some of the things that people are already starting to do with recreating environments recreating experiences that are new and novel and there's quite a few players in the glam space that are starting to do that now and start thinking about what you could do with the uniqueness of the collections that you have to manage on a day-to-day basis that is only possible because you have that data today All right, if you could please join me in thinking our panel for today