 Okay, to Community Matters, I'm Jay Fidel. It's a two o'clock block on a given Monday. You know, we talk about coronavirus, we talk about the things we need to do. And one of the combination things that we haven't done really, I don't care what they say in Washington, is we haven't had enough good testing, information gathering and tracing. And we need to take a scientific look at that. Because if you wanna reopen the economy, you gotta do everything possible first for public health. It's not hard to do it, but we have to do it smart. And Mike DeWerner, our chief scientist, taking a look at this and he's here to tell us the scientific view of testing and tracing. Not complicated, or is it, Mike? It's more complicated than you might hope, but it's basically straightforward. The fact is, if you want to be able to reopen businesses, you gotta have the kind of businesses where they can actually gather information that would let you trace contacts if necessary. And it's all possible. We've seen on the mainland, a lot of anecdotal evidence that beauty salons can stay open. If even if they've had a couple of cases where one of the hairdressers in the salon had COVID, but she was masked, her customers were masked and they were doing everything sanitation-wise very carefully and nobody got COVID except her. Then when they found out, of course, they had to sanitize the salon and keep her home quarantined. But I kind of like to start out with a snapshot of where we are right now in terms of disease progression. So on this chart, is the chart up the first chart? Yeah, there it is. Yeah, there we go. So back in February, when I first started tracking this, there's a magenta box here. So this scale vertically is a logarithmic scale. So every big division is another factor, 10 more. And you look at the world, US and Hawaii, we're all about doubling every four days or so. And so an exponential growth on this will look like a straight line. So we're all doubled every four days or so. Then starting in March, April, everybody started locking down and quarantining and restricting activity. That bent the curves over a bit. It didn't crush them, except Hawaii was able to crush its curve for a while, reduce the new cases to nearly zero. The rest of the world and the United States seem to have transitioned to a slower exponential, but they're still on an exponential growth. Having said that, we've already worldwide probably delayed hundreds of millions of cases of COVID-19. The gray line shows where we would have gone, it's literally off the chart. If the world hadn't been to lockdowns and quarantines, we would be off the chart right now in cases. USA right now looks like it's doubling every month or so. Hawaii is actually more about 38 day doubling time, but Hawaii's actually seen to bend up again. Since we started reopening, our curve going from being crushed has gone to actually a faster growth that looks like than the US as a whole. It's around a 30 day doubling. Now we still have a few cases, with only 1200 odd cases in Hawaii, we can still do contact tracing, we can still do all the testing. The state hasn't just thought how many cases per day is going to be acceptable. I'm estimating that with the current hospitalization rate, we could handle up to 600 cases a day, which sounds like a horrible lot and it is, but we could handle that many before we overwhelm the healthcare system with people in hospital and ICUs. And even at that rate, it would take us four and a half years to get to herd immunity. So we are a long way from done with this pandemic. We are a long way from done with this. Well, one question is if you try to suppress the curve and all, you know, you have to have certain tools and you have to have certain timing. You have to take certain steps, but it's that gray line at the center of your chart that really scares me. That's the line where you don't do anything and it just goes out of control. Well, yeah, so that's it. That one's a good news. I should have shown the whole graph. It's a good news, bad news story. If we'd done nothing, the pandemic would be over because we'd have millions of people dead and there'd be nobody left to infect. Okay, so all right. And the healthcare system would have collapsed as well. Yeah. So there's going to be a, this is my proposition to you, I'd like to know if it's true that testing and tracing is useful up to a point but then you get to a certain inflection point where testing and tracing can't help where the thing is more like the gray line is out of control and you might as well just sit back and enjoy it because no tools will work. Am I right about that? Well, if you don't do that, what you're stuck with is shutting down businesses and quarantining, which you see in California that I'm having to do, that I'm doing in Arizona, Texas, Florida, they have to shut down businesses and quarantines which is a very blunt tool. But if you don't do the testing and you don't do the tracing, that's all you got is shutdowns and lockdowns. And it really is best for the economy if you can do the testing, tracing, hire the contract tracers we need and do it right. There's some business- We may be there in some states. In the wild, yeah. There are 22 states which are spiking like crazy right now. It's the number expands every day. And so some of those states, as you say, the only thing you can do is lockdown. And it's too late. Am I right? Too late. Yeah, I think you're right. And then people in the mainland, the officials in some of the CDC officials and some of Trump's officials said, yeah, it's too late. We've lost control. We can't do anything in terms of tracing and testing. And I actually have a niece in St. Louis. She and her husband took their kids to literally not like a high school baseball tournament in Memphis. Now why they went, I don't know. They tried to mask, they tried to socialize the best they could at this tournament. Apparently it wasn't enough. Both parents came down with COVID and they have different symptoms but they're both sick with it. They will not test the kids because the kids aren't showing symptoms because there's a shortage of tests. The problem is half of the disease transmission it looks like comes from asymptomatic or pre-symptomatic carriers. So even though the kids aren't showing symptoms, they could still be sick, they could still be transmitting and most likely are if they've actually got the virus in their systems. And this lack of testing is just making it impossible. Now, there's no way to trace because you haven't tested them and you don't know then what the data really say. So you've got to collect the information. So another thought is that if we could go back back to the time when we first made efforts to control curve and all that and do an effective program on testing and tracing, we're going to suppress it even better than by the lockdown. Because we identified every case who would have isolated every case who would have stopped the infection or the rate of infection to below one, right? Yeah, like New Zealand has, you know. We could be like New Zealand and keep the curve crushed. Problem is really as long as the disease is anywhere in the world, nowhere in the world is really safe. It's only a plane right away and it takes one false negative test to bring it in again. That's the problem. We needed a global response. We needed the nations of the world with the real leadership which could have happened. We could have had real leadership in the United States saying, okay, China screwed up. Let us lead and show how to do this right and make the world a safe place for American commerce again. I mean, we could have done it. It would have only taken a couple of months but we didn't. When he got up and said anybody who wants a test can get a test, that wasn't true. It isn't true now. It isn't true now, like I say, Mike. And we didn't do tracing. I mean, you actually have to have testing to do tracing. Yeah. We didn't do tracing either. So we've lost the opportunity. Yeah, yeah. In Hawaii, I don't think we have lost the opportunity but it's gonna be really hard with the rest of the United States not doing anything. But we know that there's certain businesses that can open safely with precautions. Like on the next page, I'm gonna show an example of, like they say in hair salons and barber shops, masking has been shown to be very effective in that setting. So barber shop, I go to good kind. Oh, hey, they've got all these procedures that the governor has said you got to do. They sanitize, they do everything. Customers and employees all wear masks. You've got to have the masks to go in. And there's not a lot of chit chat because talking a lot increases the risk. So there's not a lot of banter between the customers and the barbers. They do temperature checks. Now, temperature checks aren't very specific but at least it is a screening. They ask the question if you've been on form travel or travel outside of Y in the last two weeks, that helps. They restrict access only the people actually get in their haircut and go in. And but most importantly, they log who's there when they came in and their name and phone number. That log lets, if they do have somebody who went to that barber shop or works in that shop, test positive, they can now do contact tracing. They know who to call, who to warn that they may have been exposed. And so that's critical. This is how to do that. If an operator, a barber in this barber shop develops a positive test, then you go back to that log and look at that log and see who did that barber have contact with. And now you're often running on a pretty valid tracing experience. Right, right, right, right. Now, so you've gathered the data. Now, there's some businesses where it's hard to do that like open a bar. I mean, our bar is really going to log the name and phone number of everybody that walks through the door and when they walk through the door. They might, but I haven't heard of that actually happening. So, but that's what it would take is being able to do that. Then some places like gyms, they try to do everything right, but a gym you're inherently breathing hard, it might just be impossible on that gym to be safe. But still they gather the data. And I'm amazed that the government, the Health Department was able to trace the two outbreaks at gyms here on Oahu to one person that went to both gyms. They able to identify, in a sense, patient zero for those two outbreaks. And that's because they could do contact tracing and have the data to do it. So businesses which can gather the data can possibly reopen. Businesses where it's somehow impossible to gather the data, I don't know. They may have to stay closed. And I say business, I mean, activities too. I mean, if you've got a big foot race like a Honolulu Marathon or if you've got some kind of big outdoor worship service, you still gotta be able to collect the data so that you can warn people if they happen to be exposed. Well, but if you have a large group, let's say the church service and 200 people show up, and then out of that church service, one person, you know, tests positive. Right. I suppose you can go back now you have, you're often running to do tracing on everybody who was there. Everybody who signed up that he was there. And that is doable, although it requires a significantly greater effort by the tracing department. Oh yeah. You have to phone up 200 people. Yeah, because, yeah, you have to phone up 200 people. And the next page kind of shows some numbers here that you have to have. The, it's a pretty labor intensive process. They estimate, the experts estimate that for the United States, we need 100,000 to 300,000 tracers. And we got like 30,000 right now. Hawaii's doing a bit better. We might need 400 or so. And we've got 147 that are still recruiting, which is good. So you need about 30 tracers for every 100,000 people in your state. And so that's about 400 or so for Hawaii. And that's a lot of work. It's a full-time job. Call it people, gotta be a diplomat. You gotta be super careful about privacy. You can't disclose the name of the person you think gave it to the person you're talking to. And, but if you, at least you can trace down to people who have been exposed. Right now, if you don't test though, you can only ask them to sell quarantine, which then you'll be quarantined a lot more people than maybe you had to. So, but if you want to do tracing, go ahead. I wanted to ask you what that conversation was like. Can we role play a conversation? Oh, you're going to be the caller. I've not had the training. So I can't really tell you how to, what the trainer. Rough idea, rough idea. And I'll be the person you want to get the data from. Go ahead. Oh, well, Aloha, Mr. Fidel. We have a reason to suspect you've probably been exposed to COVID-19, which is going to check up on you. See if you have symptoms. And then I would ask, you know, if you have a fever, do you cough? How do you feel? But you have to be, I'd have to be more diplomatic than I aim to do that. Okay, well, you know, I don't have COVID doctor, I do have a little temperature and I have a headache. Have, you know, and my respiratory, not really feeling good and I'm tired all the time, but it's just a little cold. I know it's just a little cold. Okay, thank you very much for the call. What do you do with that? Right, right. See, I haven't been trained. So I don't know what the next step would be to say for a while, maybe suggest you stay home for two weeks and just in case. It might just be the flu, but you want to get the flu to anybody either. Yeah, I'm just, well, I raised this because not everybody's going to cooperate. Right, not everybody's going to cooperate. And it's an implementation problem. You know, you have these theoretically, you can trace me out. You could identify me. Now, if there were a law, a constitutional law that allowed you to force me to a test, you know, that would be a step ahead and you could probably stop the lineage on my virus right there. Or at least I wouldn't be spreading any further. But if I said, no, take a walk. I don't want you in my life. Goodbye. Well, the government does have the right to enforce a quarantine in that case. And I've been tested. They can say, okay, you got to be quarantined for two weeks, unless you're willing to take the test. And they can arrest you and find you. You know, if you refuse to quarantine. Now we don't want to go there. As a contact tourist, you don't want to start with that. Have we gone there? I don't know. Well, I know we've rested tourists for breaking quarantine. So we find tourists for breaking quarantine. So it's possible that you could do that, that you could require people. But I don't think we've actually gone to somebody and said, we think you might have been exposed. Yeah. And we want you to get tested. If you don't get tested, we're going to arrest you. Yeah. That'd be really nice to have someone from the Department of Health on, you know, get Bruce Anderson on, or somebody like that to tell you what power they really wish, if we're seeing implementing to compel this. Because I haven't heard how many cases I think they're going to be willing to rank up to either per month or per day. You mean the tracers? Yeah, how many cases they expect the tracers will have to actually be able to trace per day? Well, you figure it's, if there's 170, what is it? 420 of them, they could do 420 cases, that's one a day. But you want it to handle a lot more than that. So just- Hope not. If we get a lot more than that, the healthcare system won't be able to handle it unless we can expand its capacity. Yeah. Yeah, it's right now about 10% of people with COVID end up in the hospital. And we only have like 800 beds for COVID patients. So yeah, if everybody's sick for 11 days or so, that means we could handle about 600 cases a day, you know, with 60 people then go into the hospital every day, and then hopefully 60 more coming out of the hospital, either dead or healthy every day. And that's, don't want to get there. No, but I can see people, you know, it's that old thing about I'm here from the government to help you. And most people, I don't know about all people, but most people would say, thank you, but leave me alone. Yeah, they say that until it's time for the stimulus check. Well, there's gotta be ways to incentivize them to participate and cooperate, that's the thing. Yeah, yeah, that's good. That's good, that's a good thought. I don't know what the state has in mind for that, how we would, what kind of incentives we could put in front of people that actually cooperate. And the carrots are usually better than sticks. But we've had this culture in certain parts of our society where we disparage government workers and talk about how bad they are, but you know, the government workers I've run into are mostly working very hard to be competent. I've always had a good relationship with the tax office of the postal service and with the business registration people, they're sincerely trying hard to work and do their jobs. I agree, I agree. Yeah, and so these people want to run the government down. It's an ideology of, well, we don't want to pay for any government, so let's not have a government, claim it's all terrible. So how do you recruit one of these 420? What are they gonna be? Well Hawaii, the state of Hawaii, the Department of Health has got a joint program with the University of Hawaii. If you have at least a bachelor's degree in something, they prefer healthcare field, but something, bachelor's degree. And if you have experience in a healthcare clinical setting, you can apply to be a contact tracer and go through a day and a half course, registered in part of the state's reserve medical core to do the tracing, and then they'll be able to call on you and they prefer people are willing to do it full-time as opposed to part-time. Because yeah, which means they're foreseeing that we're gonna have to ramp up to a lot more cases than we have to do that. And you talk to a lot of people around at work, they probably have a large pool they can pick from. But the reality is it's a telephone job. You don't have to go out in the street. You don't have to meet with people who are potentially virus carriers. So what you gotta do is pick up the phone. Right, and you gotta know if you do have the opportunity to do a video chat, be able to assess the person's appearance to see, well, are they lying about how well they're feeling, that kind of thing. Video chat, that would be better than a phone, wouldn't it? Better than a phone call. But you can also listen on a phone even for breathing that sounds off, railing or any kind of, if you have been in a healthcare setting, you might be better equipped to look for those symptoms. Or ask the questions about how they feel in the diplomatic way. Wouldn't you need a pretty good database program? So this individual would fill in the fields on a database and he would ask it a lot of questions and he'd put the data in that database. And that database could do some crunching, no? Oh yeah, I expect the state has that. If they don't, then it's kind of scary because it's gonna be how human being that has to do all that crunching. And that just adds into the bottleneck to the system. On the other hand, computers can, they're only as good as they're programming and somebody could have made a programming error or assumption in programming that needs to incorrect results and undo suspicion on one group versus another group. However, that can be caught. And everything has to be tailored for Hawaii. Hawaii is unique. And for example, there was an article in the paper this morning about Marshall Islands people from the Marshall Islands. They have a unique language barrier and they're poor. So they have very little opportunity to avoid crowding. And how do we help them? And so this is, there's a whole bunch of little situations that are unique to Hawaii. And so whatever program they get can't be a one-size-fits-all for mainland. It has to be tailored to our situation. Yeah, and I suppose you control kinds of sophisticated nuance the data in there. For example, when you were talking to this person, did this person sound like he had a cough? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you check a box for that. So, okay, so you have a lot of data about the conversation and the conversation is essentially scripted. You're asking, you know, in a friendly way you're getting around to certain critical information that you're gonna put in this, in the data fields. And now the data fields are crunched. What does it do? Is it create a kind of schematic of the people who have had contact with the people? Do they all go in a larger database where you're trying to connect up with other cases elsewhere? This is pretty complicated now. Yeah, yeah. Now, like I said, you have these networks, you have the network of say churches and a network of people who go to certain health clubs and network of people with certain sports activities. And if you can line up this person, say he got it at this health club, but he's also active in this paddling team. So now, you know, you've got to look at that now. And then the machine, the contact tracer may not know that but the machine might be able to link all those things together and say, here's where the networks are touching each other of people who are doing these activities. So this is where we need to go figure out how it could spread or how to prevent it could spread or prioritize the next set of contact tracing. That's what we do. Yeah, artificial intelligence sounds really important and the thing like this. So I go to church and I'm sitting next to, you could even divide the church up into quadrants or something. I'm sitting next to somebody who had it. So you're calling me and you're asking me, telling me I've been exposed. Then a few days later, you find that there's a health club outbreak. And then you find that I belong to a health club because you asked me that. And then you find out that I went to the health club a couple of days before the outbreak in the health club. And now you really gotta leave. It's like detective work, but it's done by the crunch. It's detective work, yeah. And so you're connecting, you gotta connect all these communities. And then you're gonna make a sort of a computer judgment about how close in time did this happen? What's the incubation period? It's all kinds of factors that go in. I would love to program something like that. Wouldn't you? I doubt it's very sophisticated right now. You and me, Mike, we could really make it sophisticated. Yeah, well, you know, like I say, there's a lot of physicists who are taking our network math experience and trying to apply it to this. It would definitely be. It's a hard little problem, an interesting problem and an important problem. And there's a lot of people who, I don't know a lot, but there's a cadre of people who could actually start tackling it that they haven't already tackled it for the state. So that would be, yeah, it's a hard important problem that's also very interesting and critical. Critical will solve. So yeah, and you're right, AI is perfect for crunching its huge numbers. So once you've done the contact tracing, really the next step is the testing. Now, this is the testing of somebody who is in the line of fire, who your AI is telling you, this person is high risk. This person might very well have caught it and somebody, maybe the machine, maybe you or a public health expert is gonna make a decision that this person is so close to the action, to the infection that we have to test him. Right, right, right. And so there's two kinds of tests. There's antibody tests, the tests where you've been exposed in the past of the disease. Then there's the DNA RNA test that says, do you have actual virus RNA in you? The antibody tests aren't so good for contact tracing because right now they have like a 10% false positive rate. So on average, a COVID-19 victim gives two to three other people the disease. So if you know 100 people, maybe you gave two of them the disease, but if you know 100 people and there's a 10% false positive rate, you have 10 other people, you're gonna falsely say have the disease if you just use the antibody test. And now you've got 10 people quarantined that don't need to be quarantined. So what you really need to do is to give everybody the PCR test, the one where it's up your nose, uncomfortable, although throat swabs are almost as effective and there may even be some evidence of salivary tests which you could do it for yourself at home, spit into a tube, send it to the lab. Are as effective in the first week that you have the disease. After the first week, you have to go deeper into the lungs or have people cough up sputum and test that. But in the first week after, that's when you gotta jump on the contact tracing to ride away because you do the least invasive possible test. But you can still do a good test. Now it takes a couple of days right now to get back your RNA, DNA tests, the PCR test. And that's a long time, but on the main line it's taking weeks for some people to get their tests back. That's just too long. I mean, you have no choice but to call it. It's gonna get longer though. You know, Arosia made these certain trays I think for the testing and the supply line got cut, something about China, the supply line got cut. So now it's gonna, you can't get it. And Hawaii is the victim of that. We can't get those testing trays and result is it's gonna take longer and maybe a long time. I wanna mention that there are other possibilities for testing. There are scientists all over the country working on trying to get a fast test. And the holdup is not in the science mic, but holdup is in the FDA. Because the FDA is besieged with these applications for approval. Yeah. And we don't want them to just rubber stamp them because some of the applications may be not based on good data. So the FDA has to be careful about it, but this problem we have with the FDA is starved and criticized instead of being supported and funded makes it just that much harder. And this bias we have against foreign testing, you know, somebody at Singapore might have a great test that they've got a lot of data on. They can say, this is ready for US approval. And the US may say, no, no, you're from Singapore. I don't know that's happened, but I can envision that happening. And we need to be uniting as a world to fight this disease. Is this an existential threat to our world economy? We need to actually get together as a world and treat it as a space alien coming to invade us because that's what it is. It's a new organism that's not us that wants to kill us. So, yeah. We should do sanctions against them. Against the coronaviruses? Yeah, obviously trying to undermine his election. So he should do sanctions. He probably will. But joke aside, let me ask you this question. So if one of these, you know, startup testing laboratories are in the state, they're in college campuses mostly. And they're all trying to make a fast test and maybe with sputum, you know? So if one of them prevails and gets approved and becomes available because there's manufacturing issues also, China would probably have to be the one manufacturing it. But let's assume we can get the tests out on the street like Trump promised us. He told us he swore to us back in February. And we all have tests now. And the tests are sort of like a pregnancy test where, you know, you can watch the chemical reaction visibly in your home, okay? And then you get an answer right there, five minutes. Yeah, I know how possible it is with a PCR test, but yeah, that would be cool if we could do it that way. If we could have it. As soon for this discussion, as soon for this discussion that you could do that. It's out there somewhere in the frontier. This would really expedite our whole effort at the test tracing phenomenon, I mean system, right? Wouldn't it? Well, it could, but then again, you have to then rely on those people doing the test at home to self-report accurately. I mean, they could say, oh, it's pink. Nah, I don't really have it. It's a lie. And throw it out or, oh, I'm not gonna tell anybody this. I don't wanna, I say, you gotta rely on, you still gotta rely on humans or compliance. You still probably have to rely on contact tracing to know who needs to really be tested and whether they're likely lying or not, you know, about their results. Yeah, yeah, sure. Nobody likes it. It's a privacy issue for them. We were talking before about trying to get information, incident to the test. So one way is you make them give you the test kit back and when they do, you make them give you the information, you make them fill out a form. And then it's been 50 bucks or something, I don't know. Yeah, well, it's probably gonna cost more like 100, but that's okay. Hopefully insurance will cover it. But the other way is you don't send them the test kit until they fill out the form. You wanna test kit, five minutes, no pain, no invasive, just fill out the form. And then you get the data in advance of the test. But assume for a minute that you could get them to give you the data, get them to take the test and that you would have the results of the test. You have to make sure you get the results. Would that help? Of course it would help. You could see which businesses maybe aren't doing the proper sanitation and proper controls of infection. And it'd give you easier in to say maybe which whole industries just aren't able to do it. And then you could target your shutdowns or target your slowdowns or come up with a way to get new policies and procedures in to make it possible for those kinds of enterprises to stay open, to stay functioning. Is right now, when you don't do testing and you don't do tracing, you have on the blunt instrument of shutting whole industries down. Yeah, right, you're right, it's so blunt. But if you find that I'm COVID in this test process and you made me fill out a form about what I've been doing in my life and who I've been with and what events I've visited and so forth, then as soon as that result is in, I mean, in five minutes, you're off onto the next trace. Right. And so that speeds up the process logarithmically. Yeah. And if you have AI with this networks of networks that is tracking, that you just put new data into telling you how to prioritize your next context on your tracing list. And I think what we really need to make sure this really works is if somebody tests positive for COVID make sure they can afford to be treated for it. Now, if people are afraid to go to the hospital because they're afraid to be bankrupted by the medical bills, they're not gonna cooperate. And... Oh, I hadn't even thought of that. Yeah. And if they don't wanna cooperate, then stay at home or worse yet, go to work. Yeah, yeah. They're gonna be spreading virus all over town. Yeah, yeah, we gotta, and in Hawaii our health insurance regime is better than average on the mainland. But we still have people that don't have insurance. And we still have people that are underinsured. And we have people that don't have any sick leave. There's people even in healthcare settings whose employers don't provide any paid time off. I mean, there's caregivers who are elderly people who simply, the company is employing them don't give them any paid time off. And it's like, if they get sick, their choice is don't get paid. Or risk spreading the disease. From a community point of view, that's really stupid. It is stupid. So let the guy go out there and spread virus. And you know he's got it. And you can make a good guess. He's not getting medical care and he's spreading the disease. Right, right, right, right. So we really need a whole ecosystem of health, care and support for people's health in this state, in this country, for all of us to be healthier. You know, if there's a whole group of people that are essential to our economy, that have no protections, we're all at risk. I mean, you like to think, oh yeah, I'm rich. I can survive this, you know. But the virus kills rich people too. Kills poor people more, but it does kill rich people. Viruses really care who you are. So that's, yeah. So who, if you add this package, I mean, these slides and this discussion with the plan, all the points we've talked about and how you, who would you take that to? Who would be in a position to implement that? Or is it multiple people? Well, yeah, of course you would take it to the governor and to the lieutenant governor and to the Ros Anderson, the people in charge of the health department. Nationally, of course, Fauci, I think would be on board with it. I mean, but then you've got to somehow convince the secretary of health and secretary of labor to do this, secretary of commerce to do this. Because we're talking about having to ensure everybody in this country that they can get treated for COVID and you've got an administration as hostile to universal health insurance, that makes it really hard. It makes it really, really hard to control this pandemic. So, and I hate to say it, I don't think that it's gonna be controlled under this current administration. But states can do things. States can still have some control within their borders, especially Hawaii, especially Alaska, both got big barriers to the mainland. We don't have people just driving over the border willy-nilly. States like Florida, California, there's long borders with other states. That's much harder, much harder. Well, all the more reason why Hawaii should focus on this, even with tourists coming, Hawaii can design protocols and systems to use testing and tracing to effectively stamp it out. And it's much better than that Plunt instrument approach about closing. But as you pointed out, we got to be able to do the testing. Yeah. And if there's a shortage of tests for whatever scientific or bureaucratic reason, then you can't really reopen the economy for tourists. Yeah. That's very bad. We got to insist on the testing being available. Yeah. Okay, Mike, we're out of time and I have to go over to Kanoi and get a haircut. All right, all right. Thank you, Mike. Great to talk to you. We'll do it again soon. Thank you. Stay safe. Bye-bye.