 Welcome back to PLOS Politics. The Federal Capital Territory, FCT High Court in Apo, Abuja, has sentenced a former federal lawmaker Farouk Lawan to seven years' imprisonment for taking bribes of $500,000 from businessman Femio Tedela, a billionaire oil magnate, while serving as the chairman of the defunct House of Representatives Adhok Committee investigating the fraud around the fall subsidy regime in 2012. Angela Otaluka, the trial judge, found the former legislator guilty of all three counts of bribery. Our subject of conversation is not really on the jailed lawmaker, but how long the trial process took, nine years. The court has dismissed Lawan's preliminary objection gains, a trial that spanned a whole of nine years. Joining us to discuss this is Mr. Samuel Apologon and Emeka Opara, both legal practitioners. Thank you very much for joining us, gentlemen. Thank you very much. All right, I'm going to start with Mr. Opara. Nine years to get a seven-year conviction. Tell us what you think about this. Is this, well, eventually justice was served and so it shouldn't be a problem? Well, I think we have a problem about that in Nigeria. It's something we really have to work on. It has even improved slightly from what it was before. Before, well, because of the nature of the case and the personality involved, we could be thinking of maybe about 14 years or thereabouts that the trial could have taken place. And within that period, the prosecution could have got tired and the case could have been frustrated. There has been an improvement in the last few years because many judges have started putting their feet down. But we need to do more. I believe in the course of this conversation, we should be able to compare solutions. We should be able to talk about what are the causes of such long-drawn trials? What causes it in our system? But to answer your question directly, I think it is a problem. It is not a good thing and it doesn't speak well of us. It doesn't ensure justice in Nigeria. Okay, so you can go ahead, before I move to Mr Apulogun, go ahead and share with us what do you think are the major causes of situations like this that a case, a trial can last for nine years in our system? Yeah, I think it has to do. Number one, the prosecution, the lawyers in Nigeria and the courts, the judges, each has learned to share from this second of scenario. Now, you find out that many prosecutions are done shortly. Before you come to the levels of the prosecution, there is the investigation and that is where the problem starts. In fact, if the judges, the courts, you play exactly by the rules, I think most criminals, about 90% of criminals, about 90% of defendants, that's what we call them now, no longer accused, about 90% of them will go free, despite the fact that they actually committed the offenses charged because the police and the other investigation agencies do not do their jobs well. They compromise, they do jobs shoddily and you see the attitude of Nigerians to public office, it's not my father's work, so you don't do it properly and all that. That is one. Now, when we move to the prosecution, the prosecution, in many instances, they are compromised. There is enormous pressure from defendants, especially high caliber defendants, to compromise every case that they are involved in. And it starts from the investigation, they get to the prosecution and you see a prosecution lawyer coming to ask for adjournment, to delay. But I can say something that the EFTC, they have been making more efforts in that direction, better than the police, better than some other agencies. Now, when you come to the defense, the defense lawyers, that's where the major problem is. Now, if you go overseas in many jurisdictions, you can see a lawyer handling more than two or three cases in one month or in two months. You come to meet a lawyer and he says my diary is full for the next six months. I have two, three cases. There are two, three trials I'm going to conduct. I won't be able to conduct this case properly if I take it from you. And you have to go to meet another lawyer. But here you find out that the lawyers, all the lawyers, a lawyer could have 30 trials or 20 trials in one month, in one month, and have more than 60 cases, 30 cases in one month with a lot of complex applications and all that that he has to go and do research on. And the result is that he will not do them properly. He will not do them properly. Now, if you go to the root of it, it's because legal services are not properly remunerated. And so the lawyers, what they do is that they get as many as possible to be able to break it. That is one of the causes of the problems we have. When they are properly remunerated, you will find out that many lawyers will start dropping some of the extra baggage. All right. Hold on, Mr. O'Para. All right, hold on. I want to bring in Samer Lakbo-Logung. He's also a legal practitioner. I'm sure that you've also experienced situations like this before. Maybe also have been a part of trials that have lasted a lot longer than they should. There is the administration of a criminal justice act that was expected to at least fix some of all these issues. Where would you say that attention needs to be put immediately in order for us to have trials last maximum of one year and it's concluded? Thank you very much. I'm very glad to be here. And then I'm grateful for that question. In fact, that was what I was going to speak to, who's sitting from the premise that was raised by my linear colleague. Firstly, this issue of delay in prosecution has been the bane of administration of criminal justice in Nigeria. It is one of the reasons why the laws seem to overlook or many criminals tend to escape the dragnet of the court of the law. And then some innocent persons suffer. So this is the reason why the ACJA, the administration of criminal justice act was promulgated. The administration of criminal justice act actually was a copy, so to speak, and the development on the Lagos State administration of criminal justice law. And you will notice that the administration of criminal justice law of Lagos State do came out in 2011, initial 2007 and thereafter was updated in 2011. But the ACJA came into force in 2015. And you will notice that this Lawan Farooq case started in 2012, if I'm not mistaken. And so as of then, as of when the Lawan Farooq case was commenced, the law that was in charge of administration of criminal justice in Nigeria was the, especially in Abuja and the northern part of Nigeria was the criminal procedural act. And so that was, and there were lacunas in those laws. And those were the things that defense lawyers would want to explore. Of course, if your case is bad, as it depends, counsel, one of the first thing you want to do is to buy time for your client. It is natural with human beings to do what they can do to either, to either avoid the doomsday or to postpone the doomsday. And that is what many trial lawyers have done and what many trial lawyers have tried to do. And that actually is why the criminal justice, the administrative criminal justice act was committed in 2015. And the major purpose for the commutation or for the enactment of the administrative criminal justice act, one of the main purposes, I mean to say, is to deliver speedy administration of criminal justice and also to ensure that the rights of individuals are not breached in the process of the administration of criminal justice. Now, there are many things, there are many innovative provisions of the ACJA. Now, this underscores the, the innovative provisions of the ACJA. There are many of them which would have further increased the speed of the conduct of these particular case if they judge, I mean the court and for that matter, the stakeholders have put those things into consideration. For example, if you notice that in 2000 and I think in 2017 or there about the Farouk Council, I think that was Chief Dr. Maya Kosekome, appealed over a procedural matter. He raised what you call a no case submission and then the judge dismissed each, then appealed to the court of appeal and that lasted for another, more than a year before the court of appeal directed at the case we brought back that Farouk Lawal had something to answer, had the case to answer, then the case was directed back to the high court. And I mean if the prosecution council was among, this is mine on what is the provision of the ACJA. One of the provision is that there would not be state of prosecution while an appeal, especially a procedural appeal has been entered in a criminal trial. That is to say, even if you are appealing to the court of appeal, we will continue with our case in the high court. So, in summary, Ms. Akbologo, I think in summary you are basically saying that it's a failure to implement the administration of criminal justice act on both sides. The argument that lawyers would bring is that laws don't operate in little space, but procedural laws operate in little space. Once the law of criminal justice law came into being, he said it had a procedure and these provisions should have been applied in as much as the procedure is for the honorable court. Okay, in 30 seconds, Meka Oparai, I want to have you wrap up. We're in 2021. We have seen these things play out over and over and over. You've said that it has actually improved. Is there a way to enforce the administration of criminal justice act? And that is from the CJN to the Minister of Justice to the Nigerian Bar Association and every player involved. Is there a way that the administration of criminal justice act can be enforced to ensure that we have shorter trials? Well, I think that the courts are making efforts now to enforce, but like I said, the major part of the problem we have in the enforcement is still the issue of our attitude on our problems, our attitude to things, our appearances, how the defense can, so when they come and for cleansing reasons, they ask for adjournment. Sometimes, most times, they are not ready. They explored every avenue to delay the matter. So this, and although the matter I mentioned about lawyers having too many matters on their plate, I'm not able to therefore conduct matters properly and efficiently. So this is where the NBA has to come in. The NBA has to, over the years, the NBA has lost, I would say, a lot of its relevance to making sure that lawyers do the right thing and that lawyers are properly re-generated. All right, Mr. Alparo. So the NBA has to do something about that seriously, to get out with the bench, the courts and so there has to be a review, a review. And actually some of the offenses that we see now, for example, this one now, a lot of people will say that seven years is very little for this kind of offense. It is the maximum that is in the book. So all those things ought to be reviewed. All right, Mr. Alparo, thank you very much. Thank you for the procedure. Okay. Obviously, there's a lot of people, or a lot of factors that need to come into play in order to have a better criminal justice system and, of course, a criminal justice process, generally for Nigeria. But it's a continued conversation. You've already spoken about the role the NBA needs to play and we hope that they are listening. We hope that Olumide Agpata also understands his relevance and relevance of his body at a time like this. Thank you very much, Emeka Oparo, for joining us and for sharing your time with us. And Mr. Samel Apologun, thank you also for, of course, the brief conversation that we had. I truly appreciate it. Okay. Mr. Apologun, I think you want to quickly say something? Quickly say something. Actually, the law, the Criminal Justice Act has also made provisions for the implementation of itself. Session 469 to Session 476 of the ACGA provides for what you call the ACGMC, that is the Admission of Criminal Justice Monitoring Committee. So there is a committee for monitoring the implementation of the provisions of the Admission of Criminal Justice Act. And I think if the government would strengthen the committee, make provisions, and they make them not just say pay for a tiger or two, but actually give power to the implementation of the same. I believe they can sit up. And really actually courts are already sitting up. I meant court sitting for the information for your time and I noticed that there have been increase in adherence to the Admission of Criminal Justice Act. However, I think the ACGMC should be strengthening to do its work. If the ACGMC was allowed to do its work, money of these things will be done in time. Okay. And of course, we hope that we also get to see more convictions and a smoother process. Thank you once again. Mr. Apologun, forward joining us. Looking forward to speaking with you again. All right. And thank you for staying with us. We'll take a short break and when we return, I'll be giving my take. There is a popular saying that justice delayed is justice denied. The years that go by in the wait for justice cost mostly by the slow grinding gears of the Nigerian criminal justice system, the lack of full implementation, like we just mentioned, of the Administration of Criminal Justice Act and other clogs in the wheel of justice from striking judiciary workers to avoidable adjoinments and to also poor investigation. Some may say a seven-year prison sentence after nine years of a trial is still better than nothing. But can you imagine how many victims of a corrupt system will not get to see perpetrators punished if we have to wait for nine years each time for a conviction? It is important that all these factors and numerous others are corrected if Nigeria is truly serious about fighting corruption and punishing corrupt government officials for their crimes. For too long, we have allowed these lapses to almost seem like a reward for corrupt practices, and the war against corruption cannot be won this way. Thank you very much for joining us on Plus Politics This Evening. I am Osao Gie of Bawan.