 viewers had sent me the video, so I watched it. And I followed Elliot in the past. And if I'm being honest, I think one of the guys that inspired me to start doing like talking head stuff and sharing experiences to help guys become better. He was one of them when I was watching his channel a number of years back. So when I kind of pivoted into talking about red pill awareness and theory, that was definitely a small catalyst. So thanks for that, Elliot. What I want to do is I want to start with clearing the air a little bit because actually, you know what, before we clear the air, why don't we talk about what's been going on lately because we haven't been on in about a week. So, Rola, do you want to start? Yeah, sure. Well, first off, still working on book four, as you might guess. Yesterday, I celebrated 22 years of marriage with my wife. So was I. Oh yeah, that was interesting, a lot of fun. And I got a little thing, got some things going on in my life right now. I've got one dog right now. And people who know me, I have gray hounds and I recondition gray hounds. I've got one of my older dogs just got osteosarcoma. So we're kind of dealing with that right now. And if you know anything about gray hounds, that is one of the things that they suffer from quite a bit. So this is like a really important kind of dog to us. So we're sort of pushing through that. So if I'm a little weird today, that's why. The other thing I was just getting into a little while ago was this idea of, there's these discussions. Like I like to give ideas of what I've been talking about throughout the week. I mean, just yesterday I did a show with Pat Campbell. That went really, really well. We did a variety of different topics. You can always, anybody wants to listen to that kind of stuff. You can get the link from my blog. But we were talking, or we've been talking about, I guess it's this new pill. It's like a male birth control pill. I don't know if you guys have heard of this, but it pretty much just lowers your testosterone so much that you don't, like, I guess you don't want to have sex because that's how they control the births for men as they decide that they're just going to chemically castrate you as the only solution. It's interesting to me because it doesn't seem like a, doesn't seem like a male form of birth control as much as it is sort of a chemical form of castration. And, you know, I thought this was funny because since we were talking about, we're going to probably get into big towel a little bit today too. I can remember a conversation that I had on a form a while back and it was, if there was a pill that existed that would allow you to sort of turn off your sexuality and turn off your sexual impulses so that you could be more quote unquote self-actualized and you could just, you know, put that part of you away. Would you take the pill? And I can remember like overwhelmingly the consensus was that, yes, in this big towel community that they would because they didn't want to be beholden to their sexuality. And it just kind of started a really interesting conversation. I thought maybe that might be something we talk about today, but that's basically what I'm doing right now. Ryan, go. Yeah. So podcast out there called American Winer gonna be on on Monday. Turns out the Normie Spears rather interested in hearing us run our mouth. So it'd be fairly fun. The only difficulty with that is there's gotta be something to whine about at the end. So that's gonna be kind of difficult because it kind of really goes against what we're doing here, but I'm sure I'll figure out some grievance. Also Red Pill Coach, one of the married Red Pill guys is going live in face in person as well, working with him gonna bring out a couple of videos. He's an awesome guy. He doesn't always look the part and he's a bit eccentric, but he's been through the meat grinder in back and he's come out a better man. So he's a great source of knowledge. I'm really looking forward to that. And that's it on my end. Elliot, you're up brother. I just been digging in to you guys stuff. I've been watching the red man group. I've been reading the rational mail. I'm really excited to have been exposed to what you guys are talking about. Like I said before we even began, feels like this stuff is just flowing through my blood. Just comes naturally to me and feels right and the excitement that I have for the fact that there is community being built around this is pretty cool to me. I've spent my entire life working with men, training men, being with men. I'm a man's man. I played football as a professional strong man. And now that I'm at that elder or I don't know if I call myself an elder yet, but mentor stage of life, it's great to be able to have not just the ability to empower and inspire and motivate men through YouTube videos, but now having a path for so many of the path that's young men that come across the work that we do through strength camp by helping them open their own gym, be entrepreneurs, be self-sufficient, being sovereign men. So I'm excited about life and excited about what's going on. Sorry, Donovan, you're up brother. Yeah, just again, just working on my daily show, DonovanChart.com, Monday through Thursday nights at seven Eastern for Pacific. I'm working on a couple of things. I'm working on a book. Hopefully I'll have that done by the time the 21 convention comes around. And I'm also working on a mobile app. And I hope to roll that out the middle of August. And the mobile app, hopefully I'll be able to transition my life shows to my mobile app. So that's what's going on on my end, men. Cool, Carl. Metaphysics and morality on the basis of, we've had a lot of discussion lately about how do you integrate your own value system and your own beliefs about the world into your red bill of awareness? And can you actually integrate that with the theory? So I wrote an essay to kind of outline, you can have that as part of your life but you can't integrate it into the theory because you can't introduce the subjective into the objective without making the objective wholly subjective. And I've also been working on the book for quite a bit. I'm trying to see if it's gonna be a stats based book or if it's going to be a more a philosophically oriented book. It looks very stat heavy right now. And then on the personal front, I've been trying to learn how to do power clings without knocking my front teeth out. Awesome, all right. So with what's been going on with me, I have been diligently trying to work on the book but I get distracted with summertime. And last night we have this epic cars and coffee after dark event in the GTA. It was the biggest show I've ever been to. If you followed me on Instagram, you saw like we had an $8 million Ferrari per to there. So I just put the book on the side burner. I went out and looked at fast cars and flame shooting out of tailpipes because that's one of the things that drives me nuts. So before we hop into the episode today on updating belief systems becoming about a version of yourself, I want to just ask everybody that's live now. We've got like 250 people live. Just smash the like button, let YouTube know that the shit's dope and you want other people to watch it. So just give it a thumbs up and we're gonna clear the air first because one of the things that came to our attention was when Elliot was talking about MGTOW and Red Pill. And I think we wanted to start with that before we move into how we've all updated our belief systems as we've kind of moved through life. Rolla, do you want to kind of like champion that topic? You mean as far as like what we've done as far as updating our belief systems? Is that that way you want to start with? Well, before we get in the beliefs, like I want to clear the air on what MGTOW is versus Red Pill, it was a broadcast that Elliot was talking about and he was kind of getting open to it. I think it was his friend, Sean Hopper, who is a musician that introduced our work to him. And then he really got into it from there and I think you saw the video, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I'll tell you, I'm happy to have this kind of this introduction here because this really helps guys who are just finding the Red Pill community at this stage. There's so much confusion I think with regards to what the term Red Pill actually means. We've come to a point, I think, that really for the last 10, maybe 12 years, we've been using this term Red Pill for so much. Like we always talk about how Cassie J has used it to title her documentary for MRAs. We hear Red Pill used as a verb for the alt-right or for whatever ideology happens to be ideology du jour. I happen to be this political ideology or this ideological stripe and therefore I am Red Pill. And so they keep using this term as if it is some sort of verification or legitimizing that particular ideology. And I've said this a million times and I'm just gonna repeat it again here is that to me, the Red Pill has always been about intersexual dynamics. It's always been about how men and women interact with each other and the truth of scientifically, evolutionarily, just personally, socially. People know that when I write and the stuff that I have been doing for quite some time now, I don't flow over into politics or religion or any kind of ideological stripe per se unless it crosses over into intersexual dynamics. And so I try to keep all of what I talk about just about that. So it's just about us talking about men and women, whether that's if that's social, fine, that's great. That's the social side of that too. If it's a religious side, great, fine, that's okay too. But we keep turning, I think a lot, there's a lot of outside agencies that want to turn the Red Pill into something else. And we're also starting to see the mainstream media pick up on the Red Pill community and they want to associate that with the alt-right or they wanna associate it with something that is crazy. And the mainstream media really wants to have that kind of indignation. They wanna have that, they want the frothing at the mouth kind of crazy guys. And if you don't give that to them, they'll find somebody else who calls themselves Red Pill who's frothing at the mouth that they can use as an easy, hateable enemy that, because remember we're talking about just soundbite, soundbite information, soundbite, coming basically just trying to turn whatever is Red Pill into the villain so that it's an easily hateable villain. But when I'm watching other people who are seeing this for the first time or coming in from the outside, and you can correct me if I'm wrong here, Elliot, but it seems like they have this idea, this preconception of what Red Pill is or this preconception of what pick up artistry is or this preconception of what Migtow is. And I think that in putting that out there there's a lot of misconceptions that goes along with that. So there's like when I was watching Elliot's video on Migtow, I think that he got a lot right, but I think he got a lot wrong. And I think really that's just simply because he wasn't introduced to it by us, by the Red Pill community as it was, it's sort of like an outsider looking in. And I really wanted to take this opportunity to help the people who are doing that right now, who might be finding this community for the first time and let them know what it's really about and not what the mainstream media wants to make it about, not what critics wanna make it about, not what people say, oh, well, those Red Pill guys, they're misogynist or it's truthful anger, right? It's these guys are just angry and they're bitter and they're burned and they're talking about this because they just can't get over it kind of thing. And I'll tell you right now that there's nothing further from the truth than that. But I think that when we're mixing terms right now, I mean, we've got pick up artistry, we've got PUA, we've got MRAs, we've got MGTOWs, we've got incels, we've got, I mean, there's just so many different factions right now and what we call the Manusphere at this stage. And just, I think that right now we sort of just need to take this opportunity to just say, look, you know, the Red Pill is a Red Pill, MGTOW is MGTOW. Now there's a lot of crossover, a lot of the stuff that we were talking about with Turflinging Monkey when we did that show. A lot of people already know what, I think what the consensus is for the Red Man group as to what MGTOW is and what we agree with and what we don't. But I'm not sure that maybe Elliot really understands that or really realizes as a newcomer, as seeing this with fresh eyes. And so I just kind of wanted to start here by saying, you know, what is, you know, where are those points where we agree with MGTOW and where are those points where we don't? And I think I can start the conversation off by saying that there's a lot of stuff that MGTOW and Red Pill, I think you have to sort of be Red Pill to be MGTOW in the first place. You have to have that basis of truth. You have to have that understanding of intersexual dynamics and accept that. Now, where we differ with MGTOW I think is in our solutions and in what we want to do with that information. So we've got this, we've got this knowledge base of intersexual dynamics that really has been building up since, gosh, I don't know, since probably 2002 as far as I'm concerned. So we've got a long history here, but it's what do we do with that information? How do we build and how do we go from there? And that's where I think that MGTOW kind of just decides to isolate themselves and tries to basically check out of the whole system whereas guys from the Red Pill community want to work within that system. And honestly, when I'm listening to Elliot's stuff, I'm thinking he's really more Red Pill than he is MGTOW. I just don't think that he knows what the definitions are, what the belief sets are for those two. All right, cool. So before we throw it off to Elliot, I know Donovan wanted to chime in on that, but Elliot, when you go, if you can kind of like fill us in as to how, like you've only really been exposed to this very recently, but if you can update us to what you've learned maybe by consuming a Red Man group episode or I think you said you read the rational mail, maybe let us know where you went with that. But Donovan, go ahead, you said you wanted to top up on Role. Yeah, just Role basically said everything that he always steals my thunder. But yeah, what I wanted to add is that the reason why the mainstream media talks shit about this hemisphere and the Red Pill specifically, this particular faction is because what we say works, what we say is the truth. I remember just first sports reference years ago, I forget who was on the mound, Alex Rodriguez was at bat. There was a pitch thrown at his head and A-Rod takes exception, like what the fuck you throwing at my head for? And Jason Veritec, who was the catcher said, listen, we don't throw it guys, you hit 240, right? So in other words, he's not a threat. So they're not gonna try to throw the ball at his head, but a guy like Barry Bonds, yeah, they're gonna throw to him because he's hitting 73 bombs and hitting 360, getting walked 216 times back in 2001 because he is a threat. We are, what we represent is the combination. For years, men, we've had the wool pulled over our eyes. If we were just out here talking a bunch of nonsense about this, that and the other and you know, whatever, if what we said didn't make sense, we wouldn't catch heat. This is why meaghtows don't really catch heat or low level meaghtows rather don't catch heat because what they're endorsing that particular lifestyle that I'm talking about low level meaghtows is, okay, we're gonna check out of the sexual marketplace. Well, nobody's worried about that because girls weren't fucking y'all in the first place. So if guys who weren't getting laid in the first place decide to check out of the sexual marketplace, okay, big fucking deal. We weren't messing with you guys anyway, but guys like us, when high value guys decide, hey, listen, we're gonna tell guys how to become the men that women are attracted to, women in the media, they characterize this as sexual manipulation, you know, et cetera, et cetera, when women have been manipulating men for eons. And again, the difference between migthow and the red pill, there's a lot of crossover, but just like Rollo said, it is the solutions that separate us. We decide, hey, listen, instead of just checking out, we're going to evolve. We're going to, we're gonna play the hand that we're dealt and low level meaghtows, you know, would sooner just check out of the sexual marketplace, which to me, I have absolutely zero problem with that. I understand. But when low level meaghtows act like they're superior for making the choice to not pursue relationships with actual women, that's when I take exception. And that's one of the major differences between the meaghtow and the red pill group. All right, Elliot, Phyllis said, have you been feeling about meaghtow versus red pill and what you've learned? Well, like I said earlier, as far as red pill is concerned, I think I was born with a red pill in my mouth in many ways, my father's from the jungle. He grew up in Belize and he is just awful because he wasn't fucked with in society. He grew up with like bare feet climbing trees and being primordial man and having that kind of attitude in my house, bred a lot of red pill ideology. So very early on, I knew I was going to be an entrepreneur. I'm very rebellious of authority, but when it shows up in terms of how I serve the world, like with regard to health and things of this nature, not necessarily trusting the establishment that feeds us medication and polluted foods, all these things that are kind of, I don't wanna say red pill, I can't define red pill, but in my experience up until this point, the attitude associated with anti-establishment, thinking for yourself, sovereign man, being the strongest version of yourself kind of just made sense. I was interviewed by another, many years ago, maybe about five years ago, I was interviewed by a guy who had a red pill channel and he positioned it very much like Neo and the Matrix. So you're either gonna wake up to what's going on and his was very much health related or you're just gonna continue to be a sheep. And so I embraced that in 2008 when Ron Paul was running for president, I was introduced to libertarianism and anarchism and these ideas that I don't wanna get, again, I don't wanna pin that to red pill and then give it a bad name, but kind of is along the same lines. Now, I never really dealt too much in terms of intersexual dynamics because I married my high school sweetheart and I really wasn't in the sexual market. Like many of you guys, I never dated, it just kind of went over my head. I got married early and went boss of wall being an entrepreneur and raising a family and didn't think too much about it until I started getting questions from my subscribers about MGTOW and so when I first heard the term men going their own way, it struck a chord. The term itself made sense to me because I can see how quickly we get swept up and brainwashed, particularly from a very young age by how Rallo calls it the feminine agenda. And then when that name was given to it after a little bit more research, so when I made my video I really wasn't aware of what you guys were doing. I just went on Google and looked up MGTOW and I was like, men going their own way, men creating separation between themselves and women. You watched the video and I was pretty excited about the concept. Digging deeper and seeing where you guys are coming from, I get it that Red Pill is more of a broad philosophy and makes much more sense, makes more sense that way to me. What you guys are doing is a subsection meaning as Rallo mentioned, intersexual dynamics, which is brand new to me and I got a pussy right here showing up. And then- You got pussy just throwing itself at you. All over, man. Yeah, I've got a lot of experience with pussy all over the place. So there's that. So, and then if I were just to, from what I'm picking up and understanding the intersexual dynamics associated with Red Pill as a broad philosophy. And then you got Migtow, which is, as you guys are discussing, a movement where anytime there's focus on contrast, good or bad, evil and God, man and women, and we focus on that contrast and create separation, it becomes pathological. And so rather than, and if you watched my video, I was really all about integration. I was like, yeah, of course you gotta create separation so that you can know yourself so that when you integrate there makes more sense from what I'm starting to gather that there's a faction that is all about separation for separation's sake. And then there's that bad guy, good guy sort of deal and that never works for anybody. Cool, Ryan, you wanted to contribute on that. Yeah, it was a small thing there. You do, you did what a lot of people tend to do and they called it an ideology, which I take a little bit of an issue with. I don't, like I get why because most things in life we see as an ideology, but the problem with that is ideology assumes this is what you should do. And if you wanna go back to the earliest time I can find people talking about the Red Bull was a guy called Keone Galt from Hawaiian Libertarian. And funnily enough, it was right after a fight that they had with a bunch of MGTOWs and MRAs back when it was a pickup community. And all he said was it's taking the same attitude of don't listen to what she says, watch what she does for the idea of getting what her true motivations are and just applying it generally. So the term that I think Rollo coined this one, he can correct me if I'm wrong, was a praxeology, like auto mechanics. The idea is it's not a philosophy because then a philosophy talks about the greater meaning of things. I don't think we're that smart noble and I don't have a tweed jacket with elbow pads. So I ain't gonna part of that. But the idea there is it's like auto mechanics. Oh, how do you, what's the best way to get your engine running? Well, you just do this, you do this, you do this. It's not a why type of thing. It's a how thing. And then whatever meaning people want to ascribe to that, that's on them. Like every man should be his own, like you said, his own self-actualized man. And maybe some guy wants to run for politics. Maybe somebody just wants to go to car shows and build himself a nice business or be the strength coach that brings men into other things. But that's like, that's your path. It's not an RP, red pill path. So I know it's a small, like nitpicking nuance, but I think it's important because even if you look at the panel, everybody here has a wide array of interests and goals in life. And it's only when it works. I can say I make a point to, and it took me a long time to really find the right term for it. But the red pill to me anyways, when it comes to intersexual dynamics has always been about praxeology. And what that is is that's the study of human behavior from the position that human behavior has meaning or has purpose or there's some reason that you're behaving in such a way, like there's a latent purpose to the behavior that you are performing. So a praxeology is not necessarily just limited to intersexual dynamics. It can be about pretty much any kind of human behavior but the way that the red pill analyzes things. And I was trying to refer to the red pill as sort of a loose science. And the reason I think in the last probably a year and a half or so I've really tried to hammer that home because I see a lot of people wanting to turn it into an ideology. There's like I was saying before when I was sort of giving the introduction here is that there's a guys in the alt-right, there's a guys with an ideological bent who want to claim that as their brand. They want to see, because they see red pill as something that the mainstream media is picking up on and so they want to grab that and they want to appropriate that and use it for whatever ideological bent that they have. And that's why I keep trying to turn the conversation back to the fact that it is as objectivist as possible as we can make it. Now I understand that everybody's going to have their own personal biases. Everyone is always going to see the world through the lens that they have but I have always been one to sort of encourage guys to see the world around them through that objectivist, red pill, praxeological lens so that when they're looking around they see things going on in society, they can go, okay, I understand why she's doing that or the women's march that's going on. I understand why these women are doing that and has nothing to do with sexual harassment and has everything to do with power. And why? Well, I'm seeing that through a red pill lens. I'm seeing that through my knowledge of what I know intersexual behavior is really about and I can apply that and sort of suss out the meaning for things that I see going on around us. So I'm glad you brought that up, Ryan, because I really don't want it to get into this. I mean, there's a lot of guys who want to say, well, red pill, it's always been about Christianity or it's always been about morals and we see a lot of this in the traditional conservative movement that's really coming up. Yeah, exactly. It's like the only, well, and then what happens is then it's like, you get to this conversation where it's like, okay, you know all this stuff, now you have to use it in the right way. And it's like getting superpowers, but you have to use your superpowers for good. And if you don't use it for good as they define it, then you're against Western society or you're part of the problem if you don't do that. So I always want to keep red pill in as like I said, an objectivist, praxeological sense as is possible to do. Go ahead, Carl. Yeah, I wanted that because exactly what you're talking about now is what I wrote about this week in the essay because what the red pill is, it's a epistemology more or less. It's building a theory based on what you can observe and what you can prove. But when you start to look into, okay, we need to make it Christian or we need to make it into right wing or left wing, then you're moving into a mixture of ethics and metaphysics. And those two things are fundamentally personal. We have external ethics system, we have the law, we have the 10 commandments, et cetera, but these are just codified principles to live by to govern human interaction. So once you try to make something into, now you know A, so you have to do B, then you've taken away someone's freedom to decide their own direction in life because you're telling them what their beliefs and what their virtue should be. I didn't hear, is there anybody else here? I was gonna say, Rich, was there something that you wanted to talk about? I'm not sure if you're more familiar than if we... Yeah, real quick, a lot of people like to characterize the red pill as an opinion. This is not an opinion. A lot of guys may say, in my opinion, for me that's code for I'm not steadfast in my belief and I'm trying to create a backdoor in case somebody proves me wrong. No, the red language, the red pill is rooted in fact, it's rooted in anecdotes and that's all there is to it. A lot of people like to say, well, I don't speak in subjective truths. No, the red pill is the truth. Cool, so I wanna throw this off to Elliot because we brought him on as a guy to kinda talk about his experiences and one thing I've noticed about what you've done, Elliot, with your channel and your life was you've updated your beliefs a number of times. The topic of today's video is basically broadcasting on how we've updated our belief systems to become better versions of ourselves. I've talked about it a lot in my channel so I don't wanna dominate this broadcast. I kinda wanna have you talk about your experience so if you could give the viewers right now how you've done that and why you've done that throughout your life. Cause I mean, you went through this period where it's like you're broadcasting daily, then you just shut down on YouTube yourself, you pulled out of it. You've gone from being a strong man to now being a bodybuilder. So how does that work for you, man? Like why have you done that? Man, I think that's in our nature. I think we've been conditioned out of being that type of courageous with regard to our belief systems. I remember hearing a great quote from Ralph Waldo Emerson where he says that a foolish consistency, foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of knaves and fools. And basically when I read him say that he was giving me permission to trust my intuition, trust my gut and not have to rely always on the conditioning of the mind that says you must be who you've always been and you must hold on to what I value in you in the way you be, act, think and so on and so forth. So as far as updating beliefs is concerned, it really is a matter of being courageous enough to explore a myriad of beliefs, not necessarily attach yourself to any one of them, but like a artist, try different colors, try different things, see what feels right and when that feels right, be okay with the fact that it might not feel right next week. Love it. Be fully about it now. And that's another Emerson quote where he says something to be effective. If you're about something now, I'm misquoting it, you're about something now be 100% about it, be about it, but don't feel like tomorrow if you're not about it 100% that there's anything wrong. Yeah, and that's how we grow as men. And I talk about chasing excellence and mastery has no finish line. It's a lifelong journey. You're always updating your beliefs. Like the person that we are in high school versus 20s versus 30s and 40s, you keep evolving. And if you're not evolving as a man to become better to become stronger, you're basically letting yourself down. I mean, you're not pursuing excellence. You're just staying stale. You're either growing or dying. Rola, you wanted to... Yeah, I got, I got, I'm glad you said that this is why I wanted to have Elliot on here. So I have this conversation right here because what he's saying here is sort of proving my point that I've always said and anybody who knows my background in psychology can have a background in personality studies. And one thing that that teaches you is that personality is not static. It is not something that you're set with. It is not something that you're just born into. I constantly get these guys to say, I'm an introvert. How do I, you know, how do I, I'm doomed. How can I possibly get a girlfriend because I'm so shy and I'm so introverted? And I'm like, dude, that's not set. That's not something that you can't change. And it's one of the reasons I lock horns with these sons of bitches who are constantly talking about, you know, was it Myers-Briggs? Oh yeah, you're an ENTI GAF, whatever the hell it is that, you know, they want to pigeonhole you. They want to put you into that particular box. And the reason that they do this, and Robert Green talks about this in 48 Laws of Power, and I think it's law number 17, but it's sort of like, it's a law about breaking the mold. It's about being somebody that's not expected of you because human beings want to see this consistency. They want to see a consistency in your behavior. They want to see this, because it makes you predictable. And that sense of consistency and regularity and that regimen is something that gives them control over you because if they know what they can expect from your behavior, they know how to control you. They know how to put you into that box. And that's why we have like, that's why astrology is such a big thing. It's like, well, what's your sign? It's so that they can put you in that box and they can better understand you. And I keep telling these guys, it's like, you know, if personality were static, if you were like born with the personality or maybe you developed it and you were stuck with that one personality for the rest of your life, guys coming back from deployment would not get PTSD. Okay, that is something, that is an experience, a life trauma. And unfortunately, it's a traumatic experience. Usually that changes our personalities, but it's something that will alter, fundamentally alter who you are. So if you ask these guys who come back with PTSD, you know, are you the same person that you were before? Of course they're gonna say, you can see that, but we're willing to believe that, but we're not willing to believe that it's something that we have control over. It's something that we can actually change. And a lot of the guys who come to the Red Pill community who hit me up and say, man, I had a date set. I was gonna commit suicide. I was gonna kill myself. I read your book and it changed my life and I'm a different person because of it. Yeah, that's a very traumatic experience that the guy had to go through, but the effect is the same. The guy changed his personality. Now, how great would it be if you could see that stuff and you could really be a more, like a better analyst of your own, have more introspect, have more analysis of your life. And then you could say, you know what? I need to change that. Or you know what? I need to get myself out there. I work with guys. I do counseling for guys who've been in marriages for like 20 some odd years and they find themselves divorced and they think that they can't change. This is just who I am. I'll never do anything in the sexual marketplace. And then little by little, work them into it and we keep, you know, work with these guys and they fundamentally change who they are from. And I've seen the change happen within, you know, six months to a year where these guys are completely fundamentally different people as a result of their experiences. I'm glad you said that. Yeah, one of the things I love about that, you know, people have told me since I've kind of gone down this, you know, this journey that I've done. And I mean, if you've watched my channel for a while, there's like 500 videos and there was a point a couple of years ago where I pivoted and it's obvious. There's kind of like a gray area and people that see me now, they're like rich, you've changed, you know, is everything okay? Or you know, like what you've been up to sort of thing, like I've seen your stuff and what you've been talking about. It's like, yeah, I've changed. Of course I've changed, you know, I've become better or I've learned from my past experiences, I've learned from mistakes because that's what you need to do as a man to take ownership in your life. That's part of your burden of performance. I got a cool question here that I wanna pose to the panel. It came from one of my patrons. It's can one's belief system overshadow their identity for, sorry, their identity so much that they become a caricature of themselves? Anybody can hit it on that? Yeah, listen, I'll go first. One of the, the red pill, taking the red pill has many stages as does a lot of things. And a lot of people like to say, well, you're acting like you're a quote red pill guy, you're red pill and now you think you're this or that. Well, I'll be honest with you. It kind of starts off that way. You kind of have to fake it until you make it. But when you, when you practice a, I guess what Rola calls it a praxeology for long enough, when you internalize this stuff long enough, the red pill is no longer who you strive to be. It's who you are. I get calls all the time on my show where guys say, listen, I've consumed red pill content for six months or a year and girl said X and I automatically responded with Y and I didn't even think about it. So the answer to that question is definitely no, it starts off that way and you certainly, it certainly takes practice, but after a while, just like anything else, eventually it becomes, it becomes who you are. It becomes second nature. Well, I wanted to add, because Rich's question is interesting, they finished a bunch of research on cults a while back and one of the interesting things is when people have been members of destructive cults in particular, their personality slowly sanded away and replaced with a cult appropriate personality. And one of the funnier stories I remember reading was a couple who escaped from, let's say a large church that was protested vigorously by anonymous a while back and they escaped from the compound and they've been married for 20 years and the wife said, I'm going to go make some spaghetti bonis and your husband went, you know how to cook. They've been married for 20 years and he had no idea that she knew how to cook because that was just wasn't part of their personality within the cult. And it's very interesting when you see these people who go, who escaped from these cults and they develop completely new personalities distinct from what they used to be before entering the cult, but also distinct from their cult personality. Because I think we absorb things that happened to us through life and then gradually we integrate that into a whole and it's kind of reality giving you feedback on your interactions with it. And then you, let's say you're malleable, you change with it. Elliot, you wanted to top up on that? You're muted still. Elliot, you're still muted, brother. No, still muted. How's that? There you go. There we go. Well, I think to some degree we're always doing that anyway. We all have a belief system, whether we want to admit it or not, there's a subject of reality of the fact that we can't be here without that. I don't think that we can really operate without that. So we're always kind of in a way crafting an identity or a character based on the belief system that we have. What I think is fascinating and beautiful about the conversation that we're having is that you can update that at any moment. You can be so objective about your belief system, hopefully be so objective about your belief system that you can just change it and then your identity changes. I don't know, to me that seems practical. And maybe I'm not seeing this properly, but if I want a different result in my life with the knowledge that my belief system is what keeps me where I am, I can change it and so can you. 100%, man, why not? 100%. Ryan, you wanted to pose a question to Elliot, right? Yeah, I'll just take quick 30 seconds first then answer this one if you don't mind, because I find the whole question fascinating. Do you guys ever hear about that philosophical thing, the ship of Pheasius? No. You take a boat and then you remove a plank from it, replace it with a different one. It's still the same boat. And then you do it with the second plank and then at what point, replacing the pieces of wood from the original boat, is it no longer the original boat? And it's that question we've been asking for 4,000 years now. I mean, every seven years or so, all the cells in our body have completely switched out. So we are that. I don't, I like the question. I don't like how it's framed because you're talking about do our belief systems change? Does it change who we are? I don't think we're really gonna know who we are. I mean, as guys, we have the benefit of we are what we do. So for example, 10 years ago, I was a sailor tip of the spear, 205 pounds, work hard, play hard. Two years ago, I'm that white collar guy doing the job that everybody complains is soul crushing, but you know, we got the red pill thing here. You guys had stuff you did. You were the happily married man at one point before you became smart. But the point is like, at no point is this stuff not you. I think the only time when you're not you is when you're codependent, which unfortunately is happening a lot more and more with guys where they, their only sense of identity is in what they can do for their spouse, which usually ends up with a pain in the ass. Yeah, that's a codependence of beta thirst is a real problem for men. Did you wanna ask Elliot about CT Fletcher and the Hodgshwind still? Yeah, so I've kind of been in your, I've watched your space for a while, same as a lot of these guys here. I've always wondered. So I noticed your story was kind of similar to CT Fletcher's minus the amazing amount of swearing. And I think his was he ripped his heart and you ripped your bicep. So good on you for dodging that bullet. I was just curious about the guys in the space experience you had with like either Hodgshwind, CT Fletcher and all those type of guys. I just find it very fascinating. I really don't. And to be completely honest, I kind of live in my own little bubble here in Florida. You know, a lot of those guys they're traveling back and forth or live in California doing collaborations. So for many years, raising children and building my business, it was just more practical for me to stand in front of the camera and be in my home base and do my thing. So short answer, no, I really haven't done anything with them. Cool, Rolo, you wanted to go? You're muted. Yeah, yeah, I got it now. No, I was just gonna say is this sort of segways very nicely into a question that I had for Elliot. I see a lot of the stuff that you're doing, like there's a trend that I think has really come into its own in the last maybe two years, maybe three years. And that is sort of the Tony Robbins power of positivity. Jordan Peterson does this. RSD has sort of shifted from being about pickup artistry to being more about for lack of a better term, giving guys direction. Now, whether that direction is something that I think is useful or something I think is gonna benefit them in the long term is different, but what I see is, I see a lot of the stuff that you're doing, which is this really kind of pep rally kind of stuff. Do you, and I don't know how long you've been doing this, maybe you can let me know what you think, but have you seen a more of like a hunger or a thirst for direction from guys more these days, as opposed to like when you got started in this? Because I'm seeing the rise in popularity of guys like Tony Robbins, or even like I said, RSD, these guys who kind of shift into this brokerage, I guess, of giving these otherwise, you know, life-wise, purposeless, rudder-less guys some sort of direction or some sort of regimen. Like when we talk about Jordan Peterson, you know, he's got 12 rules for life and it's like this list or this formula for guys to like sort of live some sort of better life, but it seems to me like the only reason that these guys are as popular as they are today is because so many dudes are so purposeless or they're so aimless right now. And I'm just wondering, are you seeing this more than when you like started out? No, I saw it right from the beginning. As soon as I became a strength coach and started training young men, they would, it's fascinating to watch them grow physically, you know, a little scrawny kid comes in, low self-esteem hunched over a couple of weeks later, he's walking taller, he's shaking your hand a little firmer and looking you in your eye. But then the questions start coming out when the trust is there with a mentor, with an older man. And so what do I do about my girlfriend dumping me? What do I do about my parents wanting me to do this and I wanna do that? And that was happening in my gym, way before YouTube was ever a thing. And I loved it, I enjoyed it. I feel like that was just something like the paternal instinct in me to wanna see these young men do well because I'm training them in their body, but then also outside in the gym. So it was just like, it wasn't like I was looking out there for what's going on in the world. It was like the world came to me and was like, hey, Elliot, we need you. And, or we have questions for you because that's really what it was. We've got these questions for you. And when I started making YouTube videos, it was all about training, but then again, here it came. I make a video about squatting and here are questions, Elliot. I'm so distraught over this tragic or this confusion or all these things that stem from having no purpose or not the crisis that men are in. So it's showing up there. So I don't know if that answers your question fully, but it's kind of like that's what's happening on the planet right now. And anybody who's being asked to step up, like you guys to step up to provide a platform, to provide resources, to provide inspiration, provide guidance for young men. It's proper, it's supposed to happen because it's a backlash of the fact that they don't have any fathers. We don't have any fathers any longer. There's no fathers in the home. I just listened to one of you guys' conversations about masculinity and the topic went somewhere towards the fact that men are not in the home. And so when you've got these boys that are raised by women in a feminized world, when they see a man, the very first thing they want to know is, okay, what do I got to do to be that way, to aspire to that? Yeah, there's a lot of rudderless men today that don't have the benefit of a masculine, strong, virtuous role model. And that's not to say there's a lot of guys being raised by single mothers. That even comes from households where there is a father who might be a piece of furniture, might not be present, or may not even be masculine and like a thirsty beta doesn't have the legs to set the groundwork. I mean, there's a lot of men out there similar to what you were doing, Elliot, where it's like, you know, you're doing your training. Like I kind of started my channel talking about, you know, successful entrepreneurs in their toys sharing the obstacles they had to overcome in their life to become better versions of themselves. And it's like, all of a sudden people started asking, well, not having luck on the sexual marketplace, what kind of women do you think I should avoid updating? How do you get over heartbreak? And it's like, why don't guys know this stuff? And it's almost like, I didn't really know it either or know it in a way that I could articulate that would be useful. And at some point, you know, after consuming some red pill content like Rollo's book, The Rational Mail and a few others, you just start waking up to and realizing, man, there's a big appetite out there. Like there's a lot of men out there that wanna do better, that wanna become better. I think it's built into our DNA. Some of us don't honor it and subscribe to it or we're not ready for it. But when you go out looking for it, I mean, that's the cool thing about YouTube. It's like, you know, you see men out there that are laying the groundwork and it's not just authors anymore or bloggers or podcasters or YouTubers. I mean, there's any number of places young men or boys can go where they can say, all right, well, this belief wasn't working for me. I'm gonna go looking for answers. And that's a great thing about the internet today is they can go and find those things even though there isn't a man in the house. Rollo, you wanted to go? Oh, no, okay, so we've got a number here. Yeah, let me say, you wanna give out the number real quick. I have a quote, I've got a follow up for that, but go ahead and give the number out. Yeah, I'll post the number in the pop-out chat. If you guys wanna call in, we're gonna start taking calls in just a little bit. So if you wanna get in queue, but when you do call in, make sure you've got your question ready. You know, save the experience talk part, but get right to the question on what you're stuck on. Pose it to the panel. You know, if you specifically wanna pose it to somebody that's on the panel, you can mention that. But yeah, definitely hop in the queue. Donovan will take you guys. Before I pass it back off to you, Rollo, if you wanted to add to that real real quick, we've got close to 600 people watching this live, probably 700, because we're simulcasting this on 21 Studios as well. A few things, just all the links for everybody on their social feed are in the description below. The 21 convention is coming up in October. It's in Orlando, Florida. By the way, Elliot, you're not far. So if you wanna join us there, there's a link there. You are officially invited. Yeah, you're definitely invited. You're gonna be great. Yeah, so before we move on to the calls, just real quick, smash the like button. Thanks for watching. And of course, there's links for everybody's social, or if you wanna grab tickets to the 21 convention, everybody on the panel, with the exception of Elliot right now, we'll find out later if he wants to join us. But yeah, definitely check that out. We'll be taking calls. Do you wanna go on something else, Rollo? I was just gonna follow up with the, as far as the father's thing is concerned, I completely 100% agree about that. However, I will just kind of throw this out there for just color and content. I think that masculinity today has been, what we're seeing as masculinity today is the result of generations of having masculinity blurred and having it distorted for so long right now that we're now encountering a generation of young men who hate masculinity or they hate somebody who looks like Elliot. They hate somebody who writes the way I do. They hate some, they really hate the red pill in a sense because it holds up a mirror to themselves and they have to look into that mirror and really get an idea of what they're looking at. And so like, we were just talking about this on Pat Campbell's show yesterday about that of that Bonobos commercial that was out where it's like, you know, masculinity, that doesn't apply. Oh, that was brutal, that thing was brutal. It was one of the most, the ugliest, but I mean, it's the perfect example of that. And I think that one of the reasons why you have a guy like Jordan Peterson, you have a guy like, or even Elliot, you know, you have these guys who can, you know, build a business around the fact that there's so many guys, at least in Western culture, I'm not sure, you know, people want to tell me like, well, you know, not in my country, you're not here, but I'm saying you just give it time once it sort of filters over into your country, it's going to be, you're going to be dealing with this as well. And I think it's good that we're dealing with it right now, but we're dealing with a generation that hates masculinity or hates the conventional idea of masculinity. And so what do they do? They have to redefine it. They have to make it something that it was never meant to be because they have no frame of reference for it. They were never taught this. And either they had weak fathers, they had beta fathers, or they had no fathers at all. As a result of this feminist, this long-term feminization that really I think began right around the time of the sexual revolution. Yeah, Elliot, you wanted to add to that? Yeah, absolutely. With regard to fathers in the home, I'm so blessed to have had a great father and an alpha father to such a degree that, like in alpha, like in your book, the example of a young man who just doesn't care what anybody thinks, and that was what you called an alpha, my dad is that guy. And it's strange, you know, he grew up in another country coming to America and having him as an example in my home, but then being indoctrinated by schools and TV, you know, and even my mother, she's from Belize also too, but women are more agreeable, as Jordan Peterson would say. They take in the society and do what they're supposed to do. It was strange at a certain point when I was becoming a man, becoming a teenager, the contrast that I noticed between my dad and the rest of the world caused me for a period of time there to resent my dad. And it was kind of crazy. And, you know, there were times where I would assert myself or be kind of like or say something my dad would say, and my mom would even step in and be like, don't be like your father. And it was like now, many years later, you know, it was until I was about 27 years old that I realized, oh, shit, my dad's the man. I was fighting with him all along, trying to do and be all that society has told me is right and true. Sensitive, you know, my dad's a very sensitive man, but not in the feminized way that the world has us believe that we need to be. When I started to come around to the fact that, oh, shit, I grew up in the home with an alpha man and that my dad was right and that I can respect him that much more, it just, it kind of showed me that even with a strong father, the pull of society and the conditioning from media is so strong that it's almost like we can't raise our sons the way, maybe an alpha dad would. Ryan, you made a comment in the private chat. Can you just sum that up for everybody watching? Oh, I love this line. Every time this stupid conversation comes up about redefining masculinity, I always say the same response, that women had three generations to define modern masculinity for us and they screwed it up epically. So I say this with all due respect. Thank you, ladies, but we'll take it from here. Awesome. All right, Donovan, we got some callers. Yeah, we got a caller. 9142055356 is the number to call Michael in New York. You're on live with the Red Man Group. What's your question? Also, Rolo, your book, your book was amazing. I read it twice already in two months and it really did change. I wanna say one thing before I make or have my question, is that I don't think you guys talk enough about how these men end up the way that they do. And I'm talking not just from my personal experience, but from the personal experience of other boys and men that I know, I'm 37. And they've been raised by not just single mothers, but single abusive mothers. And this is more common than I think we think it is. And it's not something that's talked about because it's always like, you can't talk bad about your mom or something like that. The truth of the matter is, a lot of these boys are looking for that direction because of that as well. Now, I think if you talk a little bit more about that, and guys could be a little bit more open towards admitting that to themselves, they could change a lot as well. Because before I found Rolo's book, I did a lot of other things before where I studied personal mental disorders. But it didn't help me as much as Rolo's book in two months. Yeah, the real difficulty with talking about that topic too deeply is you run many risks publicly on platforms that you don't own like YouTube where you could offend a entire demographic and say the things that are true that push them into a corner of flagging, slapping and community banning you. But Rolo wants to speak to that. So go ahead. Yeah, I was just gonna say as I think that, certainly in my book, I've written about this before. It's like, I think that a lot of women are far more abusive, quote unquote, abusive with their sons by turning them into this ideal that they think that they want. What is that? I think 40% or 42% of all births today are born out of wedlock. So you're looking at women who, I mean, it's completely socially acceptable for a woman to want to be a single mother and go down to the sperm bank, find the user hypergamy and find the right guy's sperm impregnate herself and raise a son to adulthood. It's not just socially acceptable, but it's applauded almost, you know, it's almost like they put the top on her. It's celebrated and I understand exactly where this guy's coming from. So there's the celebration of making a woman the complete, like she's completely, but really she makes herself asexual. She's not feminine. She's not masculine. She's a quote unquote, the best of both of those. And so you see this a lot during like, when it's Father's Day and everybody's ripping on fathers all the time. It's like, you know, Mother's Day, it's like we hold them up and we say, oh, mothers are so great. You know, they're doing the Lord's work and they do so much for us. And then when it's Father's Day, it's like, you need to do better, you know? And it's always this- Happy Father's Day to the mothers who are also fathers. Right, yeah, exactly. And that's the perfect example of this. But what happens is that, so we've got this generation of boys who don't feel that they've been necessarily raised by an abusive mother, but they have been raised by a mother who has had it put into her head that she is enough, okay? Like, part of the femme powerment narrative is that women can be both a positive masculine role model as well as a feminine role model. And what they end up doing is they end up turning their boys into this perfect little, you know, pre, what I call pre-whipped guy that's gonna be ready. And, you know, he's gonna be this perfect little equalist. They're gonna take him to all the women's marches. And we're gonna say, boys won't be boys. Boys will be good humans. And so she's trying to raise this good human, but in doing so, she raises an emasculated, impotent, toothless, beta male guy. And so you've got this, so you've got that I see as a form of abuse. Now, I think that what the caller here is saying is like actual real abuse from women. And I do see that, but the problem is that if you start talking about that, we run the risk of then, of giving the impression that we're all about victimology, that we wanna say, oh, poor men. And we constantly, I constantly have to fight against this because guys think that I wrote my book because I was in a horrible relationship and I'm bitter and burned and I had to write this to get it out of my system. It's my catharsis or something. And nothing could be further from the truth, but that is the conclusion that we jumped to because, and Elliot could probably speak to this as well, is that we have what I call a masculine burden of performance. So if we're talking about something, or if we say, it's kind of unfair that men have to deal with this and it's a double standard for women. We say, fuck you, you're a guy. You should be the one who should get up there and man up and meet the challenge and meet your burden of performance. And so if you had an abusive mother, if you had an abusive father, you had an, you know what, all that stuff, forget it. You're a guy, you're supposed to be able to overcome that. And so if I start talking about that and say, you know what, there are abusive mothers who bring up suboptimal boys into suboptimal young men, I can talk about that. But the first thing I'm gonna end up running into is this victimology because men are never supposed to be victims. I think it's subtler too when you were saying on the dad thing, like I'll use my example. So my stepdad was a fairly alpha male, not virtuous, but an alpha male. And my mom was essentially always angry at him, always pissed like any girl is once you start, you know, got tingles for a guy. Now you're a five-year-old kid, you don't know what that means. You just see that girl that I love more than anything is mad at this guy. So I'm gonna do everything I can not to be that guy to make her happy. So it's not even, a lot of it's not even them messing you up. It's that you are messing yourself up, taking her at face value because you're a kid, you don't know any better. Yeah, so that's the part I'd add on to that. Anyway, I think it's good, let's go. I wanted to throw in here that there's this old expression of it takes a village. And it's very easy, you know, to talk about how single mothers fuck up their kids, but why should we do that? There are plenty of statistics to prove that point, prison rates, mental health problems, drug problems and so on. So you, but it actually takes a whole village of people supporting these mothers and contributing to the decline, so to speak. Because you have a school system where boys are mostly trained to be girls. They need to sit still, calm down, shut the hell up and stop fighting. What do boys wanna do when they're young? Well, they wanna fight, they wanna run around. They don't wanna listen to anyone and they wanna have fun, more or less. And if you tell a person like this to sit down and stay still for an hour and listen to teacher, they're gonna act out and then you put them on riddle and then we have a bunch of young men more or less being medicated by the society, being told there's something wrong with them from day one. And then we ask ourselves, then we ask ourselves, how are these boys fucked up? Well, they've been told that they're fucked up from the first day they stepped into school. They've been told there's something wrong with them and how do you get them to learn that, no, this is just how you're supposed to function and these people have been lying to you. Imagine if you taught your kid the wrong lyrics to the Star Spangled Banner at home when he was like two years old and he started singing the wrong lyrics this entire life and got bullied and every time he'd come home and be like, dad, I think you taught me the wrong lyrics. Nope, those are the right ones. Everyone else is wrong. Imagine if it was screwed up, that kid would be after 20 years of that. Do we have any more callers waiting, Donovan? I think you've got a few. Yeah, we've got plenty of callers. I've got, let's see, I've got Jonathan from Modern Life Dating on the Live. Jonathan, go ahead brother. Hey, this question is about changing your belief system and I just wanna know that if, for example, someone was to be raised in a situation of scarcity, like poverty and scarcity in a financial aspect, how would someone rise up out of their own limiting beliefs to take themselves to the next level? Because I watched one of Richard Cooper's videos and had the iceberg drawing and it said, all your choices come from your belief systems which give you results. So I wanna know, in regard to that aspect, how would you unroot yourself from prior belief systems and update your current ones to suit you better in regards to your goals? Okay, I'll speak to that because I learned that topic from, oh man, it was a entrepreneurs event and the guy facilitating it, he's not even on the radar screen, but he's one of the smartest entrepreneurs I know. Basically, the concept is for those of you that haven't seen the video and I think if you search under YouTube, entrepreneurs and cars updating your beliefs or getting better results out of life, I think it comes up as number one, but essentially the results we get out of life are obvious, you can see it, it's like the tip of the iceberg. So I always judge people by what they have lying around them, okay? Because you can tell what kind of choices they make because the choices determine the results and the choices are governed by our belief system, which is our gut, our intuition and what we've been programmed to believe. So my philosophy on that is essentially just reverse engineered. If you don't like the results that you get, if you're getting shitty results out of your life, make better choices every day and to make better choices, you need new beliefs. So you have to go looking for the answers somewhere. I mean, successfully is clues. So all you really have to do is look for people that get great results out of life, watch what they do and then re-engineer your beliefs. Learn mistakes from other people. Don't learn them through yourself. Yeah, I mean, if I could write a book right now, I could call it the biggest loser and talk about all my dumb ass mistakes I've made in my life, but that's not the topic of my book right now, but yeah. Fair point. Do we have any other callers on there? Yeah, yeah, 9142055356 is the number to call Billy. You're on live with the Redman Group. What's your question? Yeah, go ahead. All right, awesome. One thing I'd like to talk about is that guys don't really have any idea how to come back and defeat these days. I wonder if you guys could touch on that for a bit. Oh, Rolo, that's definitely a topic you can hit on. Guys that don't know how to deal with rejection and defeat. Oh, yeah. Well, first of all, rejection is better than regret. Keep that in your mind the whole time. I think that's probably the easiest, kind of little tidbit I think I've come up with. Rejection is better than regret. Taking that chance, taking that shot, who was it, Michael Jordan or something? It says you'll miss all the shots that you don't take. Take those shots. Also, understand that as a man, you have a burden of performance. People will fight me on this, or they'll fight me on what it should mean or what it shouldn't mean. But the fact of the matter is, is that men are always going to be based, your esteem, your reputation, your respect is always going to be based on what it is that you do. How well you perform? How do you bounce back from rejection? Or how do you bounce back from defeat? How do you pick yourself up after that? That's something that I think a lot of guys, one of the things that I really get sick of hearing is this idea about confidence. Like if you have confidence, women want confidence, confidence, confidence, is if confidence is some magical thing that just pops up, just wells within you because if it's some sort of magical spirit that dwells within you and if you just knew how to pick it out of yourself that you'd be more confident. Well, the fact of the matter is is a confidence comes from options. So if you have the ability to create and be successful at certain things in your life that you have had successes in the past and you know you can create those successes again, that is what gives you confidence. It's an understanding and knowing that you have performed well in the past and you can perform well in the future. So how do you get to that point? You become more competitive. You make sure that you're getting, even if you're losing all the time, at least you're out there and you're competing and you're still on the race and you're still doing something, you're still improving, you're still making yourself better. And I know that sounds like sort of a pep talk kind of thing, but I don't believe in magical confidence. I believe in confidence that is derived from options, that is derived from performance. So getting out there, growing, there's a really good section in Robert Green's book, Mastery. If you can bust yourself down and humble yourself to the point where you can take instruction from other people and that you can build yourself up and become an apprentice kind of in such a way. I don't care what that apprenticeship is, but if you can make yourself into an apprentice, if you can find a master, if you can find a mentor who will teach you and show you these things and you can build and become better. I mean, I think Elliot's probably a really good example of this and he can probably speak to this as well as I could, is that he's doing exactly this. He's building these guys up so that they can go out there and that they can win or at least they can have the confidence in knowing that when they're working with him and they're building themselves up and they can see this progress and they're meeting their burden of performance, that they have the capacity to create new options for themselves and from those options, they can derive confidence from that. But Elliot, can you speak to this? So the question is how to deal with rejection. Why is it? How to bounce back from defeat, how to come back from rejection. Oh, well, here's the way I put it. Look forward to the defeat, look forward to the rejection because it is in the defeat and rejection that the seeds of success lie. Like the experience is what allows you to know contrast by having a failure, you now know what doesn't work. And so as a entrepreneur, the way I live my life, I embrace failure, I embrace rejection because I know that it's information, it's wisdom, it's the darkness so that, it's the dark sky so that the stars can shine. You're not gonna see the stars if it's all lit up all the time. You need that backdrop of darkness for anything to emerge and I love the darkness. I love the emptiness. I love the void from which all success comes from and usually it looks dark. Well, I was gonna say it's one of the things that when we were talking about McTowns before in the beginning of this cast is I think that where we differ is fundamentally rooted in how do you deal with rejection? How do you deal with that defeat? How are you going to snap back from that? Or are you going to just simply eliminate yourself from the game and not be competitive anymore? I always tell guys that when they are trying to, when they've unplugged themselves and they want to be better people, they have that, first of all, you have to have that desire to want to be a better person and to want to change your personality and then second of all, how are you gonna go about doing that? Are you going to isolate yourself or are you going to say, you know what, I'm gonna compete better, I'm gonna up my game and I'm gonna be a little bit better or am I just going to avoid it all and just simply win by not playing the game? And I wanna toss it off to Carl before I do, I just wanna say something. Guys, failures, obstacles, these things that fall in your path, your life path on your way, they're really just there as tests and they're testing you for two things. One, are you gonna learn something from this fucking thing? And two, how badly do you really want what it is that you're after? Because that's all it is. I mean, if you're gonna give up because this obstacle falls in a way, by the way, there's a great book by Ryan Halliday called The Obstacles Away, you might wanna check it out. But if an obstacle falls in your way and you fall flat on your ass, I mean, you've got choices, it's either lie down and cry like a bitch or get up and do something about it. Carl? Yeah, I wanted to say that, you know, when I was, I'm sure, mostly of gas, but I was kind of a nerdy book orient and analytical type as a kid. No kidding. Yeah, and what I discovered was the one thing that changed everything for me was actually starting to strengthen it because you get out there and you get really, really raw feedback because you can sit and you can read books for all your life. I mean, I joke around that if I could, I'd sit on the mountain peak somewhere with a bottle of whiskey and just read all day. But when you go into the gym, you get this visceral feedback and you get beaten down, you won't be able to get that rap, but you go back in next week and maybe you're able to get almost get it and then the week after you get it and that's a great metaphor for everything in life. You'll never succeed. The first time you go into the gym and you kind of overestimate your own strength and you throw 200 pounds on the bar and you're laying there with the bar across your neck because you were trying to do guillotine presses because you figure that's how you do a bench press. And after all that, you kind of build yourself up to tolerate rejection, tolerate defeat and you see that if I keep working at something, it gets better. It's not great the first time, nothing is. All right, let's throw it off to the next caller because we've got a few people in queue. Donovan, you're on mute. Yeah, shout out to one cup, two people with the $50 super chat. I love that name. Yeah, I know, listen, listen, so do I. Yeah, let's go to the phone lines. Tom in Florida, you are on with the Red Man Group. What is your question? Hey guys, y'all are great, but I had a question. I don't know if this is on any of y'all's radar, but something called retroactive jealousy, has anyone heard of this? Oh, what's that? Could you define it? Explain what that is. Okay, so retroactive jealousy is, there's forums of people that's maybe a half step away from Red Pill that they'll get into a LTR. It's usually, it's an LTR, it's not casual. And they'll start have like images of the sexual past that they just start ruminating over and over and over. Oh, I see it here again, saving the best. Yeah, that's straight out of saving the best is what that is. Can you break that down whoever's familiar with saving the best? Well, that's a saving the best is a post that I wrote. And it was really, it's one of my most controversial essays. I've never put it in any, I don't think I have ever put it in any of my books, but it was a post I wrote about a guy, I think it was on the Red Pill subreddit. And he was this guy who was this typical beta and waiting. He found his dream girl when he was about 29 or 30, right at the epiphany phase. And then like, think three or four years into the marriage she is completely sexless with him or just as sort of this deadly, she just wants to be this starfish sex and she doesn't want to have sex with him. And she keeps coming up with these excuses that she's not that sexual and she's not really into it. And she doesn't want to do these things with him. Well, later on, in fact, he finds some evidence of her in having done amateur porn. And like back in her college days, and apparently she had some VHS tapes or some whatever videotapes of her that she had kept that the guy found and he started playing and realized that this chick was a whole lot more sexual than she was letting him on to believe. And so it started this whole thing called what I call saving the best. And a lot of guys get into this sort of self-flagellation I guess, so they want to beat themselves up over the fact that their girl was very, very sexual in her party, what I call her party years, between the ages of say like 18 and about 27 years old. And this is the kind of girl that tells you, oh, I was so different. I was so wild in college. And I'm just now that I'm done with the bad boys and now they've gone through their epiphany phase and she's decided that she doesn't want to, she doesn't want to be like that anymore. But the fact of the matter is that she was just looking for a beta provider during her epiphany phase and these guys happen to be it. And I'm actually surprised. I'm gonna have to go look this up because it sounds like there's this whole community that's built up around that sort of self, really self-cuckledry if you think about it because it's these guys who just get upset with their girlfriends sexual pasts and they beat themselves up over it. I think hopefully I'm not interpreting that wrong. I did a little research and hopefully I got the right sources here. And it's weird. It looks like you're saving the best. You know, it has that little subtext to it. The subtext I'm reading from this is it's a condition that you have that's wrong with you and you need to fix. But in reality, it's just a guy who really doesn't want to pay full price for 50% of the goods or full price for used goods. So what that sounds like to me is it sounds like these guys are jumping on the feminine because what happens in this happened actually in saving the best is like there was the guy took the guy who I was writing about took all this and made it public. And he put it, I think he put on a Reddit form or he put on some sort of form. And of course what happens is every single female who responds to this says, well, you just need to get over that. People had their own sexual past and you know, you shouldn't have married her in the first place, yeah. And really what they're saying is it's your problem and you need to get over this. Well, the fact that matters is this guy wouldn't be posting this if he could get over that. And really when I wrote that and the reason that that post was so controversial is because I'm saying, no, don't get over this. Understand human nature. Understand that this is how things work out and this is something that you need to be careful of in the future and watch out for. That's why I wrote preventive medicine so guys can see this and learn from other men's mistakes. And that's the funny thing. If she fucked him like she did in that video, it wouldn't have been no issue. Guy doesn't mind being the last one because he just wants to be the best. Yeah, well, and women defend against that because they know that they're doing the same thing. Yeah, and now you married your high school sweetheart. You guys give each other 100% all the time, right? Like that's your thing. Yes. Yeah, he's got it. He knows exactly what it is. Yeah, Jonathan, you got a personal experience, you wanna share? Yeah, listen, dude, back in the day, I used to get pissed off all the time. And again, this speaks to the insecurity that you have as someone who isn't red pill aware. You try to tell yourself, okay, what's in the past is in the past, but then you find out, you know, she fucked this guy six ways from Sunday. You know, she gave him blow jobs, she swallowed, she let him go back door, but she's not doing it with me. And I'm thinking like, what the fuck? You did it with this guy. Now you don't wanna do it with me. And it's exactly like Rollo and Ryan said. Well, that was me in my past. I don't really wanna do that anymore. And of course, on the outside, I'm thinking to myself, okay, that kinda sorta makes sense. So I guess I'm the good guy, but deep down inside, you want that animalistic sex that she gave to the other alpha bad boys. And when you come full circle and realize, wait a minute, I'm not attractive enough for her to want to fuck me like she fucked that other guy, that's a rude awakening, man. Cool, we have some more callers? Yeah, many, many more callers. We gotta go through these quick. I cannot pronounce your name. I think you said Japata, something in California. Pronounce your name for me, four, one, five, if you would. Davon, you see, I try to screen these callers and I'm going back and forth because I'm hearing you guys at the same time. Davontae in California, you're alive with the red man group. Right, you said so. Hopefully, how about I'll get you, probably. Davontae, go ahead, man. So my question was kinda leading up to this is I was adopted, I come from a black family. I was adopted into a white family. And growing up, I didn't think there was really any difference between white and black until I got into middle school. And then people started saying, well, hold up, you're black and you're not in the gang, you're black and you don't do this, you don't do that. So kinda growing up, I'm thinking to be a black man, I had to get out there, get in crime, get felonies. And I was really brainwashed all the way up until about my low twenties to be thinking that in order to be a man, especially a black man, I had to get in trouble. I had to be into a gang. And my question for you guys is, and plus on top of that, I had the most beta adopted father to make matters worse. So I really found the mad hood into the toxic gang activity. Do you guys see a pattern with that in the youth? And is that something that you guys would consider expanding your consultation and to be able to help bring up masculinity, but also avoid this toxic masculinity? Yeah, thanks for the call, Devante. Listen, I'm the only black guy on the panel. Obviously you guys all know I sound white. So I'll be the first to go on this. The interesting thing is, is being raised in a military family, you don't really, there's all sorts of diversity. I mean, I was raised around Mexican people, Asian people, black people, white people, but we all look acted and sounded exactly the same because when you're raised in a military family, everyone is literally the same. I didn't figure out that there was really sort of a racial divide until my folks split up and we moved with my mother to North Carolina, which is in the deep South. That was the very first time that I saw, well, wait a minute, and I was a band geek, right? So that was the only racially diverse table that there was. But in the lunch room, black people over here, Asian people over here, white people over here, Mexican people over here, it was unbelievable. It was, and honestly looking back on it now, it almost looked like a prison. It almost looked like I was sitting in a prison and yes, guys, I have been to jail before, I've never been to prison, but it's like when you see this kind of stuff, man, like it is a rude awakening. So, and I would stay away from using the word toxic masculinity, Devonte, because that's a social justice warrior thing. Toxic masculinity is another way of saying, listen, you're too masculine for us for making us uncomfortable. What I would characterize this as is the lack of, what is it called, role of positive masculinity? Yeah, it's positive masculinity. Yeah, definitely positive. Well, I think one of the things you have to really worry or wonder about is when you start using buzz terms like hypermasculinity or toxic masculinity. And I can't necessarily speak to this because this is not my frame of reference, but I will tell you about the terminology here. And I think that one of the things that sort of filtered into the mainstream pop culture is this idea of toxic masculinity. And a lot of that gets thrown at the black community, particularly when it comes to the negativity associated with masculinity. And it's like, well, the reason that these kids from the inner city are such criminals is because they ascribe to this masculinity that is dangerous and toxic and it is something that we need to change. And we were just talking a few minutes ago about how there's a lack of fathers in the home right now. And it's interesting to me how we make fathers superfluous. So when it's a single mother will celebrate and we'll say, oh, she can do everything, but yet if you look at the statistics, the children and the sons of single mothers are far more likely to be involved in criminal activity and far more likely to be involved in antisocial behaviors than if they had a two-parent family or even if they had a father that was their single parent. We don't talk about that. We don't say that that is the source of toxic masculinity. We like to say that it's this conventional idea of masculinity that is destroying young men of today. And so what happens is when these guys go out there and they shoot each other or they do something criminal, that's when we say, where's the father? What happened to the father? How come the father's not there to be the man and step in and make sure that these guys don't do that? Well, you've been trying to remove the man from the household for five generations now. What do you fucking expect? So, Elliot, maybe you got something. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, my friend, I can totally relate to your question because I grew up in a suburb of New York City being biracial. So, from Belize, I'm half African and half European and one of the questions I was often asked as a kid in elementary school but didn't think too much of it was, Elliot, what are you? And that question, although, you know, and you growing up in a, being black growing up in a white home, there's that identity ambiguity. And I felt that as well, you know, even with the type of people I would hang out with, you know, in elementary school it was a lot of white kids and then I went to high school it was a lot of black kids. And so I kind of didn't fit in, didn't know where I fit in, who I was supposed to be with. And it bothered me a little bit but I can tell you, my friend, it created so many more options for me because of that ambiguity. You know, we're talking about being able to change your identity or it was the topic of the conversation. It was something to the effect of being able to have- Yeah, in other words, how can you be, yeah, well, not only that, but I think the guy was saying, listen, black men, right, we're expected to be, we're expected to be these masculine people and he's wanting to know, how do I exude that masculinity without breaking the law? I think that's what he was saying. Well, I'm saying like, my question was the topic of our original- Oh, my bad, my bad. Which, you know, is something to the effect of can you change your mind? Can you change your personality? Can you change your identity? Can you be something different at the drop of the diamond? In Rallo's book, when he talks about just being yourself, that once again, that is one of these ideas where you can be whoever you want to be in any single moment and that is freedom from the constraints of what it is to be black, what it is to be white, what it is to be anything beyond what your soul's calling you to be in any moment. Awesome, so before we take the next caller, just a quick announcement. I can't get the link right now because I'm afraid I may end the broadcast if I switch over to the other channel, but we're planning on centralizing the Red Man Group on its own YouTube channel. So if you can watch out in the pin description for the link for that, I'll definitely do it after the show. Donovan, you have another caller? Yeah, absolutely. 9142055356 is the number to call Quinton in California. You're on live with the Red Man Group. What's your question? Good morning. Thank you all for all your hard work. On the question, well, let me back up. For those of us who have become red to the wear and awakened later on in life on 38, do you ever question fidelity within your social and your professional circles? Questioning how authentic you are because your mind and belief system has changed and evolved over time. What's authentic? Excellent, excellent question. Yeah, do you talk at home the same way you talk at work? I don't talk like this at work. So what's authentic? You touched on this a bit, Ryan, with the boat, the analogy. However, how you approach things? I actually have a post on this. Hope you always don't mind. I'm taking the lead on this one. I call it the Don Draper, John Ham and Dick Whitman thing. It's like using narcissism for you. So for example, how did it work in the story? It's Mad Men, so bear with me here. Dick Whitman played John Ham in the show, right? He plays this narcissist that fills people up to be one thing or the other. And then when people would call him out on that, he all he would do is get angry and rage out. It's like, fuck you, I'm John Mad Men, fuck you. But then the point was, the actor John Ham doesn't give a shit. If you call him out, you're not that guy in real life. He goes, of course not, I'm an actor. It's just that kind of, that distance. I think Gay Lou Boyle calls it cynical implementation. It's the best way I can describe it. Yeah, you have a way you act around people. It doesn't mean you're any different. It just means you're tailoring how you communicate to your audience. And really- Yeah, just gotta be careful with that. You've gotta be aware. You can't walk into the wrong room with a T-shirt that says feminism is cancer, right? Yeah, it's a fucking problem and it's gone a little too far nowadays, but you've gotta filter yourself for the audience that you're speaking to. I mean, this is a man's show. This is a man's space that we're on right now and we're communicating with men to help them become better versions themselves, which is why we're having these conversations. But you've gotta be aware of what room you're in, right? I never, and that's a very good point, Richard. And I never questioned my fidelity. I think people question, am I really red pill? Am I really, am I really like this? I think this happens early on because again, in the beginning stages of the red pill, you're in a transitional period. You start to see things, you know, like, okay, wait a minute. I saw this on Donovan's show or I read this on the rational mail where I heard Ryan talk about this. And the more you see it, the more confirmation you get. But by the same token, your mind is still, listen, you're all in on the red pill, but your mind is still conflicted because you're trying to undo, and that guy was 38. I found the red pill when I was 32. I'm trying to undo 32 solid years of blue pill conditioning, and that can be very difficult. So my, the answer to Quinton and California's question is, yeah, early on, I think you do question fidelity, but just like Richard said, you have to know your audience. You can't go in and speak red pill truth at work because that's, I mean, that's a pretty good way to get fired. But by the same token, you know, if you're around your buddies, you can't really speak red pill truth around them either because that doesn't really go over too well. So I understand the- But you can act like it. You can act like it, but the authenticity thing is definitely there. So the longer you're in it, the more authentic you become. It becomes second nature like I talked about earlier before. That's who else you gotta be. You gotta be anybody but yourself. Right. I said, you know, there's, you know, there's certain times where you can drop sound bites, for example. So you're, you know, you're at an event and somebody's talking about something that's going shitty in their relationship or going sideways, you know, a quick sound bite that you could drop as well, you know, women break rules for alphas and make them for beta sort of thing and see what kind of door that opens to see how it might be taken. But yeah, like you've got to pay real close attention to the audiences there. We've got more callers waiting, I know. So why don't we move on? You're still muted, Donovan. Yeah, I was, I thought somebody was gonna say something else. Okay, let's go back to the phone lines. Michael and Philly, you're on with the Red Man group. Go ahead. Hi, so in Elliot's MGTAL video, he went into this deep discussion about kind of transcending into the masculine, which he called like the world of immaterial, of spirit, and kind of transcending out of the world of the feminine, like the solid, the rational. And I kind of wanted to hear more discussion about that. And especially because in the red pill, it's, you don't hear much about like the immaterial. And it's many of the red pill proponents are very kind of into objectivism and rationality, which kind of, which Elliot kind of described as more being in the feminine. So he has kind of like almost an opposite labeling of those two worlds. So I'm kind of curious what you all think about that different dichotomy and how much value you think that has, should a red pill man be, what should he be doing in terms of developing that transcended immaterial side? All right, thanks for the call, Michael. Yeah, Elliot, take the lead, man. This is a concept that I've heard from Robert Moore in the King within. I know if anybody has an opportunity to study his work, he's a neo-Yungian and he brought to light in that book that the word paternity comes from the word pattern. And if we think in terms of patterns, patterns aren't necessarily material, they're archetypes. They're more like the what Carl Jung called the collective unconscious. And then the world that we live in, the sensational world is material and that the word maternity, mother, comes from the material world. And if you just cross-culturally the, cross-culturally father has been spirit. Father has been above and feminine has been below. Feminine has been water, has been earth. When men are seeking ourselves to become the strongest version of ourselves, traditionally our answers would look to their paternity. They would look to the other men. They would look to the pattern of behavior that's being exhibited by other men because that's how we learned how to be men. That's why we had rites of passages. That's why we had various rituals that brought men up into what was expected of them. We no longer have that. So I'm not saying that we need to go back to that the same way that we did back then, but what I'm pointing to is the practice in rites of passages and male initiation of physically removing a young man from the world of matter, from the maternal matter, from the realm of the mother into the realm of the father. And that requires a separation from women, from society, from civilization. And that's why when young men began to exude or show behaviors that were associated with them now, becoming from a boy to a man, the very first thing that the fathers would do, the patterns would do, the paternities would do, the wise men, the elders would do is strip him away. It was almost like a migtail sort of mentality that men got to go their own way for a moment and women understood this. This was something that was, the entire society would support. Women knew that, okay, this boy, in order for him to become a man, he needs to separate from the world of the mother, the world of me, the world of matter, the world of society, he needs to be taken off with the men, the paternities, the pattern and shown taught what it is to be a pattern, a paternity, a male archetype in society by other men. So my call in that video is really what I'm, what I'm shining the light on and congratulating Migtau on is getting the fact that men do need separation from. We don't do this, we get where our mom puts, come out of our mom's pussy and we end up in schools being taught by other women and the world is feminized. What men really need and why I felt that Migtau idea was a really great idea is a physical, psychological, sociological separation from women at critical junctions in our development, boy going to man and man through his transitional phases. Carl, go ahead. Yeah, when you look at the rights of passage, one of the interesting things I noticed when you look at ancient cultures is what they, one that stuck with me was they would take the boy, they would strip them, they would tie him down on top of an ant tail and he'd be more or less be munched on by fire ants or something like that for days and days and days. And then they, no one would help him, no water, no food, nothing. And that kind of puts you in a weird mental state. The best thing that can compare it to is when you're at the bottom on a squat, you have no spotter and you're completely blown out but you know you have to get the weight up. You kind of find that strength that you don't, didn't really know you have and you learn something about yourself that when you feel like you're at the last bit of fuel, there's still a whole huge tank of reserves you can draw. And that's why I've been a fan of monk mode more than men. If I can add to that, yeah, you're 100% right. And the other part of that, that that type of torture would bring forward in a young man's life is the fact that men can be nurturers also too. Because I'm pretty sure that when they left that little, that young man there to have that experience, the older men came back afterwards and helped him heal his wounds. This is critical for men learning how to trust other men. A big part of what's caused us to be separate for one another is this skepticism, young man against old man and men against men. But that's because of women. This is because of women. Well, I'm not about the blame right now. What I'm trying to point out is that that gave older men an opportunity to display the nurturing quality that is within every man. You know, that's another yin and yang concept that within every man there's a woman. Well, it's very important for young men to know that older men can nurture them, can love them, can take care of them after they've been eaten up by ants. But here's the thing though, and I agree with you 100%. The problem that we have in today's society and Ari and Vega, somebody gets you here in just a second, the problem that we have is that we have women using the let's you and him fight technique. Women, and especially, we have an increasing number of boys and girls raised by single mothers. And what single mothers inadvertently teach their children, both boys and girls, is the inherent distrust of men. So that when men get to an age where they need a mentor, they're not looking to other men because they're single mothers have told them, well, you know, your father, that nigga ain't shit. He left me and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, what she didn't tell him is that she had another kid with another man while she was with him. And I'm not saying that it's always the single mother's fault. Actually, it kind of is most of the time. I'm just gonna go ahead and be misogynistic here. But without being a caricature of myself here, the bottom line is one of the main reasons why men don't trust each other is because of women. Men are giving women too much of a space in their minds and in their daily lives. Don't trust men. Well, who told you not to trust men? Women. Well, dude, women can't have men trusting each other because if men started trusting each other, dude, the jig is up. That's all there is to it. Rola, you wanted to add to that? Yeah, I was just gonna say is anybody who knows me, I'm not a big fan of Carl Jung actually. I think that a lot of his theories are very well outdated and a lot of them are really kind of hocus pocus, woo woo, metaphysical stuff. However, I have written a post called Rights of Passage and I do definitely agree on the idea that we need to... If there's any one red pill ritual that we need to institute, it's really a Rights of Passage because what I see happening right now is like I'll have guys who are unplugging from the matrix or they're going red pill or whatever and they don't know what to do with themselves and they don't have that community maybe they'll go find it in the red pill subreddit but I mean, really that's all there is, great but I think there needs to be something a little bit more. I wouldn't necessarily call it a nurturing because I think that that's a want to find a balance. That's a want to find a male and a female in the same individual and I will tell you right now that according to my way of thinking, I think that's just simply bullshit only because I think that men's mentality, men's, our neurological architectures, the way we are, our physics, our hormonal, our testosterone as opposed to estrogen and that kind of stuff really puts us into a different category and I've always said this men and women are different. One of the things that we have wanted to do for a very, very long time is find this balance and we've done that because we've been trying to appease the feminists for so fucking long right now that we believe in this blank slate equalism. We believe that men have a feminine side that we have to get in touch with and women we're trying to masculinize them and at what point does it become women are just this androgynous thing and men are this androgynous thing? At what point are we so concerned with balancing out our humors or balancing out our feminine or our masculine that we just become this asexual lump of flesh that is supposed to be the best of both and we're really the worst of both at that point. So what I think though that needs to happen though is I'm not saying that nurturing for men is unimportant it is, but I would call it mentoring as opposed to women nurture men mentor. Men are there to help and to build or they should be there to help and to build up the next generation and to have that rise of passage. It used to be that young Native American men would have to go out in the forest and survive for X amount of time and they come back to the tribe and they were considered a man. For Jewish boys, I mean, you had the bar mitzvah that was a separation for Latin cultures for what was it, the quinceanera for a woman a woman didn't become a woman until she was 15 and she had her quinceanera and right now it's this big commercial blitz to make people buy more shit but they don't see that the latent purpose of those rituals were to separate that person that human being from their childhood into their adulthood and to be treated as if they are now an adult man. And just what we were talking about before how we have this generation of lost boys looking for a mentor, looking for a father figure like a Jordan Peterson who's gonna say, here's 12 rules and once you get past that and you go and you make your bed and you clean up your room, then you're a man. And I was like, that's not enough. But the thirst and the hunger for that is still there. And so I absolutely agree that there needs to be a right of passage for guys who go from that blue pill delusion into a red pill paradigm into a red pill way of life and there needs to be some demarcation I think between that. And I'm not saying you go and you get a tattoo or whatever, but there has to be some sort of idea that you are leaving behind, putting away childish things and we're becoming men. We need to find that however you decide to ritualize that I think that's a very important aspect of going red pill is to have that demarcation of some way that you have become a different person that you've gone through this transformation and you are who you are now because you were who you were before. Yeah, I think if we wait until somebody gives it to us we're gonna be just disappointed. Yeah, we have to do it. I think we have to do it ourselves, to be honest. I think I said it in my post on what is masculinity now and you got to just plop yourself in that spot and say, I'm here and I dare you to fucking move me. It's really the only option we have right now. Yeah, it's well, you know, men do women talk sort of thing. Carl, did you still want to jump in on that? Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, I just wanted to add one more thing on Jung because he was big on the anim and the animus, the feminine and the masculine and the masculine and the feminine. But one of the more conveniently forgotten passages deals with what he calls anima and animus possession which is what I think we're seeing now with a lot of men and a lot of women. And what that is, is that a woman becomes all the worst qualities in a man and a man becomes all the worst qualities in a woman. And that's kind of what we bred into people because if you look at the soy boy contingent as we would refer to them, they are all the worst things about a woman. They're argumentative, they won't stand up to conflict. You know, they pick verbal fights, they back talk, et cetera. And the women are basically what happens if you take Don Draper, given five pounds of cocaine and set him free in the middle of Vegas, he's just a train wreck. Oh my God, been there, done that. 914-205-5356 is the number to call to get in on the show. Ari in Vegas, you're on live with the Red Man Group. What's your question? Thanks for having me. Absolutely. I have a bit of a multifaceted question I suppose. First off, I would say, yo, Elliot, thank you for doing what you do. I'm actually on a walk this morning because of some simple practices he gave me to work on. I guess my question, I'm 23, I'm about to be 24. Last several years of my life, I've been in a position where like my father, like yours, is an old school man of action, fought the Russians, a household family out of Afghanistan, brought him out here, you know, like he's been there and seen some shit, but he's getting old. I'm in this household that have two younger sisters who, you know, I've been a bit of a surrogate too, and I'm at this quandary, I suppose, between, say, holding to my values as a red pill, maybe black pill man of like hardcore masculinity, doing what I need to do in order to achieve actualization, but also leaving a healthy mark on these young children who, to me, for guidance and looked at me as a role model, you know. Hearing the stories from the last couple of callers, I don't want them to be in that amateur phase because somewhere along the way I wasn't a good role model or I left the maternal in order to go explore the world, like I have in the past, I was in Lewis College, I went and spent time with poets and philosophers and musicians and whatever, traveled the world, and that was my initiation of the world. Another fast to the question, I suppose, I'm sorry. Like I said, I'm not in a lot of sharks skin, but going to the rites of passage, what can we do as a community? You know, for me, that was martial arts, going to metal concerts and mosh pits and really exposing myself to all kinds of different cultures, different peoples. What can we say as a community, you know, right down in stone, like instead of a vision quest, like this is what the modern man, the modern youth, the needs in order to be a man that they can bring a potentially purple pill philosophy. So women in his life, he is that grounded alpha man, but he can still act functionally in these blue pill environments that wants to condition him. But instead, he's just the best of what he has off with what they're looking for, please, your comments. What did Michael Jordan be that role model to millions of kids? He got really good at his thing. He didn't, he wasn't trying to be a role model. He was just trying to be the best basketball player ever. And it just comes with the territory. That's my thought on that anyway. I don't have any ideas as far as what a rite of passage should be. I think I made a reference to, there was a tribe down in South America. And when the boys become a certain age, and I've also seen like an African tribe, like they do like these patterns with razor blades. And the boys are like 10 or 11 years old and they cut them like 1,000 times and they make these elaborate patterns. And like you see these little boys crying, but when it's all over, they become men. Same with the bullet ants. What is the rite of passage in the West, unfortunately, is just getting laid. And that's fucking pathetic. And you wanna know something, I think it all started with the American Pie series. Like, you know, American Pie was all about these guys. Oh my God, like their whole existence was all man, if we can just get laid, if we can just fuck pretty girls, you know, Shannon, Elizabeth, and you know, the MILF and this and that and the other, then we'll be men, we'll be happy. Well, unfortunately, this is what people think. This is our rite of passage, just sticking your dick in a vagina. Well, what happens after that? Nobody knows what happens after that. Being able to fuck girls does not make you a man. It certainly can be a marker of masculinity if you can do it consistently. And of course, you know, I'm sure people have different views of that, but we do need to have a rite of passage. And Elliot, listen, you're obviously a strong man. I think you've probably been through some rites of passage yourself. What do you suggest in 2018 that we should, you know, what kind of rites of passage could we do without being labeled as abusive? Or oh my God, I can't believe these boys are doing that. Like in fraternity, these like hazy, that used to be a rite of passage, but now we got guys killing each other. And then of course the anti-bullying thing. I mean, I don't know where to go from here. Well, you know, we lament over the breakdown of society, but I think also too that the breakdown of society creates room for new options and for creativity, particularly for men. And by not having that laid out for us, we are in the greatest place. We have the greatest opportunity to create it for ourselves in our own new and expansive and multifaceted unique way. So what I mean by that is, if you are a basketball coach, you are providing rites of passage for young men, what needs to be instilled is the consciousness of an elder or a ritual elder, somebody who's providing a rites of passage. Because we're all doing it. For example, my uncle taught me how to lift weights when I was 14 years old. That was my rites of passage. I learned so much about pain. I learned so much about growth. I learned so much about responsibility. I learned so much, he didn't know what he was doing when he was teaching me how to lift that barbell. But for all intents and purposes, especially as it related to the way I received it as a young man, that was a rites of passage. Now as men having these kinds of conversations, which is great, that we have to have these kinds of conversations in order to bring awareness to what's missing. But now that each one of us as older men know this, we can, like Mercy Eliade says something to the effect of nothing has any value unless we give it value. The difference between something that's profane and sacred is the context that we bring to it. So if you are working as a construction worker and there's young men coming in, working during the summer, just knowing that this is an opportunity for me to mentor to and create consciousness around the fact that they're going to be evolving through their time here with me, we're doing it. We're doing it the way we bring our gifts to the world. Like Ryan said about Michael Jordan. Michael Jordan got put in that place because he played basketball. Now he may or may not have known that he was creating a pattern for young men and that maybe he created basketball camps where little boys became men, but he was doing it. And my call is just, we're all doing it. Let's just be conscious of the fact that we are doing it and call it that when we are actually doing it so that a young man knows what just happened. God, I would just want to just chime in here real quick is that I think that like I was saying, I think it writes a passage are very, very important right now for us. But the problem that you're going to end up running into is that masculinity has become so ridiculed and so juvenileized and so blurred and so obscured that if anytime you go and you try to say, well, my rights of passage was lifting weights. My rights of passage was X, Y, or Z, whatever. That is always going to be ridiculed as part of this legacy masculinity. So I think when we're at, like we were talking about that video, the bonobos video where we're trying to find out what's masculinity? What is it? I'm not big and muscular, you know, that kind of stuff where we're trying to redefine what masculinity is for ourselves. But when you say, hey, when my uncle taught me to lift at 14, that was my rights of passage into manhood, that other element is going to say, well, that was just hazing or that was just bullying. I mean, we got to the point where it's any form of conventional masculinity today is indistinguishable from bullying. It's indistinguishable from hazing. It's hypermasculine, it's toxically masculine. And if you believe even in the idea of a ritual where you go from being a boy to a man or you even call yourself a man, you are ridiculous. And I think that pushing past that is really, first of all, it's a red pill, I think it's a red pill essential. It's a red pill principle that you need to look at the world like this guy was just saying, you know, you need to look at this blue pill world from a red pill lens and then decide what you're going to do with that. And I think that one really big meta shit test that guys have to pass and really it's kind of like that test or that rights of passage is actually a test is to say, you know what, I don't care what a blue pill world says, this is my rights of passage and this is how I got from being a blue pill chump to being a red pill aware man. And so there has to be something, there has to be some demarcation there. But in that demarcation, you have to realize you're going to meet resistance. You're going to meet resistance from a world that hates masculinity. That's a part of the initiation. A part of the initiation is the resistance because what makes you alpha is the not giving a fuck what they say. Very good. All right, we're going to take one last call here. John in Texas, you were on live with the red man group. What's your question? Boom, it's good to be here, man. I love y'all to death. So I got a quick one. It kind of segues really well, I think. One thing I wonder if, I wonder if tragedy might be a good rite of passage in a way. Kind of, or maybe not tragedy, but pain. Like kind of what Rich went through with boiling water back in the day. I wonder like things that just kind of toughen you up. Anyway, what I'm sure about is when are you ready for a rite of passage? So I got started with the pickup thing when I was in my early 20s. Didn't hate it, but it quickly made me realize that it's just not worth it. You know, I ended up chasing girls for pretty much no reason and kind of built my life around the whole thing and it's kind of stalling out. So I wonder, yeah, where do you, how do you kind of figure out, how do you reassess your purpose and when is it too late maybe to take a, because you kind of want to stay the course and keep putting money in the bank. You don't want to take that hit maybe, whether that means going back to school, doing a little bit of traveling, something, but when do you know you got to do that and make a change? Good call, Sean. Thanks for calling into the show. Yeah, Richard. Yeah, okay. Well, I'll start by saying that, I've had a number of items of trauma in my life started as a toddler when I pulled a kettle of boil and water on myself and I got third degree burns on my arms and chest and neck and kind of dealing with reconciling that, going through my childhood and teenage years and the unplugging from the conditioning that I subscribed to up until about two or three years ago, which didn't serve me. It didn't serve me in life, in business, with the creation of wealth, with women. It definitely is trauma that pushes men to seek information that allows them to update their beliefs. I had a private conversation with Sean Smith, those of you that have watched the red man group before, know who he is, he's a clinical psychologist from Colorado and we were talking about how your safe world theory can shatter and this was a private conversation that we had together, so I'll share it with you guys. Basically, what I had going on in my life after my divorce, after the legislative passing of a new bill in Ontario that changed the way that I had to operate a business, which was a fucking nightmare, after the breakup with the single mom, after the divorce, you end up where some guys do anyway and I did, where it's like I had all the symptoms of PTSD, recurring nightmares and ability to sleep and ability to focus, can't go to places that you've been to before, that create recurring memories, blah, blah, blah. So for some men, it's significant trauma that can move them to that rite of passage that lets them let go of the old shit that wasn't serving them and saying, okay, let's take this belief system that sucks, unplug it, drop it over here, take a new one that might serve me better, plug it in and make new choices and see what the results look like from there. So that was my experience with my own rite of passage with trauma or even PTSD and the shattering of my own belief system. I think maybe one time we'll have Sean talk about that on one of these broadcasts. I think it's a really profound subject matter, but Donovan, you wanted to go? Yeah, listen, interestingly enough, my rite of passage didn't come until I was 31. I lived a great life and I mean, my folks split up and my mom cheated on my dad, but honestly, when I think about my childhood, my childhood was wonderful. I got to live in Hawaii twice. I got to live in Washington State, Oklahoma, California, Georgia, New York, North Carolina, New Jersey. I got to live everywhere. I got to see a bunch of great things. I was a straight A student in school. I went to a great college. Even when I got married at the age of 24, I still had these rose-colored glasses on. And even after my divorce, I still didn't really know what, I didn't really know that life was pain, like becoming a man was pain. It wasn't until I dated who I call Amy. I've talked about her, the worst heartbreak of my life. After I went through that bullshit, that's when I became a man. That is the worst, I'm gonna tell you what, man, and a lot of guys may think, well, Donovan, that's not the case, and it shouldn't be, no, no, no, no. I'm telling you right now, the worst emotional pain I've ever felt in my life was when I asked Amy if she cheated on me and she told me she did. It was, dude, I felt it from spine to sternum, man. And after that experience, I got, dude, I got hooked on pain pills. I was doing cocaine and it was, and finally, when I got kicked out of the state, the quasi-crack house I was living in, the little Jamaican guy comes in and says, you don't live here. You gotta be out of here by nine o'clock the next morning, or the sheriff is gonna come and remove you. My brother sent me a bus ticket and 10 bucks to eat on on the way to Atlanta. That's when I really became a man. And then, of course, six to seven months later, I landed in Vegas a month after that, I found the red pill. But that's when I became a man was that, was that emotional trauma. And I think every, I think every man for Elliot, it was learning to lift weights at 14 years old, putting stress on the body or the mind and coming through it. I think that is sort of your automatic right of passage. Elliot got his when he was 14. I got mine when I was 31 years old. I think it happens for different people at different times. And it shows. And I think it's cyclical also too, because at various stages, we need a new initiation. Yes, wow, good point. That's funny. That's exactly what I was about to say. It's like, I've got a, I've got a post out called being zeroed out. And it's, it was sort of born of this idea of so many guys these days are simply not prepared to be zeroed out to have all of their, what they think is their relational equity or their life equity to be reduced to zero, to be reduced to nothing. Like the guys in the Great Depression who had their bank accounts go from being like, almost millionaires to zero, they're jumping out of windows because they can't foresee a life beyond, beyond having that money, beyond having what they put all of their energy into. And I see a lot of guys, I work with a lot of guys like this who are zeroed out and it's usually that zeroing out that pushes them into a new stage of life or something new. And I think that honestly, I think that human beings cannot be content with anything. I think the state of being is really discontent and how you deal with that discontent is up to you. You can deal with it creatively or you can deal with it destructively. And I think far too many guys deal with it destructively right now. As far as my own unplugging and as far as my own, I guess, rights of passage, I think I discussed this last week on the dangerous women podcast when we were talking, I was talking about me being with this borderline personality disorder girlfriend that I had and then making that decision not to go to one room over here but to go to the other room over here or go out the door and leave that life and literally symbolically walking out the other door and getting away from all of that. That was a rights passage for me. Now, did I have a lot more growing to do after that? Did I, I certainly wasn't Red Pill Rolla Tomasi as soon as I walked through that door. It took a lot more. There's, it's not just, I think one thing that needs to be clarified here is that once you've gone through this rights of passage that you believe is going from one personality, shedding your skin and then going on to the next personality, you don't just do that in the blink of an eye, okay? You have to build yourself into that. But that point of demarcation, that right, that ritual where you're moving from the old into the new is very, very important. But understand that that's just the beginning. That's just where you have, that's just the decision-making point. That's not the actual building point into what it is that you want to become. You want to be somebody else. So that's very important. I think also coming to that point, unfortunately for a lot of guys, it has to be a trauma. It has to be a traumatic experience. It has to be something that rattles you. Somebody has to die in some cases. And some, sometimes I think that one of the reasons that we see men killing themselves at five times the rate of women right now is because they can't see a future life with them beyond their zeroing out, beyond that trauma. So what do they do? They either kill themselves or they kill themselves along with their wife and who's leaving them and taking their three children with them. That's why you see stories like that. And we don't want to talk about that. We want to say that that's toxic masculinity. And if it just was better gun control and if it was just better, if men weren't quite so toxically masculine then they wouldn't kill themselves. Well, no, these guys are doing exactly what they've been taught as emotional, their emotional blue pill conditioning has taught them to be emotional, to express their emotions. And you know how these men express their emotions? They do so with a gun. They do so when we kill themselves or they hang themselves like Anthony Bourdain when they make a statement or an artistic project out of it to say, hey, look, I got zeroed out and I couldn't go on. I couldn't see a future beyond, I couldn't live without her. I had one eye that's so bad that I couldn't live without her. She was my one and she's gone. And now I'm zeroed out to the point where this trauma is hurting me so bad that I don't see a future and therefore I'm done. That's what I'm trying to get guys to avoid. That's why the red pill awareness is there so that you can see that there is another life, that there is more hope in a red pill paradigm. But for you to get to that red pill paradigm and live in that red pill aware life, you have to kill off that data. You have to kill off that blue pill stuff and you can't go back to it. You can't keep clinging to it. You can't go and say, I know all this red pill aware stuff. This is great. Now I can go back to my blue pill shit and I can get my dream girl and I can live out all these blue pill ideals. No, you have to put that away and you have to give up hope on that blue pill bullshit that has been a lie that has been your life for so fucking long and now you are a red pill guy and you have even greater hope and greater opportunity because the blinders are off. You could see and here's the thing is you have responsibility for that. You have responsibility on yourself to say, you know what, I'm aware now and I got no one to blame but myself because I can't say it was that blue pill conditioning anymore because I have now transitioned. No excuses, man, you have the information. What you do with it and what you do with it is up to you. This is why I have little respect for these bottom dwelling big towels. These guys know the sexual market place is fucked up but they choose to check out. I'm a little bit of that. All right, so it is time to wrap up this broadcast as Rolo so eloquently stated. You need to kill off the older version of yourself to become better. I think all these great men on the panel have lived it at some point. We've all shared our own stories and experiences throughout the broadcast. I hope you guys enjoyed this one. Keep an eye out on the Twitter feed for the announcement of the next one. I believe Anthony will probably host it next Saturday. Again, I will in the description below pin the new YouTube channel where we will be moving the Red Man Group to eventually. We need to get 1,000 subscribers on it and I believe 10,000 views to start broadcasting live. So if you guys could kindly go to that link and subscribe to the new channel, we'll certainly move over there as soon as YouTube will allow us to broadcast from that centralized platform. So thanks again to all the panelists, contributors, Red Man Group, and especially our special guest today, Elliot Hulse, the link for everybody. Yeah, I just wanted to say thanks for coming on, Elliot. And this has been one of the better ones for me to have you on here. I think this is great. And I'm putting a personal invite to the 21 convention in October 11th to the 15th. It's in Orlando. We'd love to have you there. That would be great. Elliot, one last question. What's your high bench and what's your high deadlift? I had to ask, man. I had to ask. Are we going to start pulling out our dicks now and measuring them? Oh, my god. Go on, Elliot. What is it? My neck is nowhere near what his would be. Well, let me pull out my dick right now and tell you. I think my, did you say deadlift? It was 700. I think it was 705. Oh, Jesus. Dude, minus 385 and yours is 7. Oh my god. Unbelievable. That's ridiculous. Dude, that's Ronnie Coleman, Jay Cutler type shit, man. I don't even know if they would have gone that big, man. You're talking strong man shit. That's what's going on. What do you bench? What do you bench? Well, I don't bench that much any longer. I did that was years ago. But my best bench was 455. Goddamn. See, that's I'm old school. That's where I that's where I make the comparison. Yeah. Yeah. Fuck me. All right. Let's wrap it up, gentlemen. Thank you very much. We'll see you guys in the next broadcast. Elliott, I'll shoot you a link to the 21 Convention by email afterwards in case you want to join us there. OK, see you guys later. Bye, man. Peace.