 Liz Wade and this is Adam Novus. Hi Adam. Hello Liz. And we are here to have a real conversation about our program, No Baby, No Shame in Infertility. If you haven't had a chance to listen to that program or watch it on YouTube, you can find it on YouTube. Follow along with the script. You can find it on our website at www.spotlightenglish.com or of course you can listen to it as a podcast through any of your podcasting platforms. And you can also listen to the advanced form if that is more your style. It's a little bit faster, a little bit more of a natural speaking speed. So we have a lot of options for you and we hope that you have listened to that program or read through it so that you can join us in this conversation today. And of course all the links to those things are in the program description below as well. So we have the very big privilege of talking to the actual writer of this program, Adam Novus. Thank you. So Adam, can you tell us a little bit, just a summary of what this program is about? Yeah, this program is about a very common problem which is infertility. Infertility is defined as it taking longer than one year to become pregnant and have children, though on an emotional level it can seem shorter or longer than that. And it tells the story of one woman's struggle but also talks about kind of what are some things we can do to support people who may be struggling with infertility. Infertility is a very common problem. It's something that I can speak to personally. I will start by saying one of the motivations I had in writing this program or even becoming aware of this was my own struggle with infertility. My wife and I, this is a number of years ago now, my children are growing up faster and faster, but it was really... There is a happy ending for you. Yes, there is a happy ending to this story. It took us a long time to be able to have children. We knew we had some underlying medical problems, but we didn't know how severe or what impact those would have until we decided we wanted to start our family. And then we had to talk to some doctors and try different things. And it can be, as this program talks about, it can be a very hard thing to talk about, but it does affect a lot of people. And of course, not being able to talk about a problem rarely makes it better, right? Yeah, well, because there's two parts that you're describing. There's the medical part, like the reason maybe for infertility. And that is difficult to talk about, because you don't want to talk about... Maybe you have an underlying health issue that you don't want everybody to know about, or you don't want to tell everybody about what sort of treatments, medical treatments you're getting. So there's that part. And this program doesn't even cover that part, because there's a lot of treatments for infertility, for men and women. But this program really focuses on the sort of social attitude about infertility, which you've described, which is nobody really wants to talk about it, even though it is so common. Yeah. And even for people who are able to talk about it, there's often some pressure from parents who would love to have a grandchild, or brothers and sisters who are having children easily, or even friends who seem able to have children easily. I know from my own experience, we had some people in our lives who weren't even trying to get pregnant and got pregnant. And you want to be happy for them, but also it's a lot of pressure. So you do. You have children in a family, in a big family. There's parents and grandparents and all that. But it's also a medical thing. And in a lot of places, I would say almost... I don't know if this is true. I think always there's trying to think of a country or a place where having children is totally independent from the social. It's just so core to what it means to be humans, right? Right. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And sometimes when people choose not to have children, which we also have a program about, they get those sorts of things too. Like, when are you going to have children? And they've decided not to, but yeah, it's really difficult. I was really surprised that the actual statistics worldwide are about... I think it's 15% of people who are trying to have children, and then it can be up to 20%. So maybe in some populations or ages or areas, but that statistic really is quite high. Yeah. I always think of it as one in six, which I think breaks down to about 15%. One in six people. Right. Yeah, that's a lot for something that affects so many people for there also to be this stigma about talking about it. Yeah. And that doesn't... I don't think that includes people who have miscarriages. So people who have pregnancies that don't result in a live birth. So this is a whole thing. And I think that there is... Not everybody is comfortable talking about that kind of thing. No. For medical or because of they want to talk about their relationship. And I think that there are some narratives out there, some stories that we tell each other that to be a man means to the children. To be a woman, it means these things. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and this is the other thing that the program does mention is that especially for women... Well, I can only speak from a woman's perspective, but especially for women, there is this feeling like if you can't have children that you might feel broken. That there is not... Yeah. That there is not that ability for you to do that and that there's something wrong with you that you don't have worth. Like this woman in the program who talks about how she couldn't have children at all. And then her husband married someone else. And then people wouldn't talk to her and they would say to their children, don't go near her. But yeah, that's really difficult. Well, it's because life is hard enough when you have problems outside of yourself and you're trying to find a job or learn English, for example. But when you have a problem where you're kind of fighting against your body and whether that is with an ability or inability to do something like have a baby, there can be a lot of pressure on there. And I will say from a man's perspective, it's very easy to put all the blame or all the effect on women. Right. Yeah, exactly. There's definitely an imbalance there when it doesn't... That's not medically true, right? Yeah. I know my wife felt that even then, you know, we were trying to get medical tests done and it was... Yeah, there was no like fault. There was no... Yeah, because sometimes there's no reason, right? It's not like, oh, you know, you can treat this thing and then it will get better or whatever. There just might just be no medical reason. Right. And you... So we were able to have twins. I'll share it with everybody a little picture. Yeah. A very, very old picture. This is a very, very old picture of the kids who, with doctor's help, were able to... We were able to have. And then we were able to have one child, the old fashioned way, as they say. There's a nice idiom for you, the old fashioned way. Yes, unnatural, without any medical assistance. So the interesting thing with our story is we did a lot of journeying and helping to make meaning that infertility was part of our story, right? We were able to find meaning in that. Well, then we were able to have a child without medical help. So did that mean we weren't? That was that something we had to let go of? And eventually we just had to kind of come to grips with the complexity of our life story that we didn't necessarily fall into this clearly defined category. But that doesn't mean these things didn't happen to us and it didn't shape who we are. Yeah. Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah. So Liz, do you have people in your life who, I mean, besides me, I'm in your life. People in your life, is this like something that you would say like would help you? How would you take something like this, like learning about this common and how would you? Well, I will say like because they're, first of all, because there is this sort of stigma about talking about this, I don't feel comfortable sharing other people's stories without their permission in this conversation on YouTube, right? But I do feel comfortable saying that I do have, I have a couple friends and then some people very close to me who have had problems with infertility. Some people who have had just multiple miscarriages, even, yeah, and have been trying for a very long time. And for me, it's really difficult because we did not have this problem. But it does sort of, when the program goes through, really, there isn't a lot of things that I can do for someone to help them have a child, right? There just isn't. I can't provide medical treatment or fix a problem. But the really important thing that I took from this program is that just being there as support is what I can do. And as a person who didn't have this problem, maybe not being there when I'm not needed, you know? Because I feel like some people, if they're in that position, if they are having problems with infertility, they don't necessarily want to hear about how your kids are doing or maybe they don't want to talk to someone like me who didn't have this problem. Maybe they want to have this time where they talk to people that can understand them and can understand their issues. So that was what I took away from this program that I could do. Yeah, that's a good point. I remember thinking, like, because there's really no right thing. Because I could say, oh, we're not that fragile. You can tell us about your kids. And at the same time, I'd be like, I don't want to hear about your kids. So like, there's really nothing there's no person you want to be and the person you are. Exactly. The feelings that you want to have and the feelings that you actually really do have. For sure. For sure. Well, I think that if, if, if you want, so this is where we're going to ask for you to make a comment in the, in the comment section, but only if you want. Tell us, you know, if you've struggled with infertility or someone you know has struggled with infertility, please. Or even if you don't, if you haven't, if you haven't any experience with that, like, if you know, like, is there help in your area? Like, is that the sort of thing that, like, people do support? Yeah. I mean, I, I just hope that this conversation normalizes if someone is watching this and feels alone, that they know that there are people out there. And that maybe someday, you know, just like we were going through it and someday we, we said, maybe someday we can help somebody else and let them know that they're not alone, that they can do the same thing and let somebody else know that you're not alone. So maybe you can just write, you're not alone in the comments. That would be really sweet. Yeah. Oh, how wonderful. Well, with, with that, I mean, because we always talk about how spotlight is such a community, right? Like around the world. There have got to be people who are listening now who have, who have issues with infertility. And yeah, so yeah, you're not alone. And we're with you. And yeah, all these people in the comments are with you too. So yeah. And then I, then it feels bad to say, you know, like this video and share it. But yeah, do be a part of our community here. We hope that you've listened to the program. Yeah, check out some of the links below about related programs. And yeah, let us know what you think. And thanks for joining us. Listen, watch, practice, learn, spotlight out.