 You are welcome back to the breakfast on PlosTV Africa. It's now time for our first big conversation today. We're basically following up on a conversation that began many years ago, but really on Tuesday last week we know that 17,000 governors gathered in Asapada Delta State to decide what next steps to take regarding open grazing and insecurity in the estate. We know that the resolutions reached by the Governors of Southern Nigeria and Nigerian State last week are still reverberating across the country. The most talked about of them is the ban on open-graison across all 17 southern states. In response to this, the Mieti-Ala cattle breeders' association of Nigeria, Macban, wants Northern Governors to work out a solution for nomadic cattle rhares. mae'r reafmng shadeharu'r grwyddoaeth i'r rhagion ar gyfer byd a grannu yn ddechrau, a uwch ychydig i ni'n teimlo i'r chaddysgu. Dyna, y rheifio yng Nghymru, Mac Ban, ingeni i mi ddifetur hwnnw! Gorffodd, Ofman gweithio i mi ddifetur hwnnw, yn adog hynny i mi ddifetur ybydd! Ofman, rydych chi'n edrych. Roedd yng Nghymru, dwi'n meddwl i'r gweithio'r ddofydd i mi? Merhaeth yw hwnnw! Phaen, ddifetur! Rydyn ni chi'n ddim yn sgwrdd ar y masygl a chael yn un fwaith. Rydyn ni'n amgylched i'r Gymru, a'r Gael Sorgwyth Gwanaeth. A'r Gael Sorgwyth Gwanaeth yn ystafell autaith, a'n d sufficiente'n synnyddu i fwynd yn yn ei chael newydd. Wel, at rydych chi'n gweithio yn gwyfnodio, roedd y Gael Sorgwyth Gwanaeth yn y chael ddechrau? Rwy'n d y gall, mae Gael, efallai hyn i'n ffrasilu fe gyd yn ystod. Government is by implication of land by the state. So free storage for this is raised by 17th northern governments. I think this call for serious attention. That's why I am falling on the northern governors to open up the typhoon with the southern counterpart. So that they can come up with a situation isgwyl iawn y dynnu sylweddol yn meddwl i'r gyferfyrdd a'r gweithio'r ddau yn y ddweud. Mae'r panfyrdd yma yn ei wneud eisiau ei cofnod o gyfnod o'r ddweud yma. Mae'r ddweud o'r ddweud yma yn y gyferfyrdd yn y ddweud. Mae'r ddweud yma yn y ddweud, ac yn y ddweud yma yn yr ddweud. Rather than making it look a sort of a regional or a sectional problem, considering the current security situation in the country now. And this personalist that we talked about are also citizens of this country. They also suffer from the hands of criminals. Time into the nose, whenever you hear about Ben Dithry or Catherine Russellian, the personalists remain at the receiving end of these biases. This is the fact that they are used mostly found among the criminals. So crime doesn't discriminate between five religions. There is nobody that is not found in crime among the communities of this country. And you cannot call empire race or an anti-community for crimes perpetrated by Siw. So my call on the Northern Governance is to discuss with their southern counterparts, make them see a respect to the constitution of this country. Make them see these personalists are also bona fide citizens of this country. Make them also understand that not all facilities are criminals. Let them come up with something that can be generally acceptable to both the North and the South, and to both farmers and others in the country for the interests of peace and unity of Nigeria. Okay, there's also something mentioned in the write-up, and it is about activating the grazing reserves in the North. I quickly also share what you're referring to there. Is there enough of grazing reserves in the Northern States that can accommodate all headers across Nigeria? Yeah. By records, we have over 400 areas designated for grazing in the northern part of the country that are full grazing reserves. These areas are areas set aside for grazing reserves of the harvest. And these areas all put together, about an area of about 5 million hectares. These grazing reserves are there by due to things like the climate change, desert encroachment, neglect on the part of class administrations. These grazing reserves were allowed to determine usually a sort of, because the dams that are in the grazing reserves no longer hold water. The grasses that are there have given way to unfulachable ones that cannot be consumed by the cows because of lack of maintenance. And most of some of these grazing reserves have infrastructure in them. They have dams. They have nomadic schools. They have bednare clinics. They even have many collection centres in some of them. But all these things, due to lack of maintenance in the North, they were allowed to dilapidate. So all that we are saying, why can't the Northern Governance give attention to the development of these grazing reserves as an interim measure? I mentioned, I re-emphasized as an interim measure because the only option out of this crisis of farmer harder in this country is for the hardest to become settled in one place, either under an arrangement or whatever model you call it. But there has to be a settlement model for the hardest in the country for us to achieve a lasting peace between farmers and harders. But ranching or whatever settlement model is going to be a long term to be achieved. So in the interim, before attaining to that as a process, why can't we begin to develop those areas designated for grazing that we have in the northern part of the country? Even if we want to do a model of ranching or any form of settlement, it also requires a land. These are the land that can be used to establish whatever model of ranching you have in the country. The grazing reserves are there. Why can't the Northern Governance pay attention? Why can't the federal government assist the Northern Governance so that attention can be paid on the development of these grazing reserves? After all, what is pushing the pastoralists to the southern part of the country? Is it not for water and pasture? They move on a daily basis looking for water and pasture for their house because this is all they know. They inherited a primitive system of animal harmony from their forefathers because there was no attempt to try to train them to try to transform them into the modernized ones. They don't even know the benefit of the modernized ones. They are still holding the outdated species of cows that are not wearing much and are giving output or milk of not more than five liters. So they don't know. Why can't the first government not do anything to transform the livestock business into a modernized one? Still, they value the quantity of the cow more than the quality of the cow because they inherited it from their parents. They also want to die and leave so many cows for their children to inherit. Not minding the quality of the cow. They don't very much care about the quality of the cow. What they are content is the quantity because it is the number of the cow you have in a society that engages your importance in the society you live. So, you see, these are things that can be done gradually through sensitization, through training, and when you develop the grazing results, you provide water and postage. They won't go anywhere. They will be attracted to come and stay in those grazing results. And it is only when you get them staying in their large numbers in one place that the government will have the opportunity to train them, to teach them other skills to give them the opportunity for education. And what have you? But where you leave them room-dewy, looking for free first time, scattered when you can, it's not possible for the general government to train them. It's not possible for any government to even teach them other skills other than the livestock rearing as the only source of livelihood that they have. It's not possible for government to even educate their children. So, settlement is the final option out of this problem that we have. But as a long term, but in the process of the settlement, let's begin to develop these grazing results. Let's make them attracted to the personalism so that they could come and say it is only when you give them in their large numbers that we give them education. We give them training. We take good care of their cows, which is the benefit of modernized animal husbandry. We show them what 50 cows can do to them that 500 cows cannot do to them in the present modern world. So, these are the things that we are calling on the Northern Governance to pay attention to. All right. So, Mr Oesman, you've talked about how there's actually grazing reserves in northern states and how, you know, there's, they're encrypted to schools and hospitals and, you know, all the things they need to make sure they settle. But the lack of maintenance has made these pastoralists move from the north to the south. So, you're basically saying it's a failure on the part of the Northern Governance, why the situation is what it is today. You say? I said, are you then saying it's a failure on the part of the Northern Governance to maintain the grazing reserves, to educate the pastoralists that's causing what, you know, the issue we have today? Yes, to some extent, yes. But this is a problem inherited from the first succeeding administrations. These grazing reserves were allowed to develop over a long period of time. Let me give you an example of one grazing reserve in Placo State and what is a grazing reserve. And what is a grazing reserve? We have 18 dams, 18 water dams that none of them is working today. They are all silted with sand. They are no longer whole water. So, this is the kicker in whatever grazing reserve you visit today in the northern south of the country. The dams are there, but they don't hold water. The palatable grasses that the cows consume are no longer there because the cows mostly come from the rice in Hungary. So, in the first or second week of the rain, immediately the new grasses begin to come out. They are forced by hunger to begin to feast on those new grasses. And by feasting on them, they obrude them from their roots. So, the grasses were not allowed to develop and to grow and drop seeds for next season. So, through this process, all the grazing reserves had become useless. They no longer provide the palatable grass that are used by the cow. So, the grazing reserves are gradually taken over by un-palatable ones that are allowed to grow and develop drop seeds for next season. So, the un-palatable ones are taken over by the entire forest. So, this is the problem that we have. So, why can't we make them attractive? So, to some extent, honestly, I see it as a failure of the northern government to develop these grazing reserves for the interests of the harvest we have in this country. Okay. So, Mr Othon, you're basically saying, you know, now that we basically all agree on, like, oh, we understand your point of view, are you then saying the response I've been seeing from, you know, the Senate and other quarters, blaming southern governors for taking a stand to ban open grazing in this state should end? I mean, people should stop blaming southern governors for taking this decision because the North can actually do something to fix it. I didn't get your question there. I said, are you then saying, if you agree that the issue we're having right now with open grazing is a fault of the northern governors, are you then saying that people should stop blaming southern governors for deciding to end open grazing in this state? Well, as far as this question is concerned, I don't have much comments on it. I don't know why the southern governor decided for that. But whatever is the reason, all we are saying is they should also understand that not all the fossilists are criminals. Okay. One, two, we should also understand that these fossilists are bona ffais cwcwysus of this country whose rights are free but ladies are also supposed to be protected. This is all we are saying. But since they have come together, come out with a common position. I also, as a civilized person, say that this position should not be ignored by the northern governors. Northern governors must sit with their counterparts and brainstorm. See how they can come out with a common position that can be workable for both the North and the South that can be workable in each and every state of the country. Either open grazing, either end open grazing, either settlement whatever they decided, at least there has to be a common position between all the governors for the peace and unity of this country. All right. I'm going to start with asking if your views this morning, and of course the views of Miatiala encouraging the northern governors to activate the grazing reserves or reactivate the grazing reserves in northern Nigeria. If this is a view that maybe Miatiala should have had a long time ago, because I remember in 2018, Miatiala was completely against the Benue State Governor for banning open grazing in the state and Miatiala had said that that was going to lead to crisis and some other things. So should Miatiala have remembered the grazing reserves and activating of grazing reserves as early as 2018? Mr Hoffman, can you hear us? Hello? Can you hear us clearly? Yeah, you see what? I'm asking if the decision that Miatiala is taking now, and of course they're asking the northern governors to activate and reactivate grazing reserves in the north, shouldn't they have had this same reaction in 2018 when the Benue State Governor banned open grazing in the state? You see, the law of Benue State, as far as we understand, we don't think the law was made, was intended to correct these things, because even by the mayor's title of the law, the law says anti-open grazing are written establishment law. So two things are involved there, stocking open grazing and establishment ranges. So whoever is responsible for drafting this law has to have these two things in mind. So you cannot implement the open grazing prohibition without the establishment of the ranges. So there has to be a time to be given for whoever wants to establish rights in Benue before you even begin to implement the open grazing prohibition. But what happens in Benue is the implementation of the open grazing prohibition even without given attention to the establishment of ranges. So these are the loophones we have in the Benue law, and if you go into the law, if you see the criteria aside for what to acquire rights, it's almost totally impossible for our personalists to acquire rights in Benue. So we believe the law is deliberately done to test our own personalists in Benue State, and they are all out of Benue State now. So, but for the Northern Governance, this has been what we have been educated for. And living in the Northern Governance, coming to the federal government, kind of the federal government come up with a policy that can make it mandatory on all these governments to begin to do things that will correct all these things. We have a national assembly. Why can the national assembly sit together and come up with a legislation that will lay this matter first, once and for all for the interests of this country? This is an issue that has started gradually, but it has now achieved a national security situation in the country, not only in the southern part of the country, even in the northern part of the country. The problem is there. So why can the national assembly give this problem attention so that they can come up with a legislation that will lay this matter first? Why can the Northern Governance rule the National Executive Council of State, since with these state governors, so that they can all discuss, brainstorm, come up with a common position that can be acceptable, generally acceptable and workable for all the farmers in all the states across the country? We already have a lot of security problems in our house that will not allow any other new thing to come and also add injury to the ones that we already have. Even the Southern Governance have a lot of security situations. It's always on the news that police stations are being attacked in so many states by some groups. Houses are attacked by some groups. Why can't they pay attention on these groups as well, rather than divert attention and create another problem? But whatever it is, all we are saying is let the Northern Governance, for the interests of peace, sit with their counterparts so that they can come up with a common position. Let the federal government as well be up and doing in bringing an end to this farmer-harder conflict or this open grazing or settlement model or whatever you call it. We are saying this because we believe the hardest are the ones affected by all these connections we see in the country. But because it is not reported in the media, they are the ones affected by cattle wrestling because they are the sole owners of cattle in this country. Today they lost over 3 million cows as a result of cattle wrestling. So many families were rendered poor. Today they are the ones kidnapped. Before you kidnapped one personality in the city, I believe you and me, 10, 20, 30, 50 of them must have been kidnapped in the forest on a daily basis. They silently take the cows to the market, sell, come and pay ransom to pray others and tell them or their families. They are the ones affected by banditry. You may have thought on a daily basis that whenever bandits attack, you hear of the rest of so many cattle. Who are the owners of these cattle but the rest of them? They are the first to release. So we are really in a situation, in one other hand, we have seen as culprit while we see ourselves as typical victims of this crisis. I can give you an example in the United States in one day, at the beginning of February, in just one day, 1,721 cows were wrestled in one day and they have banished in thin air. No traces up to today. Just imagine how many families were being affected by this. So this has shown that some of the media are not having it because some of the media houses are lopsided because some of the media houses are even the ones that are aggravating this problem. They have almost succeeded in profiling as preferring the personalist for genocide. It has almost started now because of the media negative profiling. The personalists are the worst affected by this crisis. All that we are saying, the only option and solution out of this crisis is for these personalists to get settled so that they can also endure, I mean things like any other system. They should get settled so that their children can be educated. They should get settled so that they will be trained on other skills apart from the cattle rearing as the only source of lovely hope. They should get settled so that they could know the benefit of having few cows that are beneficial rather than having a lot of cows that are not beneficial. It is important that they constantly learn more than anyone has been in the system in the world today. Yes, well we would see how of course this message is passed to the Northern Governors like you've said. The message is directed to the Northern Governors to activate the grazing reserves in the estates and stop waiting on the federal government. That's a message from Mieti Alla to Northern Governors, Netafelix. Yes indeed, and we know that the other group, the Mieti Alla Hori group is basically saying that condemning the south for this decision and saying they would get their own northern state and break away from Nigeria if the southern Governors decide to ban open grazing in the estates and basically chase them out of the south. I mean this is what the Mieti Alla Cattle Hori is saying here and that's by the National Secretary of the group Alhassan Saleh. Do you agree with what they're saying? Well, as you have said, this is a statement coming from the other Mieti Alla group, which is the Mieti Alla Cattle Hori. May I represent the Mieti Alla Cattle Hori Association of Nigeria? So if you have any question that needs clarification and answer, why can't you direct it to the Secretary of that group? Do you support your colleagues in what they're saying? Well, if you have any question that is going to be regarding the other group, why can't you contact the other group so that you can get more clarification from them? I just wanted to know if you have similar... You have already had my position, so this remains my position. For the other group, leave the rest of the unposition as well. All right, and I think finally you would like your quick thoughts on President Muammar Dabuari and of course the way that the presidency has handled the issue concerning cattle breeders and the issue concerning open grazing in the last few years. I'm asking finally about the president, Muammar Dabuari. I want your reactions to the way that the presidency has handled this issue in the last couple of years. Do you think that's also part of the blame? Well, you see, this is a problem that he also inherited. This is a problem that was allowed to linger for quite some time, even before the emergence of this government. And we believe this government has tried to solve this problem by coming up with the national lifestyle development plan by trying to implement the document of national lifestyle development plan in some states. I also believe that some states are already beneficiaries of the national lifestyle transformation plan. But what I want you to understand today, over 300 billion was spent as an intervention to the agronomy sub-sector of agriculture. Neglecting closely the lifestyle sub-sector, up till now we have not had up to about 250 million spent on the lifestyle sub-sector of the economy. Let there be a balance between the agronomy and lifestyle sub-sector by the federal government. Let the federal government pay attention to also put a decision, put a lot of integration on livestock so that they could strike a balance between the agronomy sub-sector and the lifestyle sub-sector of the economy. But this problem is a problem that was inherited by this government. And for quite some time we have not seen a government that has even tried to begin to solve this problem by trying to establish modern ranking. It is only the Goharic government that has tried to establish modern ranking because there is a national lifestyle transformation plan that is being implemented today in states like Adamawa, Bondi, Yobi, and some other states. So the federal government is funding for the establishment of a settlement model in some states. It has started. But then this is going to be a long term solution. In the interim, let the federal government pay attention to the development of the results so that they could be attractive to the personalists. Even if the rankings are established, how many personalists can they contain? They cannot contain more than 5% of the personalists we have in the country. But the beauty of it is it will serve as a model for the other personalists to begin to see the benefits of having exotic cows that give an output of about 30 to 50 litres of milk per cow per day against the ones that they have that are given just 3 litres of milk per day. And they will be offered to see a cow that is weighing maybe 500 to 600 kilograms per cow against the ones that we have that are weighing a maximum of maybe 100 kilograms or 200 kilograms of milk. So the model will give them the opportunity to even begin to learn how to also grow their own grass, their own pasture. They will begin to learn how to acquire land to also begin to establish their own branches. Last two years, after our annual end of year making, we have making mandatory on all the sentiments of my eti allah to acquire land even if it is one hectare. Let us begin to develop our own more branches so that the other personalists can learn from us. Let's acquire one, two, three hectares of land. Let's think through a local fence. Let's think our own way. Let's propagate our own pasture. Let's begin to produce pasture. Let's keep two, three, five cows in our own small landings. So let the personalists who are roaming the world begin to see how our cows are becoming fattened, how our cows are being out for a million because movement is also emanating them, is depriding their milk outposts, is also making them skinny without much meat. So we have made in mandatory of our leadership at the national asset to begin to establish small ranking so that we will begin to keep our members by example. Let them begin to see it from us that we have small ranking that we have established and our cows are looking good and we take care of them and they are daily eating fresh grass and taking good water. This model that the federal government is funding, they are very good, but it's a long time something in the interim. Let the federal government begin to develop these results. All right, Baba Othman, very fresh in hearing your views. Thank you very much for speaking with us this morning. Thank you again. We look forward to having another conversation with you as quickly as possible. Thank you very much. Thank you. Have a great day. Thank you. Okay, so basically now it's to wait and see what the northern governors would say about this. If they would, you know, meet sometime soon. And let's hear the opposition regarding reviving the grazing reserves like Mr Othman has said and amongst other decisions that the southern governors reached last Tuesday. So yes, we'll take a break here and continue our discussion of national issues when we return.