 a mae'n gyd yn diolch ar gyfer y gweithloedd gydag, Alex. Hefyd ar hyn, ac hefyd yn fawr i'n meddwl i chael y cyd-oedd y cyd-oedd. A oeddwn i'n gweithio ar y cyd-oedd o hynny, ac mae'n gweithio ar y cyd-oedd. Oni'n gweithio ar gyfer y cyd-oedd. This is very important to me, as you can see Alex is at home, along with a few other people who are also at home because travelling was becoming difficult. I'm stepping into the host role, Alex is now on the panel, we have some other panel members, and we're going to start talking about that open sourcing. Felly, y gallwn gwneud y gallwn ymweld, yw'n gweithio'r panelau i'w gweithio'n gweithio. Rwy'n gweithio'n gwneud yma ychydig o'r relasiadau o'r oesbryd. Rwy'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio oesbryd yn 2020, oedd yn ni'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio. Rwy'n gweithio'n gweithio a'r cwestiynau'n adnod yw Baddie. Rwy'n cael ei wneud yn Nede channel i'r gymryd chwysgwys i'r rei'r Llyfrgell Gwybrion a'r Llyfrgell Gwybrion. Fel ddim cael ei wneud yn 2007, ac lle ddim cael ei ddim yn hollu'r hollu yn 2015. Felly, roeddwn i eu weithio ym 8 sy'n rhoi wedi'i ardal i'r hollwys i'r gyflwyno. ac felly rydw i'n gweithio gael yr unrhyw uned i'n gwneud, ac mae gennym am y ddweud a'r leisiau i'r lluniau yn gyfrinsig ac yn ddweud i'r lluniau i'r gennym. A oeddwn i'n ddweud yn ddweud i'r lluniau i'r lluniau i'r lluniau i'r ddweud, ac yn y cyfnod, oherwydd i ddweud i'n ddweud, Ac we all know from previous times that open source wins. Certainly. When there is recessions, recession and things are going. In the direction where people have the little money and be careful how they spend it, then we are certainly seeing open source grow. So I think the future is bright for open source if you think about it. Thank you. Can we move on to Alex himself? Yes, so first of all, Rachel, thanks a lot for letting me treat you please. The idea was being all of us on the run there, but the circumstances have changed and I wasn't feeling comfortable to force everyone to travel to the conference. So thanks a lot to be there and please be safe. So I'm Alex Moreno. I work for Acre. I've been working 12 years and a half in this company. I'm a small few know because it's a local company. I've been technical at Acre for five years. So I'm an engineer for 15. I've been in Drupal 12.833 years, which is 12 years of demos that says the local file. And in open source I've been like 20 years. I started doing the demos parties and things like that in my university. And I was amazed of the power of this thing. Suddenly someone has an idea and we are able to share this. It's really a year recording in the world, right? But we will go into the day and do this on the Sunday when I think that has changed a lot for the good. But at the same time, I share the optimism of body, but I think we have to be careful because there are some dangers, there are some things that we should be careful about in terms of, yeah, it's very successful, but predicts die because of that. And that's why I kind of try to open the idea of having this on day one. OK, that's great. Can I move on to Ariel? Sure. Hello everyone. I'm sad that I can't see you all in the room there. I'm actually not too far away in the sub-west of Bristol. Welcome to my kitchen that I work from. So have a look at all the lovely fridge magnets at the places that I've been. So I'm relatively new to open source. I have been a, I'm first, I'm a designer, so I'm not a person who codes typically, though I have been in the past. But I'm a designer, I've been a designer for like 10 years now, and I've recently, three years ago, started to learn about open source through connections with my deaf team, so I was working with. And then working at an open source humanitarian non-profit tech company that was based out of Kenya called Ushahidi, and they made open source tools for human rights cases, so things like crisis response, street harassment in different countries, and election monitoring in places where democracy is well placed, places have problems with democracy at the moment. So, yeah, we're in a humanitarian open source tech tools, and I also am part of a volunteer organisation called Open Source Design that's been going for about five or six years, and this is like a group of designers interested in open sourcing whichever way shape or form. So, I'm coming at open source from a slightly different angle in the sense that I'm a traditionally not well represented function design within open source, and also the humanitarian aspect, which when you are creating open source stuff and you're also non-profit sustainability of your organisation is incredibly difficult. So we'll have hugely optimistic that we're moving in the right direction, I believe 100% in the ethos of open source and rightfulness in general. I still think that there's a lot of work that you need to make it more inclusive and accessible, and yeah. Okay, well, thank you very much. So, could we move into the room now and speak with Jen? So, I'm Jen Ashley. Most of the work I do nowadays is on diversity inclusion with a specific focus on women in tech. I'm retired, I retired already. Had a corporate career, ran my own companies, then decided on my second retirement that I'll just focus on the texting in London, and I was initially running a lot of tech meetups which are focused on the general profile, which is highly male dominated, but then after a few years I said I should just refocus my time, passion and energy into getting more women in tech. Brilliant, thank you. And the last of our analysts, Gabbo. Okay, I'm Gabbo Roici. I also work at our queer. I have been doing open source for more than 20 years. Actually, I started in open content when I was in high school and we were writing that in-hand area on how to build websites, which is why I got into Google. Wow, I did that. And the reason I had a possibility to do that when looking back after it's more than 20 years is because I had this middle class wide privilege that my parents were providing me with enough support that I could spend my time on doing these interesting things and learning and joining communities and building stuff instead of, I don't know, being at the grocery store and filling shelves. So I became increasingly aware of this privilege that I have. That's something that I noticed in open source communities is that we are primarily loaded with people that have some kind of these privileges and we have a hard time to figure out how to get people who don't have those privileges to get involved. And in terms of when they're open source one, there's a very interesting example and very current example is the Hungarian government set up a website for tracking coronavirus news and cases and it's been built on your own. So, Hungarian community is all over the case of trying to figure out which models they use and how they do it. Interesting. So, yeah, it's in one, you know. Thank you, Gabba, and thank you for the whole panel for taking your time to do this. And from your homes, I think some home officers I've never seen there before either, so that's kind of cool. Okay, so for the audience's benefit and to remind our panel as well, the way that we're going to work this is I've got a couple of questions here. So I'll read out the question. I have a primary person on our panel but I want to forward that question too. I'll also ask the other panellists that if they wish to add some further comment to whatever the primary speaker is, then just kind of please raise your hand and join into a conversation between you. I'm also going to watch the audience here and that's the audience. If they've got any comments they wish to add, if you can please raise your hand, I shall try and help get your comment into the conversation. What I'll have to do for the benefit of the tape, the tape, how old am I? So for the benefit of the recording, I shall probably repeat the question so that it gets heard if that's okay and then we'll take it from there. So first question then. And especially because Alex actually had recently raised this panel for Triple Camp London. I'd like to ask Alex what does open source has won mean to you? Alex. Yeah, let me open with personally my co-worker. That's so cute. The name is Trufa, where I've been calling is Traffit in Spanish. Sorry, my mum was doing this. So why have won us? So we think like 20 years ago we started talking too much about my age. When we started on the years, I was talking about the new parties and organizing things for university. We were trying to introduce this thing called open source, and no one knew at that point what was this about. And people were looking like you're kind of hippie or you know, we are at university, we are working on Java, these kind of cool technologies that we are going to be on the enterprise. What is this open source? You are giving it for free. You know, we have moved from that conversation to nowadays everyone using it. And if you don't think you are using it because you are winning those, you are totally wrong because just connecting to the internet, you are using protocols that are based on open source. That's amazing. That means that, yeah, we have worked, but at the same time, this is putting a lot of pressure on the ecosystem as it was saying before. We are seeing companies like Microsoft, Facebook, Amazon, they are opening a lot of open source projects and they are sharing their code, but what I think is, is that really a contribution that is helped in the communities that, you know, or it's just peanuts if you see what I mean, right? OK, is there any more hand though? I didn't see any, anyone got anything to say? Hand on to that. No, but I agree with, I actually want to take this example of Microsoft. You know, I think it is now two years or something like that where they decided to start open sourcing a lot of their tools, including their .NET framework, their Visual Studio code, and of course, buying GitHub. And for me that was like, you know, that was the open source as one. You know, having that giant that was actually on the opposite, taking back staff with the new CEO. So I think that's great, a great example of just the same as I hear what you were saying, and it's just, you know, we are all over in there. So that was, that's my best example for it. OK, well thank you. Any comments from the audience on the concept of open source has one? Cos I've realised they can't see both the screen and the audience at the same time. OK, so, Finn. Yeah, I just think that working in the public sector, maybe ten years ago, you know, even five years ago, we wouldn't have seen the exceptions of open source in, you know, being specified in procurement, you know, activities where there is specifically one open source, such as GDS in the UK, where I think that has demonstrates. Yeah, so what Finn is saying in front of, I don't know if you can hear me, and maybe you can tell us this if you can hear, Finn. But what Finn is saying is particularly in the open, in the public sector, even five years ago, you would never have heard open source mentioned or being considered very much, exceptions in quite radical kind of open source, public sector areas. But now it's the default is what you're saying. Getting that? Getting that? Yeah. OK, that's really cool. OK, so let's move on a little bit. So, we have all these people using open source and almost it becoming a default in many areas. I think what I'd like to move on to is the second question here and is, well, is this current situation, is it actually sustainable? Do we have enough makers to balance our takers, the people who are using open source and the people who contribute? Gabo, can you open that one for us? I don't think we have enough. So, when can you have enough? So, I think there was a very, very high visibility issue with the open SSL software, the Hartley bug, that was causing massive disruptions on the internet everywhere and that's why they exposed the open SSL project to having very few maintainers and relying on very few dedicated people to keep the software alive and when that happens, a lot of companies sign up and pledge support but it happened on a more crisis basis, right? So, some crisis happened and it exposed the problem and then it became better and there's been some of those crisis with Drupal as well in the past when our servers melted down and then we put up a web page on people.org that we can serve anything here because our servers melted down and the companies came together and funded the new servers and that's where the Drupal Association started. So, there's been cases like this that exposed that we need more people involved and I think we also need to take better care of the computers that are involved with our software so one of the things that we need to do better is to accept and even celebrate when people go and take time off to go work on something else. We need to foster a culture where there is not an expectation of constantly working on all the tickets can be on a reason, some people have an easier desire for perfectness to do that. So, in one sense, we need to acknowledge the scope of work and the number of people that we have. We need to celebrate people going off. We need to be very proactive with getting more people involved to have fresh eyes and fresh energy on the software that we're working on in the communities. Yeah, that's a good point, Gower. Especially when you talk about the maintainers, I think there is a lot of pressure in them. I'm just thinking of one Japanese employee that I discovered that he's working on 200 projects. For free, he's having his work. On top of that, he's maintained 200 projects. Jeff is a superhuman, I'm overwhelmed with five, but I don't think that's sustainable or even for a superhuman to make everything. Sorry, I just have to come in on this, because I don't know yet as well, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, but it really doesn't surprise me that you use the term man that is a person that is contributing to that. But it doesn't surprise me that it's a man because one of the things that I think about in open source contribution a lot is how overwhelmingly the representation is of typically men, people that identify as male, and how that correlates to me with the research and the work that I've done around people that are primarily the carers within households, and they do a lot of the, there's some typically women or the not men, they do the carering and do the maintenance of the household, and it's nice to talk to my male developer colleagues about this, like, well, you're a country to sort of a computer and who's doing this, that, and the other to do the household, and they're like, oh yeah, my wife, and I was like, oh, isn't that nice? For you. So it gets a bit painful that this is celebrated as well, like the fact that these people have, you know, the ability or the, it's not the ability, they're privileged to be able to do that largely because somebody's lack of privilege to be able to do that. I totally agree with you, and I think that when we need to get to if we are going to answer the questions about, like, do we need more makers, I think we have to do that through the organizations, and that's where we have to do it, because I remember the time when Gabor and I and a couple more people we were doing through Europe, and of course, like, you know, the best thing that happened there was that we had a lot of companies that were supporting us, but at the same time we were also spending a lot of time away from our friends and family while doing it. So there was somebody that actually lost, you know, and it was either our colleagues at work or it was our family or friends, you know, somebody was actually allowing us where we were just taking back and doing it. You know, I said that I was lucky because I have a really good husband and I have also kids, so I'm really lucky to have a person that supports me in that, but not everybody does, but the key here is also to have organizations to actually support, because we shouldn't be able to do this while we work, and I think that's the challenge of how can we get the organizations to accept contribution as being part of their growth, because then we can actually still stop at five and go and spend time with a family, right? Do you think that there is a combination there of being an organization who both contributes time but also contributes, I'm quoting a previous executive director of mine, contributes treasure to somebody else who can contribute time. So, for example, things like the Drupal Association, you know, I mean, sponsoring that, is a contribution in a sort of abstracted way. Yeah, there are these many ways of contribution and one of them is financial contribution and then we have, of course, the contribution and the code and we have documentation, we have an event organizing, so there are so many things that are a contribution and I'm so happy to be actually part of the Drupal community because we have already realized that there is more than only code as a contribution, so we've picked it out a couple of years ago and therefore our community is also growing, but the challenge is that a company needs to see a value to put their people on a contribution. And if I think about it from our company, we are forcing people, so every work, every code we write or every design we do, we get that paid. So I need to figure out how can I get the contribution, if I put the person on, if I put the designer on a design project, how can I get that back so I can actually pay the salaries in the end of the day. So do we maybe need to take our makers and actually somehow figure out a way how the value can be transmitted earlier because I would be happy to put some reviews about what we're doing today. You know, but like those camps, if it doesn't pay in the end of the month, it's difficult. I mean, this is something that I, in my talks about diversity inclusion. This is kind of the same, that I always call our companies because they really have to be genuine in terms of what they're doing, whether they're supporting open source diversity, you know, it should not just be a box-ticking exercise where they talk about it, whether they're money where they're markets. So definitely, you know, we need to call on more companies to actually be doing that. Races are just coming back. Sorry, I'm coming. I went to close the door because it was noisy. No, but we have great examples. We have so many companies that are already participating, like Acria is one of them. And there's so many more, and there's also a lot of small companies that are pretty much next in Australia. They've been contributing for so long to the product, and we can count. We can just look at the list. Yeah, absolutely. There's some really great ones like that. There's a few different things that were mentioned in that last kind of question, really. One of them was around the more wide variety of roles that were now finally becoming aware of that needed in open source. And I know that Ariel's got a few thoughts on that. I don't know if Ariel's got... Do we have the right people who are actually working in open source projects now? Do we need to always look to increase the number of types of contributors, those design, documentation, project management, et cetera? Can you tell us more about that and what you've seen as good practice elsewhere? Yeah, sure. One thing that I'd like to add to what Betty was saying, though, is I was actually having this conversation with a few different people over the last week, one ex-Red Hat person that runs Life Fest now, and also GitHub last night when they were looking at gathering information about their sponsors, you know, piece of work. And companies and individuals, if it's money or contributions, they're always... if you're part of the open source community as a whole in Europe, kind of the Cody kind of side of things, then it typically shakes down that you will contribute money or time to developer tools related to open source. And I was having these really in-depth conversations with these folks about the fact that non-profit and humanitarian open source exist, but because it's not necessarily a developer tool that the organisations out there, though, using the open source developer tools aren't necessarily also using these open source humanitarian tools. So it's very rare that a humanitarian non-profit open source, which serves a very unique, mission-driven and helping people around the world purpose, don't get as much in the way of monetary funding or contributions from developers because developers don't tend to use it as much. It's more like individual people that are trying to make change to their country's non-profit organisations or people that have no kind of counting interest. So we really struggle in the humanitarian open source side of things because of that kind of sectioning of where we are. We're not, like, a dev tool. We find it harder. If that makes sense, I hope it did. So, as far as the other kind of functions, do we have the right people? I don't want to go into Jen's section, which is about different kinds of diversity. I want to just talk about diversity of role and function, essentially. I really don't think that right now, we have in the open source contributions way, we have anything near the right amount of people and anywhere near the right structures and processes in place or even the welcoming environment. It's just about on the pivot point of being, like, designers are now getting to open source and speaking of open source, like, events, which is great, but, you know, we've been a function of technology for many, many years now and, you know, we help make things a lot better and usable with part of that process and it's always been very strange to me that we haven't been part of the open source process a lot earlier. And things are changing, but again, it's kind of, you know, a slow process in the sense that, you know, we're doing a lot of thought change and the open source design community, which you can find at opensourcedesign.net, a lot of what we do in that community all voluntarily is go to open source events and literally just say, hey, we exist and we want to help out with your open source, so here's where you can find us and put posts on R4 and what you want design help with because we're there to help and we kind of understand open source and we're interested and we get less now than right at the beginning. But at the beginning, you know, we did get things like when we would go to Foster or any big open source like community gatherings, we would kind of get strange looks and be like, well, why are you here? So we're not getting this, we're not getting this much of that anymore. So it's still difficult, but it's changing and it's the same sort of environment for documentation, it's the same, it's actually even worse, there's things like product management as well, there's not even like that open source product manager is like community group as far as I know because I often get asked by product managers how they can contribute open source as well because of being open source design. But I guess what makes it tricky and I'll just keep on this note is that design is not necessarily as simple as raising a single issue or raising like a very kind of restricted fix this thing that can be fixed very clearly with functional code. Design is often a kind of overarching improvement of something. I have a question for you about that, to Ariel. So I think like Drupal really needs a lot of good designers to start working on the project. And I actually, I'm wondering how can we, and this goes back to the point like you have to make a living in the end of the day and we still need you to focus on the topic, you need to create the design system that you want to have. So what would be a way for us to get a lot of designers to come and contribute to Drupal but at the same time not bring you out and let you work for free but instead like figuring out a way to give you credit for it? I won't take too much time on this there's a lot of stuff there to respond to. What I will say is that there are things being done to try and solve that problem or many problems that are within that. I think that at the Open Source Africa Festival that me, Jen and Rachel were at one of the things that they were creating is not only a community around Open Source design there specifically through support from tools like Figma which are obviously not Open Source but they're still supporting Open Waze-ish of sharing and also the banties on Open Source issues they don't want that to just be coding with it they want to open this up to design. There's other organisations that have had this conversation with me and other Open Source design folks about how we make involvement from designers supported and I guess one of the most interesting things to look back on is the way that their last branding change and they tried to do Open Source design with their brand project and they came across a lot of really tricky problems and it's to do with the fact that the design side of things is so new that we don't have things like processes version control ways of critiquing each other within files only now we've seen that happen in our own kind of proprietary software and we're just not really used to it so it's a side process so you won't find a big amount of designers yet to contribute but you will find enough and I think the key thing is to build those technical processes alongside the community side of things so a lot of designers coming in wanting to contribute for the first time on things like Drupal or Cili Ciara and all these kinds of different things what they also need is a supportive community that when they make that kind of contribution and look to their community for what would essentially be like a pull request in their approval or comments system so that they know that they're doing their design work or that solves the problem so a tricky question we'll talk in depth at some point about it I think it's easy to a full panel about just that Yes, I think that would be a really good idea I think there's also this process question most people who came to open source they had a personal interest to scratch and they worked on that area and they resolved it and they they usually pick an area and they can resolve themselves and they continued to be involved when they were successful and you need to grow those people into people that have more of a wide picture of what needs to be done not just like I need to move this from here to there and then I'm done but more of a systemic thinking of okay I don't need a designer for this project to figure out what things get somewhere and if you can grow those people from the individual contributors that they were then they could have the streets creating the community from they are capable of contributing and they would also have the high level picture what we've had had challenges making happen is to get project managers and project managers all new into the open source world because we did not have this footprint and try to involve them that was hard it wouldn't be great if we wouldn't find a way to make that happen because there would be a very valuable way to get more people involved but we could not yet correct that code I wonder because Sergio was mentioning before about all the money or all the efforts going inside this cycle if you get the money from the development and you go back to the development I wonder if trying to spread the money through other areas it will help one that problem trying to help on that but also trying to get the community to be more diverse trying to help other people in coming to the group if I can say like something I think the biggest threat to open source projects is the design the lack of design this is really my personal opinion that I have we see so many great products out there but they just can't do the design part well because they are missing they are really good coding and they are really good technically and they are normally actually much better than many products out there but this is actually if I have any worries about the future of open source it is the lack of good UX and design in these products because they are the product companies if you think about Slack it is just flawless from how we use it and that's why we all like it and love it and we also have other open source projects that are as good so we need to as a Drupal community in my opinion if you talk about Drupal at the Drupal camp we need to focus on this as a community therefore I think that this conversation needs to continue for the next months and we need to do it fast because there we need to improve so do you think we should put a panel in for Drupal Cod in Barcelona? at least at least I can't promise an event before that I'm just going to pause at that moment and see if anybody from the audience has got any questions related to what we've talked about so far because I don't want you to feel left out you're part of this no, not at the moment okay I think we'll move on at that point if that's okay with everyone because we've had some good conversations but I just want to jump on to Jen I know you've got a lot of expertise of experience with looking at a more diverse range of people as well as diverse roles so I'd like to hear how does that actually help open source to actually look wider than just the people that we may have had in the past well in general we obviously want to attract more people into open source because if we just as I was saying earlier guys are maintaining so many different things on its own and what if that person actually gets hit by a bus one day you know that will cause a lot of problems right and I know some actually maintainers who are in that situation so in general we want to attract more people contributing but we also want to make sure that the people that we're engaging are diverse because there's been a lot of studies where any project benefits from having a more diverse and inclusive profile in companies where it's a commercial venture it's been proven that the bottom line definitely benefits from that and my base any project will benefit from having that diverse and inclusive point of view so there's a lot of work that needs to be done not just on getting more people involved but also getting it more diverse than it is right now and I'm actually very happy with what we saw that Rachel Errol and I saw in Africa because there's a really booming community of open source contributors there and I think we should encourage that in any region in every region The thing that I saw there that really struck me was we were talking to a room of hundreds of people interested in open source and they were young really young in fact I did a type of thing when I was speaking and there were a significant number of people that were younger than Drupal they were like 19 years old and I don't want to make Dries feel old but these people were doing open source it was incredible and they're very passionate about it as well oh my god they're passionate and I think we should encourage that that's what's wrong as well as open source Africa I love the open source Africa festival absolutely amazing like Jen said it was one of the most energising places I think I've been around an open source community not to kind of say that other communities are energetic but I think there's something about that quality of new ideas that can come from different places that haven't had the opportunities before and I found the same thing when I was in Taiwan last year for the Open Up Global Summit Festival which was the first one of that event bringing together the whole of Southeast Asia around openness in general so not just development topics but how to work openly with governments and design and any data how to work with data openly as well and then the same I can say the same of the community within India as well because again I went to an event last year where I just saw the community within India the energeticness around specifically humanitarian topics and how we can improve the world using open source as well and the energy there is great and why aren't we making space for I just space for these things so no brainer to me but maybe not It's interesting that you talk about India because actually if you look at the contribution here in Cuba and I'm sure I'm just talking about development that's the world I know right but in the last years you see a lot of effort from these guys from India right and it makes me think about that maybe the efforts of making sure that open source is sustainable is trying to go to the diversification of the communities brilliant yeah oh thank you very much three minutes left I've got one question I just wanted to check if Badi had anything she wanted to add about businesses because Badi being a business owner she mentions some sort of things that businesses should be doing and considering and making possible I don't know if you have anything to add in that in the last few minutes Badi yeah I just want to encourage the only thing there is value so and that has been proven and we are trying to constantly talk about the value that we get and maybe it's not directly in money but their value is like there is a better chance to find good people if you are contributing to a project it's more likely that you're going to get good people that are actually very interested in that because they know that they will be able to contribute when they work for you and you have this visibility and you get this expertise on you as a company so a company that contributes they actually get chosen to work on projects that are maybe more complicated and so on so if anybody is listening to this or watching this afterwards and you own a business and you're not contributing yet there is value we still need to figure out how we can do that even more because the talent is there and I would love to have more talent in my company that would contribute but it still has to be balanced so we can also make a figure out a way how we can give these companies that are already contributing even more visibility in our community keeping that visibility here there is such a thing as the contribution recognition committee that are working at the moment and one of the things that they need to be considering are how they can boost up and make it visible those organisations who really are committing effort it makes a big difference I'm very much in favour of that oh we got a question that's good from the audience just a mark maybe a couple of years ago there was a hike of the knowledge management there were many many confidences about this type of but it was not related to financials it was related to internal knowledge sharing company maybe we can use this kind of knowledge knowledge there are many many many motivation techniques when we talk about how can we motivate people to put any new idea to check that knowledge and it can help for the management as well so to present what the value of the knowledge sharing or the open source development development for the open source techniques so thank you I'm trying to think how to summarise that now for the microphone and I'm not even sure how would you do you want to come down here and summarise it into the microphone just for one minute there was quite a lot of information we've got 4% battery left on this laptop so we will be wrapping up just very quickly sorry, it's my first and that's about just many years ago there was a hike on the IP area on the IP management as well so there were many many confidences about the knowledge management but it was not related to open source it was related how can we share any information or any knowledge inside the company so for example there is a company and there are many many departments and they some department people know that the other department has a kind of knowledge or information or something and how can we improve the knowledge sharing inside the company so how can we spread that put that on a wider open format and maybe it can help because there were many many written investment measurement what is the value if you can share your knowledge and maybe we can use that kind of distinctness or the kind of theories or things I know for the open source because it can help to present the value of the open source thank you brilliant thank you thank you everyone for coming along I kind of expected to have more time for more questions but everyone's done a really good job of talking and I'd like to thank our panel we've finished we've finished over by three minutes now we're over time and I'm in trouble already people holding signs up at me so thank you to our panel thank you to Buddy thank you to Jen thank you to Gabbo so I hope you go back go wash your hands and I will speak to you all later thank you bye