 A srácok, a srácort, a végzők, a mertével, a személyseket, és a személytet. Aztán egy személy érdemeléek üntek, a személyszakási helyeket, a személytet, a srácok, a személytet, a személytet, srácok, a személytet, Right now we have reached the course of the project, an important point in its roadmap, to discuss with an expert group, and in the presence of the international community, a gondolációk, hogy a kezemekre, hogy egyik egy két k suckedájátok, és a nyitott járélyem, cújjként a két klockasztát, hogy a két klockasztát, a kátkúzását, hogy a név szállás mellé. Egyébként mondhatom, hogy az edényeket nagyon érdekes és valójával, hogy a helyeket a helyeket tetszik a helyeket. a következőségek és a különbözőségek is személyebb, de azok azok egyébchét is a konfigyáció és a különbözőségek, de a különbözőségek és a különbözőségek is szükséges, és a különbözőségek és a különbözőségek is szükséges, A témákat ez egy kutatáságot, amit kutatáságot is értegetjük, amikor a kutatáságot értegetjük, és a különböző, és a különböző, de amikor az óraban tudták készítni, és fölhesszük voltak. Én számíta, hogy a személy igazban, a helyzet dolgozik az utazságban. A jelenthez a gyerre, az utazságot a helyzet bármelyre veled a személyeet van, bármelyre szaggálott meg�zést az özők aparecer alakával. és meglátom, hogy ez az első érkezőség, amikor beszéljük a különségeket és a különségeket. Ez a különségeket és a különségeket és a különségeket és amikor beszéljük a különségeket és a különségeket, csak kell akartam különségeket a különségeket és a különségeket. So all in all, this is also an important venture, if you wish for Eden to be part of this work, és ha a hajára a két destroysikbenér sockszálunk, hogy most ma folyаний, hogy nagyon szeretné szemét, és a leguntornagébb érkező responsiát a kicsit kevésivel, hogy ha a két treesbárban, nem כל a leguntornagébb érkező, ugyanúgy kéneim hozzáadni, hogy ezek az összeállói érkező, amelyek, de az összeállói érkező hayat, és a leguntornagébb érkező hayat, és az összeállói érkező, ha this micro credential in higher education. I wish you an excellent meeting and symposium. And again, thank you very much for being with us this morning. Thank you. Thank you, András. és szeretném kérdezni, hogy a panálmárokat akarok kérdezni ezeket. Én kérdettem, hogy kérdettek az alapjával, csak a szépen a panálmárokat kérdezni. Egyébként de Bora kérdezni. De Bora nem kérdezni, És a személyes életeket, lehet a fiatalatokok keresni, hogy mert ezen a kérem. Ezt a kérem, amit kezdett az adóbikonált, személyes életeket is, vagy a fiatalatokok, de hogy a adóbikonált, aki személyes életeket is személyes életeket. Szerepbáláról egy kis Maipülében. Egyekedül amik nagyon újabb találkozott a sefélvel. A fél vele jóált, és azt gondolom, hogy az ampú piros magyar benségek a winkba kívülőségesel entrepreneurul is nem ammunition amikor a különbözőtérésre visszajön, amikor az összekező csináljátok kitácsolj, és maradom a drága. miatt nem álltásomával, de nem akik okézik egy előtt a rekdésben. Aztán az elsőség向zolásról volt a Kanada. A nyomásra észen lehet, hogy egy olyan talális. Pwerkzettek, egy helyzetet különbség tess, de újságot. Aztán megkérdem megik tippoziknyi és rosszú megkérdezésen a Reaganet. Ez egy lenyújra álltási albumatra, és a micropredentiól, nem tudom megnálni magával. Már megjegyek diali Fortune? Nagyon lehet lehet, hogy lehet. Ez neki a furniturek customers. És ez egy helyezzel, de látjuk ezen az élyet a puesnak. Már megjegyek? Eljegyek? Rá? Eljegyek? Tudod, hogy az nem a szemek lesznek, hogy a második pareket elmondók dagágyató? Egyébként az, hogy az egyenedő? Érdemes. Nóban vagyok, Lészbra Maré-Blazske, és én jövök az ismerésült magyar akaromálthatalázomot, a megmínálási technológios különkségek érdemes játélyát a Ultenberg kéremiségére. A Jövök én vagy vígOLDENBIRG, ezben szülelؤavatok a Jövök. A velére jövök egy különksége, akarok benne az embereket a mathára látni, akarok a fokhagymát. És együttlyes érde, Én így számítótSHOZ értejük a külön, amit állítól is egy édve. A Szoctális különből a plátód joining-felló és előtt a csépadra ültấnam. A szoctális különből a másodálikú geélési enyik utána. A II Euromból és Oldenburg alatt stonesjaitjük a szoctális közben, hogy a SSZ is így személyesek shot előbe fiancezt problémában. Hát, szeretettek a négy sparks! Újra, Liza. Újra, nagyon újra. Azt mondtam, Mark. Mark, jól vagyok? Halló, Mark. Jól vagyok? Mark, ha jól vagyok. Mark, jól vagyok. Jól vagyok, Mike. Jól vagyok a signállás, vagy a technóciusz. Mike, jól vagyok? Azt mondtam, hogy a különbözősége jönnek. Igen, Mark nem vagyok. A handic Ori empowered, gyosá Sergeant, nagyrtaktál vonnap. Úgyhogy ény miseem a különbözősége nem olaj a kemond óvárit vagyok. A különbözősége nem olaj a kemond óváoton olaj a kemond óvá hindá coupe Jól�akwhilez ki a tetszik ezen a technÓc Takformaker sessions Tudva merőségrésben, aholztán egy remainingkrzás eBayva automaticus ezt olaj, şörnykrátass, Köszönöm, hogy megyeketettek a kérem. És ez a felszállási felszállás. Köszönöm, Claude O. Aztán számítom, hogy hagydok Haggad. Sziasztok, hogy tudtad a kérem? Igen, köszönöm. Sziasztok. Aztán meg haggad, és szerintem egy kérem láttal a centrum utolában a kérem, és a centrum kérem a kérem és a félhagyta a CAU-t, a kérem, a budapest, de együtt a viennagy, és a kérem, a félhagyta. És én egy kérem az Eden, és egy kérem, hogy egy kérem, hogy egy kérem, és ezt voltak a kéremhetségeket az akadamikányt, a kifogációt, a kéremhetségeket, és úgy nyilván az utána, hogy kérdettek a videót. Szerintem, hogy kérem helyet tudunk néhány lehetni. Meg tudom, hogy kérdik a VF-től. Meg tudom, hogy Mark, kérem, hogy kérdik a VF-től. Mark. Szova azért. Egyszer csinálom, amit kérdek. My name is Mike Brown. I am based at Dublin City University as Director of the National Institute for Digital Learning. I am also an Eden Executive member and also involved in a number of micro credentialing initiatives by the island and on the European Commission's consultation group. So interested to engage over the course of the morning. Thank you very much, Mark. We all know you, I think, and I would like to ask Vlad Mialesku to introduce himself. Yes, thank you. Hello everyone. I am Vlad Mialesku. I am a lecturer at the Polytechnica University of Mishora. I have been working for the Center of Distance Education and E-Learning for the past 10 years. I have a PhD in MOOCs and my research is oriented around e-learning. In the past years I have been involved in a lot of European projects with a component of digital badges and micro credentials. Recently we wrote a proposal for a project where we will coordinate it related to blockchain with another very strong component on micro credentials. Recently I've joined the Eden Map Steering Committee and I am very happy to be here with all of you looking forward to a great workshop. Thank you. Thank you very much, Vlad. And then I just realized that Deborah arrived, so I might ask Deborah to introduce herself shortly. Ok, hello everyone. Sorry, I was late. I was in another meeting which ran over. Yes, so hello everybody. There are some familiar faces here. Several familiar faces. I think I know everybody. So yes, I'm Deborah Arnold. I am International and National Projects Coordinator at ONERGE, which is the French Digital University for Economics and Management. I'm currently coordinating the Erasmus Plus Project ECHO, which is the European Credentials Clearing House for Opening up Education. And we're looking at digital credentials and micro credentials in particular. And some people around the table here, Irina, is a partner in that project at DRBB as well. So we're interested in really linking the issues raised from, and EADTU, sorry George. So we're very interested in linking the findings from MicroHE to the ongoing work in ECHO. Thank you very much Deborah joining us. And last but not least I would like to ask George Eubachs to introduce himself. Yes, good morning George Eubachs. I'm the Managing Director of EADTU. And we are also very much involved in the topic of micro credentials more in relation to our short learning programs initiative and project ESOP on short learning programs. And our European MOOC consortium, as EADTU is running the European MOOC consortium representing Future Learn Fund, maybe Open, and the other it and Openabed. And that respect we have developed a common micro credential framework and are involved in Deborah's ECHO project. Thank you George. We learned it now that we have to learn a lot from themselves because there are so many similar or parallel running projects and they are all concerned in some way the short learning programs or the micro credential issues. So I think it's a very, very good team that just gathered here today. My role is now to present the agenda. We are already at the point when we are over the introduction of the panel members. So it will be followed by an introduction about the context, the contributions of the ICRA-HE projects to the developments of this area and the documents to be discussed and the questions to be answered. This is just the outline. Then it will be followed by a presentation of Dina Zarka about the credit supplement. The learning passport produced by the OE pass project will serve as the credit supplement and Dina Zarka worked in the OE project as well. And then we start the real discussion. This will be organized in two panel discussions. The first part will discuss the first set of questions that concern the produced documents and the developments that we produced in micro-HE. The second panel will be about the future, about the expectations, about the present initiatives already running. And each panel discussion will be organized in two rounds. The first round will be just the primary notes and comments on the documents or the questions raised. And the second one is for the reflections to each other's opinion. Just to approach a kind of a common approach to these questions. And it will be just summarized shortly after 12 o'clock. And I think I will do this role and then close the workshop at about 12.30. So let's start first discussing the context and the documents produced. So the current trends in higher education has got many different aspects. One aspect is that the delivery methods changed. Part of the degree courses are also provided in digital or blended form. And this got a very strong push in the time of the epidemic, the COVID-19. We know that it was a kind of an emergency distance learning, not a well-designed and based initiative. And also in exports to the labor market needs, shorter, more specific, more industry specific courses for the delivery, which also initiated a kind of a mobilization in higher education, when smaller, well-defined chunks are delivered in SLP short learning program, forms like MOOCs, just to make the most impressive example. And that raised the questions how to commercialize and recognize the outcomes of these short learning programs and other learning, open learning achievements with micro credentials. So this gave birth to the concept of the micro credentials. What are micro credentials? Best to get the widest scope. An education credential is a documented statement that acknowledges a person's learning outcomes. A micro credential is a subunit of a credential that could accumulate into a larger credential or degree to be part of a portfolio. Well, I think that these definitions are debated, and there is just a current consulting group clarifying the issue and trying to get just a common understanding of the definition. We noted a short learning program. These are this short degree program. It's a group of courses with a common subject for focusing on specific needs, and typically part of a larger degree, and typically somewhere between 5 to 30 ECTS units. A current recognition of micro credentials is mainly focused on the questions how and under what conditions are they recognized by higher education institutions and in the labor market. I think for both the most important thing that they should allow to explore the micro credentials requirements and evidence of learning. So they should have some certain technical value and the necessary metadata. For the higher education institutions, it has to be accredited and measured in ECTS credit values, and necessarily has to have the same assessment and identity verification or authentication as any part of the respectfully accredited degree program. To make the recognition easier, I think that recognition in the same higher education institution is straightforward and much easier, but on the other hand, if it is about the recognition of the SLP results in other institutions, it should be based on mutual recognition, there are some examples of that, or that should be ensured at a system level, which is not yet developed. What do you mean on quality? To make it very shortly, it just verse a much longer debate. To reach a high quality for a micro credential, the statement has to be distinct, authentic, accessible, exchangeable and portable. I think the whole model is the meaning of this short terms. To reflect on the above needs, we started the micro HG project, and we use micro credentials related to the micro qualifications of EQF. Our focus in this project was the higher education sector. They were learning programs above five SCTS units, and we tried to create a structure, we tried to categorize the different micro credentials that already just are flourishing in the literature. We tried to specify a required metadata system that should facilitate the recognition process in or outside a certain institution. The aims of the workshop are many-fold. First, we have to validate the briefing paper, which was based on a survey. I will talk about it later. The credit supplement, which we use for that reason is the only learning password. The results of the expert workshop, which also contained an overlook to the future or the expectations. It was a master class held in Bled last November, and we tried to form an expect opinion and answer a set of collective questions posed in advance. So, first of all, the briefing paper. It summarized the results of the survey on the use of micro credentials. It's a kind of a state of art review. We asked 100 or over 100 institutions among teachers, students, decision makers, and employers about their opinion on micro credentials. I have to stress that we tried to cover all stakeholders, all role-players in the micro credential ecosystem. And we concluded that institutions lack understanding of micro credentials, partly because there is no widely accepted common definition of micro credentials. The adoption of micro credentials is prevented also by the lack of a common recognition mechanism, even within a country, not to mention among different countries, and also by inadequate resource allocation for SLP adoption and development, which is also influenced by the questions of profitability of starting SLPs. And if profitability runs parallel with the adoption, which is also meaning that there is a good business model to develop and implement SLPs. And last but not least, flexibility, personalization, and recognition are critical when using short learning programs to respond to the demands of the labor market and the high education institutions. The credit supplement is the learning passport developed by the OE Plus project. The credit supplement creates a digital standard format for documenting education credentials in ECTS units in terms of our awarding body, credential awarded, holder of credential, and evidence of achievement. The next presentation by Dina Zarka will describe it in more detail. And third, the masterclass event in Bled. There is a full description of this event, just linked to your invitation. And I don't want to go through all the details. I just would like to quote one very important comment of Maria Sticci Damiani, the lead author of the ECTS user guide, that to be fully aligned with the European high education area, we have to consider adding a new section on micro credentials to the European standards and guidelines like half a page on micro credentials on the basis of the standards. And we need to add a supplement to the micro credential to indicate the learning outcomes, the level, the number of credits, the quality assurance, and the teaching and learning approaches, which is a kind of set of requirements we have to satisfy when we try to build the micro credentials as a part of the credentialing system. The questions addressed in this expert panel are grouped into two big categories. The first category is the documents provided, the briefing paper, the oil pass delivery passport, the results of this Bled expert workshop, the micro-hg meta standards, and the credentify.eu, which is an implementation of the meta data standards in form of a warehouse. And the second part is about the plans, the feedback, the expectations. I mean, what did your institution plan about offering micro credentials in which way, in which subject? What are the concrete plans to recognize micro credentials? It's the other part of the coin, because it's not about delivering the courses, but recognizing micro credentials in which way, in which subject, which is the feedback of the present expert discussion. What do you expect from a user guide on micro credentials if it will be developed for higher education institutions? I think it should be developed in some way to make the roadmap of introducing micro credentials in higher education institutions easier, and to make them easier to recognize all over in Europe. And could you point us any other related initiatives in the field? I think you could see already heard in the introduction. I don't want to list this relation because you should all know that nothing new in it. The potential building blocks of a European approach to micro credentials should include the following parts or issues. It is just a quote from the background paper of the first meeting of the consulting group at the EU Commission, which was held on 10-26 May. There should be a common and transparent definition of micro credentials. There should be a link to the European Qualitation Framework, defining the levels, the learning outcomes. There should be a quality assurance standard for providers and courses. It should be related to ECTS units, defined learning outcomes and workload. There should be a partable recognition for further studies and also for employment purposes. It should have digital tools for issuing credentials, for offering access to micro credentials, to store credentials, to share credentials and guidance. And there should be a business model and of engagement of practitioners. So the micro credentials subject is already on the agent at EU level. It is just mentioned here three very important initiatives. First, there are standards of digital credentials that are being developed through the European Digital Credential Infrastructure of the European Commission. There is the Actions 3 of the Digital Education Action Plan that proposes the integration of digital design qualifications to Europas. That will include an e-port for you an online tool for users to describe their skills, finding interesting jobs and learning opportunities. Some information on working and studying different EU countries and digital credentials, free tools and software for institutions to ensure digital tamper proof qualifications and other learning credentials. I think the last one that are the most relevant for this workshop. And there is also the EU Decision Article 4.6 that specifies that an Europas shall support authentication services for any digital documents or presentations of information on skills and qualifications. So just without summarizing these all initiatives I would like to thank you for joining this expert panel and then I would like to give the floor to Dines Zarka, director of the engineering for education center of BME to have his presentation on the learning supplement. Please Dines, follow me. Thank you everybody. Thank you. Good morning everybody. Good morning everybody. A short introduction. Dines Zarka working in Budapest University of Technology is an electrical engineer and an instructional designer almost for the time now. And I was in the team of working out in a way past learning a sport and test it as well and I would like to speak a little bit about this and I still use my camera freeze but anyone anybody who is not such a type I can initiate it. I hope that I can move the slides. First I would like to if you look at the title that is learning passport as a credit supplement to be used but the credit supplement is something is we don't exactly know what it is why do we supplement? We know the diploma supplement and now we are talking about credit supplement but what is the difference? So the first I would like to talk about the similarity than the difference. So the diploma supplement and the credit supplement are similar because both of them are breaking down a larger entity. When we supplement the diploma then we are breaking down the title of the diploma to subject and the subject with at least the titles and the learning outcomes of those subjects. While in the credit supplement we break down a smaller part of the learning to detail learning outcomes in order to learning experience sometimes. So this is really the internal micro life of learning achievements. The second similarity is that both of them are contextualizing the standardized course or diploma to the given award so in a diploma supplement it is written what was really done during the student's diploma pathway and also this credit supplement is telling exactly what was done so not in theory but in real terms what was achieved. But there are differences as well because as we from credentials into micro credentials then the supplement went from diploma level to credit level and I would like to explore the differences because there are large differences between a diploma supplement and the credit supplement which we used in OEPAS project as a learning passport. When we designed the learning passport we categorized the educational credentials as such in four big categories the formal qualifications like diplomas the non-formal certificates any kind recognitions of skills for example language exam and records of experience a summer placement of a student so out of those four we were dealing more with the non-formal certificates because we were dealing with open educational experience rather the formal things however the outcome is pretty usable in formal environments so just to show you those are the examples of non-formal credentials and we were friends already told about this nano degrees micromasters endorsements non-qualification credentials licenses and batches open batches ops went quite quickly so in the OEPAS project when we were designing the learning passport we wanted to create a digital standard format for documenting an open educational credentials based on ECTS and if we have time and technical possibility I would like to share my screen to go to the OEPAS site to show one learning passport so this learning passport is a little bit different from the diploma supplement because it is defining exactly the awarding body and not only the name of it it is defining exactly the credential that is awarded also defining the user, the holder of the credential but also there are possibilities to give evidence to this achievement now first I would like to talk a little bit about the awarding body so apart from the full name we give the possibility to put here the public key the exact address digital and the physical address of the awarding body if there is a digital stamp or seal of the institution what is the exact accreditation line of the institution and the website or URL of the awarding body that's what I would like to show you with one example later it's a swap of my slides sorry I would like to start with this but this whole structure is a user friendly one standardized using control vocabulary as many times as possible and there is a growing list of shared learning passports sorry about that so then would come the awarding body and then much more information about the educational credential itself so on the first slide we start with the official title of it an identifier of this credential a short free text description of it also free text learning outcome description we would like to categorize the credential like BA or B-R-C-M-A-M-S-C-P-H-D whether it's an ECTS type or ECVET type or other credential type in national context and the subject itself in which context this educational credential was issued but the list is continuing with what are the ways of acquire this credential for example is it a formal, non formal or informal type of education what is the grading scheme even in Europe we have many many different grading schemes to A to D or 1 to 20 or 1 to 5 and there is a possibility to choose a grading scheme in this part of the learning passport the mode of study whether it's online or face to face or blended or what kind of study we also ask in this passport what is the unique of the workload whether it's learning hours or weeks or years what is the assessment method in the credential is it on site or it is an online with identification of the user or online without the identification of the user or other type of assessment method the level of learning which is it in the national qualification framework context is it the European qualification fair work and by this one what is the level for example force level, EQF level number of credit points that was awarded what is the accreditation especially this program what is the homepage of the program and whether this credential is stackable which means is it a part of the bigger credential for example a diploma and here we have some information about the award the student or herself family name date of birth student ID any other specific identification code the date of the award the expiry of the credential if any how many credits were awarded and if there is any supplementary evidence other than the passport you can upload here so those are the information about the holder of the educational credential and the accomplishment and now this is the force part is the supplementary evidence so there is a possible link to the individual credential evidence and also possibility or unlimited further evidences that the learning passport creator can link here and now it was quite easy this four part of the learning passport and I'm just asking Dora whether I can share my screen or you can help me to make this link live I am a host so now I have to find how to share my screen which is video attendies sorry a few minutes of discovering the sharing possibility ok maybe um Dora maybe ok, right what share ok share my screen that's it share and now I would like to just get you a feedback whether you see now we have ok I have already do you see the learning passport now just an aura as I don't see anything just an aura yes or no so normally on my screen we I see the practical management of construct a risk in the construction industry this is the title what I see there are some ok some people are already see that you see the passport ok right so in the passport I would like to show you another learning course that was passported and here the first part of the passport is information about the awarding body and here we see the full name of my university with breaking down to the institute of continuing engineering education the second information is the accreditation of the institution we gave two accreditation one is the Hungarian university accreditation with identifier of the university but also my institute is accredited by ISO standard so we put here those accreditation and if you see there is a website url when you can go further by this ISO accreditation or maybe this is the list of university accreditation in Hungary the second part is the information about the credential itself so the official title of the credential you see and then a free text description of the credential so this is a 20 years further educational face to face so this is quite understandable the subject is management and building industry and this is another type of credential here we see the learning outcome descriptions of the course by the end of the course learner is able to this or that ways to acquire a credential is a validation of a formal learning grading scheme as it is adult education pass or failed on the exam and the threshold of passing is 60% of the old points ok then this is we go more down on the road the models of study online face to face and part time 20 hours the learning in hours this is online assessment with ID verification through model system the cheating prevention is not filled out but there is an automatic grading a quiz testing and again there is an ISO accreditation link here where you can see the registration code and everything because it is the specific course accreditation and you see the homepage of the credential I tried to push in it and they will tell me if it is visible or anybody else no not here sorry yes and this is the credential here you see and then there is an information block just no problem if we still share my screen the last block I would like to show is is the information about the test credential holder and this is my name and many other things and of course there is a link of the open batch that Moodle is giving to the person who was making it there is a small trick because I was not the learner of the course so I was showing a course attendees open batch here for testing purposes but it could be solved if it's a real a learning passport and this is more or less the end of my presentation thank you and go back let's go back to the normal non-shared mode thank you I hope that most of you saw something about the learning passport that's how it works and by the testing we were just telling the authors in who was coordinating this development work that at the part of the accreditation fields there was some not really clean things what to put them and also the student identification was a bit different from the Hungarian requirements so there was a need of adjustment thank you for the your listening and this is the end of the learning passport so the credit supplement presentation thank you it was highly appreciated because it gave some example and the content became more plausible and we would have some hands on experience how it looks like in practice because you do it and also because it just built a bridge between the macro credentials as we use in the macro HE project a digital badges just to have all the metadata plus a digital picture of the credential which is really a good illustration of the points we would like to discuss today one word current that what I didn't say so after this presentation you can see how we moved from the diploma supplement quite rigid and simple structure meaningful informations that I could show you thank you definitely, I think it's the way to go otherwise it couldn't construct the macro credentials in a way that is reliable verifiable retraceable and recognizable at the end so it is a very strong contribution I might have to just add to this presentation that this sort of data is a collection of data that can be translated into machine readable form if you use the same language all together and then it could serve as the metadata for the macro credential when it is all appearing in digital form in the data warehouse like in the credentials.au initiative just suggests so at that point I think we are just keeping our time very, very precisely and then I would like to start the first round of the panel discussion with asking the questions concerning the first part of this expert discussion starting with the briefing paper the learning passport and the results of the blood master class we could go on two different ways one way if we go along the alphabetical order of experts which is also possible or we just could ask you to raise your hands and whoever has got something to say then he or she would like to get the floor to answer what do you recommend could you just put in the presenter's box either way raise your hand raise your hand I think that the raise your hand approach is stronger in the group so I just raise your hands and then I will give the floor to anyone who raise his hands so we are just start Paul has already raised his hands so I think Paul you can start OK, thank you for that generosity it might be helpful for me to start because I suspect I may have been most involved with this project up to now even from the point of view of watching it I did attend the workshop in Dublin and I do quite a lot of work in this area in that sort of typical British way which is possibly somewhat different so some of the questions may help to minimise time later so if I just start with a couple of scoping questions as people like Claudia most of the period when every year we would ask the EU officials the high EU officials off the record about ECVET and they'd all get very embarrassed sometimes they would admit what was happening and I think that gives rise to a big issue because are we talking about higher education qualifications or are we including what are called in the British jargon higher vocational qualifications and before you say they're completely different I'm afraid the market does not judge that as the case and particularly apprenticeships in the UK operate in a hybrid fashion between these so to me that's a very important philosophical question so perhaps I just I'll leave that let me raise the other big philosophical question it's often assumed from agencies like UNESCO and the Commonwealth of Learning from which we get a lot of advice in the Caribbean whether we want it or not if I can put it that way basically a lot of this in their mind goes along with confidence based assessments and I suspect that the feeling here is that that's not mandatory maybe a good idea but it's not mandatory whereas you know there is a strong confidence based movement the Foghorn from southern New Hampshire and the rest but I presume that's optional if at all the big philosophical question I think is about the whole relation with the EC Vet and indeed the national vet systems because leaving them out actually means a lot of trade craft is then not available putting them in probably raises questions of timescale, scope, money and everything else so perhaps I'll just stop at that point these were the questions I asked I think people involving Deborah at an ICD in Dublin a youth meeting on the topic so I'll just leave it there to start with So Deborah Deborah? Sorry just needed to activate my microphone yes Paul I think this question of competence based assessment is a big one looking at how that aligns or not to this focus on ECTS and we've been having this discussion within the ECHO project and we decided to stick to ECTS for pragmatic reasons in that it is the recognized currency but we're also looking to see how much further we can go in the whole competency approach I'd like to provide some feedback on the briefing paper because this was one of the questions that we were asked and I am very external to micro HE I'd just like to make that clear obviously it interlinks with the work that we're doing in ECHO and so it's great to see how far forward things have already come with micro HE the briefing paper is lovely it's actually an enjoyable meaningful read so congratulations on that I'm going to make that recommended reading for all the ECHO partners so that we're not reinventing the wheel in what we're doing there the only other comment I would make coming back to some of the developments that I think Ferenc or Danish mentioned, I think it was Ferenc who did that at the beginning in terms of aligning with Europass and the EDCI model that is something which because ECHO only started in September we are able to fully integrate already into the reflections so everything that's coming out of micro HE and OEPASS are going to be fed in and already being fed into what we're doing in terms of addressing this from a higher education institution, mutual recognition point of view what we're aiming to do at system level and it's already become quite well developed and it will be presented at the Eden annual conference online in a couple of weeks time by Tim Reed is a model credit recognition agreement and this has come out through scoping exercises interviews, examination of recognition processes amongst the partner countries and we've actually made it into an almost final workable wordpress form where bipartite tripartite agreements can be generated from the background database all of which is going to be EDCI compatible so Tim Reed will be presenting that all the work that we did on that and just to encourage people to attend that session if you're going to Eden this paper has also been shortlisted for best paper award at the Eden conference so that's a bit of self promotion for the ECHO project but it's just to show that all this really really valuable work in the previous generation projects is being taken forward and would be happy to continue the conversation as well to keep this area moving and get it aligned and of course the whole take up thing which is addressed in the briefing paper is the main issue thank you who is next I don't see maybe Mark happy to come in just following on from Deborah the briefing paper is very timely for its contribution to helping us understand how messy the micro credentialing landscape is the value of the paper is by looking at different stakeholders perspectives and bringing those together and showing again that there is a challenge here because in searching for a definition I think that process is actually something that needs to be educational there's no point just having a definition and then imposing that and there may be a lesson for us about the time frame that we need to work within but my particular contribution I have just three points I think I want to make the one thing that perhaps I would like to see a little more in the paper and in the discussions that are currently taking place is around the deeper drivers why are we interested in micro credentials what is it that has generated this interest in micro credentials and so by drivers what I'm really getting at and I'm going to share a link to quite a critical paper that's challenging the drive towards micro credentialing that is not expected from a marketization of higher education because many respects we are dancing with the devil if we don't have these conversations almost to the point where this is potentially something that could be taken to the supermarket model of education and very hard to argue against because the learner is at the center of this choosing what it is that they want to study but you know if I extend that metaphor when we go to the supermarket sometimes we choose things on the shelf that are not always good for us and it's not popular sometimes to suggest that the learner doesn't always know what's good for them but that's the truth when it comes to our diet so even we can be educated and we make bad choices so I'll share the link to the paper I've referred to but ultimately the why needs to come before the how and the what I think we would benefit from a lot more figuring out what the why is and actually sort of underlying drivers are not necessarily mutually exclusive but I think that conversation has not taken place in part because we've latched on to kind of a bandwagon if we're not careful I often use this slogan that I repeat with number of things but I'll say it now micro credentials should be in the service of big ideas they are not the big idea itself my second point and I won't take much longer I'm conscious of time here is following what I've just described I also think we need to be very mindful of the language we use and the metaphors we adopt so some people might see me as being overly pedantic here but even the concept of a passport it's borrowed from another from somewhere else so a passport suggests you have to get a stamp well maybe you don't these days in the same way but even in a European context actually the mobility that we have the freedom, the flexibility we don't have to have those passports when we cross borders as we once used to so is the passport the right metaphor equally I've argued in another context because some of you will be aware that the concept of wallets is most often that you have your learner wallet for me that's inherently sexist language it's non-inclusive we would never talk about having a learner purse I don't think and no offence to anyone I hope but in addition to that the idea of a learner wallet implies that somehow knowledges your own commodity and you put it into your wallet it's your personal commodity and that flies against what I understand to be a really common European values about the public nature of education so these are tensions in that why discussion that if we're not careful can be embedded into our discourse so I've been a bit academic last point but then I am an academic just to qualify things so these are conversations that do matter language matters the last point is platforms I'm going to go from a theoretical thing down to some practicalities at the platform level I think Debra made a very important point about the role the Euro pass will play and how alignment needs to take place there but actually there are a number of very mature platforms right now that support microcrit entries at DCU my own university where investing in one of those it's the particular platform that's used by Australian universities all of New Zealand universities a good number of Irish universities UK universities and it's already the system we use to validate the digitally our credentials and at a practical level as an institution we would not want to have to integrate a new system yet another system we would want to build on a system that already talks to our and our other systems these are not inconsequential issues because at the moment our own university is investing in a new student information system and that's about a 20 million euro project when you look at the total cost of implementation so I've probably taken more than enough time Thank you Mark this was a very very valuable contribution to the discussion anyway and I see that that is raising his hand so I give the floor to Claudio Thank you First of all I also have to congratulate for the good work that I could read I apologize I didn't comment by the eighth as it was requested because I needed a little bit more time to get acquainted with the new things that are happening in this domain As Paul marked I have a feeling that micro credentials have a brighter future in higher vocational education than in mainstream higher education that's and we can see the areas where they are developing are the areas of digital competencies are the areas of moving knowledge are the areas of short courses that are by definition the most dynamic part of what we can call higher education and of course in continuing professional development but I would like to follow also what Mark said the why before the how when we started to talk about open education we were talking about a vision of life long learning in terms of freedom of opportunity and now the credentialization element is obliging us to talk about technical standards is about recognition certifications procedures, regulators all sorts of things that are not necessarily 100% coherent with the original ideas of the why of opening up education there is an issue of mindset if not of visions of the world behind this but there is also and I would like while appreciating the document in particular the briefing paper the final part is rightly pointing a few key actors on which the study has been conducted and then there is this table how will a micro credential look like in 2025 that puts some very extreme views on what will happen on page 40 of this document I think this would open in my view that's my advice the opportunity to ask some other more fundamental questions related to the why and to the who who gains and who loses if this is adopted in large scale and in my view it is obvious that the ones who may gain provided the standard can be found and the adoption can be generalized is the credentializing body or bodies those who make a business out of certifying but the other actors that are mentioned in the table I'm not so sure, I mean students in principle may gain but only those students who are entrepreneurial enough to go and choose bits and pieces to add to their curriculum employers may gain in terms of transparency, in fact this is already used in the digital industry but small and medium employers used to check and certify competencies on the basis of putting people at work and observing them so a credential is not a normal currency in a large part of the labour market we must not forget that the regulators I think the regulators will invent each one a different system so okay we can try to align with the strongest of the regulation in our scenario today that may appear to be the European commission but there are other initiatives that are taken by I don't know just mention the initiative for individual learning accounts supported by OECD or the French government I don't remember what's the name of the program I think there is a real problem of finding a single system and finally why should higher education institution gain from this when as it is observed by all commenters that are looking how the present period of covid has in a certain sense destabilized the dogma that higher education should be organized as it is why should they in a sense destabilized their system by introducing an alternative credentializing system by supporting it when when it is already put in discussion I think it's very unlikely that the big core of higher education institution will support this. We have examples of course open universities are to a large extent supporting it and a lot of higher education institution that are providing continued professional development in a large extent are doing this and so this is these are my doubts and my recommendation that there should be an exploration of the why the actors that are met in the study should what should they gain and why should they adhere to this or not thank you for the moment it's all thank you very much Claudio you just says the importance of the question of why that was also raised by Mark and it's a very very timely question because we are already on the train to go somewhere and we should know why we go this direction thank you and then I have seen that Vlad is also raising his hand so I give the floor to Vlad please thank you friends I was not involved actively in this project so for me giving an opinion I think is very objective since I was not influenced by any ideas from during the project I have to say that reading this paper was absolutely wonderful because it summarizes extremely well all the results of this project I love the diagrams which are very clearly written I think even for someone who has no idea about the topic this is a very easy read you manage very well very good balance between an expert language and readability I have only one remark and one suggestion for the future I would refer you to page 23 of the paper where you talk about stackability and the fact that many people don't really know what stackability is maybe it would help if a short definition would be included on that page I also saw very good short definitions for micro credentials and SLPs as a suggestion for the future now that we have this very good document related to a quantitative research I think we need to try to see also a qualitative research I think we need to try and see also a quantitative one and try to have some tens hundreds of people in the various stakeholder groups to try to evaluate this so that we can have confirmation for this very good work in relation to the passport I think that this is also very well balanced the concept of less is more is very well underlined here and I think the information here is enough I would really try to disseminate this into several countries and try to see how this works how this will practically work with the institutions and the students other than that I have to say that reading the expert workshop made me really sad that I was not able to attend it there are some very valuable key points there and I would refer to refer you to the information related to blockchain in education especially since in the project that we wrote a proposal for our friends from Malta our partners so I was aware of some of their work and I think that this is one of the directions for the future of education and potential is the way in which by helping us with blockchain technology we can move all of this to a greater scale this is it thank you thank you very much Vlad I just would like to add that a quantitative discussion of the survey will also appear in the literature we are just planning to put one the university and Tampara is just proposed paper and we joined them so there will be a paper on that more detail than just this briefing paper and we are very happy to hear that you would like to disseminate the results of the project this always will come so just do that and about blockchain is still a debate to use the blockchain for this purpose or not we suggested the blockchain structure but it should be a kind of a European wide accepted concept before we go ahead with it because there are so many different kind of blockchains that we have to agree on what kind of blockchain we use for that who will support the blockchain in that way so it's not that easy to decide that also Lisa is raising her hand so I would like to put the floor to Lisa please Thank you Farron I submitted my feedback already but I wanted to discover highlight some of the feedback that I gave so the other panelists and the participants are aware of what that feedback was I also want to congratulate the team on putting together a really comprehensive report I agree with what Deborah and Claudio and Vlad have said about it being a really easy read and anyone who doesn't have an understanding of micro credentials can get that from the paper and it also provides an excellent overview of the different initiatives that you've undertaken thus far my feedback is really I've got a lot of comments in terms of going to go over all the feedback that I gave in the feedback report I see lots of opportunities for synergies across the stakeholder groups using micro credentials and I think we need to be careful not to focus too much only on higher education but also other areas of education vocational education, continuing professional education this is particularly interesting for us at the Center for Lifelong Learning we've actually had prior learning assessment recognition for the last for over a decade at the university as well as to our continuing education program students don't always take advantage of that within traditional education but they do take advantage through continuing and we've been playing around with experimenting with I guess what you would call micro credentials according to the definition that's been provided in terms of professionalization certificates certificates of advanced studies diplomas of advanced studies which are anywhere between two and thirty credits so I guess you could almost say and then we recognize prior learning and informal learning based on the students experience so we're actually doing that within our university at Oldenburg so I see lots of opportunities for us to create synergies one of the things that I thought was really provocative in the report and intriguing was the statement that future changes will be driven by people and not by universities this is somewhat in disagreement with what Claudia was saying about that higher education won't want to change I actually agree with you, I don't think higher education will want to change I think what we're seeing is a pushback from students, a pushback from industry and from policymakers saying we need to change we have to change in higher education to say give me a reason why do I need to change so I think that will be an activity that the project will also need to undertake in terms of how are they going to address that within higher education institutions within the report itself and the conclusions I'd also make mention of the fact that students are also interested in microcredentials that point was made earlier in the report but was not included in the conclusions because they see that as an opportunity to stack their work I also agree with what Claudia said that not all students are ready to or understand how to take the initiative of stacking their work of creating these diplomas to use microcredentials to create their own diplomas and I think that will be another challenge for the group we face within our at the University of Oldenburg we offer these opportunities for students to be able to create their own programs to be able to stack to do the stacking to recognize prior learning assessment or prior learning but they don't always take advantage of it so my question there is why are they not taking advantage of it if there really is a need why are they not taking advantage of it right now is it because they don't feel it will be recognized by employers or is it because the universities are not as flexible as they should be so I think perhaps case studies of universities that are undertaking this at the moment could be helpful in terms of the learning passport I agree with Deborah what Deborah said about alignment my only feedback regarding workshop is an executive summary would be very helpful there was a lot of really really good information within that document which I thought needed to be summarized with specific themes what's the current situation what are the challenges what are the opportunities I think that would really really communicate the message of that workshop in a much more effective way and I also gave quite a bit of feedback I think that's going to be passed on by parents to the team so that's all I have to say thank you thanks a lot Lisa it's very valuable and I also think that you some of your comments in advance so it's easier to build in the final report and to summarize what the overall opinion was on the documents and I would like to ask Helga to make her comments thank you so I'd like to join my colleagues in saying thank you for this report I mean it's really helpful for someone who has not been involved in doing the research or the investigation eventually or developing the tools so I am in fact your target population in some way or another because I am running a center in a learning in a university that is very much be the research oriented eventually and kind of would like to in a way stick to its autonomy so in fact what I would like to say here is that I particularly like the student perspective and the document because I think that if we pose the question why higher education institutions should eventually taking into consideration micro credentials I think that's because of their students and I think Lisa's point about why don't our students take the opportunity if we provide them the opportunity I think this is a very important question I think and it's about actually the responsibility of the institutions how do we and educators eventually help our students to grow their autonomy in making decisions and eventually how do they use that autonomy to sort of argue for certain solutions which are needed by them rather than the higher education institutions right so of course this is most probably a very complex issue but I think higher education institutions I think there is an interest at least this is how I see it so I'm not so negative about whether they would be willing to change eventually or change certain practices approaches in particular about micro credentials because if you think back on the Mundo's programs like the joint degree programs eventually or joint PhD programs I think it's the institution's decision to join forces eventually and through a complex shared degree program eventually give degrees to students so I think that's already a different approach to acknowledging and showing interest towards how other institutions teach and what do they teach and how could be eventually or how could they eventually recognize the work that is done in other institutions so I think there are already initiatives that should make us feel eventually positive about this but of course as many of you said there has to be some sort of an overarching or institutionalized sort of framework and incentive structure for institutions so that they eventually are willing to maybe give up on some form of their institutional autonomy in that regard and just to give you my my own sort of experience I run a program for an obvious higher education teachers these are called the excellence in teaching programs and I very often get emails from other institutions in Europe primarily who ask about what types of courses our graduates, PhDs take with us because then they actually acknowledge those so I see this as of course observational evidence not so much evidence per se but there is already thinking going on or sharing practices or sharing resources or documents for example among centers of teaching and learning in Europe who actually trained the next generation of university teachers so for example my how I see this is that if there is there are certain areas and foci or particular trainings if you will provided by many many universities in the same area that eventually through university networks locate and identify those and maybe start working on sharing these sort of credentials eventually or trying to work for sharing these practices eventually I think that's yeah I would have a couple of questions about from the institution's perspective how one could use the online platform but I'll just hold that back and eventually send those comments and questions and writing to you so thank you you touched a very important issue at the very end of your note but it really needs a much much wider discussion than that I think it's a problematic thing and no I think I would like to ask George to make his comments and us his comments in writing also but since his I think about the last to comment here in the living talk it is very very valuable to give the floor to George so George please yeah just a brief comment I just want to indicate that I like the paper very much a few points of the stakeholders and giving also a good idea about the complexity of it all it is very relevant for example in the Netherlands now we have launched a new law on not having a yearly fee for the university but having a fee for a module so it is very important that we get good transparency and trust in the system and also work towards more standardization and therefore the stakeholders are very important to get their views and bring them together we also do that within our YouTube project on the European Mucon Software for the Label Market where we have a yearly PRM activity with the stakeholders to also reflect on the role of market potentials and the dialogue of having the best system for that and I just want to indicate that at this briefing paper I'm missing the bigger role of employment agencies as we have employment agencies as one of the bigger players in this as they are the interlocutor between the companies and the educational institutions we should have also a very prominent role in this dialogue and further I just want to indicate that I'm working with the micro potentials and the definitions I think what is confusing now is that there are actually two major definitions one is the broader definition which clearly indicates inclusion of certificates and badges as there is also another definition of micro potentials like also in the Dutch acceleration agenda for innovating education which explicitly said micro credentials and badges and certificates so despite contradictory but they are focusing on formal education there so these two definitions and I hope in these dialogues where the stakeholders to get a more clear view when we are talking about micro potentials we are actually meaning of this formal education and therefore we have to give that qualification a name a dedicated name a name that reflects the value of this micro potential in formal education Thank you George this issue of the relation between badges and micro credentials is very important and it is not new in the literature you might have read already that in more than 10 years ago it was also already raised once that these are overlapping or the same or just there is a small area that overlaps between the two and for instance as I mentioned Mark mentioned that they use micro credentials and they also use a picture a badge attached to the micro credentials so to my understanding there is some overlap between the two and if the digital badge is constructed in a way that it has it have the same metadata as required for the formal micro credentials then it is a badge and the micro credential in one so definitely there is some overlap between the two definitions as far as I just studied the literature you might have different opinion it depends on the application I think so then I would like to ask whether anyone would like to respond to comments of others because there will be some slight contradicting ideas for instance about the relation of digital badges and micro credentials or whether this is the primary importance of higher education the importance mostly concerns the learners themselves and the like and the issue of whether it is just for higher education or for life learning or country learning I don't want to open the discussion because this project was aimed at higher education application of micro credentials and we know that the scope is much higher much wider than that and this micro credentials is and are being used in just acknowledging prior learning acknowledging acquired skills and competencies in open learning or non-formal learning or even informal learning so this is an other direction I know I do not exclude that it could reach to that point but no we are just dealing the application of micro credentials in higher education context so anyone would like to comment the first round if not then I would like to initiate the second round which is about the experience of your institution using micro credentials or the validation micro credentials and in general the future of this initiative in your institutions so please raise your hands for starting the discussion I ask Paul to start with Thank you Florence this question could really fit into either it's one of these liminal questions that fits into either slot I think it may be from what Florence was saying maybe a future project or the next project but certainly as somebody who is the kind of person who needs to be convinced would like at some stage to follow this excellent report with a greater degree of granularity and I'm very much minded by a wonderful paper that's just come out which I've only just quickly read which describes a COVID situation in about 40 countries around the world which is absolutely wonderful but why is it wonderful well first of all it's topical but secondly you get down to some really gutsy gritty details about how we all went horribly wrong in some countries in education as well as in other ways and very much fresh from the fight I'm also reminded and promoting one of our own papers with the JRC the policy, some of you will remember this some of you will probably interview 2017 where we had ministers trying to hide in some cases rather than we put on the spot and some very edited interviews came out but I think he just gave you a very good feel for some of the decision making in countries about how they go including countries where you thought they'd be doing much more I won't name any countries, you can read the report and that I think would be very useful the last point is to get some historical perspective including within institutions I'm reminded while I think of it that those who think that individual learning currents are a good idea might want to consult some old people who remember how many millions of viewers were lost the last time England tried this but only a few of us are old I live in a city which invented it only a few of us remember how badly wrong it went and how much the level of fraud was which doesn't mean he can't be done correctly all I'm saying is it wasn't done well before so I think from the institutional point of view there are a number of things which I'll talk a little bit about the Open University and that it would apply to other distance teaching institutions and Darby as well I think somebody already hinted about the regulatory problems one of the bizarre reasons why a lot of investment money to be blunt is going into international online learning in the UK is because the regulatory climate is more conducive it's true in England and I believe in the Netherlands if one reflects on the history that I'll show you that just when you want to be modular the government comes along and says no you can't be, we're worried about completion we want to get outcomes we're only prepared to fund degree programs and this certainly I know caused a lot of issues at Open University I've heard it caused issues within Open University in the Netherlands because they had to basically take a wonderful modular system and kind of put it back into degree programs which the government wanted but maybe the university didn't want so even when you try and be modular you're rather vulnerable so a government coming along with a new vision and that's the problem with new government's new visions and stopping you and to say in vocational education that you're at a pre-credential level in England not at the degree program level and so some people basically say well I think I'll call that vocational because it's easier the syllabus, the assessment might be almost the same this is the beauty of the higher vocational trick a trick some of us learn from MOOCs actually don't ever say if it saves you or not because you get bogged down and I'm very conscious that these are here the US institutions are quite careful about that their CPD is higher education in any sense which might generate higher level scrutiny MOOCs suppliers are quite careful at saying someone may wish to give this a credit value we couldn't possibly comment that's for other people phrased in the kind of Plarr, APO universe so I think this is where you need some of the devils in the detail because of course if some big countries say well that's great we went to the UNESCO meeting yes, but meanwhile our regulators are saying not a chance one has to kind of begin to to get that out of the open and I think there are some issues with two issues I'll flag from a provider and I'll just let a two year micro credential in teacher training for teaching online and the modularization as I remember from my earlier opening of essays the modularization is the difficult part how do you generate these free standing models which can be consumed in any sequence a colleague of mine in the institution I mentor is just finishing an entrepreneurship modular program you can take it in any order that's tough when you're the tutor for that as well as being a student so of course you may compromise and it can be done but it's tougher than you think especially when you do it at scale as some of the big open universities do and as I say you then can get into the kind of government pressure and I think there are some student issues too when I first joined Sheffield Hallam I'm sorry to be boring and old in 1996 I was told there was a really great idea just come out from the government science council called modular masters so off we went did a modular masters distance education never really worked people said look I want the masters what's this modular stuff tick tock through the models in sequence we never really had any demands ok you would say it's a long time ago but it isn't really in educational terms so I question whether the student demand is really there without seeing evidence in other words if people put it on will it be taken up and ok maybe different in the US and there are reasons why it is different there but I think to some extent you're rather careful because some of them like us have been there before so I would counsel caution another big thing I feel as important is the marketing people have mentioned marketing education is not as free as it used to be and it's not just weird countries like England that make it expensive especially for international students education may well be a lot less free after the current situation so marketing is important and if you are trying to market your Indiana University 135 online masters even though the president of the institution doesn't seem to know about them as he made a press conference the other day when you try and change 135 online masters to 1350 online masters modules you can get this kind of chaff effect you are trying to reel through and suddenly the sky is full of chaff people still want the big institutions the elite institutions still want to get these big ticket masters programs through I'm taking masters because that's actually more amenable has been more amenable to modernization for a long time for a start there's a three part structure to it anyway certificate diploma and dissertation in many countries across the world so it's kind of partly modernized anyway but even so I think institutions and students are cautious even though I see no problem in the ECTS scheme I never did, we never do to permit modular masters and indeed scaffolded undergraduate programs with our foundation degrees and certificates and diplomas we have at undergraduate they're not widely used which I think is partly due to student demand but so I think it's a kind of dialogue we need and we want the right structure and I would also wonder whether it should be ranked most institutions have been seen as transgressive and disruptive and you know Christiansen Institute kind of thing because we know that these regulators really nervous everyone tries to keep the national students early online the quality assurance agency in your country online they tend to like continuity George will remember our discussions with Enqua in the previous project changing a few sentences can be quite hard work so it may be helpful to promote this in two ways one is disruptive in the long term but there are conservative incremental ways of taking the first few steps in the short term because without the first step the journey doesn't start sorry that was more philosophical than I meant to but that's how it's come out but I think I'm trying to 3 or 4 different institutional dilemmas into my point of view at the moment plus a lot of other work that we've done of course thank you very much Paul about sharing your ideas about the dilemmas of the different institute so I would like to ask the other participants to try to give answers to the questions of part 2 of the discussion what did your institution concrete plans to offer micro cadences and what are your plans to recognize micro cadences a new institution in which way and in which subjects and also what do you expect from a user's guide on micro cadences in higher education so I think Lisa is raising her hand I leave the floor to Lisa thank you Ference I already mentioned some of those things that we're doing at the University of Oldenburg and I think I will need to make a distinction here between what's being done within the traditional higher education environment of the university and in our continuing professional education environment because within the Center for Life on Learning the courses that we're doing where we're doing stacking what could be defined as micro learning the students have to pay for those courses whereas within the traditional university environment they do not so that could be a real key distinction there in terms of whether or not you would want to consider the Center for Life on Learning as being an option to use as a case study and as I mentioned we do modularize our programs we offer professional certification modules of two ECTS we've got advanced case studies which are anywhere between 5-12 CTS and then diplomas of advanced studies which are up to 30 ECTS and as I mentioned we are using prior learning assessment so when students come in and say I've taken this course within another program or I have this work experience we'll take that into consideration and give the student credit for that experience and I think that the university has actually been a trailblazer as this is something that came up with about a decade ago in terms of where we're going with it right now we're doing further micro credentials looking at how we can for example use some of the give student certification for courses that they've already taken for example through a MOOC Open Educational Resource Here I'm thinking about the OLN to a one-course set that's being offered in Sweden many of our many of our students are taking that that course at the moment and so we're looking at how can we integrate that Open Educational Resource or that open learning experience into our into our programs and offer them certification for that so that could also be considered a form of micro-credential so yeah that's pretty much what we're doing in terms of micro-credentials and in terms of the feedback on the user's guide I think I misunderstood what was meant by the user's guide when we received the form to fill out because I thought you were referring to a user's guide for the software tool so I'll need to think a little bit more about what exactly we would need in terms of a user's guide most reactions would be we need to know what's happening in the background we need to know what the decision making matrix is we need to know about the processes and it needs to be easy to read and easy to use that's just my basic feedback thank you Riza I just would like to ask one more question from you do you recognize micro-credentials coming from different other institutions not given by your institution so I mean and this is based on an agreement between the universities or it is based on standards it's based on standards it's assessed by the there's a group within the university the prior learning of course it's a german name but they do prior learning assessment and recognition within that group for students at the university however not a lot of students take advantage of that opportunity what they I don't know if it's a marketing issue or if it's because they don't see a need to do that within the Center for Lifelong Learning where we offer continuing professional education which is more for the working adult where they actually pay for the courses we see a lot of students coming in and saying okay I want I've got this work experience and I have this certification I've attended this workshop and then we'll put together a package for them in terms of what courses they could opt out of and receive credit for so that's how we do that so that means that it's a third party independent of your university assessing different no it's the university itself the one is for the traditional university side and it's within the university and then there is the Center for Lifelong Learning and that's also a branch of the university but it's more for professional students who are coming in as adults for education and that's also done within the center by the program directors and by a committee of people from the Center for Lifelong Learning I see it, so it's a kind of an investigating the credential with more scrutiny I see it, thank you I don't think anyone raising keys on her hand but I am really curious about your practice and expectations about the application of micro credentials in your university so who is next Vlad, it's your turn Yes, thank you for me it will be quite short since our situation is a little bit complicated in my country there is a regulatory body part of the education ministry which allows accreditation for every program and also for every type of credentialing this body is very bureaucratic and they are very reluctant to change I am sure that this sounds familiar for some of you maybe not now but I'm sure in the past in your countries this was the same therefore we don't have any official plans for micro credentials in our university we try to promote this in three aspects first we are the European projects in which we are involved in and in which for the last projects all of them had micro credentials component and we are seeing every time how we can include and integrate those micro credentials into the European passport and all other European recognized bodies the second aspect is related to some courses that we are trying to get recognized by our university some postgraduate programs and we have at the moment managed to get the recognition or a diploma for a very short program but that diploma is recognized only by our university and the ministry does not allow us to transfer that so that if someone wants to transfer the abilities gained in that diploma wants to get recognized in other parts and the third aspect is related to the pedagogy that we are doing some of the teachers in my team we are giving the students the possibility of following other courses such as MOOCs of course and if they can prove to us that they received a digital badge then with an examination presentation that they do we give them a grade for their exam but this is a practice that we are using because we can decide in which way we are going to do the examination but this is not a common practice in our company so at the moment until the micro credentials will be more promoted and until the European Union will come with stronger recommendations for acceptance of more flexibility for the higher education in all countries I don't see how we can fight with the regulatory body from the ministry related to the user guide I think that clear instructions and explanations will be in order of course I'm expecting it will be like this I would like to see why I need to use micro credentials where I can use them if I can integrate them in other parts how this will help me in my career and also I would love to see a Q&A section most common questions related to the topics so that I can easily find the answers I might be looking for I think these are my answers until now Thank you, Bud it's very interesting how you proceed with application of micro credentials and that you have to fight with regulatory bodies but I think it is the case in all over Europe that regulatory bodies are strong most focussed on the traditional high vocation scene and not anywhere else then I would like to ask Claudia Dondí to continue Thank you My institutional belonging is questionable to a certain extent but I will refer here as part of Uni More University of Modena and Reggio Emilia in Italy first of all three points one is that micro credentials in higher education are a questionable element as I said before of opening up higher education and they are not totally coherent with the first because of course credentializing is an important part of the higher education business but opening and credentializing are not 100% working together Having said this we experienced all in these last months an increase of access to open education and books in particular and an increase in the spontaneous initiative or not even spontaneous apparently in China it was pushed initiative of the students to use open education worldwide this may have changed in principle for sure the awareness and potentially also the level of initiative in students the level of agency in shaping their own individual learning path that must not be underestimated but from an institutional perspective where I see the potential of course we have talked about continuing professional development as a non mainstream activity for most higher education institution in some it's different the international component a broad the physical and the virtual mobility elements where micro credential can be accepted and relatively easily integrated but they would like to point at an area that was mentioned by Helge before and it's the area of teachers education that's the area in which our university is actually after a european project that is going to finish soon has developed so my hypothesis of micro credentials for for school teachers covering areas related to lifelong learning key competencies but the idea of also experimenting the practice of micro credentials for higher education lecturer is also quite an interesting one and I would like to know more from Helge what they are doing because as you may know on the 26th of May also the commission has produced conclusions on teachers of the future teachers and trainers of the future and in one point in one of the final points of these conclusions they mentioned, they encouraged the use of micro credentials for teachers education and continuing professional development and they suggest the creation academy for teachers so there is an area there that is not only politically opportun because opportunistic let's say because the commission is pointing to that but is also I think since big innovation cannot be imposed but must be adopted and the big part of academic body is made of teachers if teachers don't experience on themselves the system they will be not so oriented to make the big steps in changing their model of delivery and certification so I think the area of teachers training I would recommend to all of those interested as an area where probably something interesting can be done in the starting from this year and taking the wave of the fact that teachers have become aware in school and in higher education or some limits in their capacity to use technology to support teachers to reach the less favored students group all of these things require working on the learning and support process much more than normal from secondary education on teacher has been trained to being focused on a discipline on a certain content rather than on the process so I think there is there a big challenge to be solved most important element de de de de de de de de de de de de hogy a digitálisárságban a félhagyára készített. És a digitálisárságban a félhagyára is számított. Így szeretem, hogy hagyd a félhagyára. Oké, tudom a félhagyára jön, mert én miatt megválom, de úgy hát, hogy a félhagyára jön. Mark, hogyha jön, hogy a félhagyára jön? Yes, cool, thank you. Ok, so... Yeah, so... Just to... Just to reflect... on my institution, eventually because that had been the original sort of question. But not much is happening, I have to say. And I saw Arenas questioner points about the digital infrastructure eventually Hogyha érdemelőséget is aflodunk, hogy a különségeti helyzeteket is személyen, hogy a különségeti helyzeteket is Sergeant-t is más érdemelőve a különségeti helyzeteket is. És azzal, hogy az esélyek, hogy kérem, hogy a különséges múlvának, azok, hogy hogy a különséges múlvának is lesz a különséges, hogy a különséges második az elsősége. Ez egy olyan érdező, ami most szólgálni, hogy... A családokban az egyébként nem olyan, hogy szeretnél ezt az egész, de amikor azt mondta a gondolató állításokat, amelyiket az embereket láttak a gondolató és az egyébként és az egyébként. Mindenként ez egyébként a gondolató a kezével. A másik egyébként az egyébként. Én értem, de a helyt, amit ilyen kérdési állítások színt, de szeretném, hogy egyébként születi születet, Még a kiegéreül. A k offline szegéletek a végrebelül a pár főnél kérdevel kérdeztünk ugye. Kérdeztem, hogy összeleg kérdeztünk ezzel, hogy szembelül ezzel szemmelnak főször nem összeleg. A finomunkat kérdeztek, de de nem mindig, hogy a főnél a szélyből előrött, kérdeztem, hogy egy támogatászok, amikor a csalisáját kérdeztek, A lehetőségénybeim, hogy az az egyik összertedése, és egy helyen hagymásra, de diagnézettnek a srácal, hát hagymásra megálltottak a..'s kérem.. Ha egy nevek, vagy ha egy kajálasztás jelentése, amikor kertek önlinget Barry és káváltak, hogy a gyerekek el kell vele k vendéchetni, és az első csaliskapára megállalhatunk. Aztán az élete a kéremnek mindig megyek a hely, Van már egy minerutáj vinylszab amid eljövő étel most a korszát, amiket nagyon jelentett én, de szápa довольно magasikra innen a jegyrelkőségeket és teljesen egy később tült, olyan kicsit annak, hogy tovább ebben szépeneket отire. A szélre fejresetet majd találhatjuk egy kicsit. Egy kétmelyik szélre félben és ebben a szélre. Mythen mindig érdező fejresetet, amit ilyen szélre fejresetet megláltad. Azt hát, hogy nekem a gaz enfimzókat voltam, hogy felhiszük egy pár velet, a hány készen az utolsó vállalokat embernek, és azoknál, hogy vigyázzuk, erő személyzetem flowing pezni, melyik s obstacles szépen, hogy őra akarsz, hogy a témetekkel, jelentnek-e a helyzetetként, ké dividedként vagyunk. A témetekkel az üldbsége, a kéredetekkel a entrelétekül van, amikor a kétetekkel az állott, A képe voltam, hogy a képe állal az országa képességeztetősége, és azok, amikor nekem a képe érdező, és azok, és a képe érdező és a képe érdező, ezek egy képe van az erősége, hogy érdező, hogy érdező, és ez az előtt az erősége. A képe is most, hogy a képe érdező, az erősége és a képe érdező, és a képe érdező, ilyen sitek is a maradba a fokhagymát, hogy az óta lesz az utolásra, hogy kaptam ezek a családra, a különböző életre. A meg endogázzá a törőkező jelentőre. A fokhagymát, hogy a Fél-Fél-Fél-Fél-Fél-Egyi szintén találhat a legyen, az úgyok,ี่ a különbözői csapáról, The Teaching Excellence Framework, right? And they do to-year courses, a program basically for university teacher development. They get back to us and say, OK, what does your program have that we can eventually acknowledge and recognize so that our people, or your new hire, does not have to go through the training, if you will. But a long way ahead. Tehát nagyon szerinted, a kapcsolatban, mire emlékezen érkezés lesz, hogy egy kívülő egy agriment, mi tudták, hogy és amikor korábban mondani, de lesz, de most az ő az őzés és ekreditónában aval vagyunk. Én igazán, mert nem emberekenésebb és észikointságban huzom, az érzéseből játszódnak is. Felszí~], aki minden csomóabb az őket, az önadásokkal, ez egy kis kis mutatások lehetelni. Hogy ha 이런 kis csomóbb alatt nevet is valamit volt, a másik személyhoz említettem, ha egy épp nem óvásóbb levesztett, amíg azokkal jövénki a tökényel. A dessus-tőle állítóként, lennél, hogy a zeneit az emberek haláltunk. A másik személyhagére, hogyek ők is nagyon személyhagére, amikor egy ugyan那alma kettél a trológiai forgáltal, óvállabb az éven erősége, Spectaciously define micro-credentials. Coz that´s what you have to do at an institutional level. If you´re going to call it a credential, that´s not a straightforward process. It´s involves a lot of discussion with the academy, with your colleagues to help them understand what it might be. A lot of debate, robust debate. I have to give credit to just over a year ago the role that the common micro-credential a szerepőknek a másik képződésbe. Azzal a szerepőknek a szerepőknek a másik képződésbe. És azért, hogy egy szerepőképp azok, azért egy képe szerepőképp azok, is a szerepőképp szerepőképp. Aztán a félikányúját és a szerepőképp, hogy a szerepőképp a szerepőképp, a szerepőképp a szerepőképp érkezni. Amikor a másik, akkor mindenki a két különsők azok, azok a különsők is játszolják. És ha azt gondolsz, hogy a különsők és különsők a különsők és különsők és különsők azok, akkor a különsők és különsők és különsők és különsők és különsők és különsők a különsők, a különsők és a különsők azok a különsők és a különsők azok a különsők és a különsők azok a különsők és a különsők azok a különsők és a különsők azok a különsők és a különsők azok a különsők és a különsők azok a különsők és a különsők azok a különsők és a különsők A kiválni is nem érdemel nadiezés. Egy újabbak más. Tudod az előtt, hogy a mindig az előtt a kibá cortokot is majd kaptam. És akarom a kiválni, amikor kb. is kapcájtunk, hogy a különségemi téged, ez a szakúig, aki holás idők nem sikertett ezt a különségeket. A akarszázzal ezt a initiation az előtt a különségeket, hogy a számozik a különségekre. A különségeket, hogy a különségeket de ez a helyzetet fölésre volt, amit a Csíron kéneztetőségre is gondolod a Eurókában. Tudod? Megszerzettek, Márk. Nagyon szeretem, hogy a legjobb helyzetetőség nem érdeztem. A legjobb helyzetetőség nem érdeztem. biggest mechanisms that we are living that is questionable, it is self evident. I think that if there are the same metadata and the same credibility behind a digital batch it might be, digital micro credentials as well at the same time. a fúljúvárlapink, de nem a fúljúvárlapink. A fúljúvárlapink az egy-két is. Szerintem szeretnék a másik fúljúvárlapink, hogy a másik fúljúvárlapink, vagy a másik fúljúvárlapink. Aztán nem történtek az utána, aki fúljúvárlapink a fúljúvárlapink, a kérdésben. és mondjuk, hogy a félre felkockázzuk a kéremlésére, és a félre, a kéremlésére, és a félre félre. A kéremlésére is mondjuk, hogy azt mondjuk. Nézzük a kéremlésére. Oké, tudom tűnni. Azt hiszem, hogy a kéremlésére is nagyon való, amikor a hagymára, amikor a kéremlésére is mondjuk, azért kellettem, hogy megvártunk a különbözőségéseket a különbözőségéseket. És azért kellettem értelelni, hogy a különbözőségeket, azért tudják értelelni a személyeket, a különbözőségeket értelelni. És személyeket kellettem, hogy ezek egy különbözőségeket hogy ezene a helyre, és a változásra, vagy a helyszív az idődés, vagy a helyszív subjálatokat, emlékeződési újra. De tervezkeztettem, hogy ezen a sea-vigyosállókat is, előtt a bikusnak előbb. Ez is egy olyan szil Serveis történekre, hogy két és másik egyetlen helyeket, hogy egyetlen jégségeztek a k añoskiak, és ahogy egyetlen ezek a fél szilverre, és ezek a két és másik akarjok, hogy egyetlen-leg lesz az alatt alapjánok fél szilverre, ilyen, mert a FHG-program személyét is tudom, hogy édeséges, és az úgyhogy mi a fél látása, ezzel a fél látása, késővel a válaszása, két édeséges, akik egy ismi leszműged, minden jelen minden deotása, egy édeséges, és minden deotása, két édeséges, egy édeséges, két édeséges, csak minden a válaszása, két édeséges, ebből ne két édeséges, de ma tudom, a mutatása, hogy eszlátországot gondolhatunk a szélőségek, nagyon szélőségek, akik egyébként szélőségek, hogy ha egyébként az egész, hogyha egyébként az egész, az ismered, hogy a szélőségek, az ismered, hogy a szélőségek, akik egyébként szélőségek, hogyha egyébként szélőségek, és miért ennyire sütésben vagyok emlutóok azzal. Aztán kérdem az esetek, aki kérdésbe. Mégtosan a szemre egy épp, egy kredensató lemek. Mégmert slackokom az adott, aki mégis a szemre, aki játszott lelébe, és aki a személyen samondval, hogy olyan tanup elétlátok a tetszik عندeg. és a kéremúdiások, amit ezt a végén is kérdettek, ahogy én tudom, hogy itt mai a kémára, és én az a fél adatot érdekléje is beválltok. És én vissza a helyen a két évtékével, a két évtékével, a két évtékével, a Fél évtékével 2020-t, amit a világban hítszik, Fogadásokat érkezik a fokhagymát, és egy később fokhagymát, hogy a fokhagymát is szólják. Úgy kérdett, hogy a fokhagymát is szólják. A fokhagymát is szólják, hogy a fokhagymát is szólják, hogy a fokhagymát is szólják. mikrokadációt. A konferenségek, a Full Day program-t, Antoni Camillari-t, a kénot-t, és a 3 szépen-t, a kénot-t, a kénot-t, a kénot-t, a kénot-t, a kénot-t, a kénot-t, a kénot-t, a kénot-t, a kénot-t,