 in the macro-political situation. But for me, it's as the fact, you know? It's like when you put it the micro-political in the philosophy of the universal in of itself, you can see you in the other, you know? So that's why we call micro-political and yes, that's where it comes from. Thank you. And you do mention in the actual show, you do mention other events unfolding in Mexico, just like Juan Carlos said about the different murders, like children murdering each other. And I wanted to ask you, how would you see the relationship between the violences that you portray, for example, or talk about in the play and the systemic or institutional violence in Mexico? Does violence start from the bottom up or does it trickle down in your view? It's, for me, it's really complex because I think in Mexico, we, as I wrote for, as I wrote a few time ago, we live in a constant risk, you know? We live in a context of risk and the risk of being disappeared, the risk of being part of countless number of feminisms, you know, the rise day by day and in parallel to the large artistic work we can see and we can develop the murders and disappear, multiply, you know? So it's really complex to understand how. As Luz Amelia also says, we live in a very difficult situation because we live in a narco-political situation, you know? Where the government, it's a representation. Government represents that it's the government but actually the government, it's not a really right state, you know, where you can trust or something else and I think this narco-political situation is really connected to neoliberalism, you know? As a way of culture where values are really means, you know? The values of subjetty, the values of love, the values of compassive, they are back and they are supplied by the money, you know? So they are supplied by the money and from the culture of representation too because we are very worried about Netflix or I don't know, but I'm really worried about what Netflix and movies and everything also represents, you know? It's like, it's an open window where maybe child's called, you know, watch what this culture is and I don't know, it's really complex. I guess it starts from the families because, you know, we have a lot of poor and misery. So starting from this point, you know, the money takes a lot of revenge. So I can't say this. I don't know. Thank you. Welcome back to the media. We were just talking about the relationship between micro-violence and macro-violence and whether what's going on with the Mexican government or even international politics affects violence in small units like families and I wondered whether you have a take on that as well. Well, yes, I think it is very, very connected and what we are watching now is that one of the most influential countries in the world is encouraging all kinds of discrimination, the cult for money as Lauda was saying and also all this cult for violence and the guns and all this. And they are giving all this influence through Netflix and all these representational different platforms. And I don't see we are getting some counterpart in anything. Also, the life is becoming much more uncertain. Even the situation, when I was, you know, you read the place of 19th century like Boisek or the Weavers or even you go back. Life has been very violent for humanity. Humanity is violent by itself but now it's becoming kind of legalized after a time in which in the speech and reflections in education there was a try to stop it, to have a question on this. And I think we are in a very dangerous moment in the world and in Mexico and other countries because of these violence support that you are. And also all these movies, the main thing you can find in any of these platforms like Prime Video or whatever, is always like the serial killers. There is like an exaltation of violence and not enough reflection on solidarity. So activities like this, like theater which is the presence that we cannot have it right now in all the places, but it's a place to have a reflection, to give questions, to think about it and not only to consume it. And I think it's important that we support and we encourage and we go to these alternatives. Thank you. Juan Carlos, do you want to add anything to that? Yeah, maybe I think remain just a small symptom of what is happening in our country. Forced disappearances, feminicides, political corruption, trafficking in women, violence against children. And of course there's a connection with wider events, not only in Mexico, but around the world. And I think that is geopolitics, a symptom network of violent events in the term of humanity, in search of power of queer territories. And it's about money, of course, and have the power. And as I said, I think it's a symptomatic, it's like a snowball. And it becomes a symptomatic to remain silent not to raise your hand and not to exercise our rights, to be indifferent to the other and to the social and political situation of our countries, in our countries, in our work areas and even from our homes. And I think it starts as a question from ground up and also it trickles down when we have to do is not, what we have to do is not to allow violence to rise up. Thank you. And what challenges do you find, both of you, in fact, all three of you as artists and theater critics, journalists working in independent theater, exposing these violences and trying to investigate them and show people the consequences? Well, for me, the first challenge is to keep alive because as a woman and as a creator, as I told, the constant risk to stop living, it's still all the time. So for me, in this way, after we pass the way to be alive, it's like the challenge, it's really huge now, because after pandemic situation too, it's like how if now, at the same time, I just will go a little back what Lusamina was speech telling, it's like, yeah, at the same time, we have all this horrible frame. It's really happening, a really strong, powerful of women's together. It's like really huge power in and last week, collective of feminist women's took the National Commission of Human Rights. So they took it and they won't leave it. It's an occupation, under occupation, because they are making their voice, their voice allowed and shouting. And that's for me, really gives me back the wondering that something will come back well after the pandemic situation, because I was really afraid, you know? The pandemic situation is like, they took away the public space as communities. And now we are going to, we are returning to take the public space. And also, I think the theater will take more powerful. I wish, you know, and I hope in a way to think, really think about what it's need to think about. I guess everything it's need to think about in any point of view. It's not something only, but I think like, yes, we have valorized life. We valorize the time. So maybe the challenge will be which topics are we going to talk about now and how we will talk about it. You know, how? So to reflect a lot, I think the challenge to reflect and act with this consequence, I think. I don't know. If anyone wants to add anything, please feel free to step in. If not. Well, I think the challenge is that we don't know when we are really going to be able to be in the streets and in the public space because even the government says that the situation of the pandemic in Mexico is better even in the world. We are watching the racing again of this sickness, this pandemic. And we don't know when we are going to have the vaccine. So it's difficult to know what is going and when it's going to happen. I think the challenge is also to be able to touch the spectators and to convince the society that what the artists do and that theater is important and not being concessive, not by entertaining or doing things that will not bother the spectator with questions or whatever. I think everybody's looking to or many people is trying to find answers or to have the right questions. And the challenge is how to connect in societies in which might be not like a tradition very well established. For example, in Argentina, you have a wide support of spectators to what is happening in theater. But in Mexico, it has to be created. Much more than in Argentina. So one of the challenges is this and also to always have a better quality of thought because it's a very fine intellectual activity. Theater can be very, very subtle and go to the very central questions. But we all have to do an effort of thinking and being lucid and having an interesting and wide and strong views of the reality that is around us. Thank you. Do you feel that in Mexico, there is a movement of political or social theater? Do you as artists feel part of a movement or do you see one shaping up anytime in the future? Well, I see that we have a very wide theater possibilities and one very strong and everyday stronger is the political theater because even the community was not organized really. And after all this that I described after the violence, you know, arose with Calderon and now what is happening with all these supports and possibilities that you had from the States in a way that somehow there was a free of speech because there were not real controls, direct controls that they were going to give you a scholarship and then there was a censorship directly. Somehow there was some freedom. We don't know because things are changing and it doesn't seem to be the scenery in front. I think this now, because I am in many different chats, I see people getting organized. I'm taking seriously that the situation is not easy and that we have to help each other. So I can see that it's getting stronger and stronger for the women, for the disappear. Somehow we are learning to organize. So that's hopeful. I mean, it arises certain hope that things might be, you know, we can have bad governments, but we should become a better society. Yes, and I just want to add in the same way, it's like as we have this really in front, you know, it's like really in front and really clear. I think the movement, if I can say it's a movement, I don't know if it's a movement, but maybe what I can see from myself, it's like we are the art, it's really one to be connect with the society, you know? And in this way, the art and activism, for example, are working together. And in this way, it's really interesting because it's not that art will be now the activism, it's not supplying, it's like working together. Each one, what they know how to do, and but together, you know? Actually, before talking with you, I was talking with Mario Vergara, he is an activism, he is searching from his brother, and I was telling, hey Mario, I can talk to him, I can say I share you these, I do these, I do theater and you do activism, you know? And in the same way, we are walking together and walking together to try to explain this horror, you know? And not just maybe in the art more to explain, to reflect in the activism, to have the answers and to have the facts, you know? So for me, this is the movement, I can say it's a transdisciplinary scene, you know? Because the theater, yeah, we have a lot of theaters, but the theaters in the way I'm connect is the theater that it's not only built with theater. It's a theater that can connect with science, that can connect with activism, with can connect with history, with critical, with experts, with families, with society. And in this way, the art for me is that it's like a hacker, a hacker to, to, to, can put together different persons in the same stage, you know? For me, that's the important, it's to put together different persons who comes from different frames and different parts and talk together what this is about. Yes. Absolutely, yeah. We at Besmefield exactly the same way. And we try to use theater as a way of bringing into wider society certain ideas that people are fighting for. You know, make them more accessible, more mainstream and more challenging. And also to show that, like Lucemita was saying earlier, you know, violence has consequences. Because if I'm correct, Lucemita, you weren't criticizing the idea of showing violence, but showing violence without consequences, violence as a product, violence as fun. Yeah, violence as fun as the only way that you can be entertained. And with no possibility to have a counter part of having a second thought or a certain reflection. There was a very, very big discussion around cinema, for example, in which some people were saying that Quentin Tarantino was the producer of violence, which is very innocent because it's not that way. It's just a society that worships money, violence, humiliation, somehow in different ways, some of them like cinema and certain theater, is just like the praising of it. For example, with the narcos. And I'm not talking about giving any censorship, not at all, but different instances of reflecting, of problematizing the situation. Not normalizing and idealizing those who commit all these violent situations. And also very worrying is these societies like American society, Brazilian society, Mexican society, which are more or less the same that are dividing. And they fuel their power by excitating the hate, the hate for the other. And all these feelings I think is very dangerous. So theater as a place where you can reflect on values on the human conditions, a very flexible place of meeting where you can be with the other and you can have many, many possibilities of creating structures and you can heal the people. For example, in Mexico, theater is also a healing instance or in Latin America, like accompanying the people that is suffering by somehow showing society that it is happening, visualizing and yet healing and accompanying the situation. And that's what I think that it's not a fact of censorship. It is the fact of creating thought, critical thought and questions and inviting society to become responsible, core responsible to what is happening. Thank you, Lisa Niga. Juan Carlos, apart from being a creator and sometimes performer, you're also a producer. And I was wondering if you could tell us about how funding works in Mexico and what your experiences has been trying to fund political work and more radical work? Well, I think it's important, Laura say and Luz Emilia about independent companies, independent artists. Of course, there is a fellowships here in Mexico. We already applied to them but of course it's not enough and we have to create some new strategics and I think it has to be with the collaboration with other artists and we have to be independent in all the way and defend our thoughts and our work together. And I think we have the right to apply to all that scholarships and I think it's a very the effort that we do in Mexico is satanic as in other countries but here in Mexico, we have some kind of support but I think and I repeat, I think it's important work together and be more political and be conscious of our environment, what is happening, speak, talk about what is happening in our country, put on the stage and a coup in the public spaces with all that manifestations of, I don't know, not being quiet and not be silence and our work have to speak aloud. Do you mostly rely on private sponsorships or corporate sponsorships or are there any public funds that you can apply to as well? I do, the three of them. The scholar, I mean money from the government and also with the private companies and of course with a social, civil society, I don't know the name in English now but I think three of them are so important and put together and of course it's possible. Thank you. I have another question regarding history. Luis Emilia has briefly mentioned violence throughout our history and I wanted to ask whether this is to all of you whether you think that Mexico's colonial history and the imperial history in that area has affected Mexican society and therefore Mexican political theater? Well, yes, the history in Mexico as any colonial country has been extremely violent and also because of the inquisition and all these prosecutions and a violence that was for example in this very society in segments like very racial, racist society in Mexico, no women, no people born in Mexico would have any possibility to have a post in the government or sometimes not even to be owner of any land if you were not born in Spain for after the Mexican conquest that was itself very violent but in the 19th century also there was a lot of violence and very turbulent then after the independence in 1910, 21 was when it was established we had constant wars, invasions, Maximiliano came to Mexico, he was killed here and a lot of unestability and then dictatorship that was violent also for Fidio Diaz and with not with the rich but with the poor and there was some form of covert slavery and in the 20th century there was the revolution and certain middle class emerged certain higher class emerged and in the cities and in certain parts we had this stabilization somehow and growth but there was a lot of violence against the Indian I mean all these original towns, original in Chiapas and this violence of discrimination of non opportunities and hunger in Mexico we have always and we have now the violence of hunger 60 million people in this country are starving you know, so I think there is a history of violence but we didn't see the violence in the public wide range spaces as we are watching at it now you can see corpses, you know, cut hairs hanging from bridges and it's really generalized that some macabros extreme violence like in a civil war, like we were in a war and it's a war to control the territory between different crime groups but the crime groups are involved with the government so yes, our history has been violent with some stages in which violence became localized the problem is that now we have a generalized violence and in the play revenge there is a part about versions of memories and everybody's version of how something came to pass and this is a question to everyone so feel free to jump in whether you in Mexico, in Mexican society you see people telling themselves or perpetuating versions of events or an alternative history or an alternative view of history what I was talking with Laura the other day is that there is a tradition of honor of the role that men have to give you know, in society so if they hurt somebody of yours there's also a question of honor and I think it should be questioned like of course the government is not we have no state of law we have no state of law so many people have to go and look for revenge by themselves I think that we should search for the values about roles we have a lot of crimes of hate against LGTB communities so I think it comes out of certain values violence is promoted by certain view of reality of the duty that you have to do something in front of certain situation and I question myself we are like back in the Greek theater before La Oresta, you know that after these plain Orestes shouldn't go and keep on killing everybody so there is like a trigonal that is stated and the state of law starts what we have to fight for is to go through and deconstruct all these values that promote violence that have to do with women with manhood and all this and also we have to promote state of law for example now our president is launching you know a public searching that if we the Mexican citizens want the ex-presidents who were obtuse and corrupted should go to jail something which is really advent it shouldn't be asked to the people there is a state of law it's not if we want or not we have a constitution they should go and I mean he's the general attorney if we are going to ask the people who is going to be punished or not we are going back to Mao and to all these popular tribunals that is very dangerous just like a public spectacle on death and justice and all this so that's what I think that we should recognize the value of certain institutions change those institutions if they are corrupted and they don't work but otherwise how are we going to do if we don't get to an agreement in which what we think should be done should not be done is crime and what is not crime I think we are in that refounding we are really changing a paradigm in the world and we have this challenge to think and we found many things and that's the state of things yes I just want to add something yeah like for me also I'm with Los Amelia in everything she has said and also I find something in what the question before you asked you know the colonialism and everything for me the theater as a space where it's not reality but it's in a place in the middle of everything it's a really opportunity what I can see to you know to open the critical code but also to this place first of all to accept our incomes our colonial conscience you know we have it it lives in us and we have it and in this way for me it's really important when I work to have something that I say for example self-attack self-attack you know it's like first I have to attack myself in one way to try to understand why I think this or why I feel this and after I can compare with the outside world but for me the theater is this place to confront yourself first of all and for me it's like to get out of the place of the victim you know we have to get away from this place because if you only stay in the big team of colonialism and everything yeah yeah it's part of everything we are victims yes we are but at the same time we can like move of this place and stop repeating the hate and the recentism I don't know the resentment the resentment we have you know and it's really healthy to do theater you know because in theater for us for me you can kill your mother you can kill your ideas and reappear and practice the reappearance in fiction of new way of thinking and also to forgive this is revenge for me you know it's a place where I want to say I was watching the play and I say okay revenge it was about because I felt really guilty of a lot of things and I want to do this piece to say I'm sorry I'm sorry of my think I'm sorry what I think I'm sorry I don't want to think more I don't want to think more in this and I share with you as a ritual and maybe you know as a ritual and and everybody and I open the space to the to the people to to say sorry also you know to the self and truth and that's that was for me the the healthy I felt after doing this you know it's like we can repair yes we can repair in the imaginary in the fiction in our bodies we can we can tell the story we want to tell in in just one hour and it's enough you know it's enough to reconstruct the critical told and and to imagine another futures possible and perhaps when the self is in balance through this ritual that you talk about in the theater then we can look out towards the problems of society and then see our place in those problems and reflect in those as well Juan Carlos did you find the process healing as well or how was it for your family as well because it was a very personal story was it was it okay with them that you did this project of course not and then it was a very painful process when I I have to make familiar research with that event of my grandmother I did some interviews to my aunts I I take with me my cell phone hiding because they didn't know that I was recording the conversation about that secret because that event was a top secret and they were very angry that my mother told me and and in revenge my aunts told me more secrets from my mother and and I thought and I and I think they did that in revenge because of my mother told me the secret the female the family are secret and of course when they told me that story about my mother it was so painful for me but I think I I just accept that because it was the price that I had to pay for you know looking for something and of course revenge has been a very holy process because I realize that I don't have family and I mean that I that my family my family is not good they are not good persons I mean and I realize that I I also have that bad feelings and I am violent and I feel anger and I want to kill somebody sometimes and and of course as Laura said in theater you allow yourself to being that kind of person and to be violent and and it's okay to just healing yourself and of course for me what's very painful but of course realizing that I'm not a good person and I'm just asking for and as Laura sorry for being for for being this person but but then I realize that I have that I I don't have to be sorry for feel this bad things who tell that is that those feelings are bad of course when you get pain to to to others of course maybe are bad but having you inside just to know that you have that possibilities I think it's okay and um yeah for me what's that and I said a lot of painful words against my mother my grandmother and and today I do I don't know if I regret for having said them but I reflect and I and I and I don't have to be sorry thank you there are there is light and shadow in all of us isn't there yeah haha yeah we just spend a lifetime learning how to act on the light and not on the shadow don't we unfortunately we are running out of time but if anyone has any closing comments then please no I'm just to say thank you very much for this space and and thank you for sharing and and for put us together again after five years and thank you lose Amelia also for being part of this talk and always refreshing all all the context you can bring to us and and not to forget where we are Sam and and yes thank you thank you very much for everyone and and and yeah just the only last thing just to say it's that for me was really important to prevent because in the way that most of the people at the end most of them don't talk about the the anecdotes of them you know the story they talk about the violence and in themselves inside them and how they process in the outside so for me that was a goal and I think it was interesting that so yeah that's it thank you very much yeah it's just well in the case yes thank you for this invitation thanks for inviting me thanks for sharing all your thoughts and feelings and emotions and I have to say one phrase of revenge and we only have versions of who we are absolutely well thank you very much for this this festival this importance that you are giving to the political and the necropolitical theater possibilities and the connection between different countries and different human beings that we are coming from essential human situations with different regional context and also I want to say that theater is not only healing and confronting and changing and transforming possibility during the play or during the the precise experience of the encounter of spectators and those who are in the scenery but it's very important all the process that comes from theater that changes many things in all the participants and in Mexico also has become a process in certain inserted in communities Laura has been working on this a lot too in other place that changes through the process because it's done with people that is involved as a subject or as an object of analysis in the place so it's great to have these spaces and well good luck and keep on seeing thank you very much and thank you thank you to all of you for participating and congratulations Laura and Juan Carlos for such an incredible play in such an incredible performance I think I've told you before how much I've enjoyed it and how I think it was fascinating and so well well made I don't think I got a a chance to say that as for those of you watching thank you so much for staying all this way and don't forget that you can donate to the company there is a link that should show up and also join us again next time in two weeks time to watch clips from a theater company from Afghanistan this time it's called Seamwork Theater and we will be talking with their general director and some of their collaborators about social theater and women's rights in Afghanistan so see you in two weeks time on the 28th of September bye bye bye bye