 The Nigerian Senate advises the federal government to create all inclusive reforms in the Nigerian police force. And the Minister of Transportation, the rotiniar major says China has refused to give Nigeria money for major projects. This is plus politics and I am Josti Akadoho. The Senate has advised the federal government to evolve and implement holistic reforms in the Nigerian police force. It believes employing more able-bodied personnel injected more resources for procuring arms, ammunition and other policing gadgets and regular training will ensure efficient policing in the country. Now these formed parts of the recommendations contained in the report of the joint committee on national security and intelligence, defense, police affairs, judiciary, human rights and legal matters. And the mayhem visited on the seat of Calabar during the NSAS protests in October 2020. In his presentation, chairman of the joint committee, Senator Ibrahim Gorbe, said that investigative hearings by the lawmakers revealed that the violence during the protests was largely spontaneous with no identified goals, leaders, sponsors or financiers. Now joining us to discuss is Lawrence, a lobby former commissioner of police in the FCT and of course Immanuel Ongo Biko, national coordinator of the Human Rights Association of Nigeria, and Jonathan Abang, a journalist. Good evening to you gentlemen, thanks for joining us on Plus Politics. Alright, I'll start with the police commissioner. Lawrence, let's start with you now. All of this just came up in the wake of the NSAS protests in 2020 with Nigerians coming out in agitation, protesting police brutality, extortion, among other injustice that were meted out against Nigerians. But over time, you will agree that they have been talks about reform in the Niger police force. But over time, these reforms have similarly not brought the desired changes that we want to see in the Niger police force. So just exactly how do we begin to create or bring about these changes? What do we need to do differently? Very much so that the Senate has come to realize its obligations in line with session 24, session 14 beyond the conscience provides that secreting the way for this is in the prime purpose of government. Government either at legislative level, executive level or legislative level. So every government should be concerned about the Secretary of Women and Citizens. I'm happy that the Senate has now written to realize the importance of this, that the police has a key element. So the key agency, I mean, that is charged with Internet security. People's agencies in charge of Internet security need to be well equipped, well funded. And again, today now the police is going through terrible stress. The manpower requirement is gross and inadequate. Poor training, because of lack of funds, poor accommodation for both office and residential accommodations, poor equipment. Most DPOs don't have patrol vehicles in their divisions. And when there's a justice call, for instance, what would the DPO do? And sometimes a whole DPO, the whole division, there's only one vehicle. And there could be a justice call, the particular time or period. How would the DPO respond? So there's lots to be done. Not to talk about reform, reform is not just cosmetic reform. Reform in terms of equipment, procurement. Today, security is technologically driven and knowledge based. How has it been applied in the police? I see, even I see the budget that was given recently. The budget is not to worry about base, if you look at their needs. Which concern with the needs of the police that made the police to be effectively efficient, operationally effective, and even in terms of the moral character, human conduct of the police. The police today, most policemen today are aggressive because of the sightings that were so antagonistic to the police. You see, life is based on personal reciprocity. Love beget love. The answers actually made the police to be so dehumanized. Policemen were attacked, policemen were killed. Policemen were burned, police vehicles were burned. And these are not the cause of this insurgency. I know there are some policemen who have actions that are not in line with the rules of engagement, and personal conduct. But the government itself has not developed expectations in terms of ensuring the police adequate manpower. The police visibility is one of the ways to prevent crime. Police visibility, who are the police? The police and the police are less than 500,000. We have 250 million Nigerians. We have the topography. And again, other factors that even as a big criminality, poverty, bad governance, unemployment, poor educational standard, other factors that promote crime, which were not caused by the police, but the police are not at the serving end. So the government should have the political will so that the police is well funded. They should do mass recruitment. In fact, the police did at least 10 million every year for the next five years. 10 million every year for the next five years. At least that would be able to build the strength of the police. And then equipment, like drones, CCTVs. Equipment and equipment should be applied to the police. For instance, do you know that sometime when the government is being commented that the police need to track a criminal? The police go and look for a private tracker. It's embarrassing. The police say they cannot track. They don't have their own effective, efficient functional tracking mechanism. They go to higher private tracks. All right. Thank you. In terms of training capacity. All right. I'm Lauren. Yes. All right. Thank you, Lawrence, for your opening salvo. We'll still talk more about these changes that you have talked about, but let's get other members of the panel to also share their own views. I can turn in this important discussion. Let me get to Emmanuel on what we call human rights, rights as association of Nigeria. Indeed, you have captured most of all the injustices that have been meeting out to Nigerians by the members or officers of the Nigerian police force, including extortion. One that comes to mind is what happened a lot too long ago where a policeman asking the demand to extortion one millionaire from just citizens. But if we were to talk about these reforms, the police commissioner who just spoke with us talked about training, talked about equipping them with equipment and all they need to make their jobs better. What do we do about renewing their mindset and of course, the way they see or relate to Nigerian civilians? How can we begin to create the desired reform in that particular direction? Emmanuel. Thank you very much. I want to say first and foremost that the NSAS protest that took place around October of last year was one of the best things to have happened to this country. The best. Unfortunately, one of the finest phenomenon is an event that the police ought to have seized upon to begin some kind of internal cleansing mechanisms. But unfortunately, because of the fact that a lot of reactionary elements are embedded in the federal government, a lot of talks, armed talks were smuggled in, were brought in that infiltrated that very wonderful protest that even happened for up to four days without any violent incident before imported foreign talks. When I say foreign, I don't mean non-Nigerians. I mean people who were brought in from different parts of the country. A lot of them were brought in from Kano into Abuja. And Nigerians, some of us who were at the protest, were the way some SUVs, brand new SUVs were actually driving these armed talks to the centers of this protest to interrupt the protest and to begin to kill, attack, you know, protesters. So the event itself is a very, in fact, it's the first time in the history of this country that you have a largest number of youth come out to say we are denouncing the modus operandi of the Nigerian police force that have been in place for ages. Issue of police brutality, issues of extrajudicial killings, the issues of extortion. If you go to the southeast prior to that entrance protest, the entire southeast became like an occupying, as if the police is an occupying force. We had the mounts, roadblocks on the major highways and they were extracting, you know, vehicles, extracting, you know, passengers, escorting everybody to the sea. And unfortunately, that event that happened, it seems no lessons have been learned because so many of those manifestations of illegalities by the police are still going on because even here in Abuja, where we live, not too long ago, a young man who even posted on social media that he was robbed by some policemen who stopped his Uber that he was using in the night and they took him to an ATM and they emptied his entire account. And this kind of incident is not very uncommon. It's something that happens, actually, every time. Because it was a very notorious attitude of the SARS that were said to have been disbanded. But we're not to show if SARS has actually been disbanded because immediately the disbanded SARS, they now replace SARS with a different SARS. So it was just like a baptismal change of name. So what I'm saying is this, the event has come and gone. Nigerians need to learn a lot of positive lessons. They need to have some kind of constructive partnership between the civil society and the police in its practical applications. We need to clean up the police. The policing mechanisms in Nigeria is very much outdated. The police seem to be operating in the kind of mindset that they had when they were set up by the colonialists, set up to service the colonial masters and not to serve the interests of the collective, the interests of the Nigerian citizens. So if we want to talk about police reforms, what is the structure of the police that we have? The policing structure that we have right now, the police institution that we have in Nigeria is completely... Can I use the word outdated? We need to reform the police by creating the legal frameworks to allow states to have their state police, to have their local police, to have a kind of policing structure that civilized societies like the US, like Britain, are operating where you have metropolitan police. You can see the efficiency of the police in the UK. You can see the efficiency of the police in Los Angeles or in the New York police and the rest of the... I mean, the rest of the state police institutions they have. So we really have to reform the police. Then secondly, there has to be transparency and accountability within the policing hierarchy. The policing hierarchy is opaque. The way they operate their finances is very opaque. Nobody knows exactly how many policemen we have in a state like Lagos. How many policemen do we have? What is the total count of the police? Every other year, every president comes in and says, I'm going to recruit 10,000 police every other time. They're recruiting 10,000 police, 10,000 police, 10,000 police. And in most of those cases, the formality they adopt in getting those police recruits are not very compliant to 21st century global best practices because even the police service commission, weak as it is, inefficient as it is, even raised an alarm yesterday that they have noticed that armed robbers are being recruited into the police as I speak. This is exactly what the former president of this country, Chief of Police, Obasanjo, mentioned, and it wasn't taking serious. A lot of armed robbers are in the police, wearing the uniform, wearing all the police. Even the police commissioners don't know how many police they have. All right, mother. All right, mother, thanks. All right, mother, thanks for those points that you've made, and I'm sure I'll still get the former police commissioner to address some of them that you have raised. But I still want the journalist, Jonathan, to join in this particular discourse. You know, Imanu seems to believe that the N. Sazam protest was one of the best things that happened to us as a country. And I just came out on mass to vent out Imanu, Jonathan, can you hear me? Yeah, I can hear you. All right, fine. So I was just trying to just lay my line of thought here. What Imanu said brought the N. Sazam. But over time, it's been this, like, the second year since the 2020 protest by Nigerians across the country. But would you really say that the police is changing in direction of the N. Sazam protest? The police is changing, you know, in direction, in the way they are, you know, relating with average Nigerians? Because from what we hear, from what we read and from reports we have been saying, it's as though all of the things that Nigerians are asking for are not really being met. What are your thoughts, really? Well, from experience and from what I have reported and from what I get that, you know, at the judicial level, you say, but some feel there has been some change. To the greater extent, the truth is, well, I doubt there has been really any change. And the reason for that is very simple. We have the police, which is basically the militia of the elite. And like Imanu and I have said, that the police is basically the police of the N. Sazam is such that, so just what we look at, we are still loyal to, you know, public officers and not necessarily public officers, they are all the acts fair. Now, of course, Lawrence had to be retired in that series there, and I've already said that two people, the police is actually, you know... Jonathan, I'll try and reconnect with you. We're having a difficulty trying to really get your audio clearly, but we'll try and see if we can get that better. But let's just bring Lawrence back into the discourse. Commissioner, let's talk about some of the concerns that one of the panelists have mentioned. He talked about transparency in operation. He also talked about the structure of the Niger police. He believes that it is our data. Don't you think that is one angle that needs to be looked into with all the stock of reforms? And again, I also want you to address these issues that we have. Do we still have SARS, or is SWAT another nomenclature that have just replaced the operations of the SARS? Because from reports we are getting, it is as though nothing has actually changed. And I'm sure you are aware of what happened in those state benign to be precise where the Niger police abused the obligation and extorted over one million from a student there. I just want you to just react to some of these points that I have just mentioned. Yeah, thank you very much. To a large extent, there are some points which I agree with him. But clearly where they said the police, the police of Parandia has not, is colonial in nature. In the police expert, we have been establishing different types of policing. And the style of policing is predicated on the timing by the type of company in the country. That's how we have the colonial administration, the colonial policing, which was best purely to protect the colonial interests, not the interests of the citizens. That was why there was a brutality, there was repressive policing, abuse of human rights, and what a few. Not too long ago, in the pendant, the military came on board. And the military also ruled on the rule by the two democratic process, the two bodies of the gun. And the military ruled by decrease, immediate effects and so forth. And the military is based on force, a position of force. The military is based on a position of force. People are being compelled. People are not going to understand that you have to really do something, you know, participate in governance. So actually, but today, we're not in democratic dispensation. What the police need is that the police need what I call democratic policing. Democratic policing. Democratic policing. Policing conforming to democratic norms. I'm going to mean the needs of the people. Democratic norms are human rights protection, rights of the citizens, policing the needs of the citizens, and also we have accountability and transparency in the operations, and they've been humane. The police are not policing animals or the forest. Policing human leadership. They're human content. Human content, the fear of God, human content. Commissioner, would you really say that during the training for recruitment for police, new recruits that these are, do they undergo through all of these issues or at this point that you have made to show consent for human rights? Are they really aware of what the law says concerning all of this? People over time have talked about the psychological training for the police. Do they have to go through all of this when they are at the recruitment stage? Like I told you, the type of government in the country determines type of policing. When the police came through, like I said, by the colonial masters, not too long ago, the military came on board, the same attitude for regime protection, but they were there to protect instead of the colonial administration. So when they also were independent, particularly that also adopted the same system, that the police had to protect instead of the government. And that was what eliminated the police on the people. And it also saw the police as an agent of government against the people. That was at the mentality of this public antagonism against the police. Because the police, when it was established, right now we have a democratic dispensation. They probably need to be reorientated. They need to be trained. And applying democratic principles, emotional intelligence, these are things they need to apply. But that has not been done. So I think that's what we're talking about reform. Everything is born on attitude. Not just on our structure, whether it's the state police or federal police. It's attitude is key. That orientation, let them know that they are there to serve the people. When our CPF city, it's all dependent on the officers' orientation. It should be time for lunch. And our CPF city, I tell my officer in the F.C. Police Commander, the way you want your brothers to be police in a village or your town. That's how we are policemen in everybody in F.C. Police. If you don't want to brutalize, you don't want to be extorted, you don't do it in Abuja. And I enforce that. Because I believe in democratic policing. Because it needs interest of the people. Understand? So it is when all this is done. But again, the police, because frustration is one of the things they are doing, the way they are behaving. The police said, their poor salaries, I don't understand why the policeman should end less than the military officer. The police officer should end less than the military officer. And the policeman is feeling more every day of his life. So are you saying that the poor renumeration is actually one of the reasons why the police would actually start doing things alright and not really care about the average man on the street? Frustration breeds some negative attitude. Frustration. Even when you're in your house, why are you being frustrated? Even if they manage to motivate you. So you are advocating that there should be better funding for the Nigerian police. Although we have heard that they are looking into that this year. I'll still come back to you to get your closing thoughts and all of that. But I still want to bring up other members of the panel. I don't know if you still have Jonathan online. We'll continue with Emmanuel then. The former FCT has tried to clarify some of the points that you had made so far concerning the issues the average Nigerian policeman go through. But let's talk more. I still want to hammer on this part of psychological training. Do you think that in any way would that go a long way in reducing all of this inhuman attitude of the policeman to civilians? Would that change anything? Or what more do you really think should be done? First and foremost, as someone who has lived in Abu Dhabi for over 20 years, I want to say that C.P. Alobi, what he said is even did much more than what he has said in terms of exemplary leadership. So why are the commands not borrowing the leave from the FCT then? Let me land. The problem with the police system we have in this country is that the moment somebody starts doing well in a particular department, they don't keep that person for more than two years, three years they just pull at the person and take him to somewhere very consequential. Is that deliberate? There are very good policemen but there are a lot of good well educated police officers in this country. What I'm saying is this. What is happening to some of those very excellent police officers, good professionals that have left the police service? Why have they not been made cosortrans and people maybe include them as part of the training formation so that people that are coming into police, being elicited into police right now will learn a lot from how they actually serve the country. But that system is not there. The moment somebody retires as the police, even most of those IGs, for instance, did excellently as an IG of police. Some of those wonderful police IGs that have left you don't get to see them visiting the police headquarters. What is happening? When a retired general in the army lives, you always see them have partnerships. They have a lot of programs. When they have programs for training they invite them to train those younger soldiers. So what I'm saying is this. Nigeria already has one of the best police acts. Nigerian Police Act of 2020 that was signed by the president of this country. Take a look at it if you read it. It's quite very simple to understand. One of the best. A lot of provisions in that act have elaborated so much about the need for the police officer to respect the fundamental human rights of Nigerians. But the problem we have is that that's what I'm saying. A lot of these police officers I mean, especially the recruits that didn't go beyond secondary school most of the officers they have in the police are graduates, diploma holders most of them are well educated. They may be aware of these police acts that have just been signed into law for I think about 3 months or 2 months by the president. So the ITO police, the commissioners of police, there has to be a mass production. Now we have the Ministry of Police Affairs. Ministry of Police Affairs should do mass production of the copies of the police act and make it compulsory set up a test. Before you recruit any police officer he must pass the test of understanding what is included in that police act of 2020. But right now the police is even having credibility deficit. They're even having problem of finding robust and well educated young men to join the police. Everybody's aware that even right now they're even saying certain sections of the country are not actually coming forward to be recruited into the police force. That's why we need to restructure the system. We need to restructure the policing institution in Nigeria. Alright thank you. Alright Jonathan let's try and get your own opinion in age wise. I couldn't really understand what you were saying because of some disconnect there. But I just want to get your general thoughts concerning this holistic reform of the Niger police. In what direction should we be headed? Jonathan. I think we lost Jonathan there. Alright sorry about that but let's just get some final words now from the former police CP, Lawrence, a lobby let's try and sum all of this up going by all the points that have been raised by you and of course by Emmanuel. So what should we be doing in the immediacy? What should we do because our thrust be right now in the short term? Thank you very much that the reform should be holistic and empirical and again like he made the point. The point is that the police have not been able to explore the sources they have of retired officers. We are very fine knowledgeable and professional police officers who are retired but the leadership of the force has not come to leverage and like the chief of defense staff is doing, the chief of defense staff is going through, is going visiting all the country, interacting as creating a space where they are interacting with retired officers, military officers as in the chair to come and see they can contribute to add value and bring about a transformation that will enhance the performance of the military. This is what the police also do. The IT should at least get some knowledgeable and experienced police officers as team tank, as consultant. The young ones carry the ranks but they don't have the knowledge they don't have the knowledge and experience. So I think the IGM, I don't know whether I'm sure there are some of them in this program, we should at least invite some retired officers who are very knowledgeable who are well exposed. You see outside the country, as in Nigeria our police are one of the best. IGM tried their federal law for five years and they are the longest trainees of Nigerian police. They take up very well. All right, thank you. All right, thank you from our CP, Lawrence, and of course I should say thanks to Emmanuel who joined us on this particular discussion and Jonathan a journalist in as much as I would have really loved to get your own opinion concerning all of these issues of police brutality dehumanizing of civilians and all of that that happened in our polity. Well thank you for staying with us. We'll take a short break now and when we return Nigeria moves from China to Europe for loads. How could the incessant borrowing affect us in the nearest future? More in a moment. Thank you.