 Ooh, I feel attacked. Boom, shot to the heart. Listen, it's the message right here. Black boy tell me how you really feel. Cause I just want to build with you. Black girl tell me how you really feel. I want to keep it real with you. I want to live better, eat better. I want to love better, sleep better. Yeah, I want to feel so aligned. I guess the thing, like you were saying with these conversations with men expressing their frustration happened in barber shops that happened on the basketball court. Do you think that those men actually set their women down and tried to explain to them what the issues were? Cause I question if we know how to have that raw transparent communication with one another without it being shouting at one another. So even if we talk about the manosphere, like you said, we could say Oprah, Ricky Lake, the people that you mentioned, they pander to women. I think a lot of these platforms are pandering to the frustration of men. And it's fine that you're frustrated. It's not what you say, it's how you say it. And so I just feel like a lot of it is from more of, it's like an attacking point of view versus I want you to hear me, let's figure out a resolution. We're just stuck in the phase of a shouting back and forth at one another. I agree, I agree. I think I agree and disagree. I think it's not what you say, it's how you say it. But I think a step further is also like who is saying it and when they're saying it. Like some people like, for instance, people had an issue with Kevin Samuels, his tone, his tone, his tone. Somebody like Kendra G is saying the exact same things. And she's not even being listened to. People back in the day, or back to the 90s, they had a problem with Scheherazade Ali. And one of the people who had a problem with Scheherazade Ali was Eyal Avansant. Fast forward 27 years later, she's saying the exact same thing, black women are out of order, people still aren't listening. So it's, at first I thought it was the tone, second I thought it was the messenger, it's actually the message. And unfortunately, I think why the message is met with so much resistance is because in as much as men are taught, women are sugaring spice and everything nice, women are taught that too. And some of what that instills in you was a sense of benevolence. It's a sense of my shit don't stink. And nobody is gonna tell me otherwise. And what's funny is, one of the questions I would ask early on during the series, I would ask women like, why don't other women call women out on bullshit? And one of the responses I got, for instance, was we don't wanna lose our friendships. So if other women can't even call women out on bullshit, what hope do niggas have? With bass in our voice and not being as societally articulate and cunning as women are socialized to be. The average little girl is gonna speak before her male counterpart. She's gonna have a more complex understanding of facial expressions and conversational nuance earlier than her male counterpart. So we're not socialized to communicate the way that I've learned how to. So when we communicate the best way we know how, even if we have learned how to communicate better, it's met with who are you or how dare you say, I got stuff in my teeth. My teeth are pearly white because I think they are. So we have to address both sides. Yes, men can become better communicators. But the reality for a lot of men who've tried is that a lot of women are not receptive to anything outside of race and adoration. I think you have to accept that you can't save everybody though. And that's the thing. And maybe I'm just a glass half full type of person, but I face a lot of opposition with the things that I talk about too. And a lot of opposition does come from women. And so I just kind of have to accept that those are not my people. If you don't receive my message, that's fine. But I know there's a whole entire other group of people who do feel what I say around the same wavelength and they're receptive to it. And so I just wonder why we're not focusing on those people is the perception that those people are just not out there at all. Cause I know that there are, I have conversations like this with women and I do whole women accountable. I want my friends to do the same for me. But I don't know if men, kind of like what you said earlier, you don't feel like women are trying to better themselves for men. But then on your, what is it that I am the table 2.0? That conversation stood out to me because she mentioned that this whole soft girl era is a thing. And I will say that, I think that whole aesthetic tick-tock thing is BS. Honestly, I don't like it. It's very sugarcoated, packaged it up and sell it to people. But there are women who are out there who are really trying to better themselves. And I think one of the, some of the pushback we get is that it's not believable. You guys are trying to do this, all of a sudden it's not real. So it kind of sends a message to women like, okay, well I am trying, but you guys don't believe that I'm trying and you don't think it's coming from a genuine place. So why am I trying? I think for the women who are trying, I would say that the number one thing you should do is get in the habit of actually listening to men. So like you said earlier, watch a whole Kevin Samuel stream. Watch some of the men that, in real life you might not even associate with, but they have galvanized such a large following of men that something they're saying is resonating. Because I think what tends to happen is women tend to gravitate towards the dare Jacksons and the, what's the other dude's name? He's got like hazel eyes. Oh, Tony Gaskins? Tony Gaskins and things like that. And it's like more so, they're jizzing full of shit. Tony Gaskins is a reformed gigolo. So he has a bit more truth, but the reason a lot of men don't resonate with him is because he has already done all the shit that the average guy just wants to get a taste of. So of course it's easy for you to say, yeah man, you need to settle down because you had fucked like 200 women before you graduated high school. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? So it's like, if women got in the habit of actually listening to men and actually listening to men's grievances and starting from a place of I see value in men. Because I think the prevailing narrative is that men have no value outside of what they can do for you. So a real soft girl life, soft girl era, I think is rooted in the idea that men are inherently valuable. And if I want one in my life, I have to make myself palatable and attractive to the caliber of man that I see value in. But I think to your point, a lot of what we're seeing in the soft girl stuff that, which is why we don't believe it is like, soft girl life is by getting your nails done and getting pedicures and manicures and looking the part. And what men have been saying is that that's not your shortcoming. When if we were to line up women around the world as far as beauty, y'all are at the front of that line. But men are not running to America to find wives. They're running to Asia. Why is that? Asian women ain't built like y'all. Facially Asian women ain't what y'all, you know. So what is it that men actually want for a lifetime instead of for a night? And I think part of the reason again, why the soft life thing isn't resonating with men or men don't believe it is like, I'm telling you that your legs are fully developed. You need to work your upper body. The next few times I see you in the gym, you're still doing squats. I hear you. That's what I mean when I say it's very glamorized because I think the part that's being missed and this can be said about the whole healing journey things, I feel like that's the thing that is very saturated now as well. And it's not pretty and it's not easy at all. But I think that women are seeing the aesthetic piece of it, so what might come in the end of that journey but people aren't really doing the inner work. And it's hard therapy, reflecting on a lot of things, realizing that you're not perfect and you probably messed up in the past, we shy away from those things. So that part isn't happening and I agree with you. But I do wanna challenge something that you can. Challenge something I say, go ahead. Because you said that women only see value women based on what they can do for them. My argument is that men are actually operating in the same way nowadays. And I realize this when I talk to men and you ask them what they're looking for in a woman and a lot of it is what she can do for me, right? And I don't think that the soft skills, the person who she is internally is valued as much. Cause I think for me, when I think of a partner, the thing that I value the most about them is who they are as a person. I want you to be my best friend, I want us to be connected in that way. And everything else outside of that is an added bonus because you might make a lot of money today but something might happen tomorrow where you don't make a lot of money. And so I need you to have that substance so that I do still see value in you. I don't think that men are focusing on that substance. And so you can say, well, I'm a good woman and I'm caring and I'm gonna be supportive and all these things. And I don't think that that is enough for a lot of men that I talk to. Let's talk about it. Well, I think first and foremost, we have to admit that at the top of men's party list and selection, sexual selection is gonna be aesthetic. We talk about facial symmetry, meaning that you're gonna have healthy offspring. We talk about waist-to-hip ratio, meaning that you're going to more easily carry a baby to term and deliver. But it's been in breast-roundness and all that good stuff. Like it's ingrained in our DNA to want an aesthetically pleasing woman. But the other part too is the beauty of our woman is also a status symbol. You know that reggae song, Girl You Are Our King Troll? Yes. You know what I mean? It's a status symbol to tell other men to tell society at large that, yeah, I'm that dude because look, not just look at how she looked but look how well I take care of her. In some circles in corporate America, if you're not married, for instance, you're not getting in. Right. You know what I mean? Because how can I trust you if you haven't paired with somebody and I can see by how clear their eyes are, how clear their skin is, that you are about what you preach? Right, so the beauty thing is first. The beauty thing is first. As far as you're saying it's about what the woman does for the man, I agree. I agree. But I also think love is supposed to be quid pro quo. It's supposed to be I scratch your back, you scratch mine. Yes. I don't believe in, what is it called? Unconditional love. I don't think humans can fathom not putting conditions on anything. I don't think we're capable of it but I'm open to be challenged there. But so with that being said, all I'm advocating for is your value should be clear to me and my value should be clear to you. Because you know, I feel good when my woman looks good. And just like I said before, it's also part of my status level. So if I'm not treating you good, you can't look good to make me look good. So it's a cyclical thing. Am I gonna say most men are able to articulate that or most men are concerned about that? No, I can't say that. But I think at the core of it, you being good makes me good. You looking good makes me look good. And I think there should be some reciprocity there. Yes, I do agree with that actually. So I guess the point that I'm making is when we have the quote that you said, the Chris Rock quote that everyone likes to say, you know, the only people who are loved unconditionally are children and animals, right? I agree with you that yes, there should be conditions and I should be getting something out of the relationship reciprocity. So why, if we know that this is true, why are we making statements like women only see value in men who are giving something to them? Isn't that the way that it should be? Why is that demonized? Like the whole gold digger thing? Not even just a gold. I mean, I guess you get to maybe selfish. I mean, that's the big thing. Like you only want me if I'm providing something to you. But why is that bad? It's not, for me, it's not. Like when I hear people talk about certain like gold digger stuff, yeah, I'm not with that because I feel like if you're not adding value to a woman's life, to play God's advocate a little bit, to try to articulate what some of those people are saying. I think just like women were raised on fairy tales, men were raised on fairy tales too. And a lot of dudes, I think part of the reason why we struggle is we were led to believe sometimes by our mother, sometimes by media that if we love a woman enough, if we buy her enough flowers and we go on enough long walks on the beach and we have enough conversations, my ability to take care of her won't matter. In the real world, that's not true. In my culture, for instance, like I don't just have to prove to you that I'm a good man, I also have to prove to your father that I'm a good man. Like we still do doubt in Ebo culture, we still do dowries. Like I have to come with my people to your people and they're going literally based on your beauty, your level of education, your contribution to the household, they will literally come up with a number. And if I can't pay that number, I can't marry you. And on the face, it's like we're selling our daughter, but the idea behind it is it's a test to prove your capacity to take care of her. And also it's a consolation for the whole that's now gonna be missing in our family. Now that she's at Joe House doing all the good shit that she know how to do instead of here. So, yeah, I think that's why a lot of do struggle with that because they were told that life was a fairytale. And you know, I should just be able to love her and we gonna be bones and she'll, you know, there's a, there's a, there's this guy, he's a, he gave a TED talk, what's his name? Alian DeButton. And he talks about romance and I fuck with him because he has conceptualized romance in a way that I think a lot of us don't discuss. And one of the main things he talks about is how our idea of romance was created by unemployed European artists. Long walks on the beach watching the sunset and shit like that. They didn't have jobs. You can't do that stuff if you're living a real life, right? But a lot of our ideals are created by those, you know, the fancies and the fantasies of people who were bumps for the most part. And I think it affects the reason why men, for instance, have a hard time wrapping their minds around like, you have to be able to take care of her, bro. Outside of just making her feel good. You have to be able to show that you could potentially take care of your offspring. So me personally, and this might be where I deviate from the hemisphere, no, I don't think there's anything wrong in a woman discriminating against a man because he is not able to provide for her. Where it does become wrong is when you create arbitrary, very superficial metrics like six figures. You don't need six figures to take care of a family. You know what I'm saying? You don't need to be driving the Mercedes. You know what I'm saying? You don't need to be living in a high-rise. And that's where I have a problem with it. But a woman is saying, oh, he needs to be employed. He needs to have a place, a car, that's reasonable. That's reasonable. It is reasonable. But I think the problem is kind of like what you were saying about how romanticized we see things when dating, we don't have examples to see what it looks like in real time, right? So if I didn't see my mother and father interacting to see the good, the bad, the ugly in a relationship, I now have to look to TV, what I see in books, what I see in Disney to formulate what I think a man or a woman should look like. And that's what I think we're both struggling with, 100%. But then it gets to a point where we have to figure out what the solution is and kind of tracing back to the patients, the grace that you give to people. So if I'm working on myself and you're actively working on yourself, is that not enough? Why are we expecting one another to come together, 100% perfect, and then we will see that black men and black women have value? Man, that's, I don't know if we have the luxury to wait on when we're healed. And also, I don't think being healed is a place, I think it's a journey. Like I don't think you're ever 100%. Absolutely. You know what I mean, especially when you consider the generational trauma that we've endured and the, I don't know if you're familiar with epigenetics, you know what I'm saying? Like some of that trauma isn't even stuff you experienced. Some of it is secondhand, some of it is in your DNA. Yeah, so I don't think it goes away. I think the main thing, the main indicator, if I had to like speculate is just somebody willing to listen. That's it. Somebody willing, somebody who's open to hearing black women's stories. Flipside, a woman who's willing to hear black women's stories. I think one of the things that I would like to see is more black women willing to hear our stories. For instance, during Cori and I's interview after I posted it, one of the comments from a woman was, this was bad, but you did talk about how you didn't pay her enough attention. You did talk about, you know what I mean? Like the reflex was to, as opposed to just listen. If it was flipped, if Cori was Coriana and a dude commented to that, like, yeah, you didn't give him enough sex and this, this and that. It'll be a problem. Okay. You know? So that's what I would like to see more from the female delegation is literally just listening. And really, I've been saying this for a while. Men are people too. We're not socialized to believe that. Even men, we're not socialized to believe that because for so long, our utility was rooted in our, in how disposable we were. I think about it. Men that were celebrated were warriors. You're disposable at war. Where men of industry, you're disposable at the job. You know? So a lot of men's identity is rooted in our disposability and a lot of women's expectations in us are also rooted in our disposability. So we have to start dismantling that, especially as black, that's men in general, but especially as black people, we have to start dismantling that and starting to try to see value in men outside of just his disposability. You know? Is it going to happen tomorrow, though? But I'm hoping with some of these conversations, we can kind of move in that direction. I hope so too. So I guess my big overarching question for you and your viewers, because I know they'll probably say something. They're going to say them Vancouver nods, That's what they're going to say. For women who are, let's say, 28 plus, right? Is the general perception that it's too late for us? Because I see a lot of people say, this generation is pretty much done, but maybe the next generation, they can get it right. But there's still women who are still fairly young. They want to have a family and stuff. And we're just kind of in this in-between phase where we don't know if we're kind of like a lost cause. Do you feel like we are coachable and you're willing to work with us? Or is that just the fantasy at this point? I think it depends on the type of man you want. Like the type of man you would be comfortable with. I like being a dude. I think if I was a woman, I'd probably be a dyke. But because it's so much, it's so much like, it's such a nuanced existence, primarily because for instance, if you're 25, and let's say you're ready to settle down, have kids in the whole nine. And biologically that's the optimal time. Most 25 year old dudes, they ain't really trying to settle down because they haven't even made it yet. They haven't sold their royal oats yet. So then your options become either you get with an older man who might not be as exciting or fun or relate to me as well as my 25, 26, 27 year old dude but is more ready for the things that I ultimately want. Or I wait for maybe the opportunity where this 25 year old dude, maybe when he's 27, decides he's ready to leave the streets. And I think it's the same thing for like 28, 29, 30 year old woman. The question would be, what are you willing to sacrifice? What do you want most? And if kids is part of that equation, I know a lot of people talk about in vitro and shit like that and vitro is fucking expensive. It is. Number one, number two, it's not 100% successful. So to have that as a plan A is ridiculous. But yeah, if kids are primary driving thing, then you really have to decide like these things on my list, what can I start crossing off? Cause if I find this dude who checks off these things on my list, it means checking off other people's lists as well. So why would he want to, and this goes back to, can you think from the perspective of a man? Right. But yeah, yeah, do you think some women's lists are too long or do you think they're not long enough? I think, so with the whole listing, I think it's very complex, right? Because I do think that women have very long lists, but I also believe that when a woman finds a man that she likes, even if he doesn't hit a lot of things on that list, she'll start being a little bit more accommodating and she might relax some of the things that are on there. So yes and no. What I do think though is that we we're more willing to accept a guy who aesthetically or materialistically checks the boxes on our list, but doesn't meet the internal qualities that would make a relationship successful. Whereas if we have a good guy who has those internal qualities, but he's not aesthetically pleasing or doesn't make the money that we want him to make, we won't entertain that guy. And so I do think that it puts us in a vicious cycle because then the way that we're navigating dating is counterproductive to what we want our end goal to be. So yeah. I think it's partly why a lot of guys stop empathizing with women because in my experience, most women, especially the ones who are relatively more attractive than average, they have at least one guy in their phone. If they call them, it was like, you know what Steve? I'm ready. The motherfucker would drive down or fly down for wherever he is and scoop you up. So the question now becomes, is your list in priority order? Ooh, I'm feeling tagged. Yeah, it's like, boom, boom, shout to the heart. Wow, yeah. Okay. You got a Steve? I think everyone that has a Steve, honestly. And she don't even have to be above average looking. Like every woman probably has a Steve. Yeah. But I think that we, again, going back to this idea of feeling like you have more options than you really do. And so we're always searching for something better. There was this, it was like a meme or like a video that I saw. The house? No, the woman, she was running up the stairs. Did you see that one? And she kept going to the next floor. I think somebody's better than she got to the top and there was nobody there. And I think that's what a lot of people face. Probably when we get older and, you know, appearance starts changing and things like that where we spent so much time trying to find something better and then we realized that there's nothing there. To, in y'all's defense, I do think it's a consequence of women now having to fall into purpose is be men. You now have to take care of yourself and this, this and that. The aesthetic requirements that I think our mothers and our grandmothers were more relaxed on and the charisma requirements. Now it's like, nah, you got to be that dude or you hear a lot of women say, if you're not him, I don't want it. Like I would rather be by myself than to waste my time with a man who is not whatever I've deemed to be the optimal. Whereas back in the day, a lot of our parents and grandparents, they wanted a man. So like there was a survey a few years ago and I think it was even among white people, but they asked men, if you found a woman with 80% of what you want, would you be okay with that? Most people were like, hell yeah, 80% hell yeah. They asked women, women say that's not enough. So what do you think the number is for a woman that is enough? Women are weird, right? Because to your point, if you like a dude, you'll throw that list away. But I think most women, if they were just making the list just by themselves, they'd say, no, he's got to be all these sixes. He's got to be this, this, this, and this, and I'm starting there. And I think where it hurts y'all sometimes is that when you are encountered with a potentially great guy, you don't meet him with your best self because he's not checking these arbitrary boxes, right? So like, you guys could have been a great match in this and that, but like, he's too short. So you even talking to him like he ain't shit. You feel what I'm saying? Or he's too light or too dark, whatever you're into. So you're not even giving him like your best. So now he doesn't even see you as a potential, whatever, right? And I think it's just catch 22. One of the best lists I've ever heard from a woman, she said, I only want four things. She said, I don't care if the dude is too tall, too short, too skinny, too fat too. She said, and I've been telling women this list because I think it is the optimal list because it's concise. She said, you have to be able to make me think. You have to be able to make me laugh. You have to be able to make me feel safe. And you have to be able to make me. Okay. And what's funny about that list is like, when a lot of women are talking about, for instance, I want a man who's tall or big or muscular, what they're really saying is I want to feel safe. Yeah. Now they've boiled it down to a superficial thing, but I know some five, five, knock out a six foot three dude, you know? So I would encourage women, again, prioritize your list and then condense it as much as you can and make the main thing the main thing because you might be overlooking or running off potentially, man, freaking tastic options. Grandpa, wasn't that damn cute? Yeah, way out down the house, huh? That's what I'm saying. Your dad is at six, five. Like your great-grandfather did not make six figures of his time. He worked in the coal mine. Like, come on, we got to start. Yeah. And I think part of what's frustrating for me is I think women have abandoned their power in the sense that women, and not just women, but females of any species literally dictate the market. Whatever women are saying they want to see for men is what men become. That's why we're growing struggle beards. That's why we get the haircuts we get. That's why we wear the outfits we wear because we're trying to get y'all on a shallow end. We're trying to get some pussy. On a high end, we're trying to find a mate, right? So if women start saying, oh no, I want men to be more chivalrous, more well-dressed, more well-grown, whatever the case may be, we will see more of that. But as long as our women on the Mac or asking for superficial metrics, yeah, you're gonna see a lot of six-foot dudes, six-foot assholes. So are you thinking from the perspective of is this man going to be a potentially great father and grandfather? Or are we gonna potentially take great Instagram pictures? I think most women are only thinking about this, Instagram pictures. And great. It's supposed to be longevity.