 And so we wanted to create a panel of artist activists to see what the border of this is. I'll just say very briefly, you know, the riot and riot's excursions, when we were sennahs, the co-cure and I were talking about this, really evoked for us something like the Stonewall uprising of 1969, as well as some of the work in the late 60s done by the Black Panthers, the Gay Liberation Front and other movements. And we thought, you know, some of these paradigms of the late 60s and this relationship between art and activism are still current, still valuable touchstones, models maybe even to follow and some paradigms or tactics, strategies, ways of thinking may need to get completely thought through and have so been thought through by very many people. So it's a real privilege to have this little experiment in programming for the festival but I'm thrilled for this panel, thrilled that you're here and I'll turn it over to Manteo who is the moderator of this event. Thank you. Let's gather in a circle. So if you could all come in here. There is video we want to share it later on so even though we can speak and hear each other without these mics, we'll do it for the rest of people but yes, let's gather. There's so many beautiful seats over there. Yes, thank you. Come on in. Let's stand. Let's breathe. Let's make this a call to action. I would like each of us to go around. We're small enough that we can do this. You can say your name and if you would like to add your pronoun so that we know who's in the room and we know how we can stay unaccountable to each other and hold each other up as we hear the incredible work that these three are able to share with us to inspire us on and to receive all that you are bringing into this room right now for our sake as well. So May Ann, Shinde, Patrick, he is, Michael, Tatlidia, Frank and Shko, Gio Geller, Wee, Marissa, Richie, Katlidia, Shibara, he is. Thank you. Let's sit together. Last night I found myself at Park Avenue Armory sitting at the feet of Satoshi Miyagi's Antigone and there was some text that I felt rang so true that I thought that in the lineage of great literature and theater globally you could bring into the room. Vishmini says, but oh Antigone, think how much more terrible than these our own death would be if we should go against Creon and do what he has forbidden. We are only women, we cannot fight with men. Antigone, the law is strong. We must give in to the law in this thing and in worse. I beg the dead to forgive me but I am helpless. I must yield to those in authority and I think it is dangerous business to always be meddling. Antigone responds, if that is what you think I should not want you even if you ask to come. You have made your choice. You can be what you want to be but I will bury him and if I must die I say that this crime is holy. I shall lie down with him in death and I shall be as dear to him as he to me. I'm so grateful to be here with these three who actively put their bodies, their full bodies and spirits in the line of fire who commit holy crimes and I wanted to open up by allowing them to have the space to share like what their work is in this time and age that we are in. Do you have to start? Sure, so hi everybody. Again my name is Jabari, Jabari Bristbord. I came into activism through the arts. Actually I think one of the first pieces I created when I was very proud of was a spoken word about gay marriage back when state after state was just saying that it was going to be illegal. It was very personal to me and I had a chance to go back and perform at my high school and like you know and I encourage other people to like talk about their experiences as well. But most recently I've shifted away from the arts. I'm actually a public school teacher now in Crown Heights. I teach math at a middle school on Nostra Avenue and I'm also a politician activist intellectual politics. I ran for office in 2017 for city council and actually I got arrested protesting for housing which would be like my civil disobedience, my holy crime. There was this really nasty housing development happening at Crown Heights called the Bedford Union Armory Project and it was like a full citywide block that had been an armory like a place we store like arms and weapons and stuff but was like empty and the city was like what are we going to do with it? And this developer called BFC partners came in wanting to convert it into luxury condos and like really expensive fancy apartments with like a few like a nice gymnasium for the community and like you know some fancy a few like nonprofits have come in there but people were up in arms because of the condos. This was a neighborhood in like the middle of Crown Heights where people are getting evicted left and right because the rents are just going skyrocket gentrification it's like the crest of it is right in that neighborhood and so we were protesting we were protesting the city project and I actually got detained once then arrested later so I got detained at this at this one meeting where there's like five stages in like you know rezoning a lot and there was one at the CPC the city planning commission so we were protesting just shouting to the vote no me and my friend got pulled away detained to the side by the cops handcuffed questions but not actually brought to jail and then about a week later we were protesting and we were just blocking the street and we got we got hauled and we got hauled in the van and what one of the funniest and most interesting takeaways for me from that time was that while we were you know in the holding cells a lot of the cops in the jail were asking us what so what were you protesting exactly like why why were you in the streets and we were telling them about the army project and they were like yeah man it's like housing is all about money like yeah that's really sucks and then on the way out they were told us what we hope you win like after they were like well we hope you win that really sounds like a terrible deal yeah we stopped there I'm Savitri and thank you for inviting here today thank you all for coming I direct Reverend Billy to stop shopping choir which is a radical performance community here in New York City of about 50 people we've been working maybe 20 years I guess in New York on a wide range of issues we began resisting consumerism in the broadest sense there at the tail end of the anti-globalization movement that swiftly turns into like an anti-gentrification movement protecting neighborhoods small shops and then of course 2001 September 11th totally changes the game for activists in New York City militarized police very changed street life and then of course the continuation of that gentrification and that kind of what Naomi Klein calls disaster capitalism right here in our city which we are living still in the midst of as the gentrification radiates away from Manhattan into places like East New York Crown Heights so our work for about 10 years was really just holding the street it was really about just being theatrical on the street being the last people who could be out there I would say around 2004 we were just getting our asses kicked by the police pretty often some of you might remember the last big anti-war movement protest in 2003 resisting the Iraqi war when there's you know maybe six million people protesting around the world and it was just called a focus group and to me that was sort of the death knell of protest as we knew it and you saw people holding it down for a long time Occupy Wall Street comes along into the sort of rift of the 2008-2009 recession there's a little breathing space activists could work again and Occupy you know someone say sort of balkanized the protest movement some would say it atomized the protest movement I think there's good and bad there but it definitely blew it up it blew it apart and I think finally in a very positive way it made a lot of space in the few years following when Black Lives Matter emerges standing rock this incredible change in the culture making space for leadership long long overdue leadership in invisible ways for people of color for movements of color for indigenous women leading out to what I see right now is just incredible moment in protest when indigenous women women of color immigrant led movements are happening emerging we don't always see these stories we don't know what they are but they are happening and I feel I feel lucky to live at a time when that is really happening I hope we can keep the fan beating that fire so it burns brighter and brighter but yeah I also came from the arts and I don't the intersection of arts and activism is a dangerous one sometimes precarious for both sides but I'm happy we can talk about it today hi I'm Kat I'm a freelance theater maker theater maker performance maker culture shaker story shaper kind of thing I often work as a dramaturg in and with community performer director etc what are some of the things that we could talk about today I think the idea of infiltration the artistic impulse to respond to moments of crises direct direct action whether or not an artistic impulse can fit within that and yeah I'm just going to keep it short simple and cute and I'm new to New York I'm from New Orleans originally my dad is from Nicaragua my mom is a Cajun lady from Southwest Louisiana and I've kind of been all over the place in terms of my training and working and etc but I moved to New York in well I just made my one year anniversary actually yeah living in Queens off like Eddie Murphy and coming to America yeah thank you I I think that what you're talking about already in terms of the artistic impulse within activism and that precarious border you said or that precarious thing of like how do we move between these two like let's go right into that like how do you think about activism art and how do you think about the artistic impulse here and and and there and what feeds the other what stops the other you talk more about that so I guess I should say primarily I work with and alongside undocumented people migrants recently asylum seekers and just as a way of example of just diving into the deep end of course I would like to think we all know what's happening at our border not just our border but many borders the militarization of the border etc etc which you know lives in a long long history and I was part of an email chain or actually was part of that chain and then it independently was forwarded to me somebody wanting to respond you know to to to make a piece right at the tension center and trying to get people together to respond to this crisis and you know and I think what's what's so precarious about this wanting to respond having an impulse to respond having having a desire to do something is that it places the fulfillment of that need right in in oneself and so often the most impactful thing is the smallest thing I think so often people are rattled out of their own experience right it's when we we are confronted with something that makes us realize what we are living within that is invisible to us the amount of privileges that we have that's when we feel like we need to do something we need to do something and so often I think folks become incurious about the experiences of others and are really leading from what they see from their own experience is the need where if you ask somebody within you know that experience that you're wanting right desiring to serve to uplift it's so often it's like the smallest smallest thing volunteering you know donating clothes child care yeah and so like making the noise right is I think very often self-serving and we like to think that we're making an impact that we might be making an impact in our our community right and of course you know these folks are a part of our community but so often the impact stays closer to our hands that's what I'll say about that like I just riff off of that because like I just think that's like so important to talk about the the work of this like becoming like on us and I know that like you know as an artist like you want to make something that's very cathartic for your audience right you want them to go through an experience but then you always when the risk of like you know if it's if it's so cathartic they just like at the end they're like okay I went through that and don't continue to ask questions it is important that we do like wow people up and like you know like make them feel activated in a way did you want to talk about the that artistic and builds and activism and how you approach that yeah I mean I think the question is who's the art for I mean it's a pretty basic question that any artist is always asking themselves and then when you introduce a sort of justice or social justice or any kind of justice into it it changes it because I think you know I mean my mom used to always say that freedom freedom is when you can live your values right when your actions are integrated with your values that's when you know you're free right so as artists like I think sometimes we don't expand our values very far right we keep them inside of an aesthetic principles too long or we shelter them inside of our our industry our commerce our careers and yeah we forget this other piece of it which is who is it acting on and who is it really for you know I think in New York like the immigrant question is really interesting because a lot of times we're sending signals right we don't know who's receiving the signals in New York so when we make creative work around migration and immigration in New York there's this interesting thing which is that you know as many as a million undocumented people might encounter it and you're sending a signal that you care about that even if they're not the direct recipient of your work right so I mean there's interesting layers in your audience in a place like New York I think the difficult thing is that you have to figure out how to make things work on multiple so many levels right it has to work for your artistic life and that has to work sort of in a credible sense for a journalist or it has to work inside the rubric of like you know legitimate social justice movement building and organizing I mean it's it's a lot to ask really I mean I think our work though can always be not though but our work should always be you know engaging and reflective and pushing the conversation whatever community it's in for what have you I think so often there is I know I'm talking kind of in like vague booking they vague book live but I think often there's like oh well we have to make a piece about X you know or it has to be you know about why and there's this is the way that like my hair I'm pulling my own hair out with my ring sorry who doesn't love a hood a good hot mess but so often right this is this is how like you know stories get essentialized so that a story about immigration has to become about you know family separation and you know look at these it becomes trauma-poor and or you know a gay story has to become about like coming out you know whatever and it's totally essentializing and totally dehumanizing actually and I think that no matter no matter no matter no matter no matter what the content the form that the creators you know whoever they are whatever it is that there is an all there was always an opportunity to be really sharp and rigorous in our thought and so often the art that is about X or Y is actually like it's signaling that it's that it's deeply engaged but it's so often the most surface level I would say and that's why I think it's so incredibly important if we're gonna have this conversation about activism in the arts and civil disobedience etc that really I think the most important thing that any artist any you know person who wants to engage in a meaningful way in this in these kinds of you know topics is to be a participant which is why I started by you know like the little things like yes health care and child care and you know volunteering but that that for me that is what influences my art making that's not to say that every single piece that I do is about you know you know X topic of being undocumented but through my work alongside people you know I my my my critical acumen gets sharpened sharpened and it's about also being in a place of you know distrusting oneself too right because you know all of us have our blind spots and this kind of work is what's going to make them visible to us I'm really glad that you brought up trauma porn and I find it really interesting because when we look up what you've done we see you on the streets we see you actually on the streets and in your bio you actually have like here's how you give money to this family that's seeking asylum here's how you actually do it and that your art you're also in conversation about you don't just tell their story in a very literal way in order to get things farther right so I'm really interested in how the three of you actually think about putting together seeing the wound and how you move towards that and all in the actions of running for office and the actions of that and I mean I think you've already started to talk to us about Savitri about how you're thinking about who is it for and how that works but I'd love for you to for three of you to go even farther into from the identification that something is wrong how then you move forward into making something happen and and making something change I um I did I did a lot of political theater even like outside of undergrad I had this group we have this group called political subversities that was it was like a sketch a musical sketch comedy group focused on politics you could think of it as like the Daily Show of the Daily Show had like songs in it and songs dance dance it was really fun and in a in grad school I really wanted to make something with like actionable items at the end so similar like you know the cat posted the link to how you can help the family did this collaborative piece called derivatives about income inequality and actually Dave was in it out with it but it was about income inequality both like at a national level but also like in New Haven like New Haven is just so stratified like you know there's like the ill bubble and then you can literally walk a block and then all of a sudden it's like urban blight so we had like a picture of all these interviews from people with varying socioeconomic backgrounds and it was a big mishmash and it was a lovely project and at the end what we did was we collected emails from people to sign them up for this website called Kiva which allows people to like send micro loans like small loans like in like $25 increments to small business owners all around the world so like $25 may not mean so much for somebody trying to start like a restaurant on the upper east side but you know for a small farmer in the Philippines that wants to buy like the seed for further that season like that's a big deal to them and so we sign up a ton of people to like to donate that and start that cycle going yeah I'll just pause there. I think in in the United States we have to reckon with two streams of kind of karma right the Puritanism and the white supremacy right and that every wound that become visible to us those things are playing out in them the Puritanism causes us to you know seek out hypocrisy be perfect we have to be perfect in order to say anything about climate change I can never take an airplane you know this kind of Puritanism which really impacts activism like on a everyday basis right and then of course white supremacy which is you know the minute by minute analysis self-analysis community analysis structural analysis that we carry with us in this country it's our it's our failure and it's our promise right we can do this or we can't do this we're always grappling with that so you know when you say the wound you know I mean I honestly just I feel like we've been failing for so long and we will fail for so much longer that I don't know how to address the question because the wound is like pulsing with blood you know and many of us I think working in activism are like you know just just trying to stop the bleeding you know what I mean never mind like describe it or or mitigate the pain or you know just please no more blood you know what I mean so you know I you know I become speechless very quickly when we're talking about that of course there's just a couple little things I think that matter right away which is to ask the questions like what are you working on how can I help you you know and that if we start with that position we start with those questions that there's a better chance that will you know staunch the bleeding a little bit well so you mentioned the the family the fundraiser thingy in my bio so I'll all kind of anecdote to how I got there which I hope has some like practical applications so I also went to Yale School of Trauma in New Haven Connecticut and before before I got to campus I always do like where's my hint they where's the people at so before I was even in New Haven I did like a quick Google search learned about when he thought that the interaction I totally agree Yale is a bubble I think that's very intentional not not only on the part of the institution but you know people kind of click into a survival mode and say oh no no I have to do this you know I just have to like put my head down and borrow you know forward in order to get through and then when I get through you know then I can help you know then I can do more then I can kind of like take my life back etc and I think that's to the chat I don't believe in that that's probably a conversation for for maybe today but but anyway I got involved with Unidad Latina Action community meetings migrant-led organization that struggles for migrant rights and workers rights because workers rights are migrants rights and workers rights yay so I just you know I started going to meetings every Monday when I when I when I could because I too am not you know perfect and sometimes I totally clicked into survival mode and I felt really shitty about it but nevertheless like you know when I could I did go and it was through that that I learned of a family in New Haven that both of the parents were going to be deported at the same time leaving an older brother who was just a legal adult to take care of his minor brother and so through Unidad Latina Action and through organizers in New Haven there was a an act of civil disobedience in front of ICE headquarters in Hartford where we sat in front of the doors 36 of us comprised a Yale student you know students within the area professors religious leaders just concerned community members we got arrested spent time in jail and then when we were released we were released into the news that the family was going to be stayed together there was a stay of deportation which means that that order of deportation was was blocked and the case was going to be reopened and therefore be considered and so that was that was amazing and a proof of the fact that direct action works so I don't want to hear about how we don't know what to do because that shit works it was also through Unidad Latina Action that after I after I graduated and was kind of figuring out what I wanted to do a community member posted about this group called New Sanctuary Coalition based here in NYC that was starting to get together a sanctuary caravan to go down to the border a show of people in solidarity to support the migrant community the caravan that was about a year ago so I started to get involved in that I went to the border spent two weeks which is I mean time and also like minuscule working like directly with people and it was through that that I met a family and I did not do what we had been told to do which was not give out your personal information I gave out my personal information like it was tic-tac when I was on RuPaul's Drag Race and we stayed in I mean I met I met this family on December 29th and they crossed the border the next day and I'm telling you it was I've never bonded with human beings that profoundly and that quickly and you know when I left T1 I'm very clear that I left a really like intense ever changing by the minute situation and also I did not fully leave it because my phone was blowing up with people asking for help etc and so when I got the call from someone in detention asking if I could sponsor them I said yes I felt like I had to follow through and I've maintained contact with this family I mean very more than contact very close relationship with this family and so while I've you know kind of not remained a fully active participant and new sanctuary coalition and I'm so out of the loop you know anyone who's not there they're there like boots on the ground is like out of the loop you know again this one to one relationship it's like what is the smallest most hyper local thing that I can do which is be in close relationship to these you know three human beings so yes when the opportunity to came to come here and talk came up and I was asked for my bio my bio you know me personally my bio is not my bio my bio is a platform for these you know people and it's so again I know I just like monologue but it's how each of these really close like really small steps you know meeting people and getting to know people and getting to know their needs not what I thought their needs were but what they told me their needs were and then following through on that and keeping close contact and instead of going big you know actually getting really small and really specific thank you I mean we always think about artists as expressors and like thank you for reframing that into like how deeply can we listen and I feel like that's so much apart I mean you're about to you you're just confirmed as being a Brooklyn Democratic Socialist of America so for the for the upcoming election will you talk about that in terms of what you're what you think about how you think about listening for change that's a great question because it's it's so yes I am I'm running for office again I'm running for state Senate in Brooklyn and when I was running last time for city council it's it's funny people would say wow how did you you seem so charismatic when you're talking to people and like how did you how did you do that and I was like well that's just I mean it's listening it's it's it's it's acting training acting is listening that's how it is it transfers over and like you know the hundreds and thousands of doors I'm not going to talk to people and just like here are their problems really I don't know it really it changed me but it also like I mean I guess it's something that you know many politicians don't do there's this notion of listening that I guess that's as artists like we're just more in tune with doing and it actually will be up to like a sense of like really systemic problems too and I know like just even thinking about housing like one thing that would come up over and over and over again with people like talking about their issues with their landlord or their rents and like always the story seemed like when it was coming from them that they seemed like it was their own personal struggle and they were just their own little silo and a part of my campaign last time and that'll be this campaign this time is waking people up and letting people know that it's not just them even though it may feel like it's just them versus the landlord like no it's these are systemic things and you know have you checked and have you seen that you know a lot of other people in your in your building are also suffering from this or a lot of other people in the buildings owned by this this massive landlord company are suffering from this like you're not alone and like that's um that's something that we do I can do so be to his politicians be to his artists to bring people together and like I think the you know the person that said their when I was we earlier it's I mean that's that's part of it I mean like you know when we're in like collective struggle together that's that's what we need to overcome um justification racism sexism like these huge like institutional systems of oppression um we cannot fight them alone and if we are going to work together yes we need to be listening to each other and it's um very important even just think knowing as a politician one thing that I also um um learned from my last run was um the importance of like not getting set on an agenda of what I wanted to say that's close to what Kat was saying about like really like hearing not what I wanted what I thought they needed but like what I what they just need at the moment because I remember this this one exchange really changed my Chris my perception with this woman in a launch map we were just talking I was talking about the campaign and like talking to her about her um experiences he was talking about her fear of getting um evicted and I like and I tried to tide into like a macro thing of like you know um like talking about you know and telling her like you know there's this is massive like real estate lobby and landlord lobby that donates so much money to upstate politicians to get laws passed that are um in favor of landlords and building owners and people owns you know millions or billions of property and and and go against laws that are for working people and for tenants and she like um everything just went through one ear and out the other for her because she like heard me speak and then just said so I still think I might be getting evicted and that was very I mean that was very eye-opening for me because I'm sure very immediate need that needed to be addressed so I don't know I think that just moving forward like you know there is like a lot of a lot of listening that needs to be getting done as we're gonna be in like deeper conversation with each other um yeah and and you listen and and then sing like what a beautiful transference you know and you gather I love what you say about gathering people to do that and that action in the streets can you talk more about that sure I mean it's sometimes I think that like we've been talking and and we could have this conversation quite independent of talking about the arts or creativity right we can have the conversation and never address where it meets our creative practice and it would be just as compelling and interesting a conversation I think personally it's very very difficult to talk about both at once and to do both at once you know obviously they impact each other and those those rivers and currents come back and forth because that's life right but you know this idea this sort of invented idea of the artivist or the you know art as a social practice I mean for me I feel it's a little bit yeah it's a little projected it's a little bit bullshit it's a little bit like really are you sure because I think what we're doing is just plain old like good works right like is it creative is it artistic I mean sometimes it is okay so singing yeah I mean we have a community of singers and we sing and I've come to realize that we sing because we have to we sing because it's the thing that keeps us being activists for 20 years it allows us to it makes it sustainable because it's a pleasure is it super creative is it I don't know anymore you know I'm not so sure I know there are times when our work is on a kind of like a vanguard of sort of invention like going down to the pit at ground zero and and singing the first amendment with you know oozees all around us you know singing as you're being arrested like staging actions in giant institutions and and casting police in your show and then have watching them do exactly what you said they would do you know those things yes it's very creative and it does feel like an artistic practice but in the end like when I look at the life of being an activist the the artist part it's like I'm an artist I'm creative it's what I like to do I make things given the chance I will make things but finally the activism is about caring you know and I I don't know I feel like the projection of the two together is becoming really problematic it's becoming a career it's becoming an industry it's and I like New Orleans is a great example after Katrina and why it's problematic you know after Katrina philanthropists from around the world said like oh here's a perfect laboratory for us to do all this work let's send all this money down to all this creative amazing social practice in New Orleans and what it seems like it led to was a lot of not listening a lot of kind of like spaceships landing with this sort of artistic idea of how to address the problem of New Orleans and the problem of climate change and the problem of this and that and and the justice kind of bled out of it and it was someone's job all of a sudden you know and I so I think you know I think we have to be careful about how we personally engage with it and say like what we call it you know like if I go after Hurricane Sandy and I like deliver food is that activism or is that service is that a is that an art project I don't think so that's like an old person who needs food do I need that to be an art project I mean I don't know you know but but so I think we have to be really hard on ourselves you know as artists to say like maybe it's okay if it's not that's not an art project that's just delivering food to someone who can't go up and down the damn stairs so I want to be careful about but then I want to say like it is incredible to go with the group of allies and like an affinity group on the street and sing music that you've worked on and sing songs that you've developed over years that came from like real experiences with you know Ravi from New Sanctuary Coalition we met him the day he came out of detention in 2009 and we sang to him on the street and I have to tell you for all of us it was like the sky opening and you don't ever turn your back on that relationship you make when you walked that family across the border you know you that's real in your life right your legs are built of that now right and and your work will reflect that no matter what if you address it explicitly or not but the singing it adds up it's good I mean we should all sing you should everyone here should sing it makes you feel better you know yeah I didn't I didn't go to do on a as an artist you know per se I went as myself you know a community member who recognized that you know these folks by wanting to be a part of the community are already a part of the community and I think that when we when we get hung up on and we let you know the art whatever lead that impulse lead that's when it becomes a kind of excursion right that's when it becomes you know a kind of like tour of you know this place and this problem and these people and this problem in my common denominator ability you know rather than really listening and hearing and and it's like in the time I know I keep saying this but it's so you know so true it's in the like tiny you know minutiae you know bullshit like every day every day needs you know resistance isn't always like the thing that's going to make the front page the thing that like you know brings glory right resistance and disruption often look like you know not meeting quota you know you know being intentionally like taking your time you know healing yourself I mean and again like for whatever however you are in relationship to the issue at hand is going to really shape I think the limits of one's ability to you know lead I think that people that are most and this is not an original thought but folks I subscribe to the idea that folks who are closest to the issue should be the ones to lead and we should be the ones listening and you know if we can be like on the you know taking some of that that the same taking some of the blows let's do that if we can be the ones that are you know raising money donating money if we have a space that we can offer you know etc but it's about really listening to the immediate need and in order to hear that immediate need you have to be in community there's there's no other way than to get to know the people around you so that it doesn't become an issue so that it doesn't become you know the topic of a conversation at you know at a university that is disengaged it's so easy to do and I can say like I'm I'm documented my dad is not a citizen he's a resident and so much of what I know isn't is is from becoming close friends and co-conspirators with people who are you know centred centered in the thing that we're trying to undo absolutely if not art becomes an imperialist columnist act you know like so quickly and so easily I want to make sure that folks have time to ask questions if they would like of a folks up here anybody yeah oh here let me give you that so you can capture the recording for people who are watching very interesting I appreciate where you're coming from I'm a documentary filmmaker I filmed Reverend Billy and Savitri and the stop shopping acquires since the early 2000s among others and one of the things you mentioned about 9-11 being a changing factor I was sitting on my terrace on the 20th floor watching the tower one tower and then the next hour and I'm thinking to myself I was involved with the New York City school system helping develop their project art system and I said well we're going to have thousands of kids who are going to be suffering from PTSD parents and then all of a sudden I realize how do you make sense out of things that don't make sense and I said well art makes sense out of things that don't make sense then I thought to myself well what is damaged you know in and I thought well maybe it's the imagination that's damaged and maybe the value of art is caring for our imagination both as individuals and as a collective society and about the power of one person to make a difference and we can all make that difference and you are making that difference how do we encourage others to do that as individuals any thoughts I mean I I'm a big fan of just literally just tell people well one after after I ran for office first house like everyone should do this everyone should run for office which I still I mean that's it's an experience that I everywhere in some form that everyone should take the should take on the experience of running for something some kind of position I don't need doesn't have to be like a elected you know in in government but you know you're a school board if you know you live in a place with school boards or if you're in a union a place within your union on so on and so forth but if not that I mean I'm also big fan of just telling people just to get involved in campaigns and like not necessarily an electoral campaign it doesn't need to be for a person but there's always like you know a ton of like issue-based campaigns that are going on at any time like whether it's an issue for housing justice or or health care justice or racial justice or just there's something so activating about working on a campaign like the timetables that you have to work on learning how to just like talk to people about their issues and like you know act you know activate them into like you know fighting for something and it's something that's really enriching to be to be fighting like for something fighting for something specific and and knowing there's a very clear goal and like oh my gosh okay so if we can all get together we can make this many phone calls and collect and and convince as many politicians it's it's something that I think is really exciting for people and just and it really changes your it makes you feel very empowered I think and also I think it's just it ends up being like a snowball effect like once you do more you just want to do even more and more and more and more and more so I know my two things I'll say something I'm not gonna be somebody who rails against this because I think this is an amazing tool I know that they're so you know there's a there's absolutely a critique you know people are so you know glued to their phones and you know the kind of showing up becomes virtual and it's you know like you know hacktivism or whatever I think this is an incredible tool you know when it's about connecting and getting the invitation out there and I think showing up is the most important part so when you have you know if you are starting to get involved how do you get someone to go to like a dinner you want to go to or try a new restaurant or like go to an event that you're going to you you have a relationship with them and you invite them and you let it be known why you want to go and why you think you know it would be cool if they went to and it's about the one-to-one personal intimate relationship it's hard you know to just kind of put something out there I mean even even if generally broadly you know I'm posting something online I mean people are gonna look at they have a relationship to me I have a relationship to them and so you know I think putting putting the invitation out there however that form you know whether it's a text or tweet whatever is important and following through is also you know something that we should all do so it's not just words but and again it's not the thing that's always going to be visible it's going to be the invisible thing but like somebody sees you doing it you know like even if it's not broadcast somebody you know in your close circle or whatever sees you doing it you get them involved and then the more that they become involved to the more that you learn the more that you learn how to like again follow through show up bring more people into the circle and I think also we all have to look in our own lives where we can do it right like some of us are in institutions where we can't make those we can't cross those borders in those institutions or at our job in particular ways or you know say it in your in your personal relationship right like you know you can't necessarily defend your pussy in a particular way in your relationship or I'm just I mean I'm saying that all of us have like a border that we can cross somewhere right and it's about looking for it and being willing to like do it and I think that sounds so simple it's just like just go do that but actually it's not simple at all because we don't realize how prescribed our behavior is now we don't realize how conformist would become we don't realize the way the monoculture has come down into every cell in our body and that we're all behaving in very narrow ways right and that if in my relationship I decide to act out or to defend myself or if in my institution I decide to stand up and you know defend my whole cohort or you know any number of things but but I think the key now is to choose one and do it instead of like and so I think we can encourage our friends and our communities and like have that radiant sphere come from ourselves right like it glows outward and we can do that but I think it's just as much like you know I'm also at this place where I think you know what I am not here to convince any of you to be more activist like if the conditions that you are in have not convinced you I don't know what the fuck will honestly and I mean that in like the best way but like am I gonna do that am I that powerful you know are we gonna do that it's not up to us it's up to everyone and so I think we have to be harder on each other to like invite each other but be much harder on each other and make that demand of each other and not like oh you're really I mean yeah it's tough right now to get people to cross that line but it's happening yeah I see that illness of America as being couch and apathy and comfort and that it's so easy to be there and so most of my work happens in China and one of my dear friends Janie you know he did not sign the humans rights declaration that put the usual ball in jail and that when he won the Nobel Peace Prize for it he was not able to attend because he was still in jail and his wife Lu Xia was how in house arrest for how many years every single person who signed that and their families were jailed or in house arrests or their careers completely dissipated he did not sign into this day he wonders if he should but he also knows that he's able to have a child and he's able to do all the work he's able to do because he did not sign and that kind like when I'm talking to him that kind of urgency that kind of understanding of what things cost and that deep connection to all of that is I feel a place where in the American dream we have lost you know all kinds of stuff and I find myself in the last year or two working with extension rebellion and other climate change groups including Fridays for future last week helping as I can do it what I can in there and I'm feeling two really strong things one is that my community artists of the left political people I find enormous timidity I find kind of business as usual even among those that I love we are we what we're facing is the end of life on earth I don't have to say that to anybody and the part of it is that the poorest and the blackest that people will suffer but everyone's going to suffer everyone including this all species and there's just no sense that that's what we're at you know the four million kids and their supporters fantastic I don't hear talked about in groups like this I don't hear us understanding that they don't have an agenda they don't you know they don't know what they're doing they're just walking out I talked with them they're smart but I don't feel the connection between that impulse on one hand which is inspiring a great the catastrophe that we're in the midst of and my fellow intellectual artists political people I don't feel connection at all it's like there's no you know I go out on the street I play trumpet I do that and I go out I play cops and I do my thing I've done that for 50 years and it feels good I love it yeah feels good is that enough we need something else to to bring out we've got to shut it down obviously there's going to have to be four million people who go out and say we're not going home the Pentagon is not going to work you know Parliament is not going away that's we all know politically unless we shut it down it will shut down and I think as artists and intellectuals I'm struggling to try to figure out as one of us I'm trying to figure out what to do and I I'm into the living theater ready to pop it I we all we all did all that let me just interrupt you to say one thing which is remember that you know nothing remember that none of us really know anything all we have is our very narrow historical view that always favored a few people anyway and is totally suspect so remember that and know that change is dynamic and that things happen in dynamic ways that you whoever you are and whatever life you had can't possibly imagine or know the dynamic change that may or may not come yeah but if we can't figure it out we're in deep trouble you've never been able to figure it out before you know human war civil rights exceeded women got the right to fold India became an independent country there are victories where is this what is this strategy I don't hear shit about that from us I am from me I think excuse me this is not it I love I know I love that I love that comment I love that frustration because I sympathize with this notion of like you know you go out and you do something in the street a performance pace and that's not enough and then I understand the frustration because it seems like four million people marched in the net that also wasn't enough and I am and if we were to talk about it would that be enough and so what is it gonna take I I remember speaking to another group of artists a couple years ago when I was running and I just said like one of the most beautiful things I love artists that were such passionate people and I'm so like fueled up with like fire that like we just I just find as we shine so brightly that we ignite the people around us and I think it's almost like our you know the duty of artists to just you know wake people up around them I just want to say something like we none of us know right like we don't know but if you wake enough people up like I think we can make some kind of lasting change and maybe it's the it maybe it's the duty if it may be a four million people isn't enough then maybe eight million people is right and if that's not even maybe 20 million people is but maybe the step is that we don't stop until we we can't find anyone else around us in our local circle that we need to get involved and yeah I would say I mean you have a plan it's burning so I mean I can speak I haven't done enough I don't know if anybody's done enough yet these things are still really going terribly and it is very it's very frustrating and it's very it's very scary and especially for people that are going to be here for the next or alive for the next 50 60 70 years in whatever case world it's going to be and I just I really appreciate that frustration because that's what we need and we do need to we need to continue to affirm that like until like we start reducing carbon levels in the atmosphere everything is not enough everything we do everything we've done so far is not enough because it's it's still the climate crisis is still getting worse I think this is a good example of like the micro versus the macro and you know these struggles are always you know concurrent happening at the same time progress is not neat there are in fact people who are are struggling and figuring it out you know I think the students who are at the forefront the young people who are at the forefront of the climate struggle right now are as you said incredibly smart and they're not just walking out they have you know a message you know I think if there is frustration if anyone's feeling frustration about and not just you but folks listening of like what to do like no you know nothing's happening whatever okay maybe maybe my calling then is not to be one of those people who's figuring it out maybe my calling is to feed people in my community again hyper local because some people's existence is their resistance right and maybe my work is to facilitate you know to make things a little bit easier for them and be in community so I don't think you know as the same time that it's incredibly important yes to be having you know the conversations and doing the things that are at the global level are because our liberate again not an original thought but our collaboration is collective and bound up in each others and we also have to trust that people who are you know really at the center are holding it down and are pushing us forward and sometimes our job is to get behind them to fall back and not to become I'm not saying to become packed passive or to get paralyzed by you know our frustration or our feeling sometimes falling back again is listening is being deep in community you know and really really really just doing like the minute bullshit that seems like it doesn't make a difference but does because you know from the folks that I've talked to that we're in detention the things that were most meaningful were letters it's what you said it's what you said at the very beginning of this I'm Sonata I'm the coach with high it's what you said at the very beginning which is you know making it we have to do something about this makes it about us rather than really looking to what needs to be supported and I think those what Greta Thunberg and like all of those kids are doing needs support and we can continue to support them in the ways that you said with Friday Friday Futures or I forgot the name of Fridays for future but that that just continuing to believe that there is a continuum and that it's a constant moving forward and this like sense of patience that I think I see in the way that you guys all are talking about the work you're doing and the way that you have patience for each other and for us I think that's a huge part of it and it's really inspiring to hear that the small things and the D local like the localized things and decentralized things actually do make a difference even if we can't see it in this tiny moment that it's such a longer experience than what we can imagine yeah sorry I'd piggyback on that that was great yeah I just want to plug a campaign real quick just as I love I love plugging campaigns but if you are in New York if you're watching and you live in New York on a plug the public power campaign which is just a campaign to build an energy system that's run by the public by the people as opposed to by a business or a corporation and like yes I'm in the Democratic Socialist of America I am a socialist but you don't you don't need to be a socialist the part of the campaign you just need to agree that perhaps we can move further we can move much more quickly to a system that isn't based on fossil fuels if we if if energy is run by people who don't have a financial interest and in maintaining fossil fuels if it truly is energy for the people and not you know influenced by you know whatever is whatever can make the most money at that time yeah and I think it's there are things today that anyone here can do like new sanctuary coalition you can go join their accompaniment program their prosa clinic they need people all the time especially Spanish Spanish speakers and if you want to go try and stop a frack gas power plant in three weeks time that's gonna come online in about a month's time please talk to me we'll probably have many hundreds of people trying to stop that I mean there are so many things one can do right right now today I can I so if you want to get involved there there are various ways I mean these are these are some that I happen to have some level of relationship to the asylum seekers sponsorship sponsorship project if you Google asylum seekers sponsorship project you will get a hit for asylum speakers seekers sponsorship project org it's a it's a it's a project that comes out of surge showing up for racial justice and if you have a space if you want to find out how you can become a sponsor for somebody if you have a space to offer a migrant this is a way to do that that is I would say a kind of high level of commitment another way to commit is you can donate your unused airline miles to miles for migrants that's miles the number for migrants super simple doesn't cost you literally anything you can send letters to people in detention via flowers on the inside flowers on the inside and then you can donate funds to the following organizations a lot roll out which is a group that is based in Tijuana and San Diego amazing lawyers amazing on the ground work on local specific to New York make the road which has its headquarters in New York and also chapters in other parts of the country Central American legal assistance based in New York really small you know operation really big impact Catholic Charities does incredible work with an immigration help desk that is traveling clothing donation free lawyer services there's also the transgender law centers black LGBTQIA plus migrant project so often black folks and LGBTQIA plus community is you know de-centered forgotten and the impact here is huge and kids in need of defense kind which is an organization that offers pro bono legal services to minor migrants those are again just some of the ways to get involved some of them ask for your space some of them ask for your funds some of them ask for your time and some of them just ask for you to give a flying fuck in her Nobel pre-nomal prize acceptance speech vis-a-vis Zaborska who's a Polish poet and Holocaust survivor talks about how people think that artists have amnopoly on inspiration and she dismantles that she says everyone has access to inspiration a lawyer a doctor a janitor as long as they do what they do with attention and love and how beautiful that we can be inspired by all of those organizations and people that you mentioned even when we do know nothing that we can be inspired by all of those incredible people in order to take action in some way thank you so much yes and thank you guys and thank you all for coming feel free to continue the conversation outside it's not as you can say a brief thing about the next event before we wrap so at seven o'clock tonight we're doing a there's this new initiative we don't really know quite what it is yet but it's called public parks project and this is the first assembly and it's it's an attempt to find a way to create discourse amongst people to be really general because I don't have my speech with me right now but to find ways of getting citizens together in the all 140 parks in the New York City community sometime in the spring but we don't really know what we're doing and so we are having this first assembly tonight at seven o'clock here there are refreshments and snacks provided so please join us as we figure out we were really just it's really just a time for us to ask questions because we don't have any answers and it would be wonderful to see you there so thank you so