 OK, I think we've got enough in now to get going. It seems like it's stabilizing a bit. So thank you so much, Alex, for coming to talk to us today. It's so rare, I think, to approach a Monday evening in November with any sort of feeling of enthusiasm. But in the aftermath of the great political weekend that we've had, it just feels with such renewed hope, particularly exciting and apt, I think, to have you here talking to us tonight. So Alexandra is a barrister at the criminal and family law bar. She is passionate about equality and diversity within the profession and is a vocal campaigner for better treatment within the law and beyond. And somehow, alongside her day job, I don't know how she does it, but I hope she's going to tell us how. She was also the author of this groundbreaking book in Black and White, a young barrister's story of race and class in the both injustice system, the founder of Black Women in Law and co-founder of One Case at a Time. So, Alex, thanks very much. And let's hear from you. Thank you so much, Kersti. And thanks to the University of Cambridge for having me. And I just really wanted to start by doing a brief introduction to why I'm here today, I guess, why my profile has kind of picked up and why I wrote the book. And I guess my whole journey really began when I was, well, before I joined university, it was when I was about 17, I went to Oxford, sorry, everyone. I just thought, we'll get it, we'll get it out there just to start with, there's no confusion. There's no animosity as we go on, you know. We love each other, it's fine. But yeah, I went to the rival one, I went to Oxford and it was around the time that I was applying to Oxford. I lost a really close family friend. He was killed. And it went up, obviously, studying for my A-levels. And it was really difficult. I talk about it in my book in a much more in-depth way but it was something really difficult for me to process at that age. He was killed, in my view, on the basis of the color, because of the color of his skin. So it was a mistaken identity case. And he was in an area that he was not familiar with. There had been a killing earlier that day. And some boys went out and sought to get revenge for their friend's death, for their friend's murder. Saw a young black boy in an area, weren't familiar, I didn't know him. And he was killed as a result of that. You know, his life was literally taken in a matter of minutes just because he was an unfamiliar black face in an area he didn't know. And that was something that kind of stuck with me. And, you know, it still does today. And when I went on to university, I remember still thinking like, that was the first time that race really became so important to me. And, you know, I know we've now kind of left Black History Month, but actually it's so important to continue these discussions about race long beyond Black History Month. And that was, for me, when I guess I realised how important your skin colour is, you know, it's not just something that is part of your identity. Actually it can be a matter of life and death. You know, would my friend have been killed if he was a white boy in the same area that time? I don't think so. And, you know, he was killed by other black boys. At university, I remember feeling slightly frustrated, and I'm sure this is not the case at Cambridge, but I remember feeling at university very frustrated that race didn't seem to feature in my degree. And I did politics, philosophy and economics, the degree that you would expect race to be in. Because, of course, race is very important, all of those, you know, in philosophy, you'd think that black philosophers didn't exist looking at my curriculum. In economics, do you think black economists didn't exist? And unsurprisingly, you know, looking at politics again, and unless you're looking at the politics of Africa, it literally seemed like there were no, there was nothing to study about politics in relation to black people. That frustration meant that I think personally, I didn't really engage with my degree as well as I could have in the kind of first year. And, you know, there were definitely points, I don't really talk about this, but there were definitely points that I thought about leaving Oxford and going to a university that was, you know, maybe LSE, somewhere in London, where I'd be in a more mixed environment with other black people. In my college, I was the only black person in my year. And I remember thinking, this is just not for me. This is clearly not for me. And I had some brilliant, brilliant tutors who after our, so at Oxford, I think slightly different from Cambridge, we do all our exams in the third year. But we do do what's called prelims in our first year where it's essentially a mock just to, you know, make sure you're keeping on track. And I remember after my prelims thinking, okay, I've done the prelims now. Like, I know I'm good enough to at least pass, but I'm leaving, like, I'm off. I remember sending emails. And I remember actually my tutor sitting down with me after I'm saying, you know, it's so important for you to be here. You might not feel this now, but it is so important that you do stay and you finish this. And that, I mean, it could possibly change my life, to be honest. I don't think that's an exaggeration to say because I did stay and I did finish. In my third year, I think the reason I kind of brought university into it is in my third year, well, it's actually my, it was in my second year, but mostly in my third as well, I found a tutor who, his specialism was race and race in American politics. And he was at a graduate college. He wasn't in one of the undergrad colleges but he was running this series on race in American politics. And I saw it, you know, in tiny print at the bottom of like one of the politics newsletters. I was like, oh my goodness. Like someone cares about race. Someone sees it as academic. Someone actually thinks that, you know, this is not something that, you know, only black people are affected by. He was a white professor, very well established, head of politics. So he's graduate college, which was the best one for social sciences. And he cared about race. I was like, oh my God. I couldn't, I literally remember. I think I cried, to be honest. I was so like overwhelmed, sent him an email and just said, look, I know I'm an undergraduate student and then you don't teach me, but could I please just come and sit in your lectures? Could I just sit at the back of the classroom? And he said, you know, he welcomed me with open arms. He was like, don't sit at the back. Come and get involved, you know, come and join the classes. We'd love to have you. And that really did transform my entire Oxford experience. I went along to these classes. I felt like actually the academic interests I had were legitimate academic interests, not just, you know, these kind of, the way I'd felt before was that it was just something that affected me personally and no one really had an interest in academia. And I then, you know, then I got scholarships to go and do some research in America. I looked at how, and it's devastating to, you know, this summer kind of feels very full circle for me because the research that I did while I was there was on how police, police shootings and police brutality affect young people's attitudes to the police. Unsurprisingly, finding that young African American children were very reluctant to call the police, you know, even when they were in real danger. And I did that research, you know, back in 2015, five years ago, and you see in George Floyd being murdered this year, for me was absolutely devastating. You know, it was devastating obviously watching someone be murdered on pretty much every platform I looked on, but also that actually in five years, not much had changed. You know, five years ago, I was looking at this and I was trying to, you know, I remember one of my friends at Oxford saying to me, you know, your Facebook wall is really depressing. Like you keep sharing like these videos of like people being killed. And it's like, I'm trying to get a message out because people want, like people weren't aware. And that's really been highlighted this year because, you know, I think there's so many people that was pure shock that that happens. So that is all a whirlwind, you know, a whirlwind journey, stop, through my, through what kind of led me to after university joining the bar. You know, I finished university and I thought I'd done this research that I loved. I could think academia was something that I was definitely toying with, but I think I'd had enough of university on one hand. I think I was like, I've had enough of Oxford. You've been good to me. You've been bad to me, but I'm done for now. And I wanted to kind of get out into the real world. So I was like, what job can I find that really has this balance of, you know, the intellectual element, you know, that kind of academic side of it, but also I'm making a tangible difference. And I'm going to be able to address the issues that I feel very passionately about. And the criminal bar was where I headed. I picked up family law on the way, which has been brilliant because it pays a lot better, which I'm sure we'll cover at some point in this talk. But yeah, so that hopefully has given you all an idea. And actually isn't it replicated in my book? You guys have got a unique insight into the kind of university aspect of how I got here. And I'll stop talking for now and let some questions come my way. Thanks so much, Alex, for that insight. It was really great to hear about your experiences at university as well and what really made a difference for you. Any questions that anybody has from the attendees, just put them into the Q&A and we'll put them forward to Alex. We've got a few questions to do. So, Alex, one thing that I wanted to ask you about is about the book. So you've taken us on a really interesting journey, telling us about kind of how you got to the bar. And then the book itself is really kind of the trajectory of your pupillage year, really, with some of the broader context as to how you came to pupillage itself. And it really gives insights into the legal and practical issues that your clients face and also that you face very much in representing them. So I wanted to know how you came to writing the book itself, especially during the vulnerability of the pupillage year and what the response to that has been within the profession. I know it's hard for you to say that's an excellent question but it really is because it was a tough, it was actually really tough doing both at the same time. The book came about, I tweeted, and this isn't just a plug for you to all follow me on Twitter, but if you do want to, I tweet at Essex Barrister and my Pins tweet is the tweet that really landed me with a book deal. I tweeted in January, 2019, so almost two years ago. I photographed myself, I was up late one night. I think I had about 200 followers at the time. I saw not how many people were interested. But I tweeted basically with a brief description of myself saying, I'm mixed race, I'm 24, I would have been 24 at the time, I'm 24. I'm not posh, I'm from Essex, but this is what a Barrister looks like and tweeted on my little call to the bar photo. And I think the reason I tweeted it was because actually I felt that I came from a background where I wasn't well represented in my career. I had very much felt that at Oxford, at university, I very strongly felt that I didn't fit in. And then I was moving to another institution where I felt that actually again, I don't really fit in. And I was like, this time I'm gonna handle it differently. This time I'm going to take ownership of that and I'm going to try and change it. And so that's why I tweeted the photo and why I wrote the tweet. I did not expect a year later to have written a book to have written a book about it. But after that tweet, some literary agents reached out, I was writing a blog at the time called Essex to Oxford actually. It was actually one that I'd started after leaving Oxford to try and encourage students from what we now call like non-traditional backgrounds to apply to Oxford. And I think they'd seen some of my writing, they'd seen this tweet and a few literary agents said, how do you fancy writing a book about your experiences? I thought, well, I mean, it's only the busiest year of my life. Why not? And then me loving a challenge decided to do it. And as I said, the reason it's such a good question is because it was really tough and I would never try and paint it as otherwise. It did mean that there were a lot of late nights, sometimes no sleep at all, because obviously, the problem was is that with my job, your clients have to come first. So, you know, if I'm given a brief really late, that has to take priority over everything, even if I've got a book deadline the next day. And so if I have 10 hours and I've got to prepare for this case, do some book stuff and sleep. Sleep is gonna be the part of the triangle that gets dropped, you know? It's like it really was a hierarchy and sleep came last. So, you know, it's actually nice now that I do get a few hours sleep. It's probably why I'm so smiling. I've got a bit more energy in me, but yeah. So it was a tough year, but worth it, completely worth it. Thank you very much. Stevie, do you wanna ask some of the questions from the Q&A? Certainly. So, Smita asks, hello, Alex. Getting to the bar would have been a journey in itself. How did you go about managing pupillage and working around getting relevant work experience? So, okay, so the first part was managing work and relevant work experience. Okay. Well, for the bar, the best thing is mini pupillages. And I actually started getting those. I started doing those after university. I think there's a real pressure on people to think that you have to do a million mini pupillages while you're still at university. My advice personally would actually be don't focus on your degree because actually that's the long-term investment. It's really important that you do well in your degree. So my view is actually focus on that and then go on to doing your mini pupillages. You don't, I did so many in one year. Like you don't have to scatter them throughout your entire degree and use up your valuable degree title. Or fun time, let's be honest. Like have fun while you're doing a degree. Mini pupillages can come later. There's not a rush and that's coming from someone who has really has gone through the process quickly. There actually isn't any rush. I don't think I'm a big advantage having done it a year earlier than someone who's done it a year later. I actually think give yourself a break, you know? Like genuinely, I really do mean that. If you can have a bit of time, give yourself that time. Mini pupillages in general, I think the difficulty is they're not paid. That's for me still something that, you know, I'm actively working with my chambers and other chambers to try and change. I know there's a new scheme called bridging the bar, which actually I've got a talk after this and I'm doing it with them. And they're a charity who, so I really would recommend that everyone kind of looks into it, so bridging the bar is what they're called. But they're really, they've teamed up with loads of chambers to try and support people from non-traditional backgrounds, getting all lower socio-economic backgrounds. I say non-traditional, this word is so vague, so forgive me if I sort of stutter when I say it, but I mean, what does non-traditional really mean? It's just such a vague term, it's like a catchall. But yeah, I think the idea is to get people from a wider group of backgrounds to the bar. And so they're really good. And also all of the ends of courts do marshaling schemes, which is basically where you can go and shadow a judge, or they support mini pupillage schemes. So I would say that, you know, there is a lot of support out there. You don't have to rush to do it all during your degree. I did it, I did the GDL because I did PPE. And I squeezed a lot into one year, which shows that even if you do leave it late, you can do it one year, but also I did way too many. I think I did, you can check on my LinkedIn. I'm not saying follow me on LinkedIn as well, by the way. This sounds like I'm just plugging myself at every opportunity, but I do have it on my LinkedIn because I can't remember. I think I did about 10, 12, and it was so unnecessary. Honestly, it was completely unnecessary. I should have done half as many and done some paid work in those other six weeks, to be honest. What you need to do is you need to do some to show that you're interested in a certain area, and you need to do some to show that you're not interested in other areas. And what I mean by that is doing some in an area you're not interested in, just to rule it out so that when you go into interviews, is an interview tip, when you go into interviews, you can say, well, I've done an interview, I've done a many people are gym personal injury. These are the things I didn't like about it. And this is why, actually, when I did a many people a gym family law, I really loved these parts and that's why I'm interested in this and that's why I'm applying for this. So I think it's really important to do them in both. But you can do like four, not 12 or whatever it is. Okay, we've got a lot of lots and lots of questions coming through here. I'm going to try to make my question short. And the question that we had is, in the book, you say you want to change the system from within and has that been more difficult or different from the way that you initially imagined it? I think it's been different for sure. I think that I've actually been pleasantly surprised by how many other people want to change it too. And it's not, what's so nice is, and it kind of takes me back to that professor at Oxford. It's not just people who have come from non-traditional backgrounds that want to change the system. Actually, I think it's so important that the whole profession cares, particularly when you've got a profession that is still very white and middle class. Actually, you need the white and middle class people caring and wanting to change the system, especially if they make up most of the bar. And I've been really pleasantly surprised actually by the number of barrispers that care and actually do want to make a change. And I probably have a slightly skewed perspective because I'm at the criminal bar where there are a lot of people who are not doing it for the money because you would never come to the criminal bar if you were doing it for the money. So, I probably do have a slightly distorted perspective, but I think I've been really pleasantly surprised by how many people are trying. In terms of, I guess the difficulties in the change, I think one of the things that I've found most difficult is, funnily enough, trying to get race on the table and get people talking about race. I know this year it's become a lot more popular to talk about it, but it's also keeping that conversation there. Right now, it does feel like, I was talking to another Black Barista recently and I'm saying sometimes it feels like we're racing against the clock. Like when is it gonna be time's up on these conversations? And I really just wanna keep these conversations going because that is so important to our clients. It's so important to the society more generally, like that we are actively thinking about how our system, disproportionately affects certain groups. We can't just have these conversations when it's fashionable to do so. We need to have these conversations long-term. So that feels like a constant difficulty, like just literally racing against the clock to be like, keep it on the table, don't let the conversation die. But yeah. I think we can safely say, Alex, that we will definitely want you to be coming back year after year. So there's definitely no risk, I think, to our end of the course, to eventually, you might be a bit fed up with that. Stevie, do you wanna ask some more of the questions? Yes, absolutely. So we've got a question from Cynthia who says, as a woman of color hoping to pursue a career in the Bar, what are the things I can expect and do you have any advice? And she says, so amazing to hear from you today with an exclamation mark. Thanks, Cynthia. Okay, so what can you expect and any advice? All right, I'm gonna be brutally honest. I think that what you do have to expect is that not everyone is going to be as liberal or as open-minded as you want them to be. Because unfortunately, this profession is one in which people tend to be there their whole life. So there's a lot of people who are, and it's not an excuse. We kind of colloquially call them dinosaurs because they've been in the bar for a very long time and probably should be extinct. But there are people who still have very old-fashioned views of what the bar is supposed to be. And there's one thing being old-fashioned, but a lot of them actually also have quite racist views or sexist views. And I wouldn't want to mislead anyone and pretend that that's all gone and that we're now living in this utopia where Barris is already with it and really, really embracing. But having said that, I do think there's a whole wave of change. And I think that particularly at the junior bar, representation is getting much better. So I think that at the bottom, it's about 50-50 in terms of women and men, which I know sounds ridiculous, like why are we still even talking about 50-50 women and men that should have been decided years ago, but no. But we are there, we're there now at the junior end. And even in relation to black Asian and other ethnic minority groups, the figures are that they are broadly proportionate. And the reason I don't particularly like the word BAME, actually, I find it lacks nuance. But the reason I used it there is because I think, having recently looked at the statistics, we are about proportional for most groups, but there are real differences in terms of retention. So for example, black Barristers are much more likely to, sorry, much less likely to progress at the bar than other groups. Whereas I was recently looking at statistics, the opposite can be seen for British Asian Barristers. So that's why the nuance is so important, right? We can't just lump every BAME person together. But yeah, so I think the progress is being made at the junior end. We've still got a long way to go in terms of retention, in terms of progression. I think only 1%, it's just over 1% of QCs are black and only 1% or just over again, it's 1.1 for both of them, judges are black. Now that's poor, like that is really poor. And actually that needs to change. So we do have a lot of work to do, but it's better at the bottom. And there's people like me, the wonderful people who also are pushing really hard for diversity to improve, that hopefully are gonna keep making that change. And honestly, I would encourage everyone to come to this, I love it. As much as I call out the problems, and I really do, I genuinely think that it's the most rewarding job in the world. And so I would hate for anyone to think that because there are some problems, you shouldn't come to the bar because actually the only way these things are gonna change is by, I know you said in your question that you were a person of color too. I mean, that's even more important that you joined, right? Like, we need you. So hopefully it's encouraging as well as calling out some of the problems. So the next question is also about potential problems at the bar, but this is about sexism. So the question asks, thank you, first of all, thank you so much for the amazing talk so far as a woman aspiring to be a barrister. I was wondering if you would say that there's still a lot of sexism at the bar from both clients and colleagues? I think, I mean, yes, there is. I think that there are certain and the barrister that I was shadowing, this is what I was a people. I was shadowing a barrister who was given a speech to the jury and he said, you know, the evidence is circumscribed by blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I've just had a little notification saying my internet connection's unstable, but can people still hear me? Okay, hopefully it's not too unstable, feel worrying. So the evidence is just, if you can still see if you could just give me an indication if I do cut out or anything, okay. And so he said, you know, the evidence is circumscribed by, and then a barrister, a male barrister who was sitting in the back row next to me leaned over and said, I'm not circumcised because I'm Catholic. And it was like, it was actually disgusting. Like I still remember thinking like that is absolutely vile. Like no one asked any questions about what your genitals look like. And it was not wanted, it was not invited. It was just, and I remember thinking, you know, would he have done that if that had been a senior female colleague? You know, was it because of my age that that played into it? Was it the fact that I was just a woman and he wouldn't have cared? That was kind of my first instance of really feeling like just some male barrister's genuinely not taking me seriously because I'm a woman because clearly you don't take me seriously. We're in a courtroom, the judge is in the courtroom, but the case is going on and you're talking to me about your genitals. Like you clearly do not see me as a professional. So for me, that was quite difficult and also just absurd. Would I say I get it from clients? I personally don't think I've really, what you do get is you get, I take it in crime and you get a lot of clients who will say, oh, miss, like, so what can I take you out? Yeah, like after the case, so can I take you for dinner? Yeah. No, you can't. But like, obviously, you know, they wouldn't be doing that to the male barristers but I don't think they're doing it. And I genuinely mean this. I don't think they're doing it in any way to, because they look down on me or see me as inferior. I think it's just a flirty, like which women have to put up with, unfortunately, a lot more than men do. I have had colleagues who have had clients out, rightly say they don't want a woman. And for me, the most important thing there is how the clerks handle those cases because I think that, so our clerks, if anyone doesn't know, are the people that sort out our diaries, they organise all our cases for us, they put the cases in the diary, they sort out cover, they sort out everything, their lifestapers. But, you know, it's really important the clerks handle that well. You know, if the client contacts the clerks or their solicitor contacts our clerks saying we don't want a woman, my view is the clerk should say, we don't want you then. You know, like, actually, we're not gonna take, we don't want your business. Like, actually, that's not how our chambers operates. Would I ever know if they didn't do that? I don't know because I'm a woman so they're probably not gonna tell me. But I would hope, I would really, really hope that that's the attitude my chambers has. And that every other chamber's has because actually I think the only way to stamp out that sort of stuff is by literally having a no tolerance attitude to it. And, you know, in the same way that when you get clients, I know there was a case that hit the press a few years ago of someone saying they didn't want Barrister because she was Muslim. And again, the clerk should not have even entertained that conversation. They should have just said, okay, well, we don't want you. You know? And that's the only, because, you know, if every chamber's has that policy, the person's gonna be left without representation. And I'm pretty sure you'd rather have a woman or you'd rather have a Muslim, you'd rather have a black person, whoever it is, than no one. And actually that's how we start to change attitudes. So I do know it's happened. I've definitely heard clients, well, colleagues have told me that clients have said to them, you know, I didn't want a woman. And but that's, that's what's, they've already got them. My colleagues have gone, well, often they'll just say, okay, I'll represent myself then. Because they're not gonna get anyone else at this stage. And usually they change their mind. So yeah, it's something, I think hopefully I've covered that. I feel like, yeah, I've covered that from both angles. Thank you. Okay, so now we have an anonymous attendee. So they ask whether, in what way, so continuing with the theme of discrimination in some respects, in what way have you encountered unconscious racial bias and stereotyping at the bar, both in relation to barristers and clients? Okay, so I'll start with clients first this time. I think in terms of clients, actually how unconscious is this? Okay, so I guess this is kind of unconscious. So I was representing a client in a racially aggravated case, which is always fun when I turn up and they see me. And they're like, oh, that's not what they were expecting. So I was representing someone who, funnily enough, had made racist remarks at a black woman. And so I think he was really not impressed when he saw me, you know, and I introduced myself as his barrister. And he was actually mortified to be fair. Like he was really mortified. And he kept saying to me in conference, you know, I don't have a problem with all black women because, you know, you're perfectly fine. Like you're, and for me, that just shows the issue, right? That like in his head, he thought that, you know, there were some okay black women, but even the fact that he's referring to it as, you know, some black women, but some, some are not. And, you know, and the remarks he was making, well, accused of making, were very, very like explicitly racist remarks. And so it was very, that was kind of a strange position for me to be in, actually. It was a very weird position because obviously he was my client and I had to do a good job for him. In the end, you know, if anyone is interested in the end of that case, what he, what actually happened is he accepted one of them because it was recorded. We went to the trial on the other one and he got a not guilty. And, and so for me, it was obviously like, I remember the feeling, that real strange feeling because I was half of me was like, oh, brilliant. Like I've got a not guilty for my client, that's excellent. And then on the other hand, it was like, but he's admitted saying, you know, racist stuff to a black woman. And that was the other charge too. And, you know, it was a very mixed feeling. And afterwards, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't the typical celebrations. So that, I guess, that wasn't very unconscious, but I guess that's an example of racial bias. In terms of unconscious bias, I guess I've seen more, the reason I'm struggling is I actually have an issue with the word unconscious bias, right? Because I think it's used too much as an excuse. I think that people fall back on unconscious bias as an excuse for the very overt biases that they have that they refuse to acknowledge. I actually don't think that in this day and age, your biases are unconscious. I think that if you stopped and thought about it, you would know very well that you have those biases. So I think that's why I'm struggling with the word unconscious here. But in terms of at the bar, I mean, again, I'm going to go with over because I think most of them are. You may see these as unconscious, but I remember there's been barristers who have approached me in the robing room and told me that they think that, this one barrister told me that he thinks that it's a disgrace that more diverse candidates have been appointed to the judiciary because it's compromising quality. But basically the fact that there's more black people are being appointed is actually like, yeah, compromising quality. And the thing is, is we were in a robing room with about eight, nine other people. I can't remember exactly, but there were quite a few people. Everyone in that robing room was white. And he came over, he was one of the people that actually one of my colleagues said he's a dinosaur. So that's the dinosaur reference here. But he came over and sat next to me and decided completely uninvited to start having this conversation with me about diversity in the judiciary and how it's awful. And we're on this big diversity drive, but ultimately the judiciary is gonna get worse because we're just accepting anyone and everyone was basically his view. And for me, I mean, that's quite blatantly racist. Again, people might say, well, it's unconscious. This whole idea of meritocracy is unconscious, but no, it's not unconscious. You know what you're doing. Like you're smart enough to become a barrister. So I think for well that that's not an okay attitude to have. And there's an obvious power balance there, right? Like he was a very senior barrister and I was a pupil. So, you know, there's a huge power balance there. So even if he in some world didn't realize that that was racialized, surely, you know, he realized that going into a pupil who's not about to become a judge anytime soon about how the judiciary is compromising quality is a bit of a weird conversation to have anyway. So I just don't, I struggle to buy the whole unconscious thing. But yeah, those are two examples of lay clients and my profession as well. Thanks. So the next question we have is from another anonymous attendee and they say, do you have any examples of changes you've seen or encountered as a result of the things you've written or done? Yes. So I am, finally enough, tomorrow morning, I'm having a meeting with the head of the court service about basically about my experience that happened a few weeks ago. So I don't know, you probably all have seen because it was plastered in every newspaper. I was just like, oh, there's me again. But yeah, it really, yeah. So I mean, it was actually horrible and the day was absolutely awful when I was mistaken for being as a defendant like multiple times during the day. And it's something that has actually happened to me like quite a few times and it's happened to other black barristers that I've spoken to, pretty much everyone who is black in this profession, it seems to have happened to you multiple times. The reason I called it out that day was because it happened so much, sorry, so many times on one day and genuinely as I put in the tweets that I put out, I was exhausted. I was literally like, I have a client to represent and I've literally had to put up with this. Like I remember that the last person who told me, you know, go on my outside, you need to sign in with Yasha, are you represented? I genuinely felt like I was about to cry because I've just explained to someone like two minutes ago, I'm the barrister, like why again, are you assuming that I'm the defendant? Like give me a break. That's literally what I felt like saying, obviously in professional mode, I was there like, I'm the barrister again. And it was really difficult that day. It was really tough. And obviously I've spoken about it quite a lot and the court service, the head of the court service actually to his credit, you know, came forward on the day and apologized. You know, he didn't, what a lot of organizations tend to do when these sort of things happen is sort of say, oh, we'll investigate and they disappear. And I really do think credit will be given to the head of, I'm actually court service at the moment because not only did he apologize on the day, without even questioning it, he just apologized and said, then we'll investigate. He then did investigate, I wrote a personal letter back to me. And then it's also actually made a plan going forward. So what are we gonna do about this? And it's invited me to have a meeting, which is tomorrow, to have a meeting with him to discuss what changes can be made and what we can do to actually affect real change. Now, whether or not there will be real change, I can't say yet because we're still in the early stages. But for me, that's a huge step. The fact that he's even taking time out of his day to not only write to me, but actually then follow it up with a proper meeting is really reassuring. And it kind of gives me, it gives me at least some hope that some of these things are gonna change. Even if a training program is introduced to all staff, something like that would be a real positive step in the right direction. Like that, yeah, that would be great. So I'm hopeful. So it's funny you asked that question today when I put it in tomorrow, so stay tuned for the results. And then we have another question which asks why do you feel the law is an effective instrument for affecting attitudes towards the treatment of race in the UK, in an ideal world, what legal changes do you feel are necessary to do so? So I think the reason I think the law is so important and I think I'm just gonna distinguish here slightly in that obviously I've gone into like the practical application of the law as opposed to policy making, which I also think is important in its own right, but like my eyes don't really fan to be in a politician. Anytime soon, don't hold me to that, I might change my mind. But I think for me it's very much the enforcement of the law that I feel that a real change can be made in terms of race relations really in the UK. The reason I think that real change can be made is because we see at every stage a disproportionate treatment of black people. Like that's the main thing I see. And a real over-criminalization of black people from the earliest stage. So when I say the stage, what I'm talking about is the whole way through the criminal justice system. So black people are over-policed on our streets. You only have to look at the stats to see that that's not even just anecdotal. It is anecdotal too. I mean, honestly, every single one of my black friends has been stopped and searched by the police at some point, I've been stopped in my car. Like for what? There was nothing. I had a van pull me over and police officers circle my car. It was terrifying. I think I was 18 at the time. I was absolutely terrified. And it was me and my black boyfriend in the car at the time. There was nothing. There was literally nothing. They stopped us, spoke to us, nothing went on their way but it was terrifying. And we know that black people are over-policed. I think the most recent statistics showed that 38 per 1,000 black people are stopped and searched compared to four per 1,000 white people. So it's over nine times as many stops and searches for black people. Like it's huge, there's a huge disparity. Then you look at arrests. Again, black people are much more likely to be arrested. I think it's about three, just over three times more likely to be arrested. You then look at when we're unsurprisingly, black people are then fed into the criminal justice system at a much higher rate. You look at inside the system, then black people are more likely to receive a custodial sentence. They're more likely to go to prison, basically. And then their white counterparts, which is obviously hugely problematic. I think that then unsurprisingly, completely unsurprisingly, you look at prison statistics and black people are hugely over-represented. I think the most recent statistics I looked at, in the current population, I think there were about 12% of inmates are black, 12%. That's like four times as much as the proportion of the population of black people. Like it's huge. That's not BAME, that's just black people. And when you think there's 1% of QC's are black, 1% of judges are black, but 12% of the prison population, like it's such a huge disparity. So for me, entering this profession was my way of being able to affect someone that changed. You know, who's in prison? Who's deciding cases? Those are things that really matter to society. Judges are powerful. They're really powerful. They decide on people's liberty. They decide whether you're free to walk the streets or whether you're held behind bars. That's real power. And you know, also on the other end, being in prison is a real loss of power. That is probably the most powerless you can be. You're literally locked up behind bars. So if I can be in a job where I can make a difference to those power dynamics, then I feel like that's a real way to affect change. And that hopefully is what I'm doing on a daily basis. So there's a question that relates, I think, quite aptly to that, which is about increasing diversity in the judiciary. And so the question is, how do you think we can go about increasing diversity in the judiciary, especially in the current Supreme Court? Well, really sad to talk about the Supreme Court. I read an article today, but there might only be one female Supreme Court justice very soon, which is devastating. So I think the Supreme Court has a long way to go to be, I thought we were making progress as well. It was, you know, obviously we had Lady Hale as president before she retired. And yeah, it's quite sad. But what can we do about the judiciary more generally? I think first there needs to actually be a proper investigation as to what it is that is stopping particular, well, women is one thing, but also minority groups that are applying but not getting positions. So we know, for example, that black people are applying a higher rate than their white counterparts, but they're not getting the positions. So what's going wrong there? That's the key thing that needs to be looked at. We can't just write a report saying, you know, black people are applying at a higher rate and they're not getting it. That's sad. You know, like, we actually need to investigate it. Like, what is, why, what is the problem there? We need to find out what the problem is and then actually do something about it. Not just write a report, you know. I'm grateful for the research because I actually think it's really helpful in making a lot of my points. But, you know, we actually do need to try and affect real change. So for example, if it's that they're not getting as good references, okay. So what we really need to assess, A, where the weight that we're putting on references, because we need to acknowledge that actually, you know, there might be systemic things that are preventing black people getting these references from their colleagues. You know, is it that they're not going to the same schools that many of their colleagues are going to or same universities and therefore don't have the same relations that others do? Or is it that actually there are groups, support groups that they're not invited to because actually there's a real ethos at the bar of like helping each other. But like you can only be helped if you're in the groups that are helping each other, right? So if you're not in those groups, then who's helping you? You know, do we need to set up additional groups to actually support groups that we know are underrepresented? Personally, I'm all for that. I think if you know a group's underrepresented, it's your job as a body to make sure that you reach out and try, in the same way, taking a really crude example, you know, Oxford and Cambridge know that state schools are underrepresented. So they go and do access work. I did it when I was at Oxford at state schools because it makes sense. You know, you notice a gap and then you try and bridge that gap by targeting your resources. And that's what I think the judiciary need to do. If they know that there are certain groups that are underrepresented, they need to make the effort to provide training and support to those people so that it can be improved. And there are so many organizations they can go to. They can go to the Black Barristers Network. They can go to women in criminal law, women in family law, women in every kind of law. There's an organization, you know, I really do think there are so many, so many organizations that they can approach and say, look, we know we don't represent this group properly. Like, let us help you. And that's how I think we can see real change. Thank you very much. There's quite a few questions left and I'm conscious that we're running out of time, but I think several of them you've actually answered. One of them actually I thought was quite prescient, which says, hi, Alex, how do you deal with feeling out of place in areas that like so much diversity? As a Black female at Cambridge in my first term at times it feels so isolating. Thank you, love this talk so far. Ah, that makes me a little bit emotional. Yeah, it really is, I think it can be super isolating, super, super isolating. And I'm acknowledging there that I'm sure at Cambridge is I definitely felt it, Oxford, there were times, as I said to you earlier in this talk, you know, there were times when I was literally like, what's the point? What's the point of even continuing here when it's clearly not my place? And I think something that I've really learned is that like, it's not gonna be as rosy as you want it to be, but it will be worth it. And that's what I would try and like put it into context of what you're trying to achieve, what's the end goal here, okay? So for me, it was very much like, like I can say that now proudly with my chest, I can say that actually Oxford was 100% worth it. You know, now I can talk with legitimacy about what it's like to have been to Oxford. Like I had a brilliant education. I had all the advantages that I talked about in terms of going and doing my research, having this huge interest in like, politics of race in the United States, all of that I would not have had, had I not just stuck by it. So I'm really glad that I did and that the kind of end goal made it worth it. But more importantly, I think, you know, what do I do to cope with those feelings now? Because actually that sometimes, sometimes it's hard to see the end goal, right? You're in this moment right now. And you're like, okay, I get it. I know everybody at Oxford told me Oxford's amazing but everyone's told me the bar's amazing. But right now it feels really difficult. I think the thing that I would do is break out of your bubble, really try and do something totally different that is something that you love doing. So for me, that was sport. And it always has been sport. Like I, when I was at Oxford, I know college life used to really get to me and I'd be like, this is not where I'm meant to be. I'd be like, what do I do? I would, I went and like joined teams. So I did athletics and I played rugby. For me, that was my break. I was just like, you know, when I'm in sport, we're all on a level playing field. It doesn't matter what your background is in sport. Like literally no one cares. Like no one cares. They care whether you can run fast enough. Like no one cares whether you're partial, whether you've got an accent, because no one's talking. They're just screaming at each other to like, get to the end, you know? So for me, that just made me feel like we're actually all equals. Like it literally does not matter. In fact, you could be from a certain background and be 10 times better than someone from another background. Like it literally didn't matter for me, especially in the sports I played, because it was very like rugby, you need a ball. Athletics, you need your body. Like that's literally, you know, they were posh sports by women's rugby. I know men's rugby might be a little bit, but women's rugby definitely not. So, loved it. And that was really for me. And I think I've sort of taken the same approach with the bar, like I, until COVID, I was swimming a lot and that would be like my way of just clearing my head or just being like, this is me, me, time. I'd lock my phone away, lock my laptop, no one could communicate with me. And I was just like taking some time for me. So I would really encourage you to find what it is that you don't. And just break away from it all sometimes. It's really important. Thanks so much, Alex. I'm really conscious that you have another appointment straight after this one. That's why I just told him that I was gonna be there bang on six. So. Okay. Well, one thing that I wanted to ask you about is what's next for you, do you think? Oh, what is next? Do you know what? It's actually something that I've been thinking about myself. Well, so I'm writing another book. I've got a fiction book coming out in 2022, which is super exciting. Of course, it will have themes of race in it. I think fiction is a really effective way of getting your point across actually. And I kind of realized that in writing my first book because I was like, also I had to anonymize things, but I was kind of constrained by the truth because I was like, this is a memoir. I have to, it has to be at least very linked to the truth, like even if I do anonymize stuff. Whereas with my fiction piece, it's really exciting because I just have the freedom of creativity. So that's the project that I'm working on at the moment. I think in terms of my bar work, I hope to just keep getting better. I keep, that's kind of my thing. I just want to, it's quite hard in our profession because it's not, you know when like a lot of jobs, there's the next level. So you're like, oh, I could become an assistant manager. I could become a manager. Like with the bar, it's just kind of junior barrister until you're a QC. And for someone as competitive as me, I find it quite hard to be honest. I'm like, why do you always do stuff? Because I need to do the next thing. I'm like, what do you mean I'm going to be in junior barrister for 20 years? I'm like, I need the next project. So I'm sure there'll be lots of things in the meantime. I think it's just, but in, yeah, I guess in my day job, just getting the more serious cases, just building up gradually. Yeah, gradual, oh, the word gradual just makes me feel sorry. One of the things we got asked about is whether you're planning to stay in criminal law. Do you know what? I've had that question a lot. I mean, I genuinely love it. I think that my family law work I do really enjoy as well. And it's a really nice compliment to criminal work. Like not only for the financial reasons that I joked about earlier, but also because it's people's lives again. And for me, I just, I have to care about what I do. And I think, kind of touching back on what I was saying about my first year at Oxford. One of the reasons I think I found it so hard is because I don't care. Like a lot of the stuff that I've studied, I was like, I just don't care. And it was only when I found stuff that I really cared about that I was like, this is how I'm going to smash it. Like this is how I'm going to do well. And I find that with my job. Like I have to, you know, family law provides that. If, you know, last week I was working on a case a dad trying to get his, stop his kid going into care, you know, parents who are trying to see their children. And it feels like a very, what's more important to a person than their children most of the time, you know, it's for me that it kind of ties in really well with my criminal stuff. I can't imagine like suddenly switching to corporate law. I always say never say never. I mean, never. I don't think that's going to happen. I can't see it happening anytime soon. And it's interesting that you're writing this fiction work as well. What are the questions, other questions that we got asked was about any tips about your writing process and what advice do you have aspiring new barristers who want to be writers on the interplay of law and current societal issues? I mean, I encourage writing as much as you can. Like, I think that something that my English teacher should be so proud of, my English teacher when I was in secondary school, she used to say to me, that I remember there was this one lesson that I got a bit carried away with a thesaurus. So like I wrote something and then I decided to like swap out all the words for really long words. And I thought if I write it brilliant, I genuinely was so proud that I gave it to her, you know, beaming. I can just imagine little Alex there like, look how good this is. I've used all the longest words. And I remember her looking at me and being like, this is terrible. I was like, what? I was so proud of that piece of work. And she was just like, Alex, this is really terrible. You know, you're a brilliant writer, but this is awful. She was like, you need to learn to write simply. Like, swapping out all these words for really long, clever words actually isn't good writing. She was like, if you can communicate something simply, then that's, you know, that's the most effective way. And it's taken me many years to kind of build on that. And I'm sure my Oxford tutors would say that it took me many years as well. But you know, I think over time, like it's something that it's just so important. I would encourage every single person listening to this to really do, and I'm sure your tutors would appreciate it as well. But if you can write something in a more simple way, do it. And that's advice for all types of writing, whether it's journalistic, whether it's a book, whether it's legal writing, whether it's an essay. If you can write it in a simple way, you know, sometimes a more complicated word might be the more fitting word. That's the only time you should use it. Like you don't need a more complicated word just for the sake of it. Like it literally doesn't make you sound any cleverer. Often it will make you not sound clever because it might not actually work. So yeah, I would just say that writing simply is really like my top piece of advice. And the best way to do that is things like write on social media or blogs because you're forced to usually keep it under a certain limit. And that can really make you cut out all the unnecessary waffle. Well certainly you write very beautifully in your book. And one of the things that I really liked in the book was the way that you weave between both the sort of personal and your practice. And particularly one example that I remember that I really liked that you talked about was when you went with your grandmother to buy your gown and your wig. And then you discussed how like you were stood in front of the mirror and like I kind of felt like we were already standing there behind you at that moment. Like it was really very visual. And I think that you do that really well in a way which was neither sort of gushing nor kind of let people kind of diminish your experiences at all. So I think it's a really impressive the way that you've crafted that in the book. And that's what makes the book I think personally so compelling. And I'm conscious that we need to wrap up because you are very much in demand. And thank you so much for joining us and for sharing your experiences and for answering so many questions. I'm sorry that we didn't get through all of the questions today. But did you want to say anything before we end? Yeah, I just wanted to say thank you. I really do appreciate it. It's kind of strange to me to be in this position now. I remember, like I said, feeling that I wasn't even sure if I was accepted at Oxford. So to now be speaking at universities, I just spoke in Oxford, UCL, now Cambridge, and I'm just like, oh my gosh, it just feels really, I would just encourage every single person listening here to find what you're passionate about and really genuinely follow it and put your heart into it. And it really will be worth it. Hopefully I'm at least some element of proof of that. But if you really do care, like you can do really well at something. So, yeah, sorry, I wanted to say that. And thank you so much, Kirsty and Stevie. You've both been absolutely brilliant. I really enjoyed it. Well, thank you so much for joining us and for sharing all your experiences with us. Thank you.