 I was doing a lot of drugs and alcohol, just kind of living it, living it up. And dude, I ended up homeless for a while. This is just like just before trading pretty much. So it's relevant, but I ended up homeless, man. Like, yeah, dude lived behind a Walmart for a few days. It was like, we're getting real here again. We're just gonna get into what's real. I made like 80 grand on hurts after they went bankrupt going long, which is fucking crazy, bro. Welcome back to the after hours podcast, everyone. Today we have a very special guest, Roland Wolf. So Roland, thank you for coming on the podcast today, man. Oh man. Thanks for having me. I've actually listened to the last few of them. Um, I love what you guys are doing over there. I think it's really cool and kind of, uh, getting different points of views from different traders. So when Alex asked me to come on, I jumped at the opportunity and, um, I always jump at the opportunity of talking to short sellers in particular, bro. It's funny because there's this whole like B for whatever online, like FinTwit, but FinTwit's a bunch of fucking idiots. And, uh, and for me, I'm like, I need to learn us, uh, cause for those who don't know, I'm primarily a long trader and, uh, and I, and I'm in the same space that y'all are in. And so I always, I always tell my people, like, you have to know about short sellers. It is huge. It is like a huge, huge, huge part of, of small cap and just trading in particular. So, so I always jump at the opportunity to come on and, um, and pick the minds of short sellers when I can, because I know that it helps me in, in terms of my game and the edge that I have. A big part of my edge has been the fact that I'm a long trader that understands short selling and understands where they like to live. And I try to be in harmony with y'all to be, to be honest. I'm not, um, I never saw it as me versus you guys. I saw it as like most of the traders that I've respected over time have been really, really good short sellers. And because of that kind of everything I've done as a long has been, has been built upon trying to get as far away from the short sellers as I can, and then making sure that when they are selling, I'm selling, you know, for the, for the most part, at least the traders that I respect. Um, and then of course being there for squeezes as well to me has always just been a bonus, you know, a lot of people are always looking for a short squeeze and how do you find the short squeeze? I'm not always necessarily looking for that, man. I'm just looking to be in harmony with everything. And if I am, when y'all are being squeezed, hopefully I have a few shares left. That's the way I've always looked at it. So that's, that's kind of, I think what's given me a little bit of longevity in terms of what we do. There's not many longs in our space who are able to, to play the game. You know, yeah, that's a very good point. That's why I actually want to have you on as well. Cause I want to learn more about the long perspective. It's because, you know, understanding both sides of the trade could almost give you a bigger edge on the trade as well. So it's actually very interesting because most people don't know it's actually the first time we're talking together, like ever in video chatting or whatever. So I kind of wanted to get to know you a little bit more, bro. So how'd you get started trading? What is your trading history like? Man, you know, you and me actually are kind of similar, similar time frames, I think in terms of, in terms of, in terms of our career and whatnot. Um, I started in 2016, uh, the whole idea was I had a son and I had a daughter on the way. So I just wanted to supplement my income, man. I didn't know, I didn't know where it was going to take me or anything. But for me, it was just, I had a small amount of money. I put it into Barrett Gold. I Googled cheap stocks because I intuitively knew early on without capital. Um, trading big cap stocks and stuff like that wouldn't get me very far. Uh, so I Googled cheap stocks. I put half of, I think 800 bucks that I had into Barrett Gold and other half in a bank of America. And the Barrett Gold doubled, bro. Like, uh, but it took about eight months. So by that time I had a daughter on the way and I'm thinking to myself, yeah, how are we going to go ahead and supplement my income, um, going forward. So that led me kind of down the rabbit hole. I saw my money double and Barrett Gold over the span of a while. And then I just Googled man and got on YouTube and it took me down this rabbit hole that got us to where we are today. Um, are you still in that Barrett Gold position? No, bro. I think they changed their ticker name to gold now. I think it is gold, but, um, I don't even know where it is, bro. You know, it's just one of those, it was one of those kind of cool things that opened my eyes like, whoa, this money doubled. I did nothing with it. I didn't even look at it. You know, I didn't realize there was this whole side of the game, which I fell in love with basically immediately, dude, because, um, I joined an alert service, you know, that was the first deal, uh, Tim as they were, dude, Sykes popped up for me back in 16 when I started Googling and, um, and in my head, I was like, okay, well, we can copy these trades and pat our account while we learn what we, you know, learn how to trade. So go ahead. It's a little wild that, that you mentioned that, but in 2016 was the exact same time that I found Sykes as well and was in the same space as you for the same reasons. I had son that was a, that was being born and born and then daughter comes along and I'm like, dude, I gotta, I gotta change something. And man, yeah, it's pretty inspiring to hear that. Dude, it's, uh, so that's, that's how it started NAVB. And I, and I feel you bro, there's a lot of dads out there. Um, we kind of come from a different perspective. I feel like, uh, than some of the young cats and we can get into this later and stuff like that. But, but I was like chatting with, with dads too. And, and people that are kind of come from the same situation as me, but, uh, before you were trading, what'd you, what did you do? Yeah, dude. Um, so I played soccer man, my whole life, like growing up, that was my, that was my deal. Um, I was a high level soccer player. I had a full ride scholarship to, uh, Boston university and always well, dude, um, I wanted to play professionally. I got to do so for a very small period of time, but I went down to South America after college. I didn't finish college halfway through. I left. I always knew college wasn't for me. School really wasn't for me. Um, something kind of a confet, a competitive environment is what I needed, but, uh, South America and then Croatia ultimately in my early 20s where I ended up getting hurt. And that was it, dude. That was kind of the, um, that kind of led me into my mid 20s, which was darkest shit, man. Like without soccer, I didn't know at the time, man, but, and I've worked through all of it obviously by now, but without soccer, I was left with this huge void. You know, you work your whole life towards a goal and that's fucking gone, dude, like that. And, and so I was just left with a big old void and a party for the first time in my life, you know, I was doing a lot of drugs and alcohol, um, just kind of living it, living it up. And, um, dude, I ended up homeless for a while. This is just like just before trading pretty much. So it's relevant. But I ended up homeless, man. Like, um, yeah, dude lived behind a Walmart for a few days. It was like, we're getting real here again. We're just gonna get into what's real. And, um, and then I ended up getting sober, dude, going to rehab cause I got hooked on pain pills after soccer, man, with my ankle. That's crazy. Real, real bad, dude. Opiates happened to my brother too. He was also a high level player. This would have been, I was 24 years old, bro. So 24. Um, how were you supplementing income at that point? I was homeless. There's not a lot of income, but I mean, yep. My dad's a personal injury attorney and, um, and I've worked on and off there my whole life, dude. So like, so that was kind of, I've always had a steady thing. And then after soccer, my whole goal was especially, and this is before I had kids, but my goal was then maybe just go to law school, take over the family firm, kind of live that life and stuff like that. And dude, honestly, it just, school wasn't for me, bro. I don't know how else to say it. Like I just couldn't sit, I couldn't even imagine even now the whole time I was dragging my feet, dude, you know? So I was working the nine to five. It was, uh, making like a 800 to a thousand pre-tax per week, which is fine, bro, you know, it's like a decent living for, especially for a 20 year old. With nothing but, uh, parties and whatever. So there's a big 2012, 2011, basically, 2010, 2011, 2012. Yeah. Uh, so yeah, pain pills, dude. And then that took me to street drugs and stuff like that. And, um, I was homeless for a while, pain handling, like, dude, crazy shit, bro. Like I, I wasn't raised like that. So I ended up in this position. Um, and then I got clean. I lived in a sober, uh, sober living for a year. Help another dude stay sober. Cause that's, I think that's a very important transition that I don't want to skip through it because you went from pain pillars, pain pills, drugs. And then what was that trigger that I was like, you know what, time? Are you struggling to find the right stocks to trade? Are you making money for one, two, maybe three weeks in a row and losing it all in one day? Are you struggling with sizing up on your trades? Well, I found that the best way to fix these problems is to trade alongside a millionaire trader live on stream with no delays. My investing clubs, new live trading stream is the missing puzzle piece to your trader every day at 9am. I share my screens, find the best stocks to trade and build my watches live. Then I execute those trades live on screen. It's like you're sitting right next to me as I trade every single day. Due to the high demand of the screen share, we only have a few spaces available every single month. So if you're seeing this now, it means that space is still available. And here's the best part. If I do not generate $20,000 in realized gains per month on live stream, you do not pay. So go to myinvestingclub.com slash live trading to get 50% off your first month on the live stream. Spaces are limited and filling up quick. What do you have to lose? This may change your life. It wasn't even me, dude. It wasn't even me. If it was just me, I don't even know. It was my, dude, when you're stuck in like drug addiction and spots like that in life, whatever it is, you feel alone. You feel like no one's there to, to get your back, help you out. And no one cares about you. And cause all that really matters. Your, your vision is so narrow is this drug that you need just to be good. Uh, so you don't get really sick, bro. Like really, really, really sick and just hate life and want to kill yourself. That's pretty much what happens. Um, but the moment was that my mom found me with my big brother, my big, big brother, my oldest brother. He's a, he's a beast, dude. I wouldn't mess with them. So I, so there was no like running away. There was nothing, dude. It was just my moms and my, my big brother. Um, and I just remember feeling relieved, dude, like that I do. My mom looked like an angel when she came in, you know what I mean? I was like, this is thank God. I just got chills thinking about this moment. Um, yeah, dude. And she, they took me to a, to a, uh, detox spent a week there. Got, got all the shit out of my system. And then for a year, I lived in a sober, sober living community, bro. And I didn't think I'd be there long, you know, as soon as the time was up for me to go, I figured that's it. I'm going to bounce, uh, which was after three months, I stayed there for the next seven, uh, eight months, dude, because, because it was safe. And I had an opportunity to help people, you know what I mean? And, um, and now looking back, you know, some of the best people I know came from that place because you have to, in order to kick that shit for good, you have to change as a person. You have to like get into your psyche. You have to make amends. All the people who fucked you over in the past that you think, you know, whatever those are, those are the things that really fucked you up. So, so it was, it's one of, it's one of those things that, uh, I had a girlfriend before that she's now my wife. She left me because of all the shit, you know, we got four kids now. So I, I got sober, uh, a year later, I was looking, looking good, not going to lie was like lifting a lot and as healthy and as spiritually fit as I've ever been in my life, bro. Um, that, that's the foundation upon which I've built this next life. It's, this is, I'd say my third chapter, bro. This is like my third chapter because the first was the soccer life. The second was the drugs and partying, which ended fucking terribly, you know, kind of the lows. And this is like my third act, which is family man with my kids. Trader, then I didn't want to be a trader dude. It just kind of came on to me. I guess you professional bass fisherman in your local HOA. Yes, sir. Ripping lip, ripping lips in the lake all day, bro. No, it's, that's, that's kind of the journey, dude. And then like I said, had, had my, uh, got my wife back or we got married, had our kid, uh, second kid came about, so let's supplement the income. And now we're trading dude, you know what I mean? So NAVB and I think, I think that was the ticker. I think it was NAVB, um, or NWBO. I forget which one it was, but that was my first trade ever. Right. And I get into the penny stocking silver, like chat room, bro, a bunch of idiots in there, um, but you don't know, but you don't know, which real winners, you don't know anything. When you get into this world, you just don't know anything. You get into a chat and all these people are using the little code words and shit. And I'm like, these people know what's up. You know what I mean? Someone shouted out and, uh, NAVB, I literally just went on E trade because I had opened it. I didn't have charts. I didn't have E trade pro even. I was on E trade.com bro, and I bought it and then I was just clicking refresh over and over again. The price kept going up. I was up 30%. I went in the chat. I'm like, Hey guys, I'm up 30%. It's my first trade ever. They're like, sell it, sell it. I sold it 30% bro. 10 minutes. You know what I mean? I was like, this was 30% 10 minutes. I did the math, bro. I'm like, Barrett gold took, took damn near six, eight months. I'm like, I just hit 30% in 10 minutes. I don't, I hit the grail. The holy grail bro, you know? Bro, that's so funny. That's so funny. You guys, I have a similar story to that too, because my first short trade ever was 2000 shares of a stock called VGGL. I shorted it at $4 and within like a few minutes, it went down to like 350. I made $1,000, like the fastest I've ever made. And like my life changed forever, bro. I was like, that's it. Like I found it game over. Do you know what mine was? What was it? Drys. I longed dries when it was five 2016 dries. Yes. Yes. I was listening to Michael Goode webinars and I love that guy. That's a guy I want to get on the pod as soon as we can. I love that dude. He's like, he really is, but he was talking about drys in a webinar and I went, sounds like a great buy. And here I long it gaps up overnight and I sell it. And I'm like, oh my gosh. And I do the same thing. I started doing all the math in my head. I was like, if I could just repeat this and then coming days runs all the way to 120. Little bit of hope because a lot of people start trading. They're really skeptical, right? I mean, at least I was skeptical that I didn't know that the issue was possible. I thought that the way to make money in the market was like the Warren Buffett way. You buy a company, you hold it forever and then maybe you make 30% after five years. I didn't know day trading existed. So I think once people try it and they have that one trade that whether it be luck or not goes really well, they're hooked on it forever. Yeah. And that's the same thing with me, actually. Mine was a short trade. I primarily do a lot of like longing and like swing trading now too, but mine was actually a short trade. Mine first started because I started a bit later than all of you guys. I started close to like 2018, kind of 2019 and mine was just like kind of just this random short that went down and I was like, fuck, this is it. But as we're kind of talking about trading, we had Jack Kellogg on the podcast and he was talking about you too. And he was saying that you were kind of an inspiration and you've been an inspiration to me too as well. And yeah, we were just kind of talking and he mentioned kind of like the bankruptcy plays that he kind of learned from you and I thought that's like, that's would be kind of like a really interesting kind of like segue into trading because yeah, bankruptcy plays have certainly been hot. So yeah, maybe you could kind of talk about like some setups that you like and like maybe briefly talk about kind of like the bankruptcy type trades and stuff like that. Yeah, dude. So I realized kind of early on in the journey that that all the stuff that I was being taught long wise, all the accepted long strategies, I was just really struggling with dude. So breakouts, high day breakouts, anything pretty much that has to do with buying strength, bro. I realized kind of early on, we're not providing the best opportunities like every time I buy, you get stopped out, you see it go, I don't like those. And then as I started to understand risk and reward a lot better, it, it then it made even less sense, man, because I'm a big, big, huge advocate of knowing where I want to sell, knowing exactly where I want to sell or at least the area. And when I'm trading breakouts and stuff, I realized I don't know where, man. Where the hell am I going to sell? And if I don't know where I'm going to sell, I'm less likely to do to take action if I'm just waiting for price action. It's going to be that one red candle or, you know, some sort of random stuff that's going to take me out. So I realized that early on, and then I realized a lot of those spots when they don't work, short sellers are going to pile in all the noobs who are playing those same strategies are going to panic. So it kind of led me to just some different ideas, man, through tracking trades where I'd watch, I just watch scenarios play out and only takes a couple times for me to see something happen to where I deem it to be some sort of strategy or potential pattern, at least to the long side. So I just noticed way back in the day, man, early in my trading that I would see these stocks go from like five, 10 cents to like 50, 70 cents a buck, two bucks, three bucks. And anytime I see something like that, this is what leads me onto the hunt for some sort of set up or strategy. Anytime I get, I get a big runner, I start asking myself these questions like what made it run, where did it run from? You know, what was, what was the price range that it came from? Obviously, it's going to be market dependent. But I remember just seeing one, it was a bankruptcy play and it's like, I remember just watching a bankrupt, a bankrupt stock go from like 10 cents to a buck. And in my head, I'm, I'm wondering what the hell is going on, you know, so much in the stock market for me just doesn't make sense. And the, and those are some of my, some of the best strategies have come from these things that don't make sense to like, why would a bankrupt stock balance a thousand percent? I don't know, you know, but in my head, it's a great opportunity. It's a 10 cent stock that can go a thousand percent. I can take a shit ton of shares, you know, kind of win-win. If it doesn't work, I got 10 cents downside, bro, you know, that kind of idea. And then I saw it happen again and again. And for me, the second I see it happen two or three times, I'm usually going to try to pull the trigger on the fourth and give it a go, you know, test this pattern out. Let's see if I can now play it, you know, just because I see a pattern doesn't mean I can play a pattern. So I'm just like, all right, let's give it a go. And I've had some of my best trades ever, dude, Hertz, when they went bankrupt, when they went to HTZGQ, bro, that bounce was epic, you know, and I was hitting that several times on those bounces. I made like 80 grand on Hertz after they went bankrupt going long, which is fucking crazy, bro. So after these companies go long rolling, are you just waiting for some sort of like chart breakout signal or some sort of pattern to come at play? Or are you just like, you know, it's bankrupt, like eventually going to bounce. Let me just load up shares, just in case, is there a more methodical way of going by it? Dude, I've tried them all sorts of ways, bro. I've tried loading them, you know, on the dip. I have found that the best way for me to do it is to just give it a day, two days to form any sort of base. So once I get a base that I deem to be a base, I'm going to be working risk off of that as opposed to any sort of breakout. And that kind of cuts across most of what I do personally. Um, dude, I am putting my money into the shittiest stocks ever created, you know, like some of the worst companies on the planet. I've got more cash in my brokerage account than most of the time when I look through filings on these companies, which is a fact. And when I think about it like that, dude, if my money is going in there for even a second, I need to maximize risk reward to the long side. What is it about these bankrupt stocks and those bounces that give you the confidence that it's going to do it? Is it seeing it a month, a bunch of times, or is there something that you're seeing in terms of cash or filings or hype that makes you go, this has the potential to squeeze? First of all, the bigger the company that I found, the better the bounce, the more hype there's going to be, the more chance they may emerge from bankruptcy. You know what I mean? Like there was kind of like the American Airlines, right? The American Airlines bankruptcy everybody bought during the bankruptcy. And then it rallies out of that hurts like you're saying is a great call out that, you know, it's a big company, almost too big to fail. So somebody got to step in to save it. Yep. No, that's it. That's that's that's always been a big part. The best trades for me have come from the best companies that have gone bankrupt, OK? Beyond that, I mean, it can be hit or miss. We'll see a lot lately. We've been seeing a lot like 50 cent companies going bankrupt and then dropping down to 20 cents and then 10 cents and five cents. Those can be hit or miss. But I the majority I, you know, just kind of recently, I'm still actually holding it right now or full disclosure. But but V-Ray went bankrupt. V-Ray, they're now V-Ray Q. I was buying it at six cents, seven cents. And I still have it. It's like one sense that it's a lame, you know, so it's not always going to bounce when they and my mistake was just not taking it off before they got delisted, man. So I'm down like five grand on that. It's not the biggest deal at the end of the day. It's a small bag I'm about to get rid of. That's the day when they don't work. They're going to go to zero, bro. Oh, they have earnings coming. I'll probably hold till then. And then August 14th, according to thinkorswim, I have only got one penny left, bro. We're good to go. But you can only go to zero. It's not oil futures. So but here. But this is but this is an example of worst case scenario for me, you know, like and let us have more. Yeah, it's it's just one of the like I got a penny left. I can cut it whenever maybe end of the year for tax purposes or something. Can we maybe. But it's like if you go to tell, for example, tell or yell tell it's yell. It was up and it was yell why you know, you know, this thing, they announced that they're going to they hadn't announced their bankruptcy yet, but they announced they were going to be and for whatever reason, they went from 50 cents to five bucks, bro. You know what I mean? And that's not whatever reason. I mean, definitely they'll be short seller stepping in, you know, it's a BK company that's up like five hundred, six hundred, seven hundred percent in a few days and. Oh, yeah, I was shorting it, bro. I was short. Dude, why wouldn't you? I mean, and. And that's why sometimes we're going to see stuff like this on stocks that don't make sense. And because of that, I don't try to look too much into if it makes that much sense to me or not. I kind of dumb it down, man. If I see something, it just becomes a setup in this setup. I just call the BK bounce. You know what I mean? And over the years, dude, it went away in 2020, 21, 22 because of the stock market, bro. We like that crazy as bull market. Dude, we were running out of stocks that were sub one and sub two. And there were hardly any BKs. There were a fuck ton of IPOs, but hardly any BKs. And then 2022's market crushed everything. And it's just like BK, BK, BK. And we're still seeing remnants of that today, bro. BKs every day. Another great example of literally my favorite strategy I've ever had. And I still play it now. It's just it's just been super bastardized and adultery. I don't know. It's not it's not the same. Everyone knows and everyone plays it, but reverse split pumps, dude. Yeah, they're done back in the day. They used to split, fade to a buck and then pump them because they got to hold a dollar for compliance. Yeah. And that was my favorite. You know, I and I actually sold that strategy in a guide and then someone took that and put it on YouTube and all this other shit. And now it's just like people load the splits and I don't know what the fuck they're going to do anymore. The edge is gone, in other words for me with that scenario for the most part. But dude, back in the day, you know, and this is just an example. So people understand like I'm not trading breakouts and shit. You know what I mean? Like I'm not trading when everyone trades, probably why I have success, but I'm trying to find trying to find scenarios that are predictable for me within small cap because small caps kind of predictable, bro. You know, they're scam companies. And if they're not scam companies, they're like one drug biotechs that need cash to survive, right? So they're they're just pumping dumping themselves all day, every day. So that for me, combined with the short sellers, combined with the fact that everyone teaching long stuff doesn't know what the fuck they're doing. And they teach stuff that's just kind of like accepted. And it led me in a totally different direction. It's specifically Tim Grittani, man, was the one where I was trying to get as far away from that motherfucker as possible. I'm like, I'm buying into team to into TG's levels. He was like at the time he was just like one of the best short sellers in the world, you know, and I'm thinking to myself, dude, my entries are his entries. That's not good if I'm trying to be long. I got to figure out how to how to get on the right side of that. You know what I mean? Yeah. And you nailed a lot of A.I. figures when that sector came. I remember. Bro, you actually killed A.I. So I wanted to talk about that because I think you had a good trade on SAI, was it? Oh, yeah, that was a really good trade. Yeah, that was a really good. Yeah. And maybe we could just kind of like talk about that one a little bit, because I noticed usually I'm always a little bit hesitant to buy on that first kind of day where you know, it's like just some random stock doing like for again, 500 K volume. I'm like, fuck, should I buy it? Should I not? So maybe you could kind of talk about your thought process on that one, because it wasn't kind of like a high momentum and like anything with A.I. and it was just was running. But maybe you could kind of talk about that one, too. Yeah, bro, that was a good one this year. So one of the big things for me is sector momentum. And I know that you guys over there teach the opposite of it, how to short it, too, because and drives was the first time that we all probably saw this happen together. It's funny, all of us like maybe not Harry, but the other three of us definitely watch that shit happen. Me, I fucked it up, man. I think Harry was still in elementary school when that happened. Yeah, yeah, there you go. I was I was still getting bullied in elementary school. But yeah, dude, that's been a big thing for me over the years has been sector momentum. That's usually when I make my most money because all because I'll grab a basket of stocks in the sector when it happens. And so and they'll go up together. You know, if the leader gaps, they're going to all gap, you know, so I found. I found a lot of success in the sympathy plays, which is funny, because I know you guys have found a lot of success in the sympathy plays, you know, because when the leader goes, they all go. But when the leader dies, they all die. And that's kind of what I try to get through to people is like, if you understand this phenomenon, all I all I have to do is beat the rest of these idiots to my positions, bro. I just have to know where to go first. And I don't have to be very first. These things normally hit my scans and stuff now. Certain sectors all know which stocks to go to, but I'm not like pulling stocks out of thin air and throwing stock. Like they'll hit my skin with some volume and stuff like that, which is how I end up finding these stocks in the first place. But from that point, I'm watching the leader, man. I'm playing off the leader, too. You know, as long as the leader strong, I'm good. In this case, it was CXAI was the leader that day. The previous day, I think CXAI ran and then they did that crazy ass morning gap to like 90 bucks or some shit, whatever crazy. You know, I'm talking about. Yeah, that. So day one right there, that is the day when they went from one buck to 10. Right. That's the day I bought SAI in the ones. OK. And and I didn't even play CXAI at all. I didn't play at all because it ran. I don't make a habit of buying stocks that are up 100, 200 percent personally. So when they run, my whole thing is find the sympathy play and beat everyone to it. If I can, not everyone, but find the best one. In this case, it was SAI. I didn't even find it. I would have. It would have popped on my scan, but a buddy of mine, Tanner, found it and check out SAI and just the way it was just one of those gut traits where I'm like, this is the one I already that was kind of setting up at CXAI was going nuts. And my whole thing is like, I would rather risk and be able to take like 10, 20,000 shares in the ones and eat a four or five K loss. If I have to and then chase it tomorrow for the gap up, like be with everyone trying to get into this thing for the gap up. So a little bit of luck. Yes, there's always a little bit of luck, I guess. But I just consistently put myself in that next one. And I just try to beat everyone to it. So so when the volume comes in, even if the trade doesn't work, I can still make money. And that's kind of been always my goal, like dip buying in the mornings, I try to make sure whatever my first profit target is, I get that real good risk reward to there, if that makes sense. I'm getting one to three, one to five to like VWAP. If it's super way under VWAP or high a day, wherever my first target is going to be my sell target, I'm trying to get good risk reward with that trade, as opposed to like the ultimate to keep my perspective really good. A lot of traders struggle with like being early and holding and still having faith in the setup working. Is there a time frame for you that you kind of decide, OK, I was early. It's time to cut it and reassess this. And how do you overcome that? It's something I'm always working on, bro, because I like one of my issues has always been I'm way too early. Like sometimes I I'm just way too early throughout my career. There have been times I'm too early. I'll get stopped out. I'll take small profits, whatever else it is. And the shit doesn't run till like two days later always. So I've always kind of told myself that and lately I've been. I've been just really macro driven. So if there is a really strong macro thing going on, I'll try to be more patient. You know, if I'm seeing multi day moves and multi day squeezing and stuff like that, I'll try to be more patient in my sizing out. It's literally the only thing I'll adjust. When we get hot markets or we get like big, big runners is I will size up at times because it's time to risk up and I will size out more slowly with bigger positions at times. So I kind of keep it really simple, man. I let the markets dictate that portion of my trading, which is you know, I kind of control that extension of gains through frequency and size of sizing out, if that makes sense. That's kind of like my tool for for, you know, stoking the flame or not, man. How do you kind of justify that risk? I'm never one who gets big risk anyways. I'm like, you know, and the nature of of dip buying and the nature of kind of buying weakness is generally speaking met with like lower volume, right? So when I'm not trading breakouts and I'm not chasing strength and shit, it's not it's it's a different ballgame psychologically for me. Like the stock comes to me. I have levels I can get within one or two cents of risk, you know, oftentimes if I want to stock is only trading at three cents. That's not so bad. That's different. Honestly, I honestly, I'm the only time you'll see me bargain hunting like that, like 10, 20 cent stocks. If that's what's running. If I'm 20 cent stocks going to a buck or two bucks, you'll see me there. If it's all 10 dollar stocks running to 50 dollars, you'll see me looking for 10 fucking dollar stocks, rolling garage sailing. Yes. Oh, dude, I'll go to the bottom of the barrel if need be, man. I'll go to the if that's where the money is. That's where the benefit and that's always been the game for me and adjusting. And because of that over the years, I'm able to trade five cent stocks. I'm able to trade 10 dollar stocks, 15 dollar stocks. I once we get to 20, 30, 40, I don't know what it is, bro, but it's just I don't I feel out of I don't feel comfortable man with the range and the speed at which they trade and how to size and all that stuff. It's just not been for me. So I'm kind of stuck in small cap for now, which I'm which I like, bro, I like being in small cap. I know how it works. I know the companies I'm messing with. So I don't get married to them. I know they're just a vehicle, you know, for me to be in and out and go about my day. You mentioned IPOs. Have you used like kind of like IPO bounces as a strategy? Because we've had a lot recently go from like 22 to a dollar and everyone on Twitter seems to be just constantly tweeting them and tweeting them and tweeting them. I've taken kind of like one or two, but I was wondering like, how do you feel about those like super rangey, broken down charts that are just you see them go from like a dollar to like 60 cents or like you see them go from two dollars to like a buck and you're like, fuck, like this should bounce. Like what's your kind of approach on stuff like that? Just don't touch it. I don't touch them, dude. I've tried to touch them. Like I can't I can't even get myself to touch them, dude, because I just can't, man, I don't find edge in it. I don't find that good risk reward where I can load up like 510, 20,000 shares if I want with five cents risk and trust that I can do that. They're all super micro low floats at times. I have had very little success, dude, with like IPOs, the SPACs, like the SPAC plays that are that are micro floats and just micro floats in general, bro, I struggled to long them, you know, I struggled to long them because spread gets wacky. Liquidity is not there for me to take the shares. And and those remember like the Chinese stocks, the Chinese run recently, we had kind of a recent Chinese run those two, I struggled with the Chinese stocks. Those were all very thin, too. When they trade thin and they're halting and and they're moving $10 in a day with, you know, $500,000 in dollar volume or 500,000 volume even. I struggle, bro. Straight out. Did you get Miegel because I saw Jack on Miegel? No, no, you didn't get that. No, I did. I struggle with, yeah, with micro floats, bro, in general, just because I don't know, just gambling. The price action is not clean. Yeah. Not that it's fucking clean anywhere really in small cap, that. Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say something important that you mentioned is the the sympathy plays and so funny because you make money on the way up and we make money on the way down. So it just really goes to show that with the stocks in play, I mean, so long as you have the right strategy, I mean, you can make money both ways. So I wanted to ask you, do you have like a really memorable trade, whether it be like a big win or big loss that kind of comes into your mind when you think about trading, because I feel like we all have that one big win, big loss that kind of just really stuck to us. So I wanted to ask you, do you have something like that when loss on that just really sticks out to you? Yeah, I got two. I got two tickers that live in my heart. One is AUPH. AUPH, bro, biotech, lupus drug. This is before I realized what I was really messing with. You know, I was getting deeper into trading. My skills were improving. I was getting really good at dip buying in the morning. And back in 2017, they had phase two results come out. This is, dude, I used to do. I used to look at biotechs because, you know, you go online, they're like, you need to do your due diligence. I'm like, all right, I'll learn everything about this mother fucker company if I need. So so, dude, I learned so much about biotechs and and like phase, like how they work. And and it's honestly, it helps me as a trader. It does. But I happen to know that they were kind of at that. That's that. That's the chart right there to 11. That's actually it was a series of trades that day that week where I was just dip buying every morning, kept trying to go red. And I noticed it kept holding and I just kept dip buying it every morning, dude. And it just like margined out of my ass, bro. Fucking shouldn't have been. But like that was one of those things where I hit a scenario. It was predictable every morning to me for some reason. I saw the turn and I was trading it. And so I hit that for like five, six, seven days in a row and really grew my account early on, like when it was smaller. So there was that one. And then if you actually fast forward that to like 2021, I want to say, I traded it again, dip buying it in the forest for a swing because I knew phase three results were coming out. Right there, bro. Yep. I knew phase three results were coming out. So is that 29? Yeah, right into 2020. And I dip bought it down there in September in the fours. And then I was up 100 percent going into the results, which was my plan when I was dip buying it. I was like, hopefully it'll run into their phase three results and I'll be up just in case it's bad phase three results. And it got to down 50 percent or whatever. So I was actually you all probably know, Huddy, he's my boy. Yeah. And we were we were going to Miami to do some bootcamp or something like that. And I got off the plane and they had halted positive phase three news. And I was like trying to get my bags and just dishing off the shares, bro. So cool. That was an $80,000 trade. That's still my biggest trade to date was actually that swing. So it's funny. It's not even a day trade. I held that bitch for months for like a month and a half or whatever. But that was memorable. Biggest loss, bro. Also, one of the reasons I don't short that much these days, to be honest, if not ever, is RBZ is the ticker. RBZ, bro, just a random day, random ticker. I was shorting heavily this month, bro, the most I've ever shorted in my career to the point where I'm like, fuck longing, like I was batten 95 percent that month or something. And I think I was up 80 grand on shorts. You remember what it was? This would have been 2019 or 2020. This stock went crazy, didn't it? It was like. I was just it went nuts, bro. It went nuts. I don't know if we do that, Joe. I think, uh, yeah, right here. It was like back in the back. If you think it was one of those, bro, that like literally I showed up. I was slamming everything all month, just like highs and just crushing the shorts. And and funny thing about me, man, when I'm along, I'm very chill. I'm very calculated with risk reward. I'm very all about like mitigating risk. And when I start short selling it, I switch, bro, into this mean motherfucker. It's not even, I'm not even kidding you. I get aggressive. Dude, this is one of the reasons that I don't short because I do know myself and I know when I flip over the script, I'll be, dude, I will be aggressively short selling my favorite long setups, dude. It's fucked. I get really fucked is what happens, dude. So I do plan on getting back into the short selling realm. Just with not until I have a extremely concrete plan, I'm going to put 30 K in an account and go at it, you know, like and try my best to not blow that account up and maybe I'll join you guys for a little bit and see what you all are doing over there. But but I do plan on on getting into some short selling. That trade, dude, was like, I showed up super late to the markets. I was like, I don't know, an hour late. It had already spiked and dropped like five bucks. And it was just popping back to VWAP or something, something of that nature, bro. And I took like 200 shares, man, and just willy nilly, like, I'll make a grand if it drops back down to lows, which it should. And yeah, RBC instead of like pop and halted on me. And I was like, fuck, dude, you know, like to high day. And then I added, I just doubled it. And then another high day, I doubled it. And then I'm playing that game, dude. Next thing I know, I had like 2,000 shares. I was down 10 bucks a share. You know, I'm like, oh, what the fuck, dude? Like this isn't supposed to happen. And it had never happened to me, man. So it was just one of those things, dude. It seemed like a walk in the park, you know, like I got a Chihuahua on a leash or something. I'm going to go walk her and then I turn around and turn back around and it's a dragon, bro, you know, double, double, double. I ended up with keeping those shares another 10 10 bucks a share or some shit, you know, and then cutting it. Dude, I would have been down 100 something. And I was thinking about doubling, you know, where I cut, bro. So that was that. I didn't stop short selling, but but that was definitely I haven't had a loss like that since then. It's still my biggest loss ever as a trader to this day. And it was a huge lesson for me, bro. I won't let that happen again. I'm sure if I start shorting, it's inevitable there are going to be times just like when I'm long where trades just get out of hand. That's trading and it's just kind of how I react. So I'm going to make sure I have the right systems in place to to handle that when I do. But but those are the two, dude, you know, a couple of tickers that will live in my heart. But there are tons of other tickers, bro. That just will always live in my heart, dude, as you guys know, you kind of form a personal relationship with the man, you know, like once you've traded these things, if you make money or lose big money, you know, it's like I talk to him like chicks, dude. You know, I'm like, second chick, bro. Hey, girl, how you doing today? Exactly. Exactly. There are some that I'm super fond of and some I really am going to stay away from 10. And it's it's very important, bro, because I've not met one successful trader that hasn't had like a really big wake up call. And oftentimes to get to that next level, you need to be able to lose to learn what never to do again. Right. So I think that's something really important that people need to understand is like, you know, you should not look forward to those days. But I forget someone who said it. They said that you already had the loss and you already paid for it. And if you do not learn from that, then it was just wasted. So if you have that type of loss, there's two types of people. There's a person that says, I'll fuck it like whatever. Like it was the stocks fall, like I didn't do anything. And the other person says, wait a second, like I can learn from this. And if you already paid the tuition with the loss and you're not learning from it, then it's just a waste. So if anyone took a loss, I know that there's a lot of crazy stocks moving right now. So I think that if anyone is struggling while they're trading and watching this to understand that you're going to lose and you have a choice, you paid that tuition, are you going to learn from it? Or are you going to ignore it? And I think that's very important for you. You learn from it and it changed your life. It changed your life. Yeah, 100 percent, man. That's funny. You mentioned that because I remember watching like Tim Grittani, bro, I watched all his stuff and, you know, and held him in such high regard. And remember him talking about these big losses, bro, and that all traders are going to go through it. I remember listening to LX 21, Greg talking about some of these losses and everyone I respected, bro, had gone through this. So and at that point, you don't have to. And the truth is, you don't have to. Like, yeah, that's the only time that's ever happened to me. But at the same time, a sense of relief, bro, because I knew it was coming at some point, you know what I mean? And so I'm like, thank I'm like, I was kind of like to me, you know, it was a kind of a rite of passage, bro. It's kind of how it felt to me. And like I said, it didn't scare me away from short selling. I just know that when I go back, I'm going to be able to. I'll have to realize it. Yeah, I'll have a I'll be coming back. That thought always crosses, though, when you're watching that content. Like I remember watching Grittani stuff and your and you mentioned LX 21 as well. That won't happen to me because I've seen this. I see what they're saying. I'm going to learn from that and I'm not going to do it. But then, lo and behold, we all do it. Every single one of us fall victim to that same trap that they all do, that we all do it. And, dude, talking to traders over the years, man, it's always it's one of two things. It's either they have their biggest trade coming up, you know, which and you're going to risk up, man, that's that's what happens when it's a plus plus good markets, everything lines up. That's also going to be probably your most dangerous trade as well. You know, when you have that kind of conviction. So that's what I always hear. It's either too much conviction and the trade doesn't work. And now they're in a weird spot mentally or it's like me where it's just like willy-nilly walk in the park, not expecting anything, but not prepared either, you know what I mean? And not having a plan. I had zero trading plan, bro, except for like throw some shares at it. And when it goes back to low a day cover because it's going to go there kind of thing, I didn't have a plan for what happened if it didn't. You know, I didn't have a plan for a halt up, five buck halt up, and then gap up, you know, I had zero plan. And at that point, I'm like, well, fuck it, I only got 200 shares doubled down and then fuck it only got 800 shares doubled down. But then you're down 10, 20 bucks a share on one of these crazy rippers, you know? So it happens. Yep, it happens, bro. I have a question for a lot. I know Joe mentioned that you like fishing, but I want to ask, what's your morning process like? What's your morning routine like? Do you trade all day? You trade a couple of days a week. You trade in the morning, they go fishing in the afternoon. Could you walk us through like what a normal day in your life is like? Yeah, these days, man, well, I got four kids. So it's usually wake up breakfast for them. I run in and throw my skin up first, dude. I like get in before my kids are up, throw my stuff up just to get bearings, wake my kids up, breakfast. My wife will get them to school or they'll get on the bus and get to school. And that's just trading, dude. I try to trade the first hour and a half of the day. That's where I'm at. That's where I like to trade. That being said, my hours change drastically, man. Like to the long side, I'm always adapting. So, and that goes for time of day too. So there are times, man, where that first 30 minutes for me is going to be where the best moves are going to be to the long side and where I can get the best risk reward, but like, you know, a couple of weeks ago, the best moves. And even now we're seeing these fucking crazy midday moves again, where for me as a long, it kind of pays to be around going into into noon Eastern, you know what I mean? So, so it changes. It varied. I try to I try to work when I need to work, you know what I mean? I try to I try to be behind my desk trading when it pays for me to be here. And if not, I try to either teach. I've been doing a lot of just one-on-one teaching and just like mentoring people and working with people lately. But outside of that, you know, I'll get a workout in. I think that's super important. Yeah, so on Instagram, bro, you're looking stacked these days. Thank you, bro. Yeah, just been just once a day, bro. I try to get in there 30, 45 minutes, especially with the kids and shit and sitting here and you guys know, dude, we sit at our desks and shit and it's easy to let it slip. And and for me, I just try to work that in there. But really went for the trading, bro. I'm just I don't want to be here if it's paying me, bro. You know what I mean? And for me, the best window of volatility is always that first and last hour. So I'll hit the first hour. I hit power hour, bro. And I try to fuck off in between and not pay too much attention. If I'm sitting here all day, I'll trade some shit, man. I'll find. You know what I mean? So I'm a huge advocate. I'm a huge advocate of shutting it down. The only time I'm not doing that is when we are specifically seeing the best moves of the day happen midday. And the funny thing is I don't do well when that's the case. Anyways, so it's kind of one of those. I'd rather just for the most part wait till the plays come back to me in the mornings and and do other shit, man. I'm a huge advocate of when the market slow down, when your plays slow down, I size down, my trade frequency comes down. And I try to improve my life in other areas. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's great. And one other question that I had for you, because like we're all talking about for Tommy, you know, shorting and stuff like that. But like a lot of the guys who have been primarily shorting the past couple years and now turn to kind of like longing and stuff like that. So like, how do you feel about that? Because like you were the longing pioneer, really. Like the trainer who told me like, OK, like you can do it, you know, and it is possible. And then, you know, talk with Jack or like talk with other guys and like, you know, Connor, too, and like other people. And, you know, I'm like, holy shit, like you can. So how does that make you feel kind of like seeing some other traders that you kind of look up to in the beginning now starting to go along, you know, dude. Gretani's biggest trades, I think first and second biggest trades are longs now at this point in his career. But it's not that surprising. What's that? No, I don't care at all, dude. Honestly, I really, for me, there's no weight in it. I don't care what anyone fucking does. Ever, you know what I mean? Like, if you want to show it short, if you want to long, long, I really don't care. Um, that being said, it was cool. It was cool. There are two things with Gretani that. And when he mentions me in Trading Tickers 2, bro, I was like, because he mentions me someone and someone called me to tell me that. Like, whoa, dude, because Trading Tickers 1 was my Bible, bro. It was, it was my everything, dude. That's where I learned about price action and risk reward and watching him live trade, bro. That was the Bible for me, bro. You know, so when he mentioned that, that mentions me in the second one, that's pretty much the highlight of my fucking trading career is literally the fact that that happened, uh, just to put it in context for you. But, but no, dude, you know, it makes sense to me, you know, that there are times to the long side where the upside is so extreme. And to the short side, it's only a hundred percent, 99.99, you know, that you can take and, and granted, it's, it's a different game, but, but that did always attract me to the fact that I can wake up to 400 percent gap ups once in a while. You know what I mean? Uh, 300 percent gap ups, that kind of upside I don't think can be ignored. Um, but it can be two, you know what I mean? You find your lane, you figure out these, where you fit into these stocks, bro, and what fits your personality, and then you just do that. And you take it for all it's worth when it's there, and then you fucking pump the brakes when it's not there, because you don't know what to do with the rest of it. That's, that to me is the game, man. And, and, um, that's what I'm always trying to grow into. I'm still trying to get better, man, at pushing when I need to push. I've not been able to size up to the levels that I'd like to to the long side, and a huge part of that just has to do with knowing the game, bro, like knowing who I'm trading with and against and knowing how these stocks are going to be dumping and knowing that I don't want to be in them that long, you know what I'm saying? Um, so for me, the small cap, long game is smash and grab, but, but I figured out ways to, to get really good risk reward and to be able to kind of extend how long I can be in them. Um, that's, that's the big thing for me. So it makes sense, makes sense. Something that always interests me is what do traders do with their money outside trading? So how do you diversify your income outside the market? Is it real estate? Is it bonds? Is it just bearing it under the shed? What do you do? Um, no, some real estate in the past. Um, we're building right now. We're building a home and we're doing some other stuff. Um, as a family man, a lot of it's just my kids, dude, you know, I have a couple accounts for them. I'm starting to put stuff away for, uh, for my kids. Um, some longer term investment ideas and stuff like that as well. I'm looking into a lot of things, bro. You know, I'm looking into all sorts of ways in the future to, to go ahead and, and I don't use all my capital to trade with, you know what I mean? So, so that's something that I'm always kind of working on, you know, I, but I'm not the kind of guy that has, uh, too many investments or too many things going on. I don't, I don't really buy much. Um, and for me, the game, the whole game is like I could, I could go any minute, you know, so I got a any day with four kids, bro, you know, I got to make sure that, um, I'm saving, can't be spending too much investing in, and I'm still right now figuring out the best, the best means of using that kind of additional cash, you know. So let's bring it back all the way to the roots, man. You know, you talked about where you came from, what you did, and the people that were there that supported you along the way to do it. And I think a lot of traders could resonate with that, with that. You had people that even at your worst, were there to lift you up and not to mention it was two incredibly strong women that stuck through you, stuck with it through all of this and stuck right by your side the whole time. How have they impacted your trading and how did you get to that level with them there? I mean, my mom, dude, she supported me, she's like that kind of go for your dreams kind of lady, little Korean woman. She's the one who was pushing me in soccer to succeed myself as well. But she was the one who was like, you know, facilitating it, getting extra trainers in the morning so I could do the extra work that I wanted to do and stuff like that. So she's amazing and has supported me throughout the journey. My wife, who was a little scared at first, bro, just because between between the drug addiction and then our first son being born, I had a small gambling problem, bro, for like four or five months where I was playing a shit ton of blackjack. Like I was, dude, I was playing blackjack and then slots, man. I was like a degenerate gambler, man. It's my I have a very addictive personality, if you can't tell. And and anything I get into, man, I and it gets my wheels going, I'm going to be. So I learned to count cards, you know, I was doing that whole deal, showing up, pretending like I didn't know who the dealer was and how to count, you know, look over here, but I'm counting all the shit, dude. I enjoyed that, you know. But sorry, one second. Freaking wife, bro. I was at the devil. OK. Anyways, but so she was a little skeptical, OK, but I explained to her what what I knew to be true, OK, which is that gambling is just it is way different than trading. There are there's such a fine line between the two, though, you know, I can I still today can gamble and trade same day, you know what I mean? And I tell my students this, like, are you gambling or all your trading? But but one of the main differences for me was the fact that I can find higher probability setups. And then even within those setups, when trades don't work, I am in control of how much I lose. That is the main difference to me between the gambling in the casino and gambling in the markets is that I'm not putting down 20 to lose or win 20 or win 30, I'm putting down 20 to potentially win 100 and I can cut if I'm down five, I can cut if I'm down three dollars, I can risk one dollar, you know what I mean? That control to me is was the main differentiating factor. I'm like, holy shit, I can cut it whenever I can lose two dollars when I will lose and I can win $10 when I win. That that made sense to me so much that I didn't scare myself away from trading, man. I understood the power of that and even to the I didn't understand anything at that time about trading, but from a mathematical standpoint and and the fact that I get to control that the problem is, is that no one controls it. You know what I mean? Like when you start trading, you just don't know how or where or when or what. So that became I didn't realize that was going to be the game of figuring out how do I how do I cut that while still having upside over and over and over again, which is still the game I play today, every day all day, you know? So what? What were the reactions my wife was as once I started making money, dude, she was cool. That's why that is what has been those reactions of, you know, those were the two people that saw you at your lowest and now that you're at your highest. What is their reactions been? Still supportive, man. I don't I don't talk to my wife too much about trading. I'm about to start teaching her actually. Sure, that I'm terribly figure who knows, man, if she can fall out, I'll quit, bro. I'll take the kids to school. I'll go golfing. I'll go fishing, bro. We're good to go. Turn her into a beast. Now she I'm super supportive, bro. You know, there's I can ask for better. I just couldn't and I am going to teach her in case something happens to me. Maybe she has the skill too, dude, you know what I mean? And it'd be a good thing for her to know anyway. So you'll probably be seeing some of her and that's cool. You know, I don't know why not. So why not get her on the pod and then we can get the other half of the story. Exactly. Yeah, you don't want that. Bro, I'm trying to give you as real as possible. We don't need her. Well, Roland, man, it's been incredibly inspiring, dude. I don't I, you know, some of these things I knew some of these things I didn't know just from hearing your stories from the past. And truthfully, thank you for being here and thank you for being so candid with us. And if there's anything we can do for you, brother, you always, you know, were to find us, you know, how to let us know, man. So thank you. Goes to show, bro, that even at your darkest days, you still have potential. Yes, there's anyone out there with those dark days. I mean, you could use Roland as a role model to be like, you know what, if he can do it, so can I. Yep. Truthfully. I can't agree, dude. Thank you guys for having me on. I've wanted to speak with all of you actually for quite a while. You know, we just kind of been in the same same circle for a long ass time, dude. So and myself, dude, when I say, you know, I don't know if it's an ego thing that we all kind of end up having a little bit once we get into this game, but I had a little ego to do this, dude. I had that going on for sure, bro, like, like, I didn't want to hear too much what other people had to say or do and like, fuck everyone, you know, I have something that works for me, but I've been reaching out to a lot of people, man. I've been talking to traders of all instruments lately. And it's just so cool, man. It's cool talking to the other side of my trades, you know, it's you know, like, specifically Alex, like, like, um, and this is what I try to tell people. I try to tell people where you are and that if you're making money, I need to be selling where he is. You know what I mean? And and he's going to be covering hopefully where I'm buying like that is the game guys, you know, and and everyone has this has that that wrong. They're on the other side always. That's why they're not becoming profitable because they can't get within the flow, bro. There's a flow of this shit, how it works, you know what I mean? Once you really understand that, it just becomes easier, man. You're not always battling, swimming upstream, buying into huge drops or shorting into fucking huge rips like, you know, I and and and a lot of people I work with understand that how can you have good trading psychology when that should happens every time you're buying or selling a stock, bro. You know, so so that's what I'll leave people with. You kind of have to find your own way, but no matter what you have to get in the flow, dude, of the markets, you can't battle them, you know, know where the shorts are. If you're short, know where the good longs are, you know, know where someone's going to be propping that shit, like know what happens in certain scenarios. And and that to me can provide so much edge just over your everyday fucker who's not thinking about this kind of stuff, you know, correct. Perfect. All right. Well, thank you, bro. Thank you for having me on, man. Perfect. Let's do it again. Cool.